EwingsGlass wrote:

Nalod wrote:Its not what Ainge wants. Its how important is Kessler to us for our objectives. If he is the missing piece then Knicks pay what he is worth to us.
For a few years we been adding to the war chest for this moment. We spend big on Mikal, and perhaps we now have just a bit more to go.
If Kolek is thought to step over Duece then he is expendable. Is Deuce worth a mid-late 1st pick for a team that needs him now? is that what Ainge wants?
Yeah, I do this. Its not about market value, its knicks value and if our FO thinks we need Kessler than we pay. If I know this, Ainge knows this and he understand not all teams will pay. Its not that he is stupid greedy, he is being smart.

I think most of this is wrong.

I gave it a re-read and I think I just disagree with some of the assumptions but that does not mean the analysis is flawed. Mere examples that I would choose differently.

I tend to think we are the market for Kessler. I think Utah has Kessler in Summer League trying to expand that market. But I’d hold pretty tight. That said, as you say, if the FO believes he is the one, well, they have the ability to pull that trigger. Can’t really disagree.

With Deuce, I don’t know that Kolek has jumped Deuce. That’s not really your point. You say if he has, then he is expendable. Basically true, I just don’t think that occurred. Or that Kolek is a necessary component to trade Deuce or not. Your point is that he may be a trade chip. Can’t really argue that either.

You could simplify that if the Knicks think Deuce is less valuable to us than another Center, they should trade Deuce for a Center if the other team is willing.

I saw it as Kessler is more valuable than Deuce, and I don’t really agree with that. I could see Utah waiving Kessler for the roster slot after Summer League cause they have too many PF/Cs and need to deal. I think Kessler is great for us, but don’t see a ton of market elsewhere. He is flawed, but in a Thibs favorable way.

I think we give up 2 seconds and the rights to Sergio Llull to keep him off the waiver wire and maintain his bird rights intact.

EwingsGlass wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Nalod wrote:Its not what Ainge wants. Its how important is Kessler to us for our objectives. If he is the missing piece then Knicks pay what he is worth to us.
For a few years we been adding to the war chest for this moment. We spend big on Mikal, and perhaps we now have just a bit more to go.
If Kolek is thought to step over Duece then he is expendable. Is Deuce worth a mid-late 1st pick for a team that needs him now? is that what Ainge wants?
Yeah, I do this. Its not about market value, its knicks value and if our FO thinks we need Kessler than we pay. If I know this, Ainge knows this and he understand not all teams will pay. Its not that he is stupid greedy, he is being smart.

I think most of this is wrong.

I gave it a re-read and I think I just disagree with some of the assumptions but that does not mean the analysis is flawed. Mere examples that I would choose differently.

I tend to think we are the market for Kessler. I think Utah has Kessler in Summer League trying to expand that market. But I’d hold pretty tight. That said, as you say, if the FO believes he is the one, well, they have the ability to pull that trigger. Can’t really disagree.

With Deuce, I don’t know that Kolek has jumped Deuce. That’s not really your point. You say if he has, then he is expendable. Basically true, I just don’t think that occurred. Or that Kolek is a necessary component to trade Deuce or not. Your point is that he may be a trade chip. Can’t really argue that either.

You could simplify that if the Knicks think Deuce is less valuable to us than another Center, they should trade Deuce for a Center if the other team is willing.

I saw it as Kessler is more valuable than Deuce, and I don’t really agree with that. I could see Utah waiving Kessler for the roster slot after Summer League cause they have too many PF/Cs and need to deal. I think Kessler is great for us, but don’t see a ton of market elsewhere. He is flawed, but in a Thibs favorable way.

I think we give up 2 seconds and the rights to Sergio Llull to keep him off the waiver wire and maintain his bird rights intact.

I think we do agree on most. Writing skills perhaps don't allow fullness you described. It would be Deuce and a first for Kessler. That I agree. Thus your valuation is accurate, Kessler is more valuable than Deuce. Ainge does not need to trade him as much as we need him as a back up and perhaps successor to Mitch.
Other than growing a war chest I don't understand Ainge trading Kessler, and I don't have to know.

stillafan wrote:As far as Kessler you have to look at history. Leon thought he had ainge because no one else was in the game, not till clev came in and DM was gone. IMO what leon should do is make a final take it or leave it offer and put a deadline to it. Now I would probably go get a third team involved to get a late first for duece, lets face it he's not getting playing time unless there is an injury. We have Dadiet low contract to throw out them and Sim's. I'd do that because kessler's value to this team as a backup and possible starter for games Mitch could miss is way more important than all three players. We also have the rights to Rokas. make the offer, put a final date, if ainge don't meet it, move on, so make the date soon lol...

Leon is not in the position to do that, Ainge has prospects and a long timeline so doing that type of offer gains you nothing. Ainge is in the feel out process, thus all the reports. Ainge is creating his market right now.

What you are talking about doing is what Minny did. Not good strategy unless that is your exactly plan.

The Knicks make adult trades, not the one you are talking about.

Presti has done a great job drafting outside of Chet, who was a no brainer for them.

Rookie wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Nalod wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Nalod wrote:Its not what Ainge wants. Its how important is Kessler to us for our objectives. If he is the missing piece then Knicks pay what he is worth to us.
For a few years we been adding to the war chest for this moment. We spend big on Mikal, and perhaps we now have just a bit more to go.
If Kolek is thought to step over Duece then he is expendable. Is Deuce worth a mid-late 1st pick for a team that needs him now? is that what Ainge wants?
Yeah, I do this. Its not about market value, its knicks value and if our FO thinks we need Kessler than we pay. If I know this, Ainge knows this and he understand not all teams will pay. Its not that he is stupid greedy, he is being smart.

I think most of this is wrong.

I gave it a re-read and I think I just disagree with some of the assumptions but that does not mean the analysis is flawed. Mere examples that I would choose differently.

I tend to think we are the market for Kessler. I think Utah has Kessler in Summer League trying to expand that market. But I’d hold pretty tight. That said, as you say, if the FO believes he is the one, well, they have the ability to pull that trigger. Can’t really disagree.

With Deuce, I don’t know that Kolek has jumped Deuce. That’s not really your point. You say if he has, then he is expendable. Basically true, I just don’t think that occurred. Or that Kolek is a necessary component to trade Deuce or not. Your point is that he may be a trade chip. Can’t really argue that either.

You could simplify that if the Knicks think Deuce is less valuable to us than another Center, they should trade Deuce for a Center if the other team is willing.

I saw it as Kessler is more valuable than Deuce, and I don’t really agree with that. I could see Utah waiving Kessler for the roster slot after Summer League cause they have too many PF/Cs and need to deal. I think Kessler is great for us, but don’t see a ton of market elsewhere. He is flawed, but in a Thibs favorable way.

I think we give up 2 seconds and the rights to Sergio Llull to keep him off the waiver wire and maintain his bird rights intact.

I think we do agree on most. Writing skills perhaps don't allow fullness you described. It would be Deuce and a first for Kessler. That I agree. Thus your valuation is accurate, Kessler is more valuable than Deuce. Ainge does not need to trade him as much as we need him as a back up and perhaps successor to Mitch.
Other than growing a war chest I don't understand Ainge trading Kessler, and I don't have to know.

Ainge is feeling Sam Presti's pain. But he doesn't have Presti's ability to take a loss and move on. "Here is 5 second round picks for the guy we want". So this model of trying to emulate what Sam is doing. He won't get his guy, cause he won't overpay for it. He has to win every trade on paper even if it means his roster is a mismatched jumble. At least he has 7 power forwards who could all start on other teams.

So is Utah going to play the kids and tank or go for the overachieve and win 30 games?

I think he tries to increase asset value on his players until he finds his SGA. I don't know anything though.

martin wrote:

stillafan wrote:As far as Kessler you have to look at history. Leon thought he had ainge because no one else was in the game, not till clev came in and DM was gone. IMO what leon should do is make a final take it or leave it offer and put a deadline to it. Now I would probably go get a third team involved to get a late first for duece, lets face it he's not getting playing time unless there is an injury. We have Dadiet low contract to throw out them and Sim's. I'd do that because kessler's value to this team as a backup and possible starter for games Mitch could miss is way more important than all three players. We also have the rights to Rokas. make the offer, put a final date, if ainge don't meet it, move on, so make the date soon lol...

Leon is not in the position to do that, Ainge has prospects and a long timeline so doing that type of offer gains you nothing. Ainge is in the feel out process, thus all the reports. Ainge is creating his market right now.

What you are talking about doing is what Minny did. Not good strategy unless that is your exactly plan.

The Knicks make adult trades, not the one you are talking about.

So i'm confused by the adult trades, but okay, so trading Duece and whatever for Kessler makes no sense? I happen to respect and like Kesslers game a lot. I guess we all have opinions but i'd jump all over that.

stillafan wrote:

martin wrote:

stillafan wrote:As far as Kessler you have to look at history. Leon thought he had ainge because no one else was in the game, not till clev came in and DM was gone. IMO what leon should do is make a final take it or leave it offer and put a deadline to it. Now I would probably go get a third team involved to get a late first for duece, lets face it he's not getting playing time unless there is an injury. We have Dadiet low contract to throw out them and Sim's. I'd do that because kessler's value to this team as a backup and possible starter for games Mitch could miss is way more important than all three players. We also have the rights to Rokas. make the offer, put a final date, if ainge don't meet it, move on, so make the date soon lol...

Leon is not in the position to do that, Ainge has prospects and a long timeline so doing that type of offer gains you nothing. Ainge is in the feel out process, thus all the reports. Ainge is creating his market right now.

What you are talking about doing is what Minny did. Not good strategy unless that is your exactly plan.

The Knicks make adult trades, not the one you are talking about.

So i'm confused by the adult trades, but okay, so trading Duece and whatever for Kessler makes no sense? I happen to respect and like Kesslers game a lot. I guess we all have opinions but i'd jump all over that.

I am talking about the leave it or take it aspect of negotiation. You don't really learn much by doing that other than how Ainge pronounces "No" or "up your offer"

EwingsGlass wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Nalod wrote:Its not what Ainge wants. Its how important is Kessler to us for our objectives. If he is the missing piece then Knicks pay what he is worth to us.
For a few years we been adding to the war chest for this moment. We spend big on Mikal, and perhaps we now have just a bit more to go.
If Kolek is thought to step over Duece then he is expendable. Is Deuce worth a mid-late 1st pick for a team that needs him now? is that what Ainge wants?
Yeah, I do this. Its not about market value, its knicks value and if our FO thinks we need Kessler than we pay. If I know this, Ainge knows this and he understand not all teams will pay. Its not that he is stupid greedy, he is being smart.

I think most of this is wrong.

I gave it a re-read and I think I just disagree with some of the assumptions but that does not mean the analysis is flawed. Mere examples that I would choose differently.

I tend to think we are the market for Kessler. I think Utah has Kessler in Summer League trying to expand that market. But I’d hold pretty tight. That said, as you say, if the FO believes he is the one, well, they have the ability to pull that trigger. Can’t really disagree.

With Deuce, I don’t know that Kolek has jumped Deuce. That’s not really your point. You say if he has, then he is expendable. Basically true, I just don’t think that occurred. Or that Kolek is a necessary component to trade Deuce or not. Your point is that he may be a trade chip. Can’t really argue that either.

You could simplify that if the Knicks think Deuce is less valuable to us than another Center, they should trade Deuce for a Center if the other team is willing.

I saw it as Kessler is more valuable than Deuce, and I don’t really agree with that. I could see Utah waiving Kessler for the roster slot after Summer League cause they have too many PF/Cs and need to deal. I think Kessler is great for us, but don’t see a ton of market elsewhere. He is flawed, but in a Thibs favorable way.

I think we give up 2 seconds and the rights to Sergio Llull to keep him off the waiver wire and maintain his bird rights intact.

When comparing Kessler straight up with Deuce, imo, Kessler is the better player. Kessler is a second year athletic big that is already close averaging a double double. Deuce?
I mean I get it, root for the home talent. We loved how he took a huge step up last year.

Now if we add team need, feel there is no comparison . We were about to pay $80 Million for a guy that basically has proven he can do what IHart just did. Add the fact our wing supply just got next level and crowded, Deice is already expendable. We will no longer need him to spell IQ off the bench. We will have Donte for that. Just don’t see Deuce being in the rotation. What may be needed is a creating PG the knows how to distribute the ball.

Problem is, the rest of the NBA is not as high on our home grown talent as we are. No way Aingenis looking to trade Kessler without including a lot. It’s than Deuce.

HofstraBBall wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Nalod wrote:Its not what Ainge wants. Its how important is Kessler to us for our objectives. If he is the missing piece then Knicks pay what he is worth to us.
For a few years we been adding to the war chest for this moment. We spend big on Mikal, and perhaps we now have just a bit more to go.
If Kolek is thought to step over Duece then he is expendable. Is Deuce worth a mid-late 1st pick for a team that needs him now? is that what Ainge wants?
Yeah, I do this. Its not about market value, its knicks value and if our FO thinks we need Kessler than we pay. If I know this, Ainge knows this and he understand not all teams will pay. Its not that he is stupid greedy, he is being smart.

I think most of this is wrong.

I gave it a re-read and I think I just disagree with some of the assumptions but that does not mean the analysis is flawed. Mere examples that I would choose differently.

I tend to think we are the market for Kessler. I think Utah has Kessler in Summer League trying to expand that market. But I’d hold pretty tight. That said, as you say, if the FO believes he is the one, well, they have the ability to pull that trigger. Can’t really disagree.

With Deuce, I don’t know that Kolek has jumped Deuce. That’s not really your point. You say if he has, then he is expendable. Basically true, I just don’t think that occurred. Or that Kolek is a necessary component to trade Deuce or not. Your point is that he may be a trade chip. Can’t really argue that either.

You could simplify that if the Knicks think Deuce is less valuable to us than another Center, they should trade Deuce for a Center if the other team is willing.

I saw it as Kessler is more valuable than Deuce, and I don’t really agree with that. I could see Utah waiving Kessler for the roster slot after Summer League cause they have too many PF/Cs and need to deal. I think Kessler is great for us, but don’t see a ton of market elsewhere. He is flawed, but in a Thibs favorable way.

I think we give up 2 seconds and the rights to Sergio Llull to keep him off the waiver wire and maintain his bird rights intact.

When comparing Kessler straight up with Deuce, imo, Kessler is the better player. Kessler is a second year athletic big that is already close averaging a double double. Deuce?
I mean I get it, root for the home talent. We loved how he took a huge step up last year.

Now if we add team need, feel there is no comparison . We were about to pay $80 Million for a guy that basically has proven he can do what IHart just did. Add the fact our wing supply just got next level and crowded, Deice is already expendable. We will no longer need him to spell IQ off the bench. We will have Donte for that. Just don’t see Deuce being in the rotation. What may be needed is a creating PG the knows how to distribute the ball.

Problem is, the rest of the NBA is not as high on our home grown talent as we are. No way Aingenis looking to trade Kessler without including a lot. It’s than Deuce.

We love Deuce. But let's face it, there aren't enough minutes for him on this roster as currently constructed. After the starting 5, there may be somewhere around 80 minutes per game to split between DDV, JHart, the back-up center and Deuce. Unless Thibs goes small ball with Randle at the 5 and barring injury, looks like Deuce will be mostly sitting.