DLeethal wrote:

Rookie wrote:

DLeethal wrote:Trading a G/F (or 2) for OG seems like the most likely scenario if something is to happen this offseason. Then add a traditional low-minute backup 4. The CAA stuff appears to be an early indicator. RJ makes sense for TOR for obvious reasons. OG as more of a prototypical 3/D guy fits better with Brunson and Julius. Makes sense all around. Doesn't make us that much closer though, feels like we still need another "star" level scorer/shotmaker.

Makes sense to me if it's RJ going to Toronto to add a more traditional wing to replace him. If not RJ, adding another slow average athletic player to the rotation doesn't seem like a great fit. We already are one of the slowest teams in the league.

Brunson
RJ
OG
Randle
Mitch

not real excited about that line up unless we bringing back the 90's

Agreed, something has gotta give with RJ and Randle eventually. They just clash stylistically even though they've made it work to a degree. Both pounders, flimsy 3 shooters, flimsy FT shooters, poor off-ball guys. OG works at the 3 with Grimes at the 2 and Randle at the 4. OG would work as a small ball 4 with RJ at the 3 as well (Thibs probably wouldn't do it). But RJ-OG-Randle doesn't work IMO. At some point we need to start considering "fit".

What I like about OG, which I also liked about the Paul George rumors, is to compete in the East you need a defensive "stopper" type to match up with Giannis, Tatum, Butler. OG is a good guy to have in those inevitable playoff series'. RJ/Randle are not sufficient defenders to place on them for a playoff series and Grimes/Hart are too small although they will compete.

I will add, someone posted summer work out pictures of RJ in another thread. He looked lean and mean. It was enough for me to jump back on the RJ bandwagon. I'm intrigued to see what a lighter leaner 23 y.o. RJ brings this season.

Rookie wrote:

DLeethal wrote:

Rookie wrote:

DLeethal wrote:Trading a G/F (or 2) for OG seems like the most likely scenario if something is to happen this offseason. Then add a traditional low-minute backup 4. The CAA stuff appears to be an early indicator. RJ makes sense for TOR for obvious reasons. OG as more of a prototypical 3/D guy fits better with Brunson and Julius. Makes sense all around. Doesn't make us that much closer though, feels like we still need another "star" level scorer/shotmaker.

Makes sense to me if it's RJ going to Toronto to add a more traditional wing to replace him. If not RJ, adding another slow average athletic player to the rotation doesn't seem like a great fit. We already are one of the slowest teams in the league.

Brunson
RJ
OG
Randle
Mitch

not real excited about that line up unless we bringing back the 90's

Agreed, something has gotta give with RJ and Randle eventually. They just clash stylistically even though they've made it work to a degree. Both pounders, flimsy 3 shooters, flimsy FT shooters, poor off-ball guys. OG works at the 3 with Grimes at the 2 and Randle at the 4. OG would work as a small ball 4 with RJ at the 3 as well (Thibs probably wouldn't do it). But RJ-OG-Randle doesn't work IMO. At some point we need to start considering "fit".

What I like about OG, which I also liked about the Paul George rumors, is to compete in the East you need a defensive "stopper" type to match up with Giannis, Tatum, Butler. OG is a good guy to have in those inevitable playoff series'. RJ/Randle are not sufficient defenders to place on them for a playoff series and Grimes/Hart are too small although they will compete.

I will add, someone posted summer work out pictures of RJ in another thread. He looked lean and mean. It was enough for me to jump back on the RJ bandwagon. I'm intrigued to see what a lighter leaner 23 y.o. RJ brings this season.

In a vacuum I would probably choose RJ over Randle and look for a hybrid 3/4 to play at the 4 like Paul George or maybe even OG. Just don't see it happening.

martin wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Apparently we are offering StarJ, Fournier and two first round picks. I wonder if Toronto would bite. RJ is a late developer and had a strong outing in the playoffs. He was 3rd best player behind Brunson and Randle on a team that got to the 2 round and showed a little fight in that Heat series. I don't have a problem if we keep RJ but somehow OG might be that missing piece.

I wonder what two picks ? But no matter we have others first rounders, and second rounders to make other moves. If we trade RJ for OG and 2 first, with EF, we would still have other pics to draft or trade. I'd do it

DDV, Hart, OG, Mitch (Thats a lot of defense and versatility). But keep in mind, Leon refused to include RJ in the D.Mitchel trade or Paul George trade. So why would he change his mind with the OG trade if OG is not better than those 2 D.Mitch or PG? or maybe they believe he is?

Maybe because OG replaces RJ and we need the wing plus RJ in a Mitchell deal would still have fost more. Plus RJ has increased his value since last summer and fewer other players and picks would now be outgoing.

My fear it could be a panic move. I would like for once we can win a damn trade, then I would be confident. Based on knick history we over pay for OG just to say we made a move and not a smart one. Or over think and do nothing. This silent chess match is interesting. I just don’t know why Toronto needs to trade him. They can sit back and do nothing. They can now feature him more with FVV out. He gets what he wants. That puts pressure on Leon. Maybe RJ play will lean the battle one way or another.

Still dont understand the need to force feed a trade for OG from the Knicks perspective. Is he really that much of an ugrade? What is the real opprtunity cost of getting a "better fit"? When is it too expensive? RJ is 2 or 3 years younger and a comparable level player (just maybe a different skillset) why is everyone so good with attaching picks to a younger, same level player to get an older player, that will be a FA, that wants to be higher up on the food chain than 3rd banana (and is unhappy about being a 3rd guy), but he is being traded into the situation of being a 3rd guy....I am never going to understand this thinking. The deal should be OG and a pick for RJ. Not just because of skill level but taking everything into account.

I agree with you on attaching picks to a younger player with better upside but I don't think the rest of what you said is grounded in reality. OG is elite at something, all NBA on the defensive side of things; RJ has not shown an elite quality, it's just potential.

I am not intimately familiar with things that are going on with Toronto but to just roll with the 3rd banana marker is just way off. OG was tied for 4th on his team in shots per game and the guy he was tied with is Scotty Barnes, someone who the Raptors are building around and they want HIM to have more touches. OG was 6th on his team in Usage.

Let's do that again. OG was arguably 5th in shots taken per game and 6th in usage for the Raptors. He wants more within the offense, so trading up to a spot like RJ's would be a HUGE jump. In a reduced role last year, RJ shot 16 times per game compared to 13 from OG. Usage? 19% versus 26% for RJ. Completely different roles for both players, they are not nearly compatible.

RJ is barely an average offensive player when you consider how poorly he shoots as well as the TO's and he is worse on defense. He absolutely has unmet potential but the reality of what he currently has done is much less than OG is you consider both sides of the ball.

RJ is elite at getting to the rim. Not finishing but getting there. OG averaged 2 more minutes per game, 3 less shots and 3 less points. RJ passed more, rebounded more, played more total minutes (OG missed 6 more games than RJ).

Here is per 36 to even it out:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_per_minute.html

OG is not that much better overall. He just has a different skillset. My main question is this, Toronto is now rebuilding. They opened up opportunity for OG. If they believed he was so great, why are they open to trading him instead of using him at 26 as a relatively young building block?

joec32033 wrote:

martin wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Apparently we are offering StarJ, Fournier and two first round picks. I wonder if Toronto would bite. RJ is a late developer and had a strong outing in the playoffs. He was 3rd best player behind Brunson and Randle on a team that got to the 2 round and showed a little fight in that Heat series. I don't have a problem if we keep RJ but somehow OG might be that missing piece.

I wonder what two picks ? But no matter we have others first rounders, and second rounders to make other moves. If we trade RJ for OG and 2 first, with EF, we would still have other pics to draft or trade. I'd do it

DDV, Hart, OG, Mitch (Thats a lot of defense and versatility). But keep in mind, Leon refused to include RJ in the D.Mitchel trade or Paul George trade. So why would he change his mind with the OG trade if OG is not better than those 2 D.Mitch or PG? or maybe they believe he is?

Maybe because OG replaces RJ and we need the wing plus RJ in a Mitchell deal would still have fost more. Plus RJ has increased his value since last summer and fewer other players and picks would now be outgoing.

My fear it could be a panic move. I would like for once we can win a damn trade, then I would be confident. Based on knick history we over pay for OG just to say we made a move and not a smart one. Or over think and do nothing. This silent chess match is interesting. I just don’t know why Toronto needs to trade him. They can sit back and do nothing. They can now feature him more with FVV out. He gets what he wants. That puts pressure on Leon. Maybe RJ play will lean the battle one way or another.

Still dont understand the need to force feed a trade for OG from the Knicks perspective. Is he really that much of an ugrade? What is the real opprtunity cost of getting a "better fit"? When is it too expensive? RJ is 2 or 3 years younger and a comparable level player (just maybe a different skillset) why is everyone so good with attaching picks to a younger, same level player to get an older player, that will be a FA, that wants to be higher up on the food chain than 3rd banana (and is unhappy about being a 3rd guy), but he is being traded into the situation of being a 3rd guy....I am never going to understand this thinking. The deal should be OG and a pick for RJ. Not just because of skill level but taking everything into account.

I agree with you on attaching picks to a younger player with better upside but I don't think the rest of what you said is grounded in reality. OG is elite at something, all NBA on the defensive side of things; RJ has not shown an elite quality, it's just potential.

I am not intimately familiar with things that are going on with Toronto but to just roll with the 3rd banana marker is just way off. OG was tied for 4th on his team in shots per game and the guy he was tied with is Scotty Barnes, someone who the Raptors are building around and they want HIM to have more touches. OG was 6th on his team in Usage.

Let's do that again. OG was arguably 5th in shots taken per game and 6th in usage for the Raptors. He wants more within the offense, so trading up to a spot like RJ's would be a HUGE jump. In a reduced role last year, RJ shot 16 times per game compared to 13 from OG. Usage? 19% versus 26% for RJ. Completely different roles for both players, they are not nearly compatible.

RJ is barely an average offensive player when you consider how poorly he shoots as well as the TO's and he is worse on defense. He absolutely has unmet potential but the reality of what he currently has done is much less than OG is you consider both sides of the ball.

RJ is elite at getting to the rim. Not finishing but getting there. OG averaged 2 more minutes per game, 3 less shots and 3 less points. RJ passed more, rebounded more, played more total minutes (OG missed 6 more games than RJ).

Here is per 36 to even it out:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_per_minute.html

OG is not that much better overall. He just has a different skillset. My main question is this, Toronto is now rebuilding. They opened up opportunity for OG. If they believed he was so great, why are they open to trading him instead of using him at 26 as a relatively young building block?

Because it looks like he will leave. I don’t know what Toronto is doing but it looks like they don’t extend any of the players that are actually good for their team. FVV, Siakam, Gary Trent. This is a Raptors thing, not an OG particular circumstance.

RJ has a finishing problem. And shooting from everywhere problem. RJ has started to figure out some of the passing thing - his assist to TO suggests he has a ton of room for growth - but has a long way to go.

For me, when a guy is on an all NBA team for something, that is a big separator. OG is literally one of the best 3&D big wing players in the league and that’s why everyone would love to have him on team.

You and I rate or weigh potential differently. There is no doubt RJ has a ton of potential. When you are not a particularly good passer or finisher, it dampens the potential IMHO

OG is literally one of the most versatile defenders in the league and he is not below average on the other side of the court. I can’t say that about RJ and why I can’t equate them right now.

martin wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

martin wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Apparently we are offering StarJ, Fournier and two first round picks. I wonder if Toronto would bite. RJ is a late developer and had a strong outing in the playoffs. He was 3rd best player behind Brunson and Randle on a team that got to the 2 round and showed a little fight in that Heat series. I don't have a problem if we keep RJ but somehow OG might be that missing piece.

I wonder what two picks ? But no matter we have others first rounders, and second rounders to make other moves. If we trade RJ for OG and 2 first, with EF, we would still have other pics to draft or trade. I'd do it

DDV, Hart, OG, Mitch (Thats a lot of defense and versatility). But keep in mind, Leon refused to include RJ in the D.Mitchel trade or Paul George trade. So why would he change his mind with the OG trade if OG is not better than those 2 D.Mitch or PG? or maybe they believe he is?

Maybe because OG replaces RJ and we need the wing plus RJ in a Mitchell deal would still have fost more. Plus RJ has increased his value since last summer and fewer other players and picks would now be outgoing.

My fear it could be a panic move. I would like for once we can win a damn trade, then I would be confident. Based on knick history we over pay for OG just to say we made a move and not a smart one. Or over think and do nothing. This silent chess match is interesting. I just don’t know why Toronto needs to trade him. They can sit back and do nothing. They can now feature him more with FVV out. He gets what he wants. That puts pressure on Leon. Maybe RJ play will lean the battle one way or another.

Still dont understand the need to force feed a trade for OG from the Knicks perspective. Is he really that much of an ugrade? What is the real opprtunity cost of getting a "better fit"? When is it too expensive? RJ is 2 or 3 years younger and a comparable level player (just maybe a different skillset) why is everyone so good with attaching picks to a younger, same level player to get an older player, that will be a FA, that wants to be higher up on the food chain than 3rd banana (and is unhappy about being a 3rd guy), but he is being traded into the situation of being a 3rd guy....I am never going to understand this thinking. The deal should be OG and a pick for RJ. Not just because of skill level but taking everything into account.

I agree with you on attaching picks to a younger player with better upside but I don't think the rest of what you said is grounded in reality. OG is elite at something, all NBA on the defensive side of things; RJ has not shown an elite quality, it's just potential.

I am not intimately familiar with things that are going on with Toronto but to just roll with the 3rd banana marker is just way off. OG was tied for 4th on his team in shots per game and the guy he was tied with is Scotty Barnes, someone who the Raptors are building around and they want HIM to have more touches. OG was 6th on his team in Usage.

Let's do that again. OG was arguably 5th in shots taken per game and 6th in usage for the Raptors. He wants more within the offense, so trading up to a spot like RJ's would be a HUGE jump. In a reduced role last year, RJ shot 16 times per game compared to 13 from OG. Usage? 19% versus 26% for RJ. Completely different roles for both players, they are not nearly compatible.

RJ is barely an average offensive player when you consider how poorly he shoots as well as the TO's and he is worse on defense. He absolutely has unmet potential but the reality of what he currently has done is much less than OG is you consider both sides of the ball.

RJ is elite at getting to the rim. Not finishing but getting there. OG averaged 2 more minutes per game, 3 less shots and 3 less points. RJ passed more, rebounded more, played more total minutes (OG missed 6 more games than RJ).

Here is per 36 to even it out:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_per_minute.html

OG is not that much better overall. He just has a different skillset. My main question is this, Toronto is now rebuilding. They opened up opportunity for OG. If they believed he was so great, why are they open to trading him instead of using him at 26 as a relatively young building block?

Because it looks like he will leave. I don’t know what Toronto is doing but it looks like they don’t extend any of the players that are actually good for their team. FVV, Siakam, Gary Trent. This is a Raptors thing, not an OG particular circumstance.

RJ has a finishing problem. And shooting from everywhere problem. RJ has started to figure out some of the passing thing - his assist to TO suggests he has a ton of room for growth - but has a long way to go.

For me, when a guy is on an all NBA team for something, that is a big separator. OG is literally one of the best 3&D big wing players in the league and that’s why everyone would love to have him on team.

You and I rate or weigh potential differently. There is no doubt RJ has a ton of potential. When you are not a particularly good passer or finisher, it dampens the potential IMHO

OG is literally one of the most versatile defenders in the league and he is not below average on the other side of the court. I can’t say that about RJ and why I can’t equate them right now.

I think this is a fair take. For some reason I believe Barrett can make a jump as a passer. If he does I think it will make his finishing look a lot better. Forced layups turn into kick outs. His shooting is also an issue. He needs to improve shooting, passing and finishing, on its face that is a lot even if 2 of the issues are connected

😉

martin wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

martin wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Apparently we are offering StarJ, Fournier and two first round picks. I wonder if Toronto would bite. RJ is a late developer and had a strong outing in the playoffs. He was 3rd best player behind Brunson and Randle on a team that got to the 2 round and showed a little fight in that Heat series. I don't have a problem if we keep RJ but somehow OG might be that missing piece.

I wonder what two picks ? But no matter we have others first rounders, and second rounders to make other moves. If we trade RJ for OG and 2 first, with EF, we would still have other pics to draft or trade. I'd do it

DDV, Hart, OG, Mitch (Thats a lot of defense and versatility). But keep in mind, Leon refused to include RJ in the D.Mitchel trade or Paul George trade. So why would he change his mind with the OG trade if OG is not better than those 2 D.Mitch or PG? or maybe they believe he is?

Maybe because OG replaces RJ and we need the wing plus RJ in a Mitchell deal would still have fost more. Plus RJ has increased his value since last summer and fewer other players and picks would now be outgoing.

My fear it could be a panic move. I would like for once we can win a damn trade, then I would be confident. Based on knick history we over pay for OG just to say we made a move and not a smart one. Or over think and do nothing. This silent chess match is interesting. I just don’t know why Toronto needs to trade him. They can sit back and do nothing. They can now feature him more with FVV out. He gets what he wants. That puts pressure on Leon. Maybe RJ play will lean the battle one way or another.

Still dont understand the need to force feed a trade for OG from the Knicks perspective. Is he really that much of an ugrade? What is the real opprtunity cost of getting a "better fit"? When is it too expensive? RJ is 2 or 3 years younger and a comparable level player (just maybe a different skillset) why is everyone so good with attaching picks to a younger, same level player to get an older player, that will be a FA, that wants to be higher up on the food chain than 3rd banana (and is unhappy about being a 3rd guy), but he is being traded into the situation of being a 3rd guy....I am never going to understand this thinking. The deal should be OG and a pick for RJ. Not just because of skill level but taking everything into account.

I agree with you on attaching picks to a younger player with better upside but I don't think the rest of what you said is grounded in reality. OG is elite at something, all NBA on the defensive side of things; RJ has not shown an elite quality, it's just potential.

I am not intimately familiar with things that are going on with Toronto but to just roll with the 3rd banana marker is just way off. OG was tied for 4th on his team in shots per game and the guy he was tied with is Scotty Barnes, someone who the Raptors are building around and they want HIM to have more touches. OG was 6th on his team in Usage.

Let's do that again. OG was arguably 5th in shots taken per game and 6th in usage for the Raptors. He wants more within the offense, so trading up to a spot like RJ's would be a HUGE jump. In a reduced role last year, RJ shot 16 times per game compared to 13 from OG. Usage? 19% versus 26% for RJ. Completely different roles for both players, they are not nearly compatible.

RJ is barely an average offensive player when you consider how poorly he shoots as well as the TO's and he is worse on defense. He absolutely has unmet potential but the reality of what he currently has done is much less than OG is you consider both sides of the ball.

RJ is elite at getting to the rim. Not finishing but getting there. OG averaged 2 more minutes per game, 3 less shots and 3 less points. RJ passed more, rebounded more, played more total minutes (OG missed 6 more games than RJ).

Here is per 36 to even it out:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2023_per_minute.html

OG is not that much better overall. He just has a different skillset. My main question is this, Toronto is now rebuilding. They opened up opportunity for OG. If they believed he was so great, why are they open to trading him instead of using him at 26 as a relatively young building block?

Because it looks like he will leave. I don’t know what Toronto is doing but it looks like they don’t extend any of the players that are actually good for their team. FVV, Siakam, Gary Trent. This is a Raptors thing, not an OG particular circumstance.

RJ has a finishing problem. And shooting from everywhere problem. RJ has started to figure out some of the passing thing - his assist to TO suggests he has a ton of room for growth - but has a long way to go.

For me, when a guy is on an all NBA team for something, that is a big separator. OG is literally one of the best 3&D big wing players in the league and that’s why everyone would love to have him on team.

You and I rate or weigh potential differently. There is no doubt RJ has a ton of potential. When you are not a particularly good passer or finisher, it dampens the potential IMHO

OG is literally one of the most versatile defenders in the league and he is not below average on the other side of the court. I can’t say that about RJ and why I can’t equate them right now.

To me OG is, as you said and elite 3 and D guy. So was Raja Bell, Robert Horry, Iguodala....he will fit almost seemless on any team-as long as he accepts his role.

RJ probablybwill never benthebelite defender OG is seen as, but as I proved before the defense was there for 2 seasons then fell off for some reason.

All I'm all, I'm investing in RJ unless the deal for a real killer comes around. And by that I mean someone who not only puts up the stats but is a guy who is dependable, clutch, and has that Jordan/Kobe type of mentality. Then I will attach picks, money, players, whatever to RJ.

But I also think RJ can become that player. So my opinion based on my experience and eye test...if it was me as a GM, I am putting my trust in him. I think he can be special.