TripleThreat wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:If I understand the cap regs and contract structure keeping Mo D has nothing to do with whether we keep Mitch or Shamet. We can keep Mitch and Shamet and we can offer them fair value. However, Mo because he was a second round pick who we offered a one year deal, is limited by contract as to how much we can offer him. Another team I believe can offer him more then we will be allowed to offer him. Now, would MoD seek out top dollar or take what we can offer him fairly to develop behind OG and Hart and be on a championship team that drafted him ? Will another team try offer him big money ? I seem to think he will remain for the environment. I am still optimistic about Dadiet and maybe he will come back more aggressive on offense and improve on defense. Anyone for summer league this year ?

OK, I took a look at the changes in the more current CBA on 2nd round picks. It's actually an exception ( that's an interesting wrinkle since it starts to fuzz the line with a later first round pick and an early 2nd, the NBPA must have conceded something for that to happen) , so it naturally locks out using a portion of the Tax Payers MLE to pay Diawara. Interesting.

And the exception for 2nd round picks is locked out because Diawara signed an Exhibit 10 deal. ( That provision actually makes more sense)

Yes, now this defaults to an Arenas Rule situation. Other teams can offer Diawara up to the full MLE, but the Knicks have a right to match. However it's unlikely another team would offer that much ( as Diawara looked good, he's also still mostly unproven) Now Diawara can help himself back to the Knicks, if he wants that, by only signing an offer he knows they will match and keep them under the 2nd Apron. From the perspective of Diawara's agent, he'll contend that while Diawara is not worth the full MLE, he is worth somewhere approximate to a mid to late first round picks slotting. More towards late. Obviously Knicks want less and Diawara wants more, so in the middle is probably fair.

However this team cannot keep all of Diawara, MRob and Shamet and stay under the 2nd Apron. This goes beyond the tax implications ( Dolan doesn't care about the money at this point), going above the 2nd Apron effectively locks the team out of practical trades, using its Annual Cash Allotment and prevents picking up mid season buyouts from other teams. For a chance at a repeat, you need some flexibility. The Veterans Minimum reduces it's value against the Apron to the salary slotting of a 2nd year player. Even if the player has more actual tenure than that. There are going to be value add type players available for the Veterans Minimum. Under the 2nd Apron, the Knicks will also still have the tax payers MLE too.

I just don't see it. I appreciate what MRob has done for this team over time, and what Shamet did this season, but I just don't see keeping them as worth the tradeoffs implied.

I thought the general sense was that the Knicks will go over the 2nd apron for 2 years. We shall see pretty quickly.

TripleThreat wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:If I understand the cap regs and contract structure keeping Mo D has nothing to do with whether we keep Mitch or Shamet. We can keep Mitch and Shamet and we can offer them fair value. However, Mo because he was a second round pick who we offered a one year deal, is limited by contract as to how much we can offer him. Another team I believe can offer him more then we will be allowed to offer him. Now, would MoD seek out top dollar or take what we can offer him fairly to develop behind OG and Hart and be on a championship team that drafted him ? Will another team try offer him big money ? I seem to think he will remain for the environment. I am still optimistic about Dadiet and maybe he will come back more aggressive on offense and improve on defense. Anyone for summer league this year ?

OK, I took a look at the changes in the more current CBA on 2nd round picks. It's actually an exception ( that's an interesting wrinkle since it starts to fuzz the line with a later first round pick and an early 2nd, the NBPA must have conceded something for that to happen) , so it naturally locks out using a portion of the Tax Payers MLE to pay Diawara. Interesting.

And the exception for 2nd round picks is locked out because Diawara signed an Exhibit 10 deal. ( That provision actually makes more sense)

Yes, now this defaults to an Arenas Rule situation. Other teams can offer Diawara up to the full MLE, but the Knicks have a right to match. However it's unlikely another team would offer that much ( as Diawara looked good, he's also still mostly unproven) Now Diawara can help himself back to the Knicks, if he wants that, by only signing an offer he knows they will match and keep them under the 2nd Apron. From the perspective of Diawara's agent, he'll contend that while Diawara is not worth the full MLE, he is worth somewhere approximate to a mid to late first round picks slotting. More towards late. Obviously Knicks want less and Diawara wants more, so in the middle is probably fair.

However this team cannot keep all of Diawara, MRob and Shamet and stay under the 2nd Apron. This goes beyond the tax implications ( Dolan doesn't care about the money at this point), going above the 2nd Apron effectively locks the team out of practical trades, using its Annual Cash Allotment and prevents picking up mid season buyouts from other teams. For a chance at a repeat, you need some flexibility. The Veterans Minimum reduces it's value against the Apron to the salary slotting of a 2nd year player. Even if the player has more actual tenure than that. There are going to be value add type players available for the Veterans Minimum. Under the 2nd Apron, the Knicks will also still have the tax payers MLE too.

I just don't see it. I appreciate what MRob has done for this team over time, and what Shamet did this season, but I just don't see keeping them as worth the tradeoffs implied.

Gosh the more I think about it I think Mitch walks strictly because of the cap implications if we keep him … he’s going to get a bag, and if we match it will lock us in and we will loose MO and Shamet . We really can’t afford to lose those guys . But I also worry can we afford to lose Mitch and his elite defense and rebounding. He is the X factor when we play bigger teams like Cleveland. Mitch owns Allen . There’s a reason teams also hack a Mitch, it’s to get him out of the game… because Mitch is a problem for opposing teams to successfully operate their offense. and he gives us multiple opportunities on offense.

Can we get an offensive rebounding machine in the draft at 24 that can play elite defense?

It’s kinda sad as Mitch was here for it all, And he finally had a somewhat healthy season. And he sealed the finals with his signature offensive board .

I guess you have to look at it as who’s more important to this team to repeat next year Mitch, Shamet, or Mo

And let’s be honest it’s between Mitch and Shamet . As much as I love Mo we don’t know how he’ll develop. He came in hot but faded before he lost his minutes. Now I think sky is the limit for mo he could turn into a point forward that’s a defensive stud.

By signing Mo do we just say good bye to Shamet .

Personally I want to run it back to a T if it’s possible.

BlueKnickers wrote:

Rookie wrote:If Kolek could handle the pressure of bigger stronger guards he would be playing. Heck, even Deuce disappeared in the playoffs. If our measure is the playoffs, neither make the team even though they both helped us get to the playoffs

Again, this is a manufactured narrative based on only a few instances where Kolek struggled against full-court pressure. It is not the norm, yet a few of you harp on it as if it was a chronic issue when it most definitely was not. He has a good handle, not a sub-par handle.

His ability to bring the ball up the court was just fine most of the time and it was as good or better than how Brunson handles the same pressure.

The only legitimate knock against Kolek is he's a small defender who will get exploited on defense sometimes.

I thought Kolek looked good when I was watching. But the Knicks saw something different bc they traded for Alvarado and Kolek hasn’t seen a meaningful moment since..

PatCummings wrote:

martin wrote:

PatCummings wrote:

BlueKnickers wrote:

PatCummings wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:Sochan is a very interesting player. Maybe we are not giving him the credit for being key in how we managed wemby.
Cuz knicks did. Perhaps a bit of insight to his tendancies not caught on tape but in practice?
curious if he sticks. Perhaps he is a back up project if Diawra bolts? Or, sloted to be OG's understudy?
Sochan as we discussed week or so ago was Pop's point forward experiemnt that did not work.

McCullar? I kind of get the fan support but can just as easliy see him being released? If no clear role for him here maybe he wants to leave for an other opportunity if such exists. We drafting? We trading the picks up? Down?

The Knicks could have released McCullar any time over the past 2 years but instead chose to help him back from a major bone bruise knee injury after drafting him and then also gave him super ample opportunity in the GLeague. I could be 100% wrong on this guess but I think the Knicks regard him high on their Keep list.

POA defender that is a legit 6'5+, so bigger than Dylan Harper and same size as Stephen Castle but more slithery than strong than those guys. He is a secondary ball handler and facilitator (although both need to be proved at the NBA level), much much better than Deuce. His close to basket and mid range is solid and he has a lot to prove from distance.

In the GLeague, they often gave him the ball as a PG and let him do whatever, pass, shoot, TO and just let him go. Same with Dadiet to a lesser degree. Huk I think dominated his times in the GLeague so much that it wasn't really worthwhile (similar to Kolek) but I could be wrong on that one.

Knicks IMO will do a min deal with him and he'll overplay that contract by a lot.

Totally agree on McCullar. He will get a chance to be part of the rotation and I hope he succeeds. The point forward part of his game would be helpful.

Think of picking McCullar as similar to Denver when they drafted Michael Porter Jr. who was at one point the top prospect in the nation, but who dropped because he would require spinal surgery. It was considered a roll of the dice at that time and Denver ended up with a starter for multiple years.

McCullar is not that much different in terms of logic behind drafting him. He was considered either the best or close to the best defensive player in the nation with some offensive ability. His bone bruise was a multi-year injury that involved just rehabbing his first year as a Knick and then playing again this year, some off the bench, some in G League.

The biggest differences in this analogy is Porter had less obstacles to claiming a starter position in Denver and he was considered as primarily an offensive talent. McCullar's path to a starting role would either be next to Brunson instead of Hart or replacing Bridges, neither of which is likely next season. He is a swing player, a guard with good size, good strength and excellent lateral mobility who can slide over to SF, but who looks to play primarily as a backup combo guard.

His trajectory into a rotation spot was always going to be 3 years based on his rehab cycle. He got some playing time this year and showed a legitimately better handle than any of our bench guards, much better passing skills and floor vision than any of our bench guards plus an ability to score for real.

The guy is a legit baller with size with better skills than any other bench guards other than maybe Shamet, but he's still a much better floor general than Shamet anyway.

Kolek and McCullar are whom need to take over the guard minutes next season. You'll get superior orchestration plus elite defense from McCullar who will win games for you defensively, mark my words.

I’m concerned about Kolek. Drafted as a senior and the Knicks didn’t trust him enough to be the backup for us in his second year. We traded for a very avg undersized PG bc he can dribble and guys can’t blow past him. Kolek’s passing and shooting were very good but the Knicks determined it wasn’t good enough to offset his weaknesses

He improved from Y1 to Y2. Hopefully there’s more growth in Y3. But it’s hard to feel confident that the Knicks will play him in a big game

I had a slightly different take on what transpired for the Knicks regarding guys like Kolek and Mo over the course of the season. The Knicks had to decide whether they wanted to roll with the young kids or not for playoffs, black and white decision time. And they chose Not to and just let them take this last portion of the playoff run in. Not that either wasn't in future plans, they just were not really to be in the mix for a Championship run and the coaching staff chose to ride GTA, Clarkson and had enough minutes at the wing spots to go around.

Some of the Spurs young players showed their inexperience at times with talent pulling them along.

So, more about general experience readiness for playoffs for vets with a known 10 man rotation (Mitch Deuce GTA Clarkson Shamet) than future prospects for the young guys.

XMas game, Cup game, Kolek was a gamer. He and Mo got their weaknesses, IMO they'll be in the rotation next year, give or take.

I hope you’re right. If Kolek wasn’t benched and he played well for us in the playoffs, I’d feel great about him. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out!

You just never know about how some guys will show up in the moment. Witness the highs of Deuce and Shamet and what transpired in the Finals. That's the pressure valve coaches didn't want for young kids I guess.

Deuce
Clarkson
Hukporti

Jose can stay but I'd prefer a bench that looks like this for our 6th - 11th men:

Dynamic combo guard (Deuce/Clarkson replacement) / Landry / Diawara / Mitch

Jose / drafted PF/C (Hukporti replacement)

DLeethal wrote:IMO these guys should be replaced / upgraded. The first pains me to say more than any.

Deuce
Clarkson
Hukporti

Jose can stay but I'd prefer a bench that looks like this for our 6th - 11th men:

Dynamic combo guard (Deuce/Clarkson replacement) / Landry / Diawara / Mitch

Jose / drafted PF/C (Hukporti replacement)

This makes a ton of sense

But it’ll take a minor miracle for us to be able to resign Diawara, Shamet and Mitch - let alone have $ to add a dynamic combo guard via FA

Could McCullar be that combo guard? Can Kolek step up?

Can we trade Deuce and 31 to trade up for someone like Okorie? He’s a dynamic scoring PG. only 6’1” but has a 6’8” wingspan. He’s being mocked to fall in this really deep PG draft. But He’s 19 and might be more of a future rotation piece.

At 24 we can draft Zuby as that PF/C and he’d be ready to contribute day 1

fitzfarm wrote:Can we get an offensive rebounding machine in the draft at 24 that can play elite defense?

It's a good question you are asking, and I believe technomaster's answer is on the spot. It's dangerous and quite a high risk for self implosion to ask a rookie to take on that kind of role.

( On an aside, I've always found technomaster's analysis to be very good, I'm not quite sure why his posts never got more love here. But I appreciate them)

Young pivots also get the brunt end of ref calls. Even if you play cleanly and have the game of your life in the playoffs as a rookie big, you are going to get jobbed by the refs. It's also a lot to ask a rookie to call out defensive sets and sometimes quarterback the defense overall. There's a lot of nuance to rim protection and most incoming pivots don't have a refined three point shot yet.

In a situation where team wants to repeat for a championship, you go for cost certainty as much as possible. Rookies don't give you that. On the plus side, depth in the NBA overall has never been better than in the current era. Also more young players are better prepared to take back of rotation roles in the NBA now. The curve is still steep, but the training methodology at lower levels and the opportunities for camps/coaching/film, etc are much more expansive than in the past.

There is also usually an inverse relationship with offensive rebounding from a pivot and effective rim protection. I'm not saying offensive rebounds are not important, but I am saying they aren't exactly a monolith in terms of what kind tend to matter more or less.

Player development for any draftee should be at the bottom of the list of priorities in a "repeat" pathway IMHO.

When I talk about "cost certainty", look at Cam Thomas. At this point, you know what he do at the NBA level. You also know what he cannot do. You aren't in a position to eat his growing pains or face uncertainty about it. The question is whether you can weaponize what he can do for you, at the right circumstance and right price.

The thing with MRob is you have to ask the question on what if KAT gets hurt. MRob creates more questions than answers ( in part because it accelerates more pressure on Brunson, who needs more relief) . For a high paid backup, that's not what you are looking for out that situation.

To be fair, it is however a gamble. A matchup might exist in the playoffs next year where MRob is critical. But how likely is that? How likely is he himself going to get hurt again?

martin wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:If I understand the cap regs and contract structure keeping Mo D has nothing to do with whether we keep Mitch or Shamet. We can keep Mitch and Shamet and we can offer them fair value. However, Mo because he was a second round pick who we offered a one year deal, is limited by contract as to how much we can offer him. Another team I believe can offer him more then we will be allowed to offer him. Now, would MoD seek out top dollar or take what we can offer him fairly to develop behind OG and Hart and be on a championship team that drafted him ? Will another team try offer him big money ? I seem to think he will remain for the environment. I am still optimistic about Dadiet and maybe he will come back more aggressive on offense and improve on defense. Anyone for summer league this year ?

OK, I took a look at the changes in the more current CBA on 2nd round picks. It's actually an exception ( that's an interesting wrinkle since it starts to fuzz the line with a later first round pick and an early 2nd, the NBPA must have conceded something for that to happen) , so it naturally locks out using a portion of the Tax Payers MLE to pay Diawara. Interesting.

And the exception for 2nd round picks is locked out because Diawara signed an Exhibit 10 deal. ( That provision actually makes more sense)

Yes, now this defaults to an Arenas Rule situation. Other teams can offer Diawara up to the full MLE, but the Knicks have a right to match. However it's unlikely another team would offer that much ( as Diawara looked good, he's also still mostly unproven) Now Diawara can help himself back to the Knicks, if he wants that, by only signing an offer he knows they will match and keep them under the 2nd Apron. From the perspective of Diawara's agent, he'll contend that while Diawara is not worth the full MLE, he is worth somewhere approximate to a mid to late first round picks slotting. More towards late. Obviously Knicks want less and Diawara wants more, so in the middle is probably fair.

However this team cannot keep all of Diawara, MRob and Shamet and stay under the 2nd Apron. This goes beyond the tax implications ( Dolan doesn't care about the money at this point), going above the 2nd Apron effectively locks the team out of practical trades, using its Annual Cash Allotment and prevents picking up mid season buyouts from other teams. For a chance at a repeat, you need some flexibility. The Veterans Minimum reduces it's value against the Apron to the salary slotting of a 2nd year player. Even if the player has more actual tenure than that. There are going to be value add type players available for the Veterans Minimum. Under the 2nd Apron, the Knicks will also still have the tax payers MLE too.

I just don't see it. I appreciate what MRob has done for this team over time, and what Shamet did this season, but I just don't see keeping them as worth the tradeoffs implied.

I thought the general sense was that the Knicks will go over the 2nd apron for 2 years. We shall see pretty quickly.

Depends what they do this offseason. If they only sign the first round pick, resign Mo and make a couple low level but helpful signings for bench guys they can be under second apron next season.

aggo wrote:Mikal for walker Kessler

Kessler is RFA this year. Could we pry him away? Would he come off the bench in Mitch's role? Will they command about the same money?

aggo wrote:

Panos wrote:

aggo wrote:Mikal for walker Kessler

Kessler is RFA this year. Could we pry him away? Would he come off the bench in Mitch's role? Will they command about the same money?

give him 35m/yr

start kat at 4
Kessler at 5. bc he can also shoot 3s a lil

its killing 3 birds with 1 stone. you increase your positional versatility, maintain 5 out, and increase your existing defensive strategy of protecting the paint > protecting the 3pt line.

draft zuby, keep Ariel, let someone else pay mitch. front court depth solidified.

Accepting a sign and trade would hard cap us, if I understand correctly.

Philc1 wrote:We’re trading for DDV. I dunno what but we’re trading for him.

Its been written here a few times: DDV has a torn achilles. He won't play next season.