HofstraBBall wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:This is ridiculous. Just rewatched the Denver game. Knicks are getting blown out in the first, then Randle starts making 3's and it's called close game. In the fourth, Knicks are again in danger of getting blown out and Randle gets 3 steals that lead directly to points and wins the game. Has Obi ever been able to put the team on his back and carry them to a win? I mean in a non summer league/ non end of season game? Absolute ridiculous we are even talking about this. Y'all need to get off the stats pages and watch the games.

Should have dumped his deal after the Denver game

Yeah, makes it seem like that's an every game occurrence from Julius. Obi? When was the last time you saw Julius have a two-way performance like that? At least Obi has the built in excuse of not having a lot of minutes.

Ah, eating up the Randle hate bait.
RJ 6-19, Brunson 2-13, IQ and Obi 0% shooting!. Yes you read that right.
But the Randle hate club rewinding the tape to see where Randle did not get back on D. Lmao

And what are you talking about? Obi has a two way game and puts the team on his back all the time. Problem is, it's on UK fan forum dreams. More minutes?
True. He needed another 19 minutes last night. Easily would have doubled his production. So 0-10?

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Alpha1971 wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:This is ridiculous. Just rewatched the Denver game. Knicks are getting blown out in the first, then Randle starts making 3's and it's called close game. In the fourth, Knicks are again in danger of getting blown out and Randle gets 3 steals that lead directly to points and wins the game. Has Obi ever been able to put the team on his back and carry them to a win? I mean in a non summer league/ non end of season game? Absolute ridiculous we are even talking about this. Y'all need to get off the stats pages and watch the games.

Should have dumped his deal after the Denver game

Yeah, makes it seem like that's an every game occurrence from Julius. Obi? When was the last time you saw Julius have a two-way performance like that? At least Obi has the built in excuse of not having a lot of minutes.

Ah, eating up the Randle hate bait.
RJ 6-19, Brunson 2-13, IQ and Obi 0% shooting!. Yes you read that right.
But the Randle hate club rewinding the tape to see where Randle did not get back on D. Lmao

And what are you talking about? Obi has a two way game and puts the team on his back all the time. Problem is, it's on UK fan forum dreams. More minutes?
True. He needed another 19 minutes last night. Easily would have doubled his production. So 0-10?

No club is rewinding the tape on that game. A lot of guys sucked and I'm not putting myself through that. You want to keep riding the spin zone to nowhere, keep at it. Hope that tornado eventually spins you to a place of happiness. I can guarantee it's not taking you to anywhere resembling a Championship or playoff berth.

But you constantly hating on our best player is? Smh

jskinny35 wrote:It's a long season - you're posting this after the first game - which we lost?

Randle played well tonight... but how about we see at least 5 games (with us winning some of them) before you defend your crush.

How about now?

jskinny35 wrote:

Panos wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:It's a long season - you're posting this after the first game - which we lost?

Randle played well tonight... but how about we see at least 5 games (with us winning some of them) before you defend your crush.

How about now?

So you had to wait the past two months until we finally got a mini-win streak... I guess my response would still be that with Randle there are always peaks and valleys (as with most players) - but with Randle they seem to be higher and lower. Happy he's playing harder but we've had 4+ seasons to observe Randle and it's pretty clear he is what he is - a hard working and very good player that is quite streaky, hot headed and most comfortable playing at a 1996 pace and iso play style.

He is still the best we have but that doesn't mean we should anchor to him. It's not his fault he's in the wrong role but I wouldn't look at the past few games and conclude he's turned a corner and is going to develop further. If so - what would you say about the games prior to that or even the most recent tantrum that got him booted in the 2nd half? Thibs refers to him as the engine for our team but it's not like a Honda Civic that runs smoothly and is solid/dependable - which is really what we need. I acknowledge RJ hasn't shown it either.

So still think we should sell high as don't think he will be consistent and maybe it's time to package him with an RJ to find one higher quality player or draft pick.

I've said it before. It's not that I'm married to Randle. If there is a trade or there that improves the team , by all means pull the trigger. The point of this thread was that he has value. People complaining about his contract was silly. He's got *half* a max salary, . The man can dominate a game.
And i was sick of hearing people say to trade him for a second round pick or a salary dump. Assuming last year there was something personal affecting his play and it wouldn't continue into this year (which neither you nor i knew) That's not good asset management.

It’s like someone saying rose and EF are better players than deuce. I need to know what you call better before I can answer. Because depending on the person’s definition of good, rose and EF might be better than deuce. Rose is more established and can beat his man off the dribble (deuce can’t yet). EF broke the Knicks 3 pt record (deuce shoots air balls). By this definition deuce is a terrible starter or rotation player compared to rose and EF.

By the way, this ship has sailed but I’m giving you a hypothetical response. What if Obi had the same impact on the team (offensively) like deuce has now (defensively)? If deuce didnt get the playing time he’s getting now, the same fans would ask the same questions and have the same doubt. Deuce is not better than rose, EF or cam. But if we stuck with that and never gave him mins we wouldn’t see this 4 game winning streak.

You don’t always have to replace a player with a better player. That’s video game management. My thinking back then was Obi could have the same impact but from a different skill set like providing easy buckets. I’m just saying deuce looks totally different with consistent PT. And sometimes young players need that. Obi is also a late bloomer. Wasn’t this good until late in his college career. So that was my motivation then. That ship is slowly sailing now.

blkexec wrote:Fish not running from your question or whoever asked me the original question on Obi and if he’s a starting PF on a good team. I’m paraphrasing the question a bit.

It’s like someone saying rose and EF are better players than deuce. I need to know what you call better before I can answer. Because depending on the person’s definition of good, rose and EF might be better than deuce. Rose is more established and can beat his man off the dribble (deuce can’t yet). EF broke the Knicks 3 pt record (deuce shoots air balls). By this definition deuce is a terrible starter or rotation player compared to rose and EF.

By the way, this ship has sailed but I’m giving you a hypothetical response. What if Obi had the same impact on the team (offensively) like deuce has now (defensively)? If deuce didnt get the playing time he’s getting now, the same fans would ask the same questions and have the same doubt. Deuce is not better than rose, EF or cam. But if we stuck with that and never gave him mins we wouldn’t see this 4 game winning streak.

You don’t always have to replace a player with a better player. That’s video game management. My thinking back then was Obi could have the same impact but from a different skill set like providing easy buckets. I’m just saying deuce looks totally different with consistent PT. And sometimes young players need that. Obi is also a late bloomer. Wasn’t this good until late in his college career. So that was my motivation then. That ship is slowly sailing now.

You have always argued that Thibs does not give the unproven players enough playing time to prove themselves. Some on here, including myself, have argued that a player has to show something when given the chance. No matter the amount of minutes. Also that coaches have a better idea who deserves playing time due to their insight in practice. IQ, Grimes and now Deuce are proof of that. Are you now claiming Obi needs more than 18 minutes a game for three years to show more? Let alone, by giving him the minutes of our best player/All Star who is much better than him?

Btw, imho, a player is better based on CONSISTENT production/contribution to a team over other options. Rose was a much better PG than Deuce last year. He was not been that this year. Reason why Deuce is playing.

jskinny35 wrote:

Panos wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:

Panos wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:It's a long season - you're posting this after the first game - which we lost?

Randle played well tonight... but how about we see at least 5 games (with us winning some of them) before you defend your crush.

How about now?

So you had to wait the past two months until we finally got a mini-win streak... I guess my response would still be that with Randle there are always peaks and valleys (as with most players) - but with Randle they seem to be higher and lower. Happy he's playing harder but we've had 4+ seasons to observe Randle and it's pretty clear he is what he is - a hard working and very good player that is quite streaky, hot headed and most comfortable playing at a 1996 pace and iso play style.

He is still the best we have but that doesn't mean we should anchor to him. It's not his fault he's in the wrong role but I wouldn't look at the past few games and conclude he's turned a corner and is going to develop further. If so - what would you say about the games prior to that or even the most recent tantrum that got him booted in the 2nd half? Thibs refers to him as the engine for our team but it's not like a Honda Civic that runs smoothly and is solid/dependable - which is really what we need. I acknowledge RJ hasn't shown it either.

So still think we should sell high as don't think he will be consistent and maybe it's time to package him with an RJ to find one higher quality player or draft pick.

I've said it before. It's not that I'm married to Randle. If there is a trade or there that improves the team , by all means pull the trigger. The point of this thread was that he has value. People complaining about his contract was silly. He's got *half* a max salary, . The man can dominate a game.
And i was sick of hearing people say to trade him for a second round pick or a salary dump. Assuming last year there was something personal affecting his play and it wouldn't continue into this year (which neither you nor i knew) That's not good asset management.

This is where I get stuck with Randle - he should have decent value but are 1/2 of us undervaluing him vs the other half that may be overvaluing him? I ask because it seems when potential trade proposals are discussed - Randle's value appears between "we need to attach a 1st to trade him" or we can trade him for another multiyear contract with a lesser producing player (eg Hayward). I obviously don't know the truth but if is so good - how come other teams haven't been trying to get him from us? Again maybe they have but it just seems unclear to me.

I will say he produces and I don't think his contract is bad or the issue IMO. Being erratic production-wise is one thing - but I think some of the "dump Randle for a pick or salary dump" is more about frustration with his slow game pace, iso ball, inconsistent defense and tantrums he exhibits periodically. I agree about good asset management and wonder what his value actually is...

Two first round picks and a decent young player? ( as of Dec 13. That can easily change by next week.) I can't think of any contending team who'd be interested that has that package. I'd say Lakers, but I've read they're trying to open space space. Maybe the Clippers do Marcus Morris, Luke Kennard, Brandon Boston and picks and the 27 and 29 first rounders for Randle and the Detroit protected pick?

But he isn't going anywhere.

HofstraBBall wrote:

blkexec wrote:Fish not running from your question or whoever asked me the original question on Obi and if he’s a starting PF on a good team. I’m paraphrasing the question a bit.

It’s like someone saying rose and EF are better players than deuce. I need to know what you call better before I can answer. Because depending on the person’s definition of good, rose and EF might be better than deuce. Rose is more established and can beat his man off the dribble (deuce can’t yet). EF broke the Knicks 3 pt record (deuce shoots air balls). By this definition deuce is a terrible starter or rotation player compared to rose and EF.

By the way, this ship has sailed but I’m giving you a hypothetical response. What if Obi had the same impact on the team (offensively) like deuce has now (defensively)? If deuce didnt get the playing time he’s getting now, the same fans would ask the same questions and have the same doubt. Deuce is not better than rose, EF or cam. But if we stuck with that and never gave him mins we wouldn’t see this 4 game winning streak.

You don’t always have to replace a player with a better player. That’s video game management. My thinking back then was Obi could have the same impact but from a different skill set like providing easy buckets. I’m just saying deuce looks totally different with consistent PT. And sometimes young players need that. Obi is also a late bloomer. Wasn’t this good until late in his college career. So that was my motivation then. That ship is slowly sailing now.

You have always argued that Thibs does not give the unproven players enough playing time to prove themselves. Some on here, including myself, have argued that a player has to show something when given the chance. No matter the amount of minutes. Also that coaches have a better idea who deserves playing time due to their insight in practice. IQ, Grimes and now Deuce are proof of that. Are you now claiming Obi needs more than 18 minutes a game for three years to show more? Let alone, by giving him the minutes of our best player/All Star who is much better than him?

Btw, imho, a player is better based on CONSISTENT production/contribution to a team over other options. Rose was a much better PG than Deuce last year. He was not been that this year. Reason why Deuce is playing.

So I've had SO MANY DISCUSSIONS on this, I'm confused now. What players did I complain about? I must be getting old.

I complained about Deuce not getting PT when Kemba was removed. Instead Thibs went with Burks, who I like. But after 10 or so games, it was clear that Burks wasn't the answer. So yes I complained about Thibs going with are staying with Burks at PG, who's a SG / SF.

I complained about Obi not getting PT, and thats directed at the FO who drafted him. But I did want to see Obi and Randle play together since we drafted Obi #8 and Randle is our best player so he's not going anywhere, and Thibs refuse to try that combination, until pre-season and the beginning of this season.

Next comment about unproven players. You know who was UNPROVEN at PG? Burks. So I don't think you have your story right because clearly he gave Burks time at PG and he never played PG at the NBA level. Probably at the college level, but I haven't done that level of research. So that can't be true. Hopefully I cleaned that up for you. That way we can have a decent discussion. If I'm wrong, and sound like I'm going back and forth, let me know. But I'm trying to be as consistent as possible. Kinda hard when a discussion is finally over, but you as an example, brings it back to life, while mis-quoting me at the same time. Kinda exhausting if you ask me, but thats what forums are for I guess. Its very easy to mix up things because different people in this chat complains about thibs. But all the complaints are really slightly different.

Next you claim a player has to show something when given a chance? Thats false. Thibs clearly saw Burks was not the answer and didn't show that he's a competent PG, yet he stayed in that roll for the rest of the season. So that statement is only true in your head, not according to Thibs. We also don't see what happens in practice. I think I mentioned this before. So none of us can talk about something we can't see. Nobody is in these practices to see anything. We all (including you) are fabricating just to make your point valid. If you work on the coaching staff, then I'm all ears. Otherwise this is just bar room talk between fans, without any facts to back it up.

Next comment. IQ, Grimes and Deuce are proof that they did what exactly in practice? Please share some facts on this. Otherwise you / we are just guessing Thibs does this in practice because thats our expectations of Thibs and any NBA coach. I get it. But again, none of us are in these practices.

Next comment. Please tell me when and where did I say Obi now needs 18 minutes a game for three years? I said why draft a player at #8 just to play 15 mins or less as a backup? The FO is very savy and I know for a fact, if the pick was to backup Randle, they would've traded the #8 pick and moved down in the draft. Thats what history tells me so thats what I go by with this FO. Thats what I said. I also said, that ship is slowly sailing now. Randle is playing at an all star level. Obi hasn't shown enough in the little minutes he got. I do blame his regression on the coaching staff and I blame the FO in selecting him. This is called asset management. Right now, can we get a #8 pick for Obi? I will wait on your answer..................... Thats called bad asset management. That blame is shared between the coaching staff (I will stop saying Thibs cause it's now being used as a weapon). But it's between the coaching staff and the FO for bad asset management across the board.