foosballnick wrote:With everything going on in politics and sports these days I've become convinced that many people have the ability to only see the here and now and have trouble projecting longer term impacts. That being said, I'm guessing that these same people may feel we should bring in CP3 regardless of trade assets because it will help the team improve immediately.....and it likely will. What they may be missing is weighing the potential impacts this may have on any longer term build. If you have to move a late 1st Rounder, Knox and Randall for CP3.....what is the current replacement value in terms of other potential trades for the 1st Rounder, Knox and Randall above a 2 year CP3 Rental? Further, we will essentially be trading Knox and Randall while their values are relatively low. What is their upside Trade Value? What will the value of the late First Rounder be in terms of draft-able asset or ability to move up in draft positioning? How will CP3 help or hinder other player development? What future moves and FA signings will not be available due to CP3's $45M cap hit? What rate of decline in productivity will CP3 face as a 35 year old player? What increased chance of injury / decrease in playing time will CP3 face as a 35 year old player? How attractive will CP3 be in bringing other players to NY? Obviously we are not able to answer these questions. However when you weigh the overall amount of open questions against the incremental number of wins CP3 will give to the Knicks on a 2 year rental.....it certainly would give any rational GM a pause as to how much you would pay (or want in return) for bringing CP3 to the Knicks.

I like this line of thinking.

So, in terms of the 2 year rental... for me it's really 1 year rental and potential block on salary cap flexibility. i.e. Are there any free agents for the upcoming season that the Knicks could NOT get that you would otherwise save the cap space for? So, an important player right now? I don't know but don't think so. Next year? Perhaps but maybe not as much as we think? Moving Knox/Randle makes a huge difference.

Also, would knowing you have a guy on roster like CP3 effect your draft choices at all? PGs aside, perhaps knowing CP3 is the starter on your team instead of DSJr/Frank/?, would Okoro/Okongwu/PWilliams/? now be more a part of your draft strategy?

I still think there is a 50% chance CP3 is a Knicks player next year

martin wrote:

foosballnick wrote:With everything going on in politics and sports these days I've become convinced that many people have the ability to only see the here and now and have trouble projecting longer term impacts. That being said, I'm guessing that these same people may feel we should bring in CP3 regardless of trade assets because it will help the team improve immediately.....and it likely will. What they may be missing is weighing the potential impacts this may have on any longer term build. If you have to move a late 1st Rounder, Knox and Randall for CP3.....what is the current replacement value in terms of other potential trades for the 1st Rounder, Knox and Randall above a 2 year CP3 Rental? Further, we will essentially be trading Knox and Randall while their values are relatively low. What is their upside Trade Value? What will the value of the late First Rounder be in terms of draft-able asset or ability to move up in draft positioning? How will CP3 help or hinder other player development? What future moves and FA signings will not be available due to CP3's $45M cap hit? What rate of decline in productivity will CP3 face as a 35 year old player? What increased chance of injury / decrease in playing time will CP3 face as a 35 year old player? How attractive will CP3 be in bringing other players to NY? Obviously we are not able to answer these questions. However when you weigh the overall amount of open questions against the incremental number of wins CP3 will give to the Knicks on a 2 year rental.....it certainly would give any rational GM a pause as to how much you would pay (or want in return) for bringing CP3 to the Knicks.

I like this line of thinking.

So, in terms of the 2 year rental... for me it's really 1 year rental and potential block on salary cap flexibility. i.e. Are there any free agents for the upcoming season that the Knicks could NOT get that you would otherwise save the cap space for? So, an important player right now? I don't know but don't think so. Next year? Perhaps but maybe not as much as we think? Moving Knox/Randle makes a huge difference.

Also, would knowing you have a guy on roster like CP3 effect your draft choices at all? PGs aside, perhaps knowing CP3 is the starter on your team instead of DSJr/Frank/?, would Okoro/Okongwu/PWilliams/? now be more a part of your draft strategy?

I still think there is a 50% chance CP3 is a Knicks player next year

jskinny35 wrote:CP3 over Oladipo if it comes to a "we need an over the hill star" decision... at least we would cut bait with CP after his contract expires. Terrified that we trade for Oladipo and he plays better and we get sucked into a long-term resigning...

It's choosing between gonorrhea and syphilis . I'd pass on both, but...gun to my head, I'd choose CP3 (gonorrhea).

martin wrote:

foosballnick wrote:With everything going on in politics and sports these days I've become convinced that many people have the ability to only see the here and now and have trouble projecting longer term impacts. That being said, I'm guessing that these same people may feel we should bring in CP3 regardless of trade assets because it will help the team improve immediately.....and it likely will. What they may be missing is weighing the potential impacts this may have on any longer term build. If you have to move a late 1st Rounder, Knox and Randall for CP3.....what is the current replacement value in terms of other potential trades for the 1st Rounder, Knox and Randall above a 2 year CP3 Rental? Further, we will essentially be trading Knox and Randall while their values are relatively low. What is their upside Trade Value? What will the value of the late First Rounder be in terms of draft-able asset or ability to move up in draft positioning? How will CP3 help or hinder other player development? What future moves and FA signings will not be available due to CP3's $45M cap hit? What rate of decline in productivity will CP3 face as a 35 year old player? What increased chance of injury / decrease in playing time will CP3 face as a 35 year old player? How attractive will CP3 be in bringing other players to NY? Obviously we are not able to answer these questions. However when you weigh the overall amount of open questions against the incremental number of wins CP3 will give to the Knicks on a 2 year rental.....it certainly would give any rational GM a pause as to how much you would pay (or want in return) for bringing CP3 to the Knicks.

I like this line of thinking.

So, in terms of the 2 year rental... for me it's really 1 year rental and potential block on salary cap flexibility. i.e. Are there any free agents for the upcoming season that the Knicks could NOT get that you would otherwise save the cap space for? So, an important player right now? I don't know but don't think so. Next year? Perhaps but maybe not as much as we think? Moving Knox/Randle makes a huge difference.

Also, would knowing you have a guy on roster like CP3 effect your draft choices at all? PGs aside, perhaps knowing CP3 is the starter on your team instead of DSJr/Frank/?, would Okoro/Okongwu/PWilliams/? now be more a part of your draft strategy?

I still think there is a 50% chance CP3 is a Knicks player next year

If the goal is for Rose to try and build credibility to get to the playoffs as a 7th/8th seed for the next 2 seasons and then start roster build again.....I can see bringing CP3 here.

If the goal is to build towards a champion roster starting with the assets you have on hand....I cant see CP3 here.

foosballnick wrote:

martin wrote:

foosballnick wrote:With everything going on in politics and sports these days I've become convinced that many people have the ability to only see the here and now and have trouble projecting longer term impacts. That being said, I'm guessing that these same people may feel we should bring in CP3 regardless of trade assets because it will help the team improve immediately.....and it likely will. What they may be missing is weighing the potential impacts this may have on any longer term build. If you have to move a late 1st Rounder, Knox and Randall for CP3.....what is the current replacement value in terms of other potential trades for the 1st Rounder, Knox and Randall above a 2 year CP3 Rental? Further, we will essentially be trading Knox and Randall while their values are relatively low. What is their upside Trade Value? What will the value of the late First Rounder be in terms of draft-able asset or ability to move up in draft positioning? How will CP3 help or hinder other player development? What future moves and FA signings will not be available due to CP3's $45M cap hit? What rate of decline in productivity will CP3 face as a 35 year old player? What increased chance of injury / decrease in playing time will CP3 face as a 35 year old player? How attractive will CP3 be in bringing other players to NY? Obviously we are not able to answer these questions. However when you weigh the overall amount of open questions against the incremental number of wins CP3 will give to the Knicks on a 2 year rental.....it certainly would give any rational GM a pause as to how much you would pay (or want in return) for bringing CP3 to the Knicks.

I like this line of thinking.

So, in terms of the 2 year rental... for me it's really 1 year rental and potential block on salary cap flexibility. i.e. Are there any free agents for the upcoming season that the Knicks could NOT get that you would otherwise save the cap space for? So, an important player right now? I don't know but don't think so. Next year? Perhaps but maybe not as much as we think? Moving Knox/Randle makes a huge difference.

Also, would knowing you have a guy on roster like CP3 effect your draft choices at all? PGs aside, perhaps knowing CP3 is the starter on your team instead of DSJr/Frank/?, would Okoro/Okongwu/PWilliams/? now be more a part of your draft strategy?

I still think there is a 50% chance CP3 is a Knicks player next year

If the goal is for Rose to try and build credibility to get to the playoffs as a 7th/8th seed for the next 2 seasons and then start roster build again.....I can see bringing CP3 here.

If the goal is to build towards a champion roster starting with the assets you have on hand....I cant see CP3 here.

Have to repeat my concern that NY is where Paul wants to spend what may well be the last of his good years as an elite player. When he can still be the X factor for a contender. I read that Paul is pushing for a trade to the Bucks. Dont believe CP3 will care about his relationship with Rose unless he plans on building a legit contender. Feels like such a classic Knicks move. To paraphrase an old rap tune "How many aging PGs?".

Id sign Van leet, if we're going to spend that much on a PG. If trade talks for a veteran PG
get serious, we'll know what Thibs thinks of Frank and Smith jr as starter material.

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

martin wrote:

foosballnick wrote:With everything going on in politics and sports these days I've become convinced that many people have the ability to only see the here and now and have trouble projecting longer term impacts. That being said, I'm guessing that these same people may feel we should bring in CP3 regardless of trade assets because it will help the team improve immediately.....and it likely will. What they may be missing is weighing the potential impacts this may have on any longer term build. If you have to move a late 1st Rounder, Knox and Randall for CP3.....what is the current replacement value in terms of other potential trades for the 1st Rounder, Knox and Randall above a 2 year CP3 Rental? Further, we will essentially be trading Knox and Randall while their values are relatively low. What is their upside Trade Value? What will the value of the late First Rounder be in terms of draft-able asset or ability to move up in draft positioning? How will CP3 help or hinder other player development? What future moves and FA signings will not be available due to CP3's $45M cap hit? What rate of decline in productivity will CP3 face as a 35 year old player? What increased chance of injury / decrease in playing time will CP3 face as a 35 year old player? How attractive will CP3 be in bringing other players to NY? Obviously we are not able to answer these questions. However when you weigh the overall amount of open questions against the incremental number of wins CP3 will give to the Knicks on a 2 year rental.....it certainly would give any rational GM a pause as to how much you would pay (or want in return) for bringing CP3 to the Knicks.

I like this line of thinking.

So, in terms of the 2 year rental... for me it's really 1 year rental and potential block on salary cap flexibility. i.e. Are there any free agents for the upcoming season that the Knicks could NOT get that you would otherwise save the cap space for? So, an important player right now? I don't know but don't think so. Next year? Perhaps but maybe not as much as we think? Moving Knox/Randle makes a huge difference.

Also, would knowing you have a guy on roster like CP3 effect your draft choices at all? PGs aside, perhaps knowing CP3 is the starter on your team instead of DSJr/Frank/?, would Okoro/Okongwu/PWilliams/? now be more a part of your draft strategy?

I still think there is a 50% chance CP3 is a Knicks player next year

If the goal is for Rose to try and build credibility to get to the playoffs as a 7th/8th seed for the next 2 seasons and then start roster build again.....I can see bringing CP3 here.

If the goal is to build towards a champion roster starting with the assets you have on hand....I cant see CP3 here.

Have to repeat my concern that NY is where Paul wants to spend what may well be the last of his good years as an elite player? When he can still be the X factor for a contender? I read that Paul is pushing for a trade to the Bucks. Dont believe CP3 will care about his relationship with Rose unless he plans on building a legit contender. Feels like such a classic Knicks move. To paraphrase an old rap tune "How many aging PGs?".

Id sign Van leet, if we're going to spend that much on a PG. If trade talks for a veteran PG
get serious, we'll know what Thibs thinks of Frank and Smith jr as starter material.

OKC was realistically not a contender this year. And yet somehow CP3 found it in himself to play to qualify him in MVP discussion.

You trade for CP3 and he doesn't get a choice to play or not play

That was a veteran playoff team, with a good system in place. It was plug n play. Dont believe Paul would have been traded there without signing off on a deal. Out of respect. Could you see Paul signing off on this roster? Right now? Believe Rose would need to trade or sign for at least one player to tip the scales. My guess.

You also have to wonder if Paul would be concerned about being relied on too much. Minuteswise.

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

martin wrote:

foosballnick wrote:With everything going on in politics and sports these days I've become convinced that many people have the ability to only see the here and now and have trouble projecting longer term impacts. That being said, I'm guessing that these same people may feel we should bring in CP3 regardless of trade assets because it will help the team improve immediately.....and it likely will. What they may be missing is weighing the potential impacts this may have on any longer term build. If you have to move a late 1st Rounder, Knox and Randall for CP3.....what is the current replacement value in terms of other potential trades for the 1st Rounder, Knox and Randall above a 2 year CP3 Rental? Further, we will essentially be trading Knox and Randall while their values are relatively low. What is their upside Trade Value? What will the value of the late First Rounder be in terms of draft-able asset or ability to move up in draft positioning? How will CP3 help or hinder other player development? What future moves and FA signings will not be available due to CP3's $45M cap hit? What rate of decline in productivity will CP3 face as a 35 year old player? What increased chance of injury / decrease in playing time will CP3 face as a 35 year old player? How attractive will CP3 be in bringing other players to NY? Obviously we are not able to answer these questions. However when you weigh the overall amount of open questions against the incremental number of wins CP3 will give to the Knicks on a 2 year rental.....it certainly would give any rational GM a pause as to how much you would pay (or want in return) for bringing CP3 to the Knicks.

I like this line of thinking.

So, in terms of the 2 year rental... for me it's really 1 year rental and potential block on salary cap flexibility. i.e. Are there any free agents for the upcoming season that the Knicks could NOT get that you would otherwise save the cap space for? So, an important player right now? I don't know but don't think so. Next year? Perhaps but maybe not as much as we think? Moving Knox/Randle makes a huge difference.

Also, would knowing you have a guy on roster like CP3 effect your draft choices at all? PGs aside, perhaps knowing CP3 is the starter on your team instead of DSJr/Frank/?, would Okoro/Okongwu/PWilliams/? now be more a part of your draft strategy?

I still think there is a 50% chance CP3 is a Knicks player next year

If the goal is for Rose to try and build credibility to get to the playoffs as a 7th/8th seed for the next 2 seasons and then start roster build again.....I can see bringing CP3 here.

If the goal is to build towards a champion roster starting with the assets you have on hand....I cant see CP3 here.

Have to repeat my concern that NY is where Paul wants to spend what may well be the last of his good years as an elite player? When he can still be the X factor for a contender? I read that Paul is pushing for a trade to the Bucks. Dont believe CP3 will care about his relationship with Rose unless he plans on building a legit contender. Feels like such a classic Knicks move. To paraphrase an old rap tune "How many aging PGs?".

Id sign Van leet, if we're going to spend that much on a PG. If trade talks for a veteran PG
get serious, we'll know what Thibs thinks of Frank and Smith jr as starter material.

OKC was realistically not a contender this year. And yet somehow CP3 found it in himself to play to qualify him in MVP discussion.

You trade for CP3 and he doesn't get a choice to play or not play

That was a veteran playoff team, with a good system in place. It was plug n play. Dont believe Paul would have been traded there without signing off on a deal. Out of respect. Could you see Paul signing off on this roster? Right now? Believe Rose would need to trade or sign for at least one player to tip the scales. My guess.

You also have to wonder if Paul would be concerned about being relied on too much. Minuteswise.

You can believe what you want, no GM would pay attention to it

The GM who is trading for him would want to know, that big a deal. We traded Ewing to Seattle because thats what he wanted. When it was in our best interest to wsit until the offseason. Its called star treatment. Not universal, but it happens.

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

martin wrote:

foosballnick wrote:With everything going on in politics and sports these days I've become convinced that many people have the ability to only see the here and now and have trouble projecting longer term impacts. That being said, I'm guessing that these same people may feel we should bring in CP3 regardless of trade assets because it will help the team improve immediately.....and it likely will. What they may be missing is weighing the potential impacts this may have on any longer term build. If you have to move a late 1st Rounder, Knox and Randall for CP3.....what is the current replacement value in terms of other potential trades for the 1st Rounder, Knox and Randall above a 2 year CP3 Rental? Further, we will essentially be trading Knox and Randall while their values are relatively low. What is their upside Trade Value? What will the value of the late First Rounder be in terms of draft-able asset or ability to move up in draft positioning? How will CP3 help or hinder other player development? What future moves and FA signings will not be available due to CP3's $45M cap hit? What rate of decline in productivity will CP3 face as a 35 year old player? What increased chance of injury / decrease in playing time will CP3 face as a 35 year old player? How attractive will CP3 be in bringing other players to NY? Obviously we are not able to answer these questions. However when you weigh the overall amount of open questions against the incremental number of wins CP3 will give to the Knicks on a 2 year rental.....it certainly would give any rational GM a pause as to how much you would pay (or want in return) for bringing CP3 to the Knicks.

I like this line of thinking.

So, in terms of the 2 year rental... for me it's really 1 year rental and potential block on salary cap flexibility. i.e. Are there any free agents for the upcoming season that the Knicks could NOT get that you would otherwise save the cap space for? So, an important player right now? I don't know but don't think so. Next year? Perhaps but maybe not as much as we think? Moving Knox/Randle makes a huge difference.

Also, would knowing you have a guy on roster like CP3 effect your draft choices at all? PGs aside, perhaps knowing CP3 is the starter on your team instead of DSJr/Frank/?, would Okoro/Okongwu/PWilliams/? now be more a part of your draft strategy?

I still think there is a 50% chance CP3 is a Knicks player next year

If the goal is for Rose to try and build credibility to get to the playoffs as a 7th/8th seed for the next 2 seasons and then start roster build again.....I can see bringing CP3 here.

If the goal is to build towards a champion roster starting with the assets you have on hand....I cant see CP3 here.

Have to repeat my concern that NY is where Paul wants to spend what may well be the last of his good years as an elite player? When he can still be the X factor for a contender? I read that Paul is pushing for a trade to the Bucks. Dont believe CP3 will care about his relationship with Rose unless he plans on building a legit contender. Feels like such a classic Knicks move. To paraphrase an old rap tune "How many aging PGs?".

Id sign Van leet, if we're going to spend that much on a PG. If trade talks for a veteran PG
get serious, we'll know what Thibs thinks of Frank and Smith jr as starter material.

OKC was realistically not a contender this year. And yet somehow CP3 found it in himself to play to qualify him in MVP discussion.

You trade for CP3 and he doesn't get a choice to play or not play

That was a veteran playoff team, with a good system in place. It was plug n play. Dont believe Paul would have been traded there without signing off on a deal. Out of respect. Could you see Paul signing off on this roster? Right now? Believe Rose would need to trade or sign for at least one player to tip the scales. My guess.

You also have to wonder if Paul would be concerned about being relied on too much. Minuteswise.

You can believe what you want, no GM would pay attention to it

The GM who is trading for him would want to know, that big a deal. We traded Ewing to Seattle because thats what he wanted. When it was in our best interest to wsit until the offseason. Its called star treatment. Not universal, but it happens.

Ewing on Knicks same as CP3 on OKC? Bad analogy

It was the best analogy ever made, it was beautiful. It was also enough to refute your point that what a star wants doesnt matter. Who drove the trade from Houston?

martin wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:This seems just like the Melo trade when the knicks were reluctant to include Mosgov..well how did his career turn out.

Knox is no where near ready

True but they just brought in Knox's coach who probably sold them on the idea that he can bring out untapped potential and turn him into a modern day Stretch 4. I think it’s a much different situation.

I do realize that, but the knicks have 7 straight losing season, there will me another Knox in the coming draft, that dude can easily be replace, it's not like he's on trey youngs level.

You don't think there's going to be some serious sacrificing and risk if you want to get better sooner than later?

We spent 6 yrs with the conservative mills making low risk moves, resulting in low returns, a losing culture and cap space. That **** back fired and your cap space netted you trash and your young guys showed little promise..Why continue to do that?

Mosgov wasn’t a featured player in the deal. He went on the be the starting center for one of the Cavs finals runs. Where he averaged 14pts 7.5rebs 1.5blks in the finals. I would still trade him obviously. But that’s how it turned out for him.

CP3 is 35 and is owed 120mil. Prior to these last yrs he was playing 64, 58, 58, 70 gms each season. He gets injured and we are stuck with a massive unmovable contract. When he is 37-38 and making 40mil per. It’s very likely that his game tails off. We aren’t set to win right now either to capitalize on him hopefully having another highly productive yr. Giving away players is never good business. Every single piece can potentially turn into another piece that explodes. Knox could be moved for a draft pick that could become a player that plays for a team for 10yrs if Knox isn’t that player himself. So if Paul is the move then there better be a legit plan.

To be clear: CP3 has 2 years left on contract with last year as player option. $41M, $44M.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/OKC.html

Wanted to double check that before posting, but didn’t have the time. I’m not against the trade for CP3 but not really for just giving young players away. OKC are rebuilding and won’t win anything with CP3 over these next 2 yrs. Odds are very high that CP3s value will decline over the next 2 seasons. While CP3 is eating 40mil of their cap. Gallinari, Schroeder, & Adams are all upcoming FAs over these next 2 yrs which OKC will either let walk or trade away. They may be a lotto team as soon as next season if/when they lose Danilo in free agency. Knicks don’t need to act desperate. As that is what OKC will look to capitalize on. By moving Paul and saving cap to go along with their picks. They could use that flexibility to pair SGA with someone or 2 for the long term right away. Them holding on to Paul reduces those options that pure cap would have in comparison somewhat. Not even mentioning if he gets injured and his value tanks.

DJMUSIC wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:We legitimately don’t even know what we have with current players. We have not one lock player — meaning I know this guys good. Build through draft and smart acquisition like MIAMi and BOStOn

If we hired a compete team draft team we could have a team filled with great players right now— but we did nutso things

Now we have note of a team assembled. Need to acquire good players to fit——NOT pay another tram for a 36 going on 37 year old player

Nothing else needs to be said?

Dont like the K. Knox rumors, I aint doing that trade what 12 yrs younger ? than CP3.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/259800/Knicks-Would-Reportedly-Have-To-Include-Kevin-Knox-In-Potential-Chris-Paul-Trade?fbclid=IwAR0xfUzO11TcHAO8zp_XYczup94OV90bzkZfez5nmmHlpkQltO8wwdIIyNc

Who cares what the age difference is if Knox is awful. That being said im not trading anything for Paul. I would take him for Randle and Dsjr

Jmpasq wrote:

DJMUSIC wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:We legitimately don’t even know what we have with current players. We have not one lock player — meaning I know this guys good. Build through draft and smart acquisition like MIAMi and BOStOn

If we hired a compete team draft team we could have a team filled with great players right now— but we did nutso things

Now we have note of a team assembled. Need to acquire good players to fit——NOT pay another tram for a 36 going on 37 year old player

Nothing else needs to be said?

Dont like the K. Knox rumors, I aint doing that trade what 12 yrs younger ? than CP3.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/259800/Knicks-Would-Reportedly-Have-To-Include-Kevin-Knox-In-Potential-Chris-Paul-Trade?fbclid=IwAR0xfUzO11TcHAO8zp_XYczup94OV90bzkZfez5nmmHlpkQltO8wwdIIyNc

Who cares what the age difference is if Knox is awful. That being said im not trading anything for Paul. I would take him for Randle and Dsjr

Can you be totally honest with me.

wtf is the difference between knox and dsj, they were both brutally bad, but at least dsj had death and injuries as a hinderance.

Both of them suffered because of horrendous coaching, terrible preparation, a terrible work ethic, lack of a true role, lack of consistent minutes.

I already know that if knox was traded from dallas and DSJ was drafted by the knicks, Knox would be killed on this board by the homers as well.

Whats reality is that none of the knicks young player are good, have much value (despite being lottery picks)

I am so tired of wrecking good coaches careers with the bull sht players the FO hands them.