HofstraBBall wrote:

fwk00 wrote:Truth of the matter is that Frank is very much like Julius Randle in that the fans have a pre-conceived love or hate relationship with him as a player.

The criticism, much like that being slung against Ben Simmons in Philly, is all about offense and aggressiveness. The positive aspects of their games are diminished or ignored and the developmental aspect of their game is magnified. He's all of 22 years old and has suffered the expectations of numerous coaches and their eclectic goals.

The point of the conversation is that we, as fans, have had to sit through numerous games in which Peyton, Bullock, and others simply don't have it and it shows in the second and third quarters. This is not about *giving Ntilikina a chance*, its about coaching to game time situations where any change up in the stinking status quo might help.

NOBODY is expecting Frankie to suddenly turn into Lebron James as some of you snark at. But can he give you spot minutes to stop the bleeding or turn the tide? Is *THAT* so unimaginable?

He's a talented guy. Use what you got.

Or maybe more Elf will somehow turn into a scoring machine.

Frankie will be fine. And when he is there will be pissing and moaning. In the meantime, how about winning games? Or at least making them watchable.

-snip-
Some said he could not score to save his life. They were right.

Most are now just finally saying four years of "I think he can turn it around" is just too much. Like all Knick fans, I wanted the kid to prove me wrong. I think he has improved his shot and can be much better. But as I said in my first post ever about the kid, he just does not have "IT", "It" being that alpha mentality that allows these young kids to be fearless, play with confidence, and want to attack at all times. Things needed to make it in NBA. Especially in NY.

Frankie can and does score. He simply hasn't found a consistency of what anyone can expect. This is not profoundly different from many of the players on this team.

"The kid" is still well within the typical learning curve of the average rotation NBA PG trajectory. In many aspects of his game he's ahead of the curve. His inability to carry the team on offense [because for years the other four on the floor were so pathetic] is and continues to be the loud, obnoxious criticism. True but not necessarily fair - he wasn't drafted as such and isn't *that*.

'IT' comes with maturity. And Frankie was often on the floor with Obie when Obie was a lost soul and others whose shot selection was suspect at best - not an excuse but Frankie's minutes aren't the warm and fuzzy minutes of the untouchables in Thibs' short rotations.

I'm not looking for Frankie to "turn" anything around. He improves with every season -not to your satisfaction but he has made it in the NBA and will play for years.

There's no excuse NOT to sic him on the Kyries of the NBA world, that's his wheelhouse and anyone with a lick of sense can see and has seen it. Frankie shines when playing against the best. It's only then you can disambiguate his contributions distinctly.

fwk00 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fwk00 wrote:Truth of the matter is that Frank is very much like Julius Randle in that the fans have a pre-conceived love or hate relationship with him as a player.

The criticism, much like that being slung against Ben Simmons in Philly, is all about offense and aggressiveness. The positive aspects of their games are diminished or ignored and the developmental aspect of their game is magnified. He's all of 22 years old and has suffered the expectations of numerous coaches and their eclectic goals.

The point of the conversation is that we, as fans, have had to sit through numerous games in which Peyton, Bullock, and others simply don't have it and it shows in the second and third quarters. This is not about *giving Ntilikina a chance*, its about coaching to game time situations where any change up in the stinking status quo might help.

NOBODY is expecting Frankie to suddenly turn into Lebron James as some of you snark at. But can he give you spot minutes to stop the bleeding or turn the tide? Is *THAT* so unimaginable?

He's a talented guy. Use what you got.

Or maybe more Elf will somehow turn into a scoring machine.

Frankie will be fine. And when he is there will be pissing and moaning. In the meantime, how about winning games? Or at least making them watchable.

-snip-
Some said he could not score to save his life. They were right.

Most are now just finally saying four years of "I think he can turn it around" is just too much. Like all Knick fans, I wanted the kid to prove me wrong. I think he has improved his shot and can be much better. But as I said in my first post ever about the kid, he just does not have "IT", "It" being that alpha mentality that allows these young kids to be fearless, play with confidence, and want to attack at all times. Things needed to make it in NBA. Especially in NY.

Frankie can and does score. He simply hasn't found a consistency of what anyone can expect. This is not profoundly different from many of the players on this team.

"The kid" is still well within the typical learning curve of the average rotation NBA PG trajectory. In many aspects of his game he's ahead of the curve. His inability to carry the team on offense [because for years the other four on the floor were so pathetic] is and continues to be the loud, obnoxious criticism. True but not necessarily fair - he wasn't drafted as such and isn't *that*.

'IT' comes with maturity. And Frankie was often on the floor with Obie when Obie was a lost soul and others whose shot selection was suspect at best - not an excuse but Frankie's minutes aren't the warm and fuzzy minutes of the untouchables in Thibs' short rotations.

I'm not looking for Frankie to "turn" anything around. He improves with every season -not to your satisfaction but he has made it in the NBA and will play for years.

There's no excuse NOT to sic him on the Kyries of the NBA world, that's his wheelhouse and anyone with a lick of sense can see and has seen it. Frankie shines when playing against the best. It's only then you can disambiguate his contributions distinctly.

The problem is and has always been, with Frank, that I do not see any stats that support anything you just said about him. He has had 4 years to put up actual numbers and show some type of consistency or improvement. Whic stat exactly shows the year-over-year improvement? I only see off-season hype videos. Posts where Frank fans go nuts because he had a couple of threes or steals. Or how they ignore the fact several coaches do not agree with their views of Frank. I find it telling that Frank is unable to beat out mediocre PG's. I mean we are talking league minimum type guys. Also, find silly Statements like "he would single-handedly stop Kyrie" to be a sign of the disconnect with what Frank has done or can do. This is just more of the same hopeful fan mentality that has been around him since day one. A belief most are getting tired of. The kid is a good defender but what else has he done to prove that he is an NBA starting PG?
If we are going to use his type of production as a measure, the sad truth is we are not ever going to be very good. I for one chose to belief the PRO coaching staffs and actual numbers to tell me who is good?

blkexec wrote:

Welpee wrote:Can we stop with this fantasy about Frank locking down anybody. I can't think of a single prime time player Frank "locked down." Making isolated nice defensive plays and locking down somebody are completely different. As Fishmike said, Frank may have slowed Irving down a couple of points, but how many points are you giving back since he can't score or create points for anybody else?

We need to stop pretending that Frank is Gary Payton.

I respectfully disagree....AND....this is coming from someone who advocates trading Frank. I was never a huge fan. But one thing is VERY clear. Frank is the best 1 on 1 guard defender on the roster. Right now Payton is ahead of him, and I rather have Franks defense instead.

Now back to offense, since that's your discussion point. I rather have Franks willingness to shoot and recently we have seen hit from outside the paint. Frank is a better shooter than Payton.

So yes, on this team, Frank is our Gary Payton.

And yes, on this team, Frank is a better floor spacer than our starting PG.

Not sure why there's so much hate on Frank. And Im not even a Frank fan. But I am a fan of players that play defense.

FYI....Lockdown defender went out the door when hand checking rule was changed. But compared to the other options on the team, Frank is the better defender. If you disagree, let me know who's better on this roster? I'm open to your coaching suggestions.

Everybody screams for Frank to play...until he plays and shows how ineffective he is. Then he gets benched, memories fade, and people start pretending again that he's a polite Patrick Beverley. The only thing I would concede is we had nothing to lose trying Frank on Kyrie. It certainly wouldn't have been worse than what actually happened.

Welpee wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Welpee wrote:Can we stop with this fantasy about Frank locking down anybody. I can't think of a single prime time player Frank "locked down." Making isolated nice defensive plays and locking down somebody are completely different. As Fishmike said, Frank may have slowed Irving down a couple of points, but how many points are you giving back since he can't score or create points for anybody else?

We need to stop pretending that Frank is Gary Payton.

I respectfully disagree....AND....this is coming from someone who advocates trading Frank. I was never a huge fan. But one thing is VERY clear. Frank is the best 1 on 1 guard defender on the roster. Right now Payton is ahead of him, and I rather have Franks defense instead.

Now back to offense, since that's your discussion point. I rather have Franks willingness to shoot and recently we have seen hit from outside the paint. Frank is a better shooter than Payton.

So yes, on this team, Frank is our Gary Payton.

And yes, on this team, Frank is a better floor spacer than our starting PG.

Not sure why there's so much hate on Frank. And Im not even a Frank fan. But I am a fan of players that play defense.

FYI....Lockdown defender went out the door when hand checking rule was changed. But compared to the other options on the team, Frank is the better defender. If you disagree, let me know who's better on this roster? I'm open to your coaching suggestions.

Nobody is hating on Frank. I'm hating on this mirage of what Frank is and the fairy tale that we can throw Frank out there and stop the best offensive guards in the NBA. Yes, by default Frank is our best defensive point guard (not our best defensive guard, that would be Bullock). He is also probably our worse offensive point guard. Yes, you can argue that Payton being able to occasionally score in the paint trumps Franks ability to hit occasional threes.

Everybody screams for Frank to play...until he plays and shows how ineffective he is. Then he gets benched, memories fade, and people start pretending again that he's a polite Patrick Beverley. The only thing I would concede is we had nothing to lose trying Frank on Kyrie. It certainly wouldn't have been worse than what actually happened.

Have to disagree. Frank is our best perimeter defender, guard or wing. We've seen him consistently dig down and get stops against wings and guards. Also, he probably has the highest awareness on team D. Is that enough for him to get consistent minutes? No. I'm not even advocating to put him in for Payton and I have no love for Payton. No matter what you try to tell me, you'll never convince that Payton isn't trash as a starter. But you could at least throw Frank out there every once in awhile when a player is burning us on the perimeter. I have the same concerns with Knox. Not going to tell you Knox is a world beater, but I can tell you he'd be more effective sitting on the perimeter, waiting for a corner 3 than Obi.

Welpee wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Welpee wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Welpee wrote:Can we stop with this fantasy about Frank locking down anybody. I can't think of a single prime time player Frank "locked down." Making isolated nice defensive plays and locking down somebody are completely different. As Fishmike said, Frank may have slowed Irving down a couple of points, but how many points are you giving back since he can't score or create points for anybody else?

We need to stop pretending that Frank is Gary Payton.

I respectfully disagree....AND....this is coming from someone who advocates trading Frank. I was never a huge fan. But one thing is VERY clear. Frank is the best 1 on 1 guard defender on the roster. Right now Payton is ahead of him, and I rather have Franks defense instead.

Now back to offense, since that's your discussion point. I rather have Franks willingness to shoot and recently we have seen hit from outside the paint. Frank is a better shooter than Payton.

So yes, on this team, Frank is our Gary Payton.

And yes, on this team, Frank is a better floor spacer than our starting PG.

Not sure why there's so much hate on Frank. And Im not even a Frank fan. But I am a fan of players that play defense.

FYI....Lockdown defender went out the door when hand checking rule was changed. But compared to the other options on the team, Frank is the better defender. If you disagree, let me know who's better on this roster? I'm open to your coaching suggestions.

Nobody is hating on Frank. I'm hating on this mirage of what Frank is and the fairy tale that we can throw Frank out there and stop the best offensive guards in the NBA. Yes, by default Frank is our best defensive point guard (not our best defensive guard, that would be Bullock). He is also probably our worse offensive point guard. Yes, you can argue that Payton being able to occasionally score in the paint trumps Franks ability to hit occasional threes.

Everybody screams for Frank to play...until he plays and shows how ineffective he is. Then he gets benched, memories fade, and people start pretending again that he's a polite Patrick Beverley. The only thing I would concede is we had nothing to lose trying Frank on Kyrie. It certainly wouldn't have been worse than what actually happened.

Have to disagree. Frank is our best perimeter defender, guard or wing. We've seen him consistently dig down and get stops against wings and guards. Also, he probably has the highest awareness on team D. Is that enough for him to get consistent minutes? No. I'm not even advocating to put him in for Payton and I have no love for Payton. No matter what you try to tell me, you'll never convince that Payton isn't trash as a starter. But you could at least throw Frank out there every once in awhile when a player is burning us on the perimeter. I have the same concerns with Knox. Not going to tell you Knox is a world beater, but I can tell you he'd be more effective sitting on the perimeter, waiting for a corner 3 than Obi.

Let's walk this through: So a proven, veteran, defensive-minded coach doesn't play his so-called best perimeter defender? Really? Why? He doesn't like him personally? What you're saying simply doesn't add up or Frank must be so bad on offense he'd have to be Dennis Rodman or Hakeem on defense to make up for it. And please don't put words in my mouth, never said Payton wasn't trash as a starter. But how bad must Frank be if he can't take minutes from one of the worst starting point guards in the NBA?

Once again, I'm not saying you're wrong about giving Frank some burn if an opposing player is hot and none of the players in front of him can slow him down. I'm just refuting this notion that's being advanced that Frank is some form of a lock down defender and that he may have shut down Kyrie. It's easy to take a stance on something that never happened because it's impossible to disprove it. Heck, I could claim Thibs should've tried Jared Harper on Kyrie.

Regarding Knox, the problem is that's all Knox is going to do. At least Obi will consistently give you more overall effort than Knox. The frustrating thing is when Knox wakes up one morning and decides he wants to play (like he did in Tampa) the dude shows he has talent. The problem is he's in hibernation 99% of the time. One of the most disengaged, unfocused players I've seen in a long time.

Not putting words in your mouth. Just making it known that I think Payton is trash. I don't really care what your, or anyone's thoughts are regarding Payton. I just don't believe in him as a starting point guard and my mind is made up. I can say that Frank may have a shot at defending Kyrie because I've seen him do it in the past. I've saw him D Westbrook last year and force him to brick up a potentially game winning shot. I know, "Frank can't shoot!" I'm not suggesting Frank deserves consistent minutes, but he does do one thing well. Give him a shot and see if he can stop the bleeding. As for Thibs motivations, Bulls and Wolves fans will tell you about Tom's idiosyncrant roster decisions ( Keith Bogans, Josh Okogie etc.)
As for Knox, my main issue Is that Thibs is using Obi in a manner that fits Knox's game. If we were seeing more pick and roll action from Obi, I wouldn't complain. If you're just going to have him as a floor spacer, Knox would do a better job.

ramtour420 wrote:Frank is the best defender on the team. Frank shoots the best percentage from the 3 land on the team this season. Not playing him is on Thibs. Not being able to run 5 plays per game that involve off the ball movement is on Thibs.

He's played in 18 games on the season, 8 of them he failed to score 1 point.

I don't know if that is stubbornness or in small part development of a baseline of what he expects of team and players and you call that a development culture of sorts.

He has given all the main players on team a chance. Pass it or sit, next guy up. Generally, he does not give a guy 1 or 2 games and then sit a couple. You get a good chunk of games to prove your minutes.

Frank did not grab the reins. Maybe they do like him as a player and know what he can do, but he has to step up and yank those reins from other players and own it on the court.

Yeah, it's surprising that Frank hasn't emerged as a key role player on a Thibs team. Certainly he's good for 15 minutes of all-defense/doesn't hurt you too much offensively type of play, right?

But when you do the eye test, he's not an energy guy - he's not a player that will get his teammates or the crowd pumped up - he's not a player other teams fear. I don't think teams make any adjustments for when he's in the game and that's when he excels. The man he's defending doesn't get any extra picks or different plays from normal. On defense, they may even stick their best offensive player on him so their guy gets a rest on the defensive end.

Plus the Knicks have better options. At least Bullock (as of late) has been very aggressive about getting his shots off - and Burks is a pretty complete player.

Anyway, what disappoints me more was the statement Thibs was saying before the trade deadline that he is happy with the roster and scared of disrupting the chemistry. I felt this team needed some help, needed a change even if its a small move but the FO with input from Thibs just held their ground. This team looks tired and gassed. It seems like moving forward they can only play upto 70-90% of the game.

It seems like they feel that they already made a statement this season, people already noticed the new knicks. They know that there is no more next gear left to go to. They will just cruise to the finish line. This team has tons of heart but they might not have anything more left to give. No reinforcements came after the deadline.

We have been losing games by 2 F'n points after blowing big, big leads. Turnovers, lazy D. This is the "bleeding" we watch on a regular basis. Nobody is learning anything or it would stop.

The issue isn't Frankie per se. Its about not using a guy that can't hurt you once you have a big lead. You don't need his scoring, you need a stopper, a disruption in the other team's runs. This is simply common sense, not being a Hive advocate.

As has been pointed out. Kyrie will score but he ain't getting 40 against a Frankie diet. If he scores only 37, Knicks win.