SupremeCommander wrote:

Welpee wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Welpee wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Welpee wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

MaTT4281 wrote:

Nalod wrote:What position is Randle? Offensively he is playing more of a sf/wing? He is not posting up. This "Point forward thing" is What?
Can he defend the SF?
Obi outside game keeps developing he stretches the floor.
Is this how Obi gets more minutes next season. Not staying he starts or finishes, but gets to 20 or so minutes with some over lap.

I always feel like Obi hangs on the perimeter because he doesn't know where else to go. Plays aren't being run for him, and when he is given the ball, he very deferentially throws it right back.

He's always moving though. Whether it's setting the high screen or running from one corner to the next. Shot goes up, he's running towards the rim. Feels wasted being a "stretch 4", but fully expect a big jump next year, coinciding with the coaching staff coming in with a more specific game plan for him, as well as Obi getting more comfortable looking for his own shot. He's got some nice moves down low. Always fun getting that peak behind the curtain.

He's going to be fine.

Obi Toppin is getting excellent coaching today. He has not received that elsewhere. It will take time but I think he gets shown where to go and what to work on he'll become a freak. I firmly believe that

His coach at Dayton Anthony Grant is well respected. NBA experience at OKC, was a major part of Florida's first national championship as an associate head coach under Billy Donovan, a team with at least three NBA players (Noah, Horford, Brewer). Solid head coaching record in college. So I'm not sure how you determined he didn't receive excellent coaching elsewhere.

Perhaps I was a little flippant.. I think 'program' was the more appropriate choice of words. I agree with what you said - Obi got POY under his guidance. I just think everything is A+. Dayton's resources and facilities are not, I meant no disrespect to Mr Grant

I think you may want to rethink your position on the school too. Dayton is probably at the top of the list among mid-majors if any of the power conferences decide to expand again. Of course, they can't compared to Kentucky or Carolina or Kansas. But think about it, the first four round of the NCAA tournament is played at Dayton every year. That wouldn't happen if their facilities were subpar.

nope... you think Dayton is on par with the Knicks? I don't think Dayton is on par with Duke or Kentucky. I also think all the supplementary coaches and staff are not on par either. Mid majors may have made progress but yes I do not think he has benefitted from a college program in the way Randle, Quickley, or RJ benefitted at college... and there are other levels of basketball. Toppin did not play on the same types of early level teams

So you believe if you're not on par with Kentucky or Duke it's subpar? If that's your bar you can probably put over half the league in the same boat. Based on what you posted, Knox benefitted from the same opportunities as Randle and Quickley. What happened with him?

The bottom line is your original point portraying Toppin as if he received inferior coaching and access to only rec league-like facilities before coming to the Knicks is inaccurate. Heck, there are many power conference schools with inferior facilities if Kentucky is the bar.

Receiving instruction and doing something with it are completely different

And if you think Mr Late Bloomer Toppin received an equal level of attention as other prospects there is no point in carrying on the conversation with you

He received no D1 offers, played as a fifth year HS senior, and then chose Dayton over University of Dayton over Rhode Island, Georgetown, Georgia, Texas A&M, Minnesota, and Texas Tech. Not terrible spots but it speaks to how he was evaluated

Again, he didn’t get the same basketball opportunities as most draft class peers, the end

And FYI, if you access the original "Obi is a bust" thread I have a post where I broke down everything you referenced above so I'm completely aware of Toppin's history. FYI, I graduated from an A-10 school so I have followed Toppin closely for the past couple of years, saw him play live against my alma mater, have been to Dayton's campus for a game. That is one of the reasons why I understand that all mid-majors are not alike and generalizing that there's a huge gap between them and power conference schools is not quite accurate. There are a number of mid-major who have facilities and resources comparable to power conference schools (i.e. Wichita State). Like I said, if you compare everybody to Kentucky and Kansas the whole nation will come up short.

The end.

martin wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:Obi Toppin is a NBA big man who can't space the floor and can't defend the rim and nothing indicates he will project to do either well.

You'll have to help me understand how you came to that determination.

In college, in a small sample size and a smaller 3pt arc across 2 years, he was about 40%.

The one skillset that you mash both Melo and Wade on is their 3pt shooting but also note that all they needed to do was put in the work.

Could the same things have been said about RJ and Randle before this year? Sure they had a ton of time off but they put in the work.

What is it about Obi's shooting that he can't put in the work? Seems like his shot is slightly different already.

Also, you mention roles that he could fit into on the Knicks team, one of which is 6th man, but you anoint IQ to that role.... teams can't have 2 6th men who play entirely different positions?

lol

Philc1 wrote:

1) Obi’s three point shooting has improved and will continue to get better. Remember last year when the people who knew everything said RJ can’t shoot? That looks brilliant now

2) not every Center has to be Mitchell Robinson or Clint Capela. The lakers won a title last year with Anthony Davis playing Center and the Warriors won several titles without a dominant rim protector

3) Thibs already quarterbacks this defense

If you watch Toppin's college tape, most of his offensive prowess was due to being able to outmuscle/outpower/out-athlete/out explode in transition over inferior competition.

He did shoot well behind in the arc in a small sample size (43/103). What was the context? When he was wide open and could set himself in a catch and shoot situation, he did pretty well. When he was contested in any catch and shoot and/or in a "Pick And Pop" situation, you can see where big questions linger. Under actual defense and guys who could have bodied up on him at his athletic level, you can see his efficiency wane and his mechanics start to falter.

At the NBA level, he's going up against a faster pace, better athletes, smarter players, players locked in on some kind of high end PEDs cycling (everyone is pinning, I mean absolutely everyone, that was probably not true at Toppin's college level in the A10. I don't think every last Fordham guy was lighting it up. ), stronger closeouts, better defense, less margin for error, fewer "open" looks for a set shot, etc, etc

Can Toppin's long range shooting get better? It's entirely possible. It's something you can work on and develop over time in the NBA. But keep in mind, typically it's incremental and it's not a guarantee. Which again raises the question, if Toppin finally develops, will it be for his 2nd contract on a non Knicks team where NY was just a farm team burning minutes, coaching, salary, a roster spot and growing pains just to make a better player for someone else?

If you watch Toppin, he's just not a high BBIQ player. That's not a knock on him as a person. He seems a decent hardworking committed young man when you look at his interviews. I'm sure he's a solid locker room guy and sweat equity is not a problem. If you look at all his game tape, he's an instinctive player but against advanced competition, things fall apart. Both on offense and defense, he clearly has no idea where he is supposed to be, why he's supposed to be there and, critically, when is the right time to be there.

His footwork is a mess. It becomes more of a mess when there is attrition and duress. The real test of a player's mechanics, in any sport, is seeing how they hold up when the player is battered, exhausted, hurt, having the worst game of his life, getting no calls, and just all luck is not going his way. Under duress and under pure attrition. This was the beauty of Tim Duncan, someone who was so fundamental at all times.

Many people here before the draft questioned Toppin's lateral movement, but I also look at a player's ability ( or inability) to use space around them. How do they fare in close contact? Do they know how to use their body? Can they read the floor long before the play unfolds?

You say Toppin's shooting WILL get better. It might. In theory, it could. But I don't see it. And I don't see it to sustain the trade off for his lack of defense.

OK, if you can't give defense and you can't defend the rim, you need to bring plus value in offense. Is that a point we all really need to argue here?

Can Toppin create his own shot? No

Are the things that Toppin could do well marketable in the Space And Pace game? ( i.e. rim running in transition, pick and roll and maybe ( big maybe) some low post offense) I would say being an elite pick and roll guy is very useful, but there are deep questions if Thib's and his established scheme will fit a guy reliant on the team being in transition. Of course you know what helps transition offense? Defense. And does Toppin bring that? No.

Is he offering long range shooting now? No

Is he even doing a good job moving off the ball? No

A fair question is if a rookie can develop if he's only getting 8-10-12 minutes a game erratically. That's a fair question. A young player does need to get on the court to get better.

HOWEVER, there's a flip side to that coin that no many here refuse to discuss - IF YOU WANT MORE MINUTES, YOU NEED TO MAKE THE MOST OF THE MINUTES YOU DO GET

Play in such a way so they can't take you off the floor. Whatever people here, some of them, think of Jeremy Lin, he did just that. He got his shot, and he played in a way where he could no longer be ignored. He demanded minutes with HIS PLAY. People here can argue that Toppin needs a better facilitator or a better scheme or better coaching or better whatever. And there might be some valid points buried in there.

But everyone in every sport has a reason why they can't produce. Your job is to produce and execute even with limitations. This is a reason why you are a professional at the sport and why you are playing with those at the highest level. No excuses. Go perform.

Is Toppin making the most out the minutes he does get? I don't think so. Some here can disagree.

Phil1C, OK, now you are just being intentionally obtuse. Obi Toppin is a big man who can't defend the rim and can't space the floor. He's not a fit for Thibs or how Thibs runs things. What does he have? He's a local guy, a local flavor. He's a CAA guy. He has, in theory, the kind of potential exciting above the rim play that will fill highlight reels in short clips. None of that **** helps the Knicks win basketball games.

If Toppin ends up spending a good chunk of time at the pivot, he has to be able to make defensive calls on the floor. He's not a high BBIQ guy and he has low situational awareness and his own defense is pretty ugly and he can't defend the rim. He's shown he's a little better on the perimeter currently than projected but that looks to be more of a function of his length than anything else. He's getting killed by guys, even non elite guys, on their first step and he looks like he will be a sieve on the pick and roll. When people say currently, "He's working hard, he's a little better on defense than I thought!", well that has to be calibrated when the expectation was a walking turnstile. Defensively, this guy is an orange traffic cone.

I didn't post at all during the draft, or honestly for months and months. If I had, I would have clearly and openly said this is a bull**** pick. Nothing against the kid, he seems like a good person, but this is not about that. What about my deep preseason/pre draft scouting report did not ring true for Toppin? This isn't revisionist.

Again, anyone, take your shot. Explain to all of us what is "projectible" about Obi Toppin right now that indicates that he will be an impact player in the modern "Space And Pace" style game?

Iq was my second round pick weeks before the draft

I didn’t believe in haliburton. I was wrong here.

I wasn’t disappointed when we drafted Toppin. I thought ok poor defense but he would score.best player available.

Slightly disappointed in Toppin pre season and early. But I feel he is getting to good place and I’m not disappointed he is on the team.

As for our pick, as I wrote, I was targeting 3 players. Haliburton, Okoro and Vassell. The whole time I thought the FO was leaning towards Haliburton, and I believed Thibs would want Okoro or Vassell. In other words, I was almost certain we would choose one of those 3.

But I thought Obi would go sooner because he was somewhere in the 4-7 range on most mocks. I knew our FO wanted him too because there were even rumors that they might do a trade up for him so when he was still available with the 8th pick, everything was clear.

I still think it would have been better if we had taken Vassell or Haliburton, but if we had taken Haliburton, we probably wouldn’t have taken IQ later. But either way, we now have Obi and I hope I was wrong.

xavier wrote:

Welpee wrote:Remember, at one point Michael Carter-Williams looked good as rookie of the year. People thought DSJ was going to be good based on his rookie numbers.

I liked DSJ in that draft and I was really sad when we skipped him to pick Frank. But later it turned out that DSJ is not so good, and it is ironic that in the end he ended up with us. But we weren't very happy with Frank either.

But you’re right, the rookie season doesn’t have to mean anything and some adjust faster and some later. After all, RJ wasn’t exactly brilliant in his rookie season either.

The problem with Obi is that he is quite older than the other players in the class. He is already 23 years old and is even 2 years older than RJ who was picked a year earlier. Obi is also older than Knox and Frank for who most consider that it is “too late for them”.

Welpee wrote:

xavier wrote:

Welpee wrote:Remember, at one point Michael Carter-Williams looked good as rookie of the year. People thought DSJ was going to be good based on his rookie numbers.

I liked DSJ in that draft and I was really sad when we skipped him to pick Frank. But later it turned out that DSJ is not so good, and it is ironic that in the end he ended up with us. But we weren't very happy with Frank either.

But you’re right, the rookie season doesn’t have to mean anything and some adjust faster and some later. After all, RJ wasn’t exactly brilliant in his rookie season either.

The problem with Obi is that he is quite older than the other players in the class. He is already 23 years old and is even 2 years older than RJ who was picked a year earlier. Obi is also older than Knox and Frank for who most consider that it is “too late for them”.

The issue with Knox isn't his age but his motor/mentality. Whether you're 21 or 28, highly unlikely your effort on the court increases with age. I think mentally Knox is who he is. It is obviously not too late for any of these players physically. But I can't really think of any player who didn't play with effort early in their career and suddenly developed a high motor. I honestly haven't watched any Warrior games but I'm reading where that may be happening with Wiggins?

Knox is just way too slow on defense. Which is wierd because that was supposedly the knock on Toppin defensively and yet he’s show much better lateral quickness playing part time minutes as a rookie than Knox has in 3 years

RJ, Quick and Obi success dilute the disappointments. So does winning!!!!