TripleThreat wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote: Frank N was not locking down Young. Because he's still cooking teams in the playoffs right now and he's on a clear hot streak. You can try to contain him, but it's a team effort and you need the personnel. The Knicks didn't have the personnel.

Did Thibs bench Frank N? Or did Ntilikina bench himself with his ****ty play? Go on, answer that.

Oh yeah the synergy looked great against the Hawks when Elf was on the floor a -12 +\- or Rose playing 40 minutes looking tired

Would it have been nice to have another VIABLE option in the playoffs to throw at Trae Young? Yes.

Did Frank N play in such a way this entire season and across his entire Knicks career where he stepped up to become that option? No.

Payton and Rose were overexposed because the Knicks just didn't have the personnel. They don't have the personnel because Frank Ntilikina has not improved and has not stepped up to become an integral part of this franchise.

I don't get it, did Frank Ntilikina meet some of you after a game years ago and buy you guys a round of Icees or something? Did he buy you guys some overpriced nachos and pat some of you on the head or some **** like that? Where is this blanket excuse making and defense of such low effort/zero integrity type play coming from here?

If Ntilikina could defend Trae Young in the same overwhelming over the top bright lights neon sign type manner as some here are defending craptastic effort from Frankie The Jogging King, then the Knicks might have won more than one game.

Did Thibs rob Frank N's ability to be a VIABLE option on the roster? Or did Ntilikina tank that usefulness to this franchise all by himself with his ****ty play? Go on, answer that.

Its not just Thibs. He couldn't earn a consistent role under Fizdale or Miller either

TripleThreat wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote: Frank N was not locking down Young. Because he's still cooking teams in the playoffs right now and he's on a clear hot streak. You can try to contain him, but it's a team effort and you need the personnel. The Knicks didn't have the personnel.

Did Thibs bench Frank N? Or did Ntilikina bench himself with his ****ty play? Go on, answer that.

Oh yeah the synergy looked great against the Hawks when Elf was on the floor a -12 +\- or Rose playing 40 minutes looking tired

Would it have been nice to have another VIABLE option in the playoffs to throw at Trae Young? Yes.

Did Frank N play in such a way this entire season and across his entire Knicks career where he stepped up to become that option? No.

Payton and Rose were overexposed because the Knicks just didn't have the personnel. They don't have the personnel because Frank Ntilikina has not improved and has not stepped up to become an integral part of this franchise.

I don't get it, did Frank Ntilikina meet some of you after a game years ago and buy you guys a round of Icees or something? Did he buy you guys some overpriced nachos and pat some of you on the head or some **** like that? Where is this blanket excuse making and defense of such low effort/zero integrity type play coming from here?

If Ntilikina could defend Trae Young in the same overwhelming over the top bright lights neon sign type manner as some here are defending craptastic effort from Frankie The Jogging King, then the Knicks might have won more than one game.

Did Thibs rob Frank N's ability to be a VIABLE option on the roster? Or did Ntilikina tank that usefulness to this franchise all by himself with his ****ty play? Go on, answer that.

Funny how Ntilikina was used, wasn't it?

Oh, sitting on the bench ALL GAME LONG watching Trae Young shred the Knicks. So Thibs, who you say doesn't trust him, says hey kid - there's seconds left on the clock - just step in and stop Trey Young who's on fire (and if you can't do that well, I don't trust you anymore).

Barkley gets it. Reggie Miller gets it. The haters don't get it.

In the playoffs, if you are losing you pull a Ben Simmons for a Maxey because you don't care how you win - WIN at any cost.

You're telling me that Ntilikina who has a history of locking down guys like Irving, Doncic, Young and others was just too much of a stretch.

No, it was a message, "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. This organization will never give you a fair shake."

This has always been about politics more than Frankie's talent.

I pointed to "some random game" because it was the only extended minutes I remember him playing and he looked much improved. Thibs praised his work ethic in practice all season and turned to Frank at the biggest moment of the season, so I don't think the issue is him not getting it done, just that Thibs decided to go with veteran Payton all season for good or ill.

fwk00 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote: Frank N was not locking down Young. Because he's still cooking teams in the playoffs right now and he's on a clear hot streak. You can try to contain him, but it's a team effort and you need the personnel. The Knicks didn't have the personnel.

Did Thibs bench Frank N? Or did Ntilikina bench himself with his ****ty play? Go on, answer that.

Oh yeah the synergy looked great against the Hawks when Elf was on the floor a -12 +\- or Rose playing 40 minutes looking tired

Would it have been nice to have another VIABLE option in the playoffs to throw at Trae Young? Yes.

Did Frank N play in such a way this entire season and across his entire Knicks career where he stepped up to become that option? No.

Payton and Rose were overexposed because the Knicks just didn't have the personnel. They don't have the personnel because Frank Ntilikina has not improved and has not stepped up to become an integral part of this franchise.

I don't get it, did Frank Ntilikina meet some of you after a game years ago and buy you guys a round of Icees or something? Did he buy you guys some overpriced nachos and pat some of you on the head or some **** like that? Where is this blanket excuse making and defense of such low effort/zero integrity type play coming from here?

If Ntilikina could defend Trae Young in the same overwhelming over the top bright lights neon sign type manner as some here are defending craptastic effort from Frankie The Jogging King, then the Knicks might have won more than one game.

Did Thibs rob Frank N's ability to be a VIABLE option on the roster? Or did Ntilikina tank that usefulness to this franchise all by himself with his ****ty play? Go on, answer that.

Funny how Ntilikina was used, wasn't it?

Oh, sitting on the bench ALL GAME LONG watching Trae Young shred the Knicks. So Thibs, who you say doesn't trust him, says hey kid - there's seconds left on the clock - just step in and stop Trey Young who's on fire (and if you can't do that well, I don't trust you anymore).

Barkley gets it. Reggie Miller gets it. The haters don't get it.

In the playoffs, if you are losing you pull a Ben Simmons for a Maxey because you don't care how you win - WIN at any cost.

You're telling me that Ntilikina who has a history of locking down guys like Irving, Doncic, Young and others was just too much of a stretch.

No, it was a message, "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. This organization will never give you a fair shake."

This has always been about politics more than Frankie's talent.

You don't get the difference between trust of playing time and regular rotation and the downsides of having a **** offense and injecting Frank into it just to get some time to try to keep up with Trae for which no one else in the playoffs has done VERSUS a cameo 5 second appearance that was maybe an outlier and just enough to warrant a Frank minute cause it was an extreme situation?

And then some of you expect that to be all thrown out the window the second that Trae Young walks on the court cause Frank maybe once played well in spot games some time previously in his career? This your idea of how culture and everything else on down is done?

We are not really talking about a team who was destined to make real waves this playoffs. So throw out everything you have built for maybe the odd chance that Frank can hopefully do something (while ignoring the downside of an adding him to an already atrocious offense) for like maybe a microscopic chance at slowing down Trae (which is ****ing near impossible cause no one has stepped up to explain how to do it without Mitch and having Noel hobbling, Taj ain't doing it at the C spot) while demoralizing the rest of the warriors who got you to the playoffs? That would be a nice Fuck You

I don't want to go into a real battle with some of you cause you would wilt like a dandelion in a week long, climate change induced heat wave in a hot second

The arguments I am reading are some of the weakest put out there

martin wrote:The Knicks overachieve the entire season. Thibs asks and pushes his guys to overachieve the entire season. Thibs plays certain guys HEAVY the entire season, asking them to buy in and lead and overachieve. Thibs outlines exactly what is expected of EVERYONE and they buy in. Thibs gives each of his players a chance at a rotation spot throughout the year, lets them know what it will take to keep it, and makes it known that the rotation will be just about 10 guys. Thibs asks his entire team to buy in to his exact philosophy the entire year and it pays off for organization, team, individual players, coaching staff for the entire season.

And then some of you expect that to be all thrown out the window the second that Trae Young walks on the court cause Frank maybe once played well in spot games some time previously in his career? This your idea of how culture and everything else on down is done?

We are not really talking about a team who was destined to make real waves this playoffs. So throw out everything you have built for maybe the odd chance that Frank can hopefully do something (while ignoring the downside of an adding him to an already atrocious offense) for like maybe a microscopic chance at slowing down Trae (which is ****ing near impossible cause no one has stepped up to explain how to do it without Mitch and having Noel hobbling, Taj ain't doing it at the C spot) while demoralizing the rest of the warriors who got you to the playoffs? That would be a nice Fuck You

I don't want to go into a real battle with some of you cause you would wilt like a dandelion in a week long, climate change induced heat wave in a hot second

The arguments I am reading are some of the weakest put out there

Frank has been on the team from the beginning of the season. I get your point about sticking with the rotation, but playing Obi at the 5 or Frank are things that Thibs at least tried earlier. At some point you have to try something different If you keep losing.

gradyandrew wrote:

martin wrote:The Knicks overachieve the entire season. Thibs asks and pushes his guys to overachieve the entire season. Thibs plays certain guys HEAVY the entire season, asking them to buy in and lead and overachieve. Thibs outlines exactly what is expected of EVERYONE and they buy in. Thibs gives each of his players a chance at a rotation spot throughout the year, lets them know what it will take to keep it, and makes it known that the rotation will be just about 10 guys. Thibs asks his entire team to buy in to his exact philosophy the entire year and it pays off for organization, team, individual players, coaching staff for the entire season.

And then some of you expect that to be all thrown out the window the second that Trae Young walks on the court cause Frank maybe once played well in spot games some time previously in his career? This your idea of how culture and everything else on down is done?

We are not really talking about a team who was destined to make real waves this playoffs. So throw out everything you have built for maybe the odd chance that Frank can hopefully do something (while ignoring the downside of an adding him to an already atrocious offense) for like maybe a microscopic chance at slowing down Trae (which is ****ing near impossible cause no one has stepped up to explain how to do it without Mitch and having Noel hobbling, Taj ain't doing it at the C spot) while demoralizing the rest of the warriors who got you to the playoffs? That would be a nice Fuck You

I don't want to go into a real battle with some of you cause you would wilt like a dandelion in a week long, climate change induced heat wave in a hot second

The arguments I am reading are some of the weakest put out there

Frank has been on the team from the beginning of the season. I get your point about sticking with the rotation, but playing Obi at the 5 or Frank are things that Thibs at least tried earlier. At some point you have to try something different If you keep losing.

Please tell us how playing Obi at the 5 solves Trae/Capella.

I will hold my breath and stop laughing long enough to let hear you out.

wargames wrote:

martin wrote:

wargames wrote:

martin wrote:The Knicks overachieve the entire season. Thibs asks and pushes his guys to overachieve the entire season. Thibs plays certain guys HEAVY the entire season, asking them to buy in and lead and overachieve. Thibs outlines exactly what is expected of EVERYONE and they buy in. Thibs gives each of his players a chance at a rotation spot throughout the year, lets them know what it will take to keep it, and makes it known that the rotation will be just about 10 guys. Thibs asks his entire team to buy in to his exact philosophy the entire year and it pays off for organization, team, individual players, coaching staff for the entire season.

And then some of you expect that to be all thrown out the window the second that Trae Young walks on the court cause Frank maybe once played well in spot games some time previously in his career? This your idea of how culture and everything else on down is done?

We are not really talking about a team who was destined to make real waves this playoffs. So throw out everything you have built for maybe the odd chance that Frank can hopefully do something (while ignoring the downside of an adding him to an already atrocious offense) for like maybe a microscopic chance at slowing down Trae (which is ****ing near impossible cause no one has stepped up to explain how to do it without Mitch and having Noel hobbling, Taj ain't doing it at the C spot) while demoralizing the rest of the warriors who got you to the playoffs? That would be a nice Fuck You

I don't want to go into a real battle with some of you cause you would wilt like a dandelion in a week long, climate change induced heat wave in a hot second

The arguments I am reading are some of the weakest put out there

No offense but it’s playoff basketball. The whole point is to find mismatches and take advantage of them.

What your talking about is the same liability that got the Jazz taken out because they refused to sit Gobert. This isn’t a college program where culture attracts recruits. It’s the league where winning trumps everything……… EVERYTHING!

Add to that a bunch of these horses he rode with into the playoffs were on one year contracts and yes, I don’t think Thibs coached well.

If you think Frank was the key to shutting down Atlanta's offense while kick starting the Knicks' offense, go with it.

But wear it proud and ANNOUNCE that Frank was the key to the whole series that the Knicks and everyone else missed

The NBA is also not the Throw anything against the wall to see if it works league either.

What you’re saying doesn’t make sense. I am saying that in a situation where a PG is killing you over a 5 games. Not putting your best perimeter defender on him to at least see if that could slow him down (except in game 2 for less than a minute to end the half and the game) is bad coaching. That’s not throwing something against the wall to see if it works. What Thibs actually did would fall under that. Let’s put Frank on Trae at the end of game 2 when the team is in foul trouble and see if he can stop him is a piss poor plan and in a lot of ways set him up to fail.

The KEY to the whole series was a lot of stuff you can point at bad coaching to explain. From over relying on Payton, to putting Bullock on Trae which allowed him to rest on defense, to having no adjustment for the fact that the defense kept pushing Randle right, to what I assume is Thibs giving Randle the green light through the worst playoff shooting performance in NBA history. To what I assume was a strategic choice to not have bigger players try to get switch offensively to try get better matchups. COY be damn Thibs did a **** job coaching the Knicks in that series and how he utilized Frank was a part of it.

Thibs tried Frank in the regular season and it failed. What makes you think that this next time out against a team that is planning against you and a very high level team will work this time?

Again, the theory that you must throw everything against the wall to see if it has a chance to stick is an odd strategy

martin wrote:

wargames wrote:

martin wrote:

wargames wrote:

martin wrote:The Knicks overachieve the entire season. Thibs asks and pushes his guys to overachieve the entire season. Thibs plays certain guys HEAVY the entire season, asking them to buy in and lead and overachieve. Thibs outlines exactly what is expected of EVERYONE and they buy in. Thibs gives each of his players a chance at a rotation spot throughout the year, lets them know what it will take to keep it, and makes it known that the rotation will be just about 10 guys. Thibs asks his entire team to buy in to his exact philosophy the entire year and it pays off for organization, team, individual players, coaching staff for the entire season.

And then some of you expect that to be all thrown out the window the second that Trae Young walks on the court cause Frank maybe once played well in spot games some time previously in his career? This your idea of how culture and everything else on down is done?

We are not really talking about a team who was destined to make real waves this playoffs. So throw out everything you have built for maybe the odd chance that Frank can hopefully do something (while ignoring the downside of an adding him to an already atrocious offense) for like maybe a microscopic chance at slowing down Trae (which is ****ing near impossible cause no one has stepped up to explain how to do it without Mitch and having Noel hobbling, Taj ain't doing it at the C spot) while demoralizing the rest of the warriors who got you to the playoffs? That would be a nice Fuck You

I don't want to go into a real battle with some of you cause you would wilt like a dandelion in a week long, climate change induced heat wave in a hot second

The arguments I am reading are some of the weakest put out there

No offense but it’s playoff basketball. The whole point is to find mismatches and take advantage of them.

What your talking about is the same liability that got the Jazz taken out because they refused to sit Gobert. This isn’t a college program where culture attracts recruits. It’s the league where winning trumps everything……… EVERYTHING!

Add to that a bunch of these horses he rode with into the playoffs were on one year contracts and yes, I don’t think Thibs coached well.

If you think Frank was the key to shutting down Atlanta's offense while kick starting the Knicks' offense, go with it.

But wear it proud and ANNOUNCE that Frank was the key to the whole series that the Knicks and everyone else missed

The NBA is also not the Throw anything against the wall to see if it works league either.

What you’re saying doesn’t make sense. I am saying that in a situation where a PG is killing you over a 5 games. Not putting your best perimeter defender on him to at least see if that could slow him down (except in game 2 for less than a minute to end the half and the game) is bad coaching. That’s not throwing something against the wall to see if it works. What Thibs actually did would fall under that. Let’s put Frank on Trae at the end of game 2 when the team is in foul trouble and see if he can stop him is a piss poor plan and in a lot of ways set him up to fail.

The KEY to the whole series was a lot of stuff you can point at bad coaching to explain. From over relying on Payton, to putting Bullock on Trae which allowed him to rest on defense, to having no adjustment for the fact that the defense kept pushing Randle right, to what I assume is Thibs giving Randle the green light through the worst playoff shooting performance in NBA history. To what I assume was a strategic choice to not have bigger players try to get switch offensively to try get better matchups. COY be damn Thibs did a **** job coaching the Knicks in that series and how he utilized Frank was a part of it.

Thibs tried Frank in the regular season and it failed. What makes you think that this next time out against a team that is planning against you and a very high level team will work this time?

Again, the theory that you must throw everything against the wall to see if it has a chance to stick is an odd strategy

Well if he wasn’t overplaying Payton maybe he could have

The playoffs are a different beast but we’re arguing semantics. What you call “throw everything against the wall”, I call “making adjustments to try and create or recover from a mismatch”.

Thibs is a flawed coach and making playoff adjustments is one of his issues. He’s too much of a strict mindset to make it work. A strength in one scenario (the regular season) can be and was a weakness in another one (the playoffs).

Nalod wrote:Some based on the time of posts are literally losing sleep over Frank.
THe longer ATL runs in my mind the less egregious job Thibs did. really guys, team loses and in the aftermath call him out for “Well he should have tried………..”
As if it would have worked? COY, incredible turn around and we then with no basis say “he did. A bad job?”
Well, he did lose!!!!
Of course he could have done better. But he did the best he could at the moment.

Frank was not saving our asses. Sure it might have been nice to try him but “nice” is not enough.
Bring frank back? Only if one thinks he still improves. Not me, not anyone here. Its on coaches.
We are not paying him 8mm. He has to the think here is a better opportunity at a lessor number than elsewhere.
My take is a guess as good as anyone else’s.

My critique is 2020 hindsight and watching the series over. Also feeling better about the almost sweep because Atlanta beat better teams doesn’t take away from the flaws the Knicks have. That’s like being broke, having your wife leave you because you are broke, but you later seeing she is dating a Millionaire. so you justify it as she just likes Millionaires, and take no responsibility to go and get a job.

I don’t think anyone here expects Frank back, but I am not going to ignore Thibs coaching like Crap and falling into the same short comings he had his whole coaching career. Part of which is he is too rigid and that lets opponents better game plan on how to beat him. Playoff basketball is all adjustments. Right now what Atlanta is doing is they start to literally play faster in the 4th quarter which throws opposing teams off and let’s them comeback when they are behind. It’s one of the reasons Nate is so gung ho about rotations and not playing short with it in the playoffs because he needs his players having enough energy to make a push late. That was an adjustment he picked up in Philly because they realized the sixers (especially Embiid) get tired after the third. The playoffs are all about adjustments and experimentation.

TripleThreat wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote: Frank N was not locking down Young. Because he's still cooking teams in the playoffs right now and he's on a clear hot streak. You can try to contain him, but it's a team effort and you need the personnel. The Knicks didn't have the personnel.

Did Thibs bench Frank N? Or did Ntilikina bench himself with his ****ty play? Go on, answer that.

Oh yeah the synergy looked great against the Hawks when Elf was on the floor a -12 +\- or Rose playing 40 minutes looking tired

Would it have been nice to have another VIABLE option in the playoffs to throw at Trae Young? Yes.

Did Frank N play in such a way this entire season and across his entire Knicks career where he stepped up to become that option? No.

Payton and Rose were overexposed because the Knicks just didn't have the personnel. They don't have the personnel because Frank Ntilikina has not improved and has not stepped up to become an integral part of this franchise.

I don't get it, did Frank Ntilikina meet some of you after a game years ago and buy you guys a round of Icees or something? Did he buy you guys some overpriced nachos and pat some of you on the head or some **** like that? Where is this blanket excuse making and defense of such low effort/zero integrity type play coming from here?

If Ntilikina could defend Trae Young in the same overwhelming over the top bright lights neon sign type manner as some here are defending craptastic effort from Frankie The Jogging King, then the Knicks might have won more than one game.

Did Thibs rob Frank N's ability to be a VIABLE option on the roster? Or did Ntilikina tank that usefulness to this franchise all by himself with his ****ty play? Go on, answer that.

Again you have no substantive argument for Elf getting to start the first 2 games of the playoffs while Frank was on the bench and then Thibs playing an aging Rose way too much the final 3 games when he was a 6th man during the regular season again with Frank, a significantly better defender, on the bench watching Trae run circles around Rose

You just have lots of Frank sucks exposition