stillafan wrote:

you said Grimes was year two and combined him, I didn't I had it correct, the rest you posted is basic information i'm not debating?

They failed in their inheritance, you disagree, i'd love to hear how? Do I really need to type what they inherited in cap, players and picks? did you answer the question on what we got back in return for Noel, Rose, Kemba and Fourn(to date, seems like we need to add)?

I know the timelines, you got it right with Grimes, congrats, why not answer the question that has been posed, don't need a break i've discussed this for quite sometime now.

First moves, horrible

Leon by getting Jalen, Hart, and Ihart, made up for the first blunders, yes that's a good thing unlike our past GM's.

Now we wait for the next moves that to me will define their tenure with this franchise.

OK? If you disagree that they didn't do well, please educate me and let me know how, i'm all for it. I learn from being wrong, and don't take it personally.

thanks

Maybe we're moving somewhere?

Rose has been GM for 3 seasons 20-21, 21-22, 22-23.

What's been the Knicks record since he took over vs. the 3 or 7 years before?

Winning is what's important right? Not so important how we get there.

Would you agree the Knicks have been 80% better since Rose took over vs. the previous 3 years?

I'm happy to defend everything Rose has done since he took over, but that's only because he's shown himself to be way better at the GM gig than you or me.

gradyandrew wrote:

stillafan wrote:

you said Grimes was year two and combined him, I didn't I had it correct, the rest you posted is basic information i'm not debating?

They failed in their inheritance, you disagree, i'd love to hear how? Do I really need to type what they inherited in cap, players and picks? did you answer the question on what we got back in return for Noel, Rose, Kemba and Fourn(to date, seems like we need to add)?

I know the timelines, you got it right with Grimes, congrats, why not answer the question that has been posed, don't need a break i've discussed this for quite sometime now.

First moves, horrible

Leon by getting Jalen, Hart, and Ihart, made up for the first blunders, yes that's a good thing unlike our past GM's.

Now we wait for the next moves that to me will define their tenure with this franchise.

OK? If you disagree that they didn't do well, please educate me and let me know how, i'm all for it. I learn from being wrong, and don't take it personally.

thanks

Maybe we're moving somewhere?

Rose has been GM for 3 seasons 20-21, 21-22, 22-23.

What's been the Knicks record since he took over vs. the 3 or 7 years before?

Winning is what's important right? Not so important how we get there.

Would you agree the Knicks have been 80% better since Rose took over vs. the previous 3 years?

I'm happy to defend everything Rose has done since he took over, but that's only because he's shown himself to be way better at the GM gig than you or me.

ok good, i'm leaving this conversation, honestly I hope no one asks more on it lol. Time to move on and discuss our team, I may not have the 100% faith in this FO, but I do have faith and hope and I'm not getting any younger so hopefully before Jalen asks for a huge pay day after two more seasons, we can add to what we have.

I've also wondered what our FO thinks of Mitch/Ihart combo? What a great center tandem, but Ihart is a UFA after this season so an expiring and he came on last year. I know different topic but in line what our FO will do, it's a nice problem but I hope we don't lose Ihart for nothing, been a fan of his for a couple seasons now, actually wanted him before he was even available, I was pretty pleased with that pick and getting Jalen who I wanted since the draft.

stillafan wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

stillafan wrote:

you said Grimes was year two and combined him, I didn't I had it correct, the rest you posted is basic information i'm not debating?

They failed in their inheritance, you disagree, i'd love to hear how? Do I really need to type what they inherited in cap, players and picks? did you answer the question on what we got back in return for Noel, Rose, Kemba and Fourn(to date, seems like we need to add)?

I know the timelines, you got it right with Grimes, congrats, why not answer the question that has been posed, don't need a break i've discussed this for quite sometime now.

First moves, horrible

Leon by getting Jalen, Hart, and Ihart, made up for the first blunders, yes that's a good thing unlike our past GM's.

Now we wait for the next moves that to me will define their tenure with this franchise.

OK? If you disagree that they didn't do well, please educate me and let me know how, i'm all for it. I learn from being wrong, and don't take it personally.

thanks

Maybe we're moving somewhere?

Rose has been GM for 3 seasons 20-21, 21-22, 22-23.

What's been the Knicks record since he took over vs. the 3 or 7 years before?

Winning is what's important right? Not so important how we get there.

Would you agree the Knicks have been 80% better since Rose took over vs. the previous 3 years?

I'm happy to defend everything Rose has done since he took over, but that's only because he's shown himself to be way better at the GM gig than you or me.

ok good, i'm leaving this conversation, honestly I hope no one asks more on it lol. Time to move on and discuss our team, I may not have the 100% faith in this FO, but I do have faith and hope and I'm not getting any younger so hopefully before Jalen asks for a huge pay day after two more seasons, we can add to what we have.

I've also wondered what our FO thinks of Mitch/Ihart combo? What a great center tandem, but Ihart is a UFA after this season so an expiring and he came on last year. I know different topic but in line what our FO will do, it's a nice problem but I hope we don't lose Ihart for nothing, been a fan of his for a couple seasons now, actually wanted him before he was even available, I was pretty pleased with that pick and getting Jalen who I wanted since the draft.

Did you like him like him, or do you Briggs like him?

I will add that draft picks are assets. You can use them in several ways to improve your team. Drafting outside of the top 3 is like gambling and you need to have rotation minutes for your young players to improve. Using picks to either add a player or move salary is still managing assets. Micro analysing each individual, move without taking the whole complex plan and situation into account is just shouting into the wind. At the end of the day the results speak for themselves. We have increased the talent level on this team. We still have assets to continue to upgrade talent on this team. We are now considered a playoff team. We are no longer a national joke are are making an argument for more nationally televised games. We are on a stable steady path to growth. Whoever thought the Knicks and stable franchise would be used in the same sentence. Maybe try and see the forest from the trees and just enjoy the ride. We might make a big deal, we might do nothing more and either way we are still relevant to the playoff picture. Rose and Co are credited with this, gradyandrew has already given you all of the receipts. Now, I’m going to enjoy the beauty of the Blueridge Moutains while I’m still here so peace out.

gradyandrew wrote:

stillafan wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

stillafan wrote:

you said Grimes was year two and combined him, I didn't I had it correct, the rest you posted is basic information i'm not debating?

They failed in their inheritance, you disagree, i'd love to hear how? Do I really need to type what they inherited in cap, players and picks? did you answer the question on what we got back in return for Noel, Rose, Kemba and Fourn(to date, seems like we need to add)?

I know the timelines, you got it right with Grimes, congrats, why not answer the question that has been posed, don't need a break i've discussed this for quite sometime now.

First moves, horrible

Leon by getting Jalen, Hart, and Ihart, made up for the first blunders, yes that's a good thing unlike our past GM's.

Now we wait for the next moves that to me will define their tenure with this franchise.

OK? If you disagree that they didn't do well, please educate me and let me know how, i'm all for it. I learn from being wrong, and don't take it personally.

thanks

Maybe we're moving somewhere?

Rose has been GM for 3 seasons 20-21, 21-22, 22-23.

What's been the Knicks record since he took over vs. the 3 or 7 years before?

Winning is what's important right? Not so important how we get there.

Would you agree the Knicks have been 80% better since Rose took over vs. the previous 3 years?

I'm happy to defend everything Rose has done since he took over, but that's only because he's shown himself to be way better at the GM gig than you or me.

ok good, i'm leaving this conversation, honestly I hope no one asks more on it lol. Time to move on and discuss our team, I may not have the 100% faith in this FO, but I do have faith and hope and I'm not getting any younger so hopefully before Jalen asks for a huge pay day after two more seasons, we can add to what we have.

I've also wondered what our FO thinks of Mitch/Ihart combo? What a great center tandem, but Ihart is a UFA after this season so an expiring and he came on last year. I know different topic but in line what our FO will do, it's a nice problem but I hope we don't lose Ihart for nothing, been a fan of his for a couple seasons now, actually wanted him before he was even available, I was pretty pleased with that pick and getting Jalen who I wanted since the draft.

Well, you said Rose's first moves were horrible when the Knicks ended up with a 4seed, Randle Most Improved and Second Team All NBA, and Thibs COY. So I just wanted some clarification on what your expectations were when Rose took over after 7 years of futility.

You are of course free to speak on any topic you like.

My opinion has always been that Pres/GMing is a big picture job that is largely judged on wins and losses and progress made, similar to the CEO of a company that is judged by big picture stuff like bottom line and brand awareness. You can microanalyze move for move and make any Pres/GM look bad. But the results and progress is where they will ultimately be judged. With that in mine, Leon has done a great job bringing respectability and stability back to this organization. We are in a better spot than we've been since I've been a toddler, with a rising young playoff team and a boatload of talented young players and draft assets.

Rookie wrote:

stillafan wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

stillafan wrote:

you said Grimes was year two and combined him, I didn't I had it correct, the rest you posted is basic information i'm not debating?

They failed in their inheritance, you disagree, i'd love to hear how? Do I really need to type what they inherited in cap, players and picks? did you answer the question on what we got back in return for Noel, Rose, Kemba and Fourn(to date, seems like we need to add)?

I know the timelines, you got it right with Grimes, congrats, why not answer the question that has been posed, don't need a break i've discussed this for quite sometime now.

First moves, horrible

Leon by getting Jalen, Hart, and Ihart, made up for the first blunders, yes that's a good thing unlike our past GM's.

Now we wait for the next moves that to me will define their tenure with this franchise.

OK? If you disagree that they didn't do well, please educate me and let me know how, i'm all for it. I learn from being wrong, and don't take it personally.

thanks

Maybe we're moving somewhere?

Rose has been GM for 3 seasons 20-21, 21-22, 22-23.

What's been the Knicks record since he took over vs. the 3 or 7 years before?

Winning is what's important right? Not so important how we get there.

Would you agree the Knicks have been 80% better since Rose took over vs. the previous 3 years?

I'm happy to defend everything Rose has done since he took over, but that's only because he's shown himself to be way better at the GM gig than you or me.

ok good, i'm leaving this conversation, honestly I hope no one asks more on it lol. Time to move on and discuss our team, I may not have the 100% faith in this FO, but I do have faith and hope and I'm not getting any younger so hopefully before Jalen asks for a huge pay day after two more seasons, we can add to what we have.

I've also wondered what our FO thinks of Mitch/Ihart combo? What a great center tandem, but Ihart is a UFA after this season so an expiring and he came on last year. I know different topic but in line what our FO will do, it's a nice problem but I hope we don't lose Ihart for nothing, been a fan of his for a couple seasons now, actually wanted him before he was even available, I was pretty pleased with that pick and getting Jalen who I wanted since the draft.

Did you like him like him, or do you Briggs like him?

I will add that draft picks are assets. You can use them in several ways to improve your team. Drafting outside of the top 3 is like gambling and you need to have rotation minutes for your young players to improve. Using picks to either add a player or move salary is still managing assets. Micro analysing each individual, move without taking the whole complex plan and situation into account is just shouting into the wind. At the end of the day the results speak for themselves. We have increased the talent level on this team. We still have assets to continue to upgrade talent on this team. We are now considered a playoff team. We are no longer a national joke are are making an argument for more nationally televised games. We are on a stable steady path to growth. Whoever thought the Knicks and stable franchise would be used in the same sentence. Maybe try and see the forest from the trees and just enjoy the ride. We might make a big deal, we might do nothing more and either way we are still relevant to the playoff picture. Rose and Co are credited with this, gradyandrew has already given you all of the receipts. Now, I’m going to enjoy the beauty of the Blueridge Moutains while I’m still here so peace out.

i'm sorry for being a bit confused but you highlighted the last line with Jalen and went off elsewhere, i'm done with the elsewhere, I have no idea about others enjoyments but I sleep and eat Knicks since 1968 so i'd say i've enjoyed the ride, that don't mean I have to agree about the bumps in the road, right?

Jalen? What exactly are you asking if I liked him?

I was a huge Jalen fan while in college, always like his father. Wanted the Knicks to move up with their 36th pick to nab this kid in the draft.

When we traded KP I wanted jalen not DSJ back in that trade, this is documented in that other forum.

When we were at the deadline and Dallas wasn't extending Jalen for 12m, I was all over the Knicks trade thread pleading that Leon would trade a player with equal value money wise to make the trade and give Dallas their pick or if it took it picks back. I wanted him and would have extended him for 12m for a 4 year term because at the time that was his max extension price by league rules.

I liked him and of course like him now so much I was willing to include Mitch and one Dallas pick for Jalen at the deadline.

Hope that answered your question on Jalen, and guys that came over can vouch for all the above. He's a winner and how that went the way it did in the NBA was head scratching.

stillafan wrote:When you have 63m in cap and you use it on Noel, Rose, Kemba, Fourn, how was that a positive?

Literally no one but you seems to care about this and even would want to ask or think about that proposition

martin wrote:

stillafan wrote:When you have 63m in cap and you use it on Noel, Rose, Kemba, Fourn, how was that a positive?

Literally no one but you seems to care about this and even would want to ask or think about that proposition

my coworker just chimed in and said some pertinent things, how can any knick fan not care about that? What it could mean for this team, yes we are good today but what if we could have been great? I'm not going to be redundant because if anyone follows any sport they know what was done one year could affect future years, and this did, and yes we are good, but the possibilities frankly are endless.

We are in an excellent spot, we all feel great right now because for decades we haven't. Funny the subject is Leon and you make this statement but do you not ever talk about the Knicks past and past GM's and things like wow DM could be here if we went with Phil's gut, and damn how did we not draft the most obvious player in Mikal, because he was already 22?

I've never seen any sport not talk about the past, because the past is what gets you to the present and hopefully a better future. And yes I do get a bit upset when a player like DD comes out and says he wanted to come to NY and we have Fourn sitting on the bench and now taking up 19m in cap, yea the past is important and I do care.

Not sure how this could be a negative but sure turned into one.

You guys are painting me into a I hate Leon, well sorry if you got that impression, its far from the truth. Lastly Maybe Leon himself cares, and learned from it, seems to be not making those same type moves.

martin wrote:

stillafan wrote:

martin wrote:

stillafan wrote:When you have 63m in cap and you use it on Noel, Rose, Kemba, Fourn, how was that a positive?

Literally no one but you seems to care about this and even would want to ask or think about that proposition

my coworker just chimed in and said some pertinent things, how can any knick fan not care about that? What it could mean for this team, yes we are good today but what if we could have been great? I'm not going to be redundant because if anyone follows any sport they know what was done one year could affect future years, and this did, and yes we are good, but the possibilities frankly are endless.

We are in an excellent spot, we all feel great right now because for decades we haven't. Funny the subject is Leon and you make this statement but do you not ever talk about the Knicks past and past GM's and things like wow DM could be here if we went with Phil's gut, and damn how did we not draft the most obvious player in Mikal, because he was already 22?

I've never seen any sport not talk about the past, because the past is what gets you to the present and hopefully a better future. And yes I do get a bit upset when a player like DD comes out and says he wanted to come to NY and we have Fourn sitting on the bench and now taking up 19m in cap, yea the past is important and I do care.

Not sure how this could be a negative but sure turned into one.

You guys are painting me into a I hate Leon, well sorry if you got that impression, its far from the truth. Lastly Maybe Leon himself cares, and learned from it, seems to be not making those same type moves.

This whole thread seems to suggest otherwise

lol Touche'

stillafan wrote:

martin wrote:

stillafan wrote:When you have 63m in cap and you use it on Noel, Rose, Kemba, Fourn, how was that a positive?

Literally no one but you seems to care about this and even would want to ask or think about that proposition

my coworker just chimed in and said some pertinent things, how can any knick fan not care about that? What it could mean for this team, yes we are good today but what if we could have been great? I'm not going to be redundant because if anyone follows any sport they know what was done one year could affect future years, and this did, and yes we are good, but the possibilities frankly are endless.

We are in an excellent spot, we all feel great right now because for decades we haven't. Funny the subject is Leon and you make this statement but do you not ever talk about the Knicks past and past GM's and things like wow DM could be here if we went with Phil's gut, and damn how did we not draft the most obvious player in Mikal, because he was already 22?

I've never seen any sport not talk about the past, because the past is what gets you to the present and hopefully a better future. And yes I do get a bit upset when a player like DD comes out and says he wanted to come to NY and we have Fourn sitting on the bench and now taking up 19m in cap, yea the past is important and I do care.

Not sure how this could be a negative but sure turned into one.

You guys are painting me into a I hate Leon, well sorry if you got that impression, its far from the truth. Lastly Maybe Leon himself cares, and learned from it, seems to be not making those same type moves.

Nah, it feels like you are trolling the board by picking issues that have already been bought, paid for and re-sold. We are merely being polite enough to let you know we are over it. Every moment combines itself into Brunson. No one talks about the strikeouts if a player goes 1-4 with a grand slam.

Long story short, many of us were not excited about that specific offseason. Or the one prior. We try and see the positive but it was a push. We mostly agree it was a push at best. No one had an issue with re-signing Noel. No one had a real issue with Kemba. We thought he would revert to a better player. The Fournier signing was divisive. His defensive flaws were well known, but he was widely viewed as a second offensive option that could spread the floor. The magnitude of this defensive weakness took two seasons for this board to comprehend, most folks here being captivated by his 3pt volume. Scott Perry took the brunt of the EF signing on this board.

The commitment to Kemba and EF resulted in the pro-Thibs/anti-Thibs fights that disguised itself into a "young vs vet" argument. That eventually was resolved when Grimes took Fournier's rotation spot but lingering issues remained where the pro-Thibs camp praised his intelligence for making the switch (Grimes wasn't ready until NOW) versus the "Took him long enough" crowd that took it as reinforcement of long held beliefs. My belief after Grimes' playoffs is that he probably wasn't fully ready, but wasn't worse than EF. But we don't talk about Thibs these days. After turning the team around, the only complaints are the player surveys that no one wants to play for him.

In any event, most of us are now picking sides on whether to continue the process or to Starphuch the team. I'd guess the majority is in for the process. Barrett is the most divisive player currently with the biggest pro he has is that he is only 22 23. That's where the OG infatuation comes from, the anti Barrett camp basically wants to trade him for OG.

I am sure I have left out much of the nuance, but if you are bringing up old arguments about offseasons past, we are all pretty much over it and you are more likely to hear crickets than a meaningful response.

Welcome aboard.

stillafan wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

stillafan wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

stillafan wrote:

you said Grimes was year two and combined him, I didn't I had it correct, the rest you posted is basic information i'm not debating?

They failed in their inheritance, you disagree, i'd love to hear how? Do I really need to type what they inherited in cap, players and picks? did you answer the question on what we got back in return for Noel, Rose, Kemba and Fourn(to date, seems like we need to add)?

I know the timelines, you got it right with Grimes, congrats, why not answer the question that has been posed, don't need a break i've discussed this for quite sometime now.

First moves, horrible

Leon by getting Jalen, Hart, and Ihart, made up for the first blunders, yes that's a good thing unlike our past GM's.

Now we wait for the next moves that to me will define their tenure with this franchise.

OK? If you disagree that they didn't do well, please educate me and let me know how, i'm all for it. I learn from being wrong, and don't take it personally.

thanks

Maybe we're moving somewhere?

Rose has been GM for 3 seasons 20-21, 21-22, 22-23.

What's been the Knicks record since he took over vs. the 3 or 7 years before?

Winning is what's important right? Not so important how we get there.

Would you agree the Knicks have been 80% better since Rose took over vs. the previous 3 years?

I'm happy to defend everything Rose has done since he took over, but that's only because he's shown himself to be way better at the GM gig than you or me.

ok good, i'm leaving this conversation, honestly I hope no one asks more on it lol. Time to move on and discuss our team, I may not have the 100% faith in this FO, but I do have faith and hope and I'm not getting any younger so hopefully before Jalen asks for a huge pay day after two more seasons, we can add to what we have.

I've also wondered what our FO thinks of Mitch/Ihart combo? What a great center tandem, but Ihart is a UFA after this season so an expiring and he came on last year. I know different topic but in line what our FO will do, it's a nice problem but I hope we don't lose Ihart for nothing, been a fan of his for a couple seasons now, actually wanted him before he was even available, I was pretty pleased with that pick and getting Jalen who I wanted since the draft.

Well, you said Rose's first moves were horrible when the Knicks ended up with a 4seed, Randle Most Improved and Second Team All NBA, and Thibs COY. So I just wanted some clarification on what your expectations were when Rose took over after 7 years of futility.

You are of course free to speak on any topic you like.

ok seems like circles but OK, besides Rose what other moves got us the 4th seed that Leon gets credit for? Randle? NO!, RJ? no!, Mitch?, NO!

When you have 63m in cap and you use it on Noel, Rose, Kemba, Fourn, how was that a positive? His first year here I'll give him full credit for Thibs but make no bones about it, Randle if another team bit would have been traded for a bag of donuts, hence the Obi draft pick, and hence all the rumors of moving Randle.

Randle broke out in a huge, huge way, credit thibs, you think Leon would have gotten Rose without Thibs? Don't know the answer but I personally give Thibs more credit there. Those were the main reasons we were a 4th seed coupled with it being a covid season and Knicks pretty much staying healthy.

Again and it's really redundant, if you think 63m in cap, and what we got was a good thing, then yea for you, but I think it was horrible.

After Covid did we or did we not finish a lottery team and have terrible team issues throughout the season with Randle? How in earth did those moves even pretend to be good?

Coming to a tream in March, then during covid being a 4th seed and being embarrassed by the 5th seed and adding only Rose to the main contributors don't say much.

Then finishing in the lottery after that 4th seed, one can say thank you Covid, and thank you Randle for breaking out.

Getting Jalen was the best thing to happen to this Franchise in decades, extremely pleased, not matter how it got done or how Dallas f'd it up, we have him and i'm greatful.

You have not changed my mind Leon bit the dust on his first big moves with that 63m, one big one was signing Fourn when he easily could have had DeRozan who came out in his words and said he wanted to go to the Knicks.

So I'm not sure how many more circles you want to go in, but if you feel what he did with 63m was good , I'll say it again, congrats to you and anyone else, I think i'm more in reality to be frank. I know what we got, who we got and what value we ended up with...........nothing! A lost season and then Jalen and a once again reborn Randle to the rescue.

Next move will be for me my final exam. You know my take, i'm a bit confused on yours in regards to the how he used the 63m but I understand and agree where we are today is amazing, you'd have to be a fool, but I just have different takes on the credit part. I think a moron could have signed Jalen based on the circumstances. Won't go over well in here but hey it's my opinion, and don't mean i'm not tickled to death he's here.

The part you’re missing is that FA’s have to want to sign here. Leon has changed the culture. Randle wanted to extend here. Mitch wanted to extend here. RJ wanted to extend here. FA’s Brunson, iHart and DiVincenzo wanted to sign here. Hart wants to stay here and opted in. All of the small moves add up. Before you know it players are thinking they can win with the Knicks and they want to be here. It’s culture and winning and the Garden and the NY market. Leon and Co did this. We back