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Who is Jackie Butler?!?!? (Knicks Aquire C Jackie Butler)
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diderotn
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2/28/2005  1:32 PM
Woww Nalod! that is pretty good...

Posted by Nalod:

I have no Idea if Jackie looking like this player or that player has any substance or not, but I just like the idea of being bold enough to give this kid a chance!

Isiah might be adding dollars, but he is willing unlike not just layden, but years of GM's not even giving the time of day to any possible youth. He might not pan out, but its not from trying. He is kicking ass in the CBA at 19, and if it can translate to the next level, thats great.

Now if this kid is a worthy projoct, then we can trade up using sweets as some bait, and use Mo T. as our tanking fodder until all the new kids are ready. Jackie can get some minutes.

But we got to let contracts die out!

Its not a plan, but its a methoed of achieving. We are not privy to what his plans are, and perhaps nothing is written in stone.

I'd rather have this kid than a Jamal Sampson who is not working hard at the NBA level. With this season left, and summer league, we can look at Jackie pretty good.

I am optomistic when IT does this kind of stuff. It might not yield anything, but it statistically increases our chances!
The true Knickabocker..........
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nyk4ever
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2/28/2005  1:36 PM
Posted by fishmike:

yea.. tearing up the CBA isnt much. Hell, Lavar Postel did that. But when you get cut from the SL roster and go to the CBA and become a top 5 scorer/rebounder/shot blocker in that league at 19 it show me something. It says your hungry and if the NBA doesnt want you your going to punish whoever you play against.

Very true and lets be honest, when you try and make a team like the Timberwolves who were poised to make it to the NBA finals this year, its not easy. I just want a chance to see this guy on the floor and see how he runs and whatnot. I'm very confident Isiah and Herb can keep this kids head screwed on straight too.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
diderotn
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2/28/2005  1:38 PM
Was he the same dude that KG had a fight with during training camp? because there was one young dude that purely dominated KG and as a result KG punched him....


Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by fishmike:

yea.. tearing up the CBA isnt much. Hell, Lavar Postel did that. But when you get cut from the SL roster and go to the CBA and become a top 5 scorer/rebounder/shot blocker in that league at 19 it show me something. It says your hungry and if the NBA doesnt want you your going to punish whoever you play against.

Very true and lets be honest, when you try and make a team like the Timberwolves who were poised to make it to the NBA finals this year, its not easy. I just want a chance to see this guy on the floor and see how he runs and whatnot. I'm very confident Isiah and Herb can keep this kids head screwed on straight too.
The true Knickabocker..........
nyk4ever
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2/28/2005  1:45 PM
Is that true Dido? I just tried searching for some news on that but I couldn't find anything that pitted Garnett and Jackie. Hey, if this kid has game and a poor attitude, I think that can be corrected. I can understand the T'Wolves not wanting to deal with that beucase lets face it, they had enough distractions on their team already at the beginning of this year with all the Sprewell stuff and a young 19 year old hothead I'm sure wasn't music to McHale's ears.

Anyone else know anything about what Dido is talking about?
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
fishmike
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2/28/2005  1:57 PM
no.. your thinking of Rick Reichert. He a 2nd rounder Minn drafted that went to play in Europe. He was back and the team worked him out with Garnett. The story goes that he made a nice move and dunked on KG who promptly punched him in the mouth for showing him up.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
diderotn
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2/28/2005  2:00 PM
Thanks Fish.

Posted by fishmike:

no.. your thinking of Rick Reichert. He a 2nd rounder Minn drafted that went to play in Europe. He was back and the team worked him out with Garnett. The story goes that he made a nice move and dunked on KG who promptly punched him in the mouth for showing him up.
The true Knickabocker..........
misterearl
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2/28/2005  2:16 PM
Nalod

A few years back I spent some time in Clarksdale, Mississippi during The
King Biscuit Blues Festival. My only point of reference for the state was
the notoriously low education stats and the omnipresent Confederate Flag. The University of Mississippi footballl halftime rally in 1956 where the governor proclaimed, "segregation now, Segregation forever..."

Cruising down the two lane highways surrounded by massive cotton
farms/plantations, Tractor-trailer shaped bales of raw cotton, spray-painted with cryptic specs and stacked in endless rows, ready for shipping North.

The music was non-stop and highlilghted by Bobby Blue Bland. What struck me
as much as the gutbucket vibe, were the numbers of physically imposing young
men walking the streets. I started to understand why Jackie Sherrill
developed a pipeline to untapped high school recruits who rspected his
courage to recruit in places most coaches dared not even visit.

Jackie Butler could be one of those rare, raw gems who receives a second
chance to get it right despite being sidetracked by a poor education, bad
advice from an agent and the desperate need to escape the most timelocked
part of The South.

There is no history of trouble on Butler's bio and that's a positive sign.
Provide him with a nuturing support system, plenty of NBA-calibre basketball
drills and allow his hard work and maturity to do the rest.

What do the Knicks have to lose?

How fierce is the fire in his belly?

Certainly, he could be as much a waste as Frederic Weis... but something
tells me that Butler has already more toughness in his left pinkie than the
adorable Frenchman.

You don't be walkin' the streets of Clarksdale MS at 3AM if you are a punk.


once a knick always a knick
Masterplan
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2/28/2005  2:18 PM
i'm really happy with the signing. it really is hit or miss with these HS big men, but where we are now there's no reason not to give it a shot. i liked dermarr johnson a lot last season, it was mostly a function of his position that we didn't hold on to him. whereas, at center we have a huge hole. even if jackie butler is no star, there'll be a place for him if he works for it. if enough of these young FA signings work out, then maybe IT and the rest of the management will figure we're better off letting the big money deals expire and using these cheap, hungry players for the same production at a fraction of the cost, with much higher potential and none of the opportunity cost.

[Edited by - Masterplan on 02/28/2005 14:20:37]
martin
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2/28/2005  2:48 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Nalod

A few years back I spent some time in Clarksdale, Mississippi during The
King Biscuit Blues Festival. My only point of reference for the state was
the notoriously low education stats and the omnipresent Confederate Flag. The University of Mississippi footballl halftime rally in 1956 where the governor proclaimed, "segregation now, Segregation forever..."

Cruising down the two lane highways surrounded by massive cotton
farms/plantations, Tractor-trailer shaped bales of raw cotton, spray-painted with cryptic specs and stacked in endless rows, ready for shipping North.

The music was non-stop and highlilghted by Bobby Blue Bland. What struck me
as much as the gutbucket vibe, were the numbers of physically imposing young
men walking the streets. I started to understand why Jackie Sherrill
developed a pipeline to untapped high school recruits who rspected his
courage to recruit in places most coaches dared not even visit.

Jackie Butler could be one of those rare, raw gems who receives a second
chance to get it right despite being sidetracked by a poor education, bad
advice from an agent and the desperate need to escape the most timelocked
part of The South.

There is no history of trouble on Butler's bio and that's a positive sign.
Provide him with a nuturing support system, plenty of NBA-calibre basketball
drills and allow his hard work and maturity to do the rest.

What do the Knicks have to lose?

How fierce is the fire in his belly?

Certainly, he could be as much a waste as Frederic Weis... but something
tells me that Butler has already more toughness in his left pinkie than the
adorable Frenchman.

You don't be walkin' the streets of Clarksdale MS at 3AM if you are a punk.

wow, nice backdrop to your post. I like it. thanks.
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knixphan
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2/28/2005  2:50 PM
I'm with Earl - in the Starks tradition, Butler could be a great 'out-of-nowhere' find... And we have NOTHING to lose.

(My condolences on the Mississippi experience, by the way...I've had some crazy experiences on the wrong side of the Mason-Dix myself...In places where they couldn't even pronounce Thelonious, much less listen to him)
"I will dress in bright and cheery colors, and so throw my enemies into confusion."
misterearl
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2/28/2005  3:20 PM
"My condolences on the Mississippi experience, by the way.."

knixphan - no condolences required.

The experience down in Clarksdale MS was enlightening, entertaining and educational.... the confederate flagn

I never saw that much cotton in one place

That stuff could nake a lot of fancy clothes

Here's hoping Jackie gets his groove on within three years
once a knick always a knick
Bonn1997
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2/28/2005  3:33 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by simrud:

If you guys feel good about this team, then there is nothing I can do to convnince you otherwise.

I'm just being realistic, you want to call that hating, whatever, not like I give a damn about the opinions of the likes of RVhoss, dido or bonn. It is suprising to see fishmike and guns be such homers, but I guess denail is one way to look at the mess that this team is.

Just ask yourselfs, maybe there is a reason this team, made of practically only IT's playes is so bad.

Maybe there is a reason Penny, TT, KT, Rose, and Mo Taylor are all here with huge money owed to them.

Maybe there is a reason we keep trading away picks every year. Do you realize that considering we traded a 2nd round pick to get Mohammed, we essentially traded two high 2nd rounders for two low 1st ronders, virutally the same picks?

But then again, if you say anything negative about this great team, you are a hater.

If being a hater means actually thinking for yourself, and not eating up all the drivel IT spews out, then hater I shall be.




Simrud, I understand do some degree what you are saying. There has been sone double-talk, some things that dont make sense. for examples, isiah when he was first hired, he basically said we were not going to rebuild through the draft, we went 29-24 added Craw, started 16-13, and then we are rebuilding through the draft.

Then we make a nice deal for Malik and two picks, but we then make a move for taylor and he cant even play, took on 14mm and gave them a pick for the trouble. So I can see where fans would see contradiction, like i do. Im just trying to be honest by syaing I think we shouldve waited on that Taylor thing and gone into offseason with more options open.

But, you have to take into account that ultimatley, isiah has also stocked us up with marbury Ariza and Craw. hes been pro-active trying to find other young players--i.e Johnson and now Butler who I feel will be a Knick for a LONg time, I feel like we just got a first round pick for nothing there. I think Malik is a solid pick because you need a COMBINATION of vets with younger players to win. I think Malik will show he is actually just as good or better of a player than nazr.
Wow; you're giving Isiah a bit of credit. I'm shocked and impressed!

Regarding the inconsistent messages about rebuilding through the draft: I still don't think Isiah plans to rebuild through the draft. My hunch is that he views the 4 1st round picks (and about $80 mil in expiring contracts over the next 2 years) as trade assets first and as player to draft for our team second (only if no good trade can be worked out).
fishmike
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2/28/2005  3:40 PM
the more I think about Malik the more I like it. JYD and Malik... heck KT also are all stop gap player for me, but they are good vets who will teach young guys how to play the right way. Listen to JYD and Rose talk. They are greatfull to be NBA players and understant what they do is a gift. They play with infectious enthusiasm every minute they are on the floor. We arent winning a title with a frontcourt built around them but they are exactly the kind of vets you want your young guys growing around.

I know nothing about Butler but his story is a good one. When James Lang didnt make the cut he vanished. When Jackie Butler didnt make the cut he went to the CBA a 19 year old kid and beat up on the kind of guys that would probably call him "boy"

Most of all I like that guys like this are on Isiah's radar. Maybe thats whats most exciting, knowing that every rock will be unturned looking for the next Ben Wallace or Jermaine Oneil
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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2/28/2005  3:51 PM
Posted by fishmike:

the more I think about Malik the more I like it. JYD and Malik... heck KT also are all stop gap player for me, but they are good vets who will teach young guys how to play the right way.

well that's the key here. we need to GET those young guys to learn from them about professionalism. jackie butler is a step in the right direction. i so wish we traded for a ruben patterson instead of a mo taylor. just having multiple defenders makes playing defense contagious. if marbury and crawford see a front court of ruben, rose, kt bustin their ass on defense, then it may rub off on them also.
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2/28/2005  3:53 PM
I think Brad Miller is rare but important example of how a guy with limited raw athletic ability can still become an all-star in the NBA with smarts, toughness, and brute force.

Ultimately, he's blessed with a strong basketball IQ... and enough refined finesse skills to overcome his average physical talents. He's very much like a bigger, taller, smarter, better version of Charles Oakley.

Back to Butler--- I'm excited to see what he can do. The scouting report compared him to Antonio Davis... wouldn't that be sweet.
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
VDesai
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2/28/2005  4:31 PM
I like this Butler move and I like it a lot actually. Rarely can you sign players of the street that are 19 years old and talented. He was only available because he got bad advice about going into the draft from High School. Give him 2 years at a top SEC school or wherever he was headed, and he'd likely get a shot to be a first round draft pick. But getting him at 19 now is like having had two 2nd rounders in this past year's draft.

We've got him untill the end of the season, and we know at the very least, Aguirre will have some time to work with him to refine his offensive game, which will probably boost up his development considerably. If Aguirre can take a 27 year old with a limited developmental ceiling and teach him a few post moves and some shooting touch, he can do the same with a 19 year old with a much greater ceiling.

I hope this guy buys into defense too (where we don't see to have the developmental coaches). He seems to have good size/strength for his age and can rebound.
MaTT4281
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2/28/2005  4:43 PM
I really want to see Butler play, or atleast see him in practice. It's too bad they don't tape those open practices to put on MSG or something.
VDesai
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2/28/2005  4:45 PM
Posted by MaTT4281:

I really want to see Butler play, or atleast see him in practice. It's too bad they don't tape those open practices to put on MSG or something.

I'm sure he'll be on Knicks Life All Ball at some point. There's only so many players to do shows on...
metra
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2/28/2005  5:03 PM
Wow. Stop giving simrud so much s**t. There was so much Isiah praising and foolish optimism that a negative voice had to be heard. All he said was "Sorry guys, he probably aint gonna be an all-star." I agree, he's prob just gonna be Demarr Johnson.

But instead of saying "Just give him a chance," the response to simrud was more like "STFU you hater." Thats a little irrational.

In fact, thinking that Butler will play a quarter a game might be irrational. Isiahs taking chances, I love it. Youve gotta be happy when the Knicks have a GM that tries. But you cant orgasm over every insignificant move. At least i cant. The team has been sucking big time and theres no reason to think picking up an athletic, raw, and possibly lazy CBA player will help the team now. You also cannot be happy when Isiah highers fat, expensive friends (Mo).

Its good to be optimistic, but at some point it gets disgusting. Theres no reason to be so cheerful this season. I say I'm a realist. Youll say im a hater/pessimist/cynic/whatever. There has been no team chemistry. Marbury gets great stat lines but the teams not winning. Thats the point. No ones winning. Just like Ariza's quote on the front page about stats: "If you didnt win, career highs dont matter."

And if this 2 game streak does pay out, then its another bad season. Like many have mentioned, this season needs to be blown. A playoff run isnt good. We'll lose in the first round and we'll have no good draft picks. If all of you are looking for these long term solutions then you definitely shouldnt be rooting for the Knicks right now.

Oh, and speaking of salary and someone mentioned the Atl. Hawks - its one thing if the Knicks were the Yankees, its another if they were the Knicks. I dunno much about baseball, but theres a reason why the Yanks are called the Evil Empire. They have the highest salary and they WIN. They dominate (ok not last year, i dont care, but they still get somewhere). They make smart moves with the money.

And then theres the Knicks. Highest salary, complete a** team. Thats pathetic. Thats not evil empire. Thats the work of bad management and overpaid players. The knicks salary is an embarassment because it makes the whole team a laughing stock.

I dont think it would be bad if the Knicks cut their salary or at least did something useful with it. Its easy, just dont trade for the Mo Taylor's out there. I dont care about the 200,000 Butler projects, its the Taylors that are killing us and making fools of the entire organization.

[Edited by - metra on 02/28/2005 17:04:34]

[Edited by - metra on 02/28/2005 17:05:31]

[Edited by - metra on 02/28/2005 17:16:36]

[Edited by - metra on 02/28/2005 17:42:11]
Pharzeone
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2/28/2005  5:30 PM
Posted by simrud:

If you guys feel good about this team, then there is nothing I can do to convnince you otherwise.

I'm just being realistic, you want to call that hating, whatever, not like I give a damn about the opinions of the likes of RVhoss, dido or bonn. It is suprising to see fishmike and guns be such homers, but I guess denail is one way to look at the mess that this team is.

Just ask yourselfs, maybe there is a reason this team, made of practically only IT's playes is so bad.

Maybe there is a reason Penny, TT, KT, Rose, and Mo Taylor are all here with huge money owed to them.

Maybe there is a reason we keep trading away picks every year. Do you realize that considering we traded a 2nd round pick to get Mohammed, we essentially traded two high 2nd rounders for two low 1st ronders, virutally the same picks?

But then again, if you say anything negative about this great team, you are a hater.

If being a hater means actually thinking for yourself, and not eating up all the drivel IT spews out, then hater I shall be.

I noticed you left Houston out of your equation of big money players not playing well. He didn't resign him to a $100 million contract. Also, KT is Isiah's signing? All he did was resigned him. At the time it was considered a reasonable contract. Something is fishy. You also didn't mentioned Jamal Crawford, I guess he was a bad signing. Isiah, knew/and knows Houston is done.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
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