jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:I would take Ben in heartbeart. You guys who say he's trash obviously dont understand him or watch basketball. He's got a couple of big flaws in his game that have been exposed repeatedly and Ben isnt the first "star" to be exposed in such a way. He's not a scorer. He gets 15 a game because he's big and fast and so good at creating for others. He's got a role in the offense and being an option isnt really part of it.

He's one of the best defensive players in the league and truly an impact player there. A top 4 league defender in any generation who can guard 1-5.

He would be an amazing point forward on the Knicks. You put him at 3, let him guard the toughest guys and he runs the offense which allows a team like the Knicks to play a non-PG shooting type like IQ at PG for 30+ minutes a game because Ben is running the offense.

Something like Obi/Knox and 3 FRPs (really a low ball as our picks suck) would suck for Phili (they would want 5 FRPs and IQ) which isnt worth it as Knicks wouldnt have any cap space/picks/assets to build anything better than a good defensive squad that cant score and gets bounced in the 2nd round every year (hey! Like Phili!)

But think about a starting line up of: IQ/RJ/Simmons/Julius/Mitch
Thats the best defensive team in the league and if IQ/RJ/Julius sustain their shooting you have good spacing.

Anyway its fart in the wind but Ben Simmons is absolutely an impact player. He's not a finisher but what he does gets you to there every time. There are not a lot of players good enough to do that. The only thing that would put the Knicks in the talks is their cap allows them more options than most other teams.

We were tops in the league in defense without an overpaid chucklehead (who can't SHOOT A FUCKING FREE THROW AT 30-40MM A YEAR) and we were eliminated in the first round.

Who's not watching basketball?

Not to mention trae young blew by him at will, causing Embiid to have to step up and cover the paint leaving his man open for the LOB.

Simmons and Embiid is a horrible pairing.

Anybody playing the PG position and can't shoot, is a clear liability, we saw that with payton and frank.

You can't win in the playoffs with a point fwd and no real pg, Labron still needed wade and kyrie, and as we saw with KD, he was completely exhausted by the end of the 4th, same thing that happen to Randle.

So the best thing for BEN would be a Roster full of snipers

fishmike wrote:literally the first year Simmons plays the sixers go from 54 losses to 52 wins and have been good since. Classic example of fans not appreciating a guy for what he does, instead they hate for what he cant do. Like when folks around here said crazy **** like "we would be better if Melo wanted to pass or play defense"

Ben is 24 and a 3x all star for a reason. Of course "we were already good at defense" so who needs him. Following the same logic we were also the 3rd best 3 point shooting team so we dont need shooters either. Wait what do we need again?

Was Simmons going to stop Trae Young? Oh wait, no he couldn't. Simmons is a great player, no doubt, but he's also a certified, documented un-coachable head case. You want to spend 30-40MM on that, good on ya.

Following your logic, we need shooters, but lets pay max to a PG who can't and doesn't shoot. From anywhere beyond 6 ft. Classic fan incoherence as well.
Wait, why did we lose to the Hawks? Was it our defense?

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:literally the first year Simmons plays the sixers go from 54 losses to 52 wins and have been good since. Classic example of fans not appreciating a guy for what he does, instead they hate for what he cant do. Like when folks around here said crazy **** like "we would be better if Melo wanted to pass or play defense"

Ben is 24 and a 3x all star for a reason. Of course "we were already good at defense" so who needs him. Following the same logic we were also the 3rd best 3 point shooting team so we dont need shooters either. Wait what do we need again?

Was Simmons going to stop Trae Young? Oh wait, no he couldn't. Simmons is a great player, no doubt, but he's also a certified, documented un-coachable head case. You want to spend 30-40MM on that, good on ya.

Following your logic, we need shooters, but lets pay max to a PG who can't and doesn't shoot. From anywhere beyond 6 ft. Classic fan incoherence as well.
Wait, why did we lose to the Hawks? Was it our defense?

I would like to see BS under Thibs and crew. He's 24 and an impact player and his skills set fits a huge need (PG) and we have a guy on the roster who's role we could expand (IQ) if we played a guy like BS next to him.

Im talking OBi and Dallas picks, maybe another with protections, I doubt they want Knox, no to Mitch or IQ and phuck off if they want RJ or anyone else. Just move on.

Bottom line is if there is a buy low opportunity for the Knicks and Ben Simmons I would pounce on that. Dude is 24

TPercy wrote:

fishmike wrote:I would take Ben in heartbeart. You guys who say he's trash obviously dont understand him or watch basketball. He's got a couple of big flaws in his game that have been exposed repeatedly and Ben isnt the first "star" to be exposed in such a way. He's not a scorer. He gets 15 a game because he's big and fast and so good at creating for others. He's got a role in the offense and being an option isnt really part of it.

He's one of the best defensive players in the league and truly an impact player there. A top 4 league defender in any generation who can guard 1-5.

He would be an amazing point forward on the Knicks. You put him at 3, let him guard the toughest guys and he runs the offense which allows a team like the Knicks to play a non-PG shooting type like IQ at PG for 30+ minutes a game because Ben is running the offense.

Something like Obi/Knox and 3 FRPs (really a low ball as our picks suck) would suck for Phili (they would want 5 FRPs and IQ) which isnt worth it as Knicks wouldnt have any cap space/picks/assets to build anything better than a good defensive squad that cant score and gets bounced in the 2nd round every year (hey! Like Phili!)

But think about a starting line up of: IQ/RJ/Simmons/Julius/Mitch
Thats the best defensive team in the league and if IQ/RJ/Julius sustain their shooting you have good spacing.

Anyway its fart in the wind but Ben Simmons is absolutely an impact player. He's not a finisher but what he does gets you to there every time. There are not a lot of players good enough to do that. The only thing that would put the Knicks in the talks is their cap allows them more options than most other teams.

We'd be a really solid team for years to come with him, but until he learns how to be a good FT shooter among others it'd be impossible to make it out the 1st round. Ben couldn't even run the offense because he was terrfied of being fouled. Every time he brought the ball up he'd dump it off to another guard to run the set and go hide on the other side. Furthermore, Mitch + Ben wouldn't work. You can't have two guys who can't make a shot outside of 3 feet.

You also have to question his work ethic/maturity. He's young, but his game hasn't developed since he's been in the league at all and he dosen't seem to take much accountability for it. Maybe this off season with everyone clowning him it will be a wake up call but idk..

He is one of the 20-30 talents in terms of ceilings in the league. You have to consider it. But it's Philly. There's no way they deal with us unless we overpay and the only reason a deal would be in play is because he's a distressed asset. Also, it's just hard to build a team around him. Milwaukee has similar issues with Giannis.

We need an alpha on offense. Not feeling that w Julius ATM. Certainly not feeling w BS

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:I would like to see BS under Thibs and crew. He's 24 and an impact player and his skills set fits a huge need (PG) and we have a guy on the roster who's role we could expand (IQ) if we played a guy like BS next to him.

Im talking OBi and Dallas picks, maybe another with protections, I doubt they want Knox, no to Mitch or IQ and phuck off if they want RJ or anyone else. Just move on.

Bottom line is if there is a buy low opportunity for the Knicks and Ben Simmons I would pounce on that. Dude is 24

The bold is about as clear a picture of the future with Simmons as you could want. What don't you understand about a 24 year old who will not take the time to learn to shoot free throws, something they can teach middle schoolers to do? If you keep saying "impact" and "All Star" is that going to override "getting big shots" and "hitting big shots" in the playoffs?

Again, you talk about what you would trade, but do you REALLY want to pay this guy 30-40MM for the next 4 years? If it was buy low, pay low... it might be worth a gamble.

Like the man himself said, he is what he is.

As for payroll it only matters this year. This is the only offseason we are going to have cap space to spend. Once Randle gets the max its over. This is the one shot to add talent using that avenue. If its Ben Simmons for Obi and the Dallas picks cool. Good job. We still have assets moving forward but have another piece that really moves the needle. If not look elsewhere

Look at the age of your starting line up and you hand Thibs 5 guys who are plus defenders: IQ/RJ/Ben/Jules/Mitch

Its just one scenario... that would be a talented gift. You could also afford to bring back Rose

fishmike wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:I would like to see BS under Thibs and crew. He's 24 and an impact player and his skills set fits a huge need (PG) and we have a guy on the roster who's role we could expand (IQ) if we played a guy like BS next to him.

Im talking OBi and Dallas picks, maybe another with protections, I doubt they want Knox, no to Mitch or IQ and phuck off if they want RJ or anyone else. Just move on.

Bottom line is if there is a buy low opportunity for the Knicks and Ben Simmons I would pounce on that. Dude is 24

The bold is about as clear a picture of the future with Simmons as you could want. What don't you understand about a 24 year old who will not take the time to learn to shoot free throws, something they can teach middle schoolers to do? If you keep saying "impact" and "All Star" is that going to override "getting big shots" and "hitting big shots" in the playoffs?

Again, you talk about what you would trade, but do you REALLY want to pay this guy 30-40MM for the next 4 years? If it was buy low, pay low... it might be worth a gamble.

Like the man himself said, he is what he is.

he is what he is? How many people said that about Randle and his dubious handles last offseason? At 24 he is what he is? That is exactly what I hope Phili is saying and they pull the plug and send him to us for like nothing because we can eat that contract.

As for payroll it only matters this year. This is the only offseason we are going to have cap space to spend. Once Randle gets the max its over. This is the one shot to add talent using that avenue. If its Ben Simmons for Obi and the Dallas picks cool. Good job. We still have assets moving forward but have another piece that really moves the needle. If not look elsewhere

Look at the age of your starting line up and you hand Thibs 5 guys who are plus defenders: IQ/RJ/Ben/Jules/Mitch

Its just one scenario... that would be a talented gift. You could also afford to bring back Rose

Welpee wrote:

fishmike wrote:literally the first year Simmons plays the sixers go from 54 losses to 52 wins and have been good since.

It was also the first year Embiid played more than 31 games. Let's not pretend their rise was all due to Ben.

Im not a Ben Simmons lover. He got really exposed and its playoffs so it really gets magnified, just ask Giannis. Its not Ben's fault that like half of "the process" is a guy who cant shoot and had his head cracked open for all to get into.

Its a situation worth monitoring. He's a piece but one that could really fit if the price was right

TPercy wrote:Side question: Fish, are you sure we wouldn't have any cap space in 2022 to add FA? I know we are extending RJ that year and Randle's extension would kick in but wouldn't RJ's contract begin in 2023 giving us room to get guys in 2022?

So in theory we could have cap next offseason yes, but that is before Randle is resigned and assuming you let Mitch walk or he tanks (someone at least will gamble a MLE contract if he gets hurt) so its not looking good for next year. Impossible no but so many moving parts and it means to are playing this season with tons of guys on 1 year deals.

I dont see the point in that IF we can procure some talented pieces. We will see.

martin wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

nyvector16 wrote:I never understood the facination with Simmons.
He barely has a pulse on offense.
He often misses easy shots and really does not orchestrate unless he has another star taking all the attention.
Embid being hurt really exposed his glaring weaknesses, never mind he cannot even hit free throws.

It seems to me the only reason he is considered a star is because of his draft position.

He was a really enjoyable player to watch, believe it or not!

Think he'd be great in OKC, as they could spend the next few seasons building around him with shooting and top draft talent

Yeah, but they already have Alexander, who looks like more solid bet at this point. They're flush with assets and don't need to gamble. They do need to start cashing in at some point tho.

Kemba+SGA for Simmons.

Who blinks?

I do. Get rid of SGA and substitute picks and I'd think about it. Still probably say no. What about CJ McCollum for Simmons straight up?

fishmike wrote:I would take Ben in heartbeart. You guys who say he's trash obviously dont understand him or watch basketball. He's got a couple of big flaws in his game that have been exposed repeatedly and Ben isnt the first "star" to be exposed in such a way. He's not a scorer. He gets 15 a game because he's big and fast and so good at creating for others. He's got a role in the offense and being an option isnt really part of it.

He's one of the best defensive players in the league and truly an impact player there. A top 4 league defender in any generation who can guard 1-5.

He would be an amazing point forward on the Knicks. You put him at 3, let him guard the toughest guys and he runs the offense which allows a team like the Knicks to play a non-PG shooting type like IQ at PG for 30+ minutes a game because Ben is running the offense.

Something like Obi/Knox and 3 FRPs (really a low ball as our picks suck) would suck for Phili (they would want 5 FRPs and IQ) which isnt worth it as Knicks wouldnt have any cap space/picks/assets to build anything better than a good defensive squad that cant score and gets bounced in the 2nd round every year (hey! Like Phili!)

But think about a starting line up of: IQ/RJ/Simmons/Julius/Mitch
Thats the best defensive team in the league and if IQ/RJ/Julius sustain their shooting you have good spacing.

Anyway its fart in the wind but Ben Simmons is absolutely an impact player. He's not a finisher but what he does gets you to there every time. There are not a lot of players good enough to do that. The only thing that would put the Knicks in the talks is their cap allows them more options than most other teams.

This sounds like a "Frank Ntlikina type of argument". "He is so good on defense". He is SO smart". "He has so much potential". So what?? He has proven time and time again that he does not want to shoot. No way I am paying $40 Million for a guy that is afraid to shoot. In SEVEN GAMES he shot the ball 3 times in the fourth quarter!? F that. I'll take a good facilitator for 1/10th of his price or a guy that is not afraid to take a big shot in a big situation. Said it over and over again, you got to have true gamers to win. Enough with these guys that are afraid of the moment and can't take the pressure. What good are their so-called hidden values if they don't have the balls to show up??