[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

Agree with david west.
Author Thread
martin
Posts: 76208
Alba Posts: 108
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
7/28/2020  11:25 AM
David West, who has never played on a Thib's team making comments about Thib's team. Very odd.

Someone should remind West that the Knicks went with somebody young who could probably relate to the players better and Fizdale decided to start RJ, Trier in the backcourt with 3 healthy PGs on the bench and a front line of Portis, Randle and see what he thinks about that.

Also, why is West's opinion on this regarded at all?

Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
AUTOADVERT
jrodmc
Posts: 32927
Alba Posts: 50
Joined: 11/24/2004
Member: #805
USA
7/28/2020  12:45 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/28/2020  12:46 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
joec32033 wrote:The Knicks have had several times when the full front office was minorities (Pres. GM. Coach), they have repeatedly shown that color no bearing on who they hire.


The irony is, of course, what the Knicks have done, WITHOUT CONTEXT, will be evidence to some that you shouldn't hire black coaches nor executives at all. If you have an all black front office regime and it fails again and again, what does that say?

Of course, WITH CONTEXT, having James Dolan as an inept owner and poor resource management ( trading away so many draft picks, poor use of the cap, etc) is more likely a larger culprit for failure.

This is a huge part of the problem. Social media leaves little to no room for context. It allows people to say what they are thinking right as they think it without regard for introspection. And since the NBA cannot generate enough real basketball news to fill a 365/24/7 news cycle, the marketing machine fabricates fake/manipulated conflicts.

Ty Lue doesn't have the skill set or disposition to be a head coach in the NBA.

Mark Jackson and especially Patrick Ewing are a couple of huge ****ing morons. This is the conflict within the general media and sports media. It's apparently impossible for a black athlete or black coach or black executive in sports to be an imbecile. Saying it out loud makes you a target for being called a racist. Michael Vick was a low IQ quarterback in the NFL who happens to also have low life IQ. With the Jets, he had the same problems he had his entire career. But no one could just come out and say it. "Are you saying black people are stupid!" No, they want to say Michael Vick is stupid and whom just happens to be black. Just like Rich Kotite was stupid and just happened to be white. And like most stupid people, Vick ended up doing stupid **** like killing a bunch of dogs then getting caught doing it.

People also don't want to separate the player from the person from the non player career. Jordan was a true franchise player. He is also one of the worst executives in the history of any modern era professional sport.

Of course a low speed high drag mouthbreather like David West will immediately cite that Lue, Jackson and Ewing were all former players. Yes, and do good doctors make good executives to run an entire hospital? Does a great bartender or waitress mean they will be good at running an entire restaurant? Does a good street cop instantly make that person a great future chief of police? The job of being an NBA player is nothing like being an NBA coach nor being an NBA executive. A few rare ones are lucky enough to be skilled at both or all three, nearly all are not.

If David West was 5'8, he'd be working at a Sbarros. Fuck David West.

What has David West done to help the plight of black coaches in professional sports? He cries and demands but won't lift a finger on his own, sounds like a typical suburban stay at home entitled "Karen" who spends all their time doing Soul Cycle and sitting in a Starbucks expecting the lush life that Oprah promised her. David West doesn't need more black coaches, he needs to change his tampon.

As a Knicks diehard, I have nothing but love in my heart for Patrick Ewing the player. But fandom and homerism doesn't go far enough to escape the reality that Ewing is a total ****ing moron. You don't want someone with that toxic set of ego, narcissism, lack of self awareness, lack of critical thinking ability, lack of basic communication skills anywhere near young players and/or the media and/or other coaches/agents/owners/executives. Do you see any other team rushing to hire Patrick Ewing?

If "Karen" West needed his tampon changed and Patrick Ewing was tasked to do the job, guess what? You'd have a puddle of DNA on the ground large enough to keep every different cast of CSI happy and West would have a Kotex shoved in his right ear.

All hail Karen West, Queen of Sbarros

"Son, the sheer volume of words that comes outta your mouth is... exhausting"
... But hilarious.

You really think David West couldn't make it at a Pizza Hut? I mean, seriously, Sbarros are only dirt holes at rest stops on major highways in New Jersey.

TheOne of the many beautiful things about Triple is he rarely provides the positive examples to counter his "vitriol", but as a wise man once said:

Social media leaves little to no room for context. It allows people to say what they are thinking right as they think it without regard for introspection.

Vitriol and tampons, by design, take up a lot of space.

Uptown
Posts: 31322
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 4/1/2008
Member: #1883

7/28/2020  1:07 PM
joec32033 wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Nalod wrote:
ESOMKnicks wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:

As a Knicks diehard, I have nothing but love in my heart for Patrick Ewing the player. But fandom and homerism doesn't go far enough to escape the reality that Ewing is a total ****ing moron. You don't want someone with that toxic set of ego, narcissism, lack of self awareness, lack of critical thinking ability, lack of basic communication skills anywhere near young players and/or the media and/or other coaches/agents/owners/executives. Do you see any other team rushing to hire Patrick Ewing?

I would debate your vitriol against Ewing as a player, but it does not matter now any more. What matters is how good he could be as an NBA coach. Are there any specific facts about his assistant coaching gigs in the NBA and the current head coaching performance at Georgetown that justifies such an unflattering assessment of him?

Same for Mark Jackson, he may have had his flaws as a coach, but he was also pretty darn effective, certainly no more baggage and no fewer accomplishments than Thibs.

Now, I certainly do not think now is the time for Ewing to be given the head coaching job at the Knicks. And I would have preferred Atkinson over Jackson (and Thibs for that matter). But to call them morons, is it really fair or deserved?

If you read up on Mark Jax he really made some bad judgements at GSW. Really bad.
Read up on his marriage issues.
Is that fair to call him a moron? This is just the public stuff. They guy was lucky enough to have gotten the job from the announcer Booth and because he was not vetted as an assistant and put in the work his deficiencies were very evident. does that mean he was a complete ineffective coach? No. But if you want to replicate the 55 wins you have to take the other stuff too. Has he demonstrated proficiency in the areas not strong in? Has he coached since?
Ewing has had a few assistant jobs but did not ascend with other organizations nor get interviews. Is he not being recommended? Let’s be real, the guys that are its because they have demonstrated themselves! Guys like Udoka and Harday are getting recommended and interviews. Ewing outside of being a “Knick great” as a player as not really established a great resume of work. If he did, he’d be our head coach by now.
Ewing was a great player but he was a dick. but he was our dick

Are you really trying to defend that guys post?!? He didn't call Ewing a d***, he said Ewing has lack of critical thinking skills! Terms like lack of critical thinking and or low IQ were/are terms that were usually reserved for black athletes and especially the black quarterbacks during the 70s, 80s and 90s. What evidence or proof are we using to determine that Ewing lacks critical thinking skills?

I am white and I have called plenty of people morons (most people actually) and seen people all the colors of the rainbow demonstrate, in some cases severe, lack of critical thinking skills.

Joe...You are a quality poster and you always add good info. My post wasnt general, it was specific to that poster.

joec32033
Posts: 30609
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #583
USA
7/28/2020  7:43 PM
Uptown wrote:
joec32033 wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Nalod wrote:
ESOMKnicks wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:

As a Knicks diehard, I have nothing but love in my heart for Patrick Ewing the player. But fandom and homerism doesn't go far enough to escape the reality that Ewing is a total ****ing moron. You don't want someone with that toxic set of ego, narcissism, lack of self awareness, lack of critical thinking ability, lack of basic communication skills anywhere near young players and/or the media and/or other coaches/agents/owners/executives. Do you see any other team rushing to hire Patrick Ewing?

I would debate your vitriol against Ewing as a player, but it does not matter now any more. What matters is how good he could be as an NBA coach. Are there any specific facts about his assistant coaching gigs in the NBA and the current head coaching performance at Georgetown that justifies such an unflattering assessment of him?

Same for Mark Jackson, he may have had his flaws as a coach, but he was also pretty darn effective, certainly no more baggage and no fewer accomplishments than Thibs.

Now, I certainly do not think now is the time for Ewing to be given the head coaching job at the Knicks. And I would have preferred Atkinson over Jackson (and Thibs for that matter). But to call them morons, is it really fair or deserved?

If you read up on Mark Jax he really made some bad judgements at GSW. Really bad.
Read up on his marriage issues.
Is that fair to call him a moron? This is just the public stuff. They guy was lucky enough to have gotten the job from the announcer Booth and because he was not vetted as an assistant and put in the work his deficiencies were very evident. does that mean he was a complete ineffective coach? No. But if you want to replicate the 55 wins you have to take the other stuff too. Has he demonstrated proficiency in the areas not strong in? Has he coached since?
Ewing has had a few assistant jobs but did not ascend with other organizations nor get interviews. Is he not being recommended? Let’s be real, the guys that are its because they have demonstrated themselves! Guys like Udoka and Harday are getting recommended and interviews. Ewing outside of being a “Knick great” as a player as not really established a great resume of work. If he did, he’d be our head coach by now.
Ewing was a great player but he was a dick. but he was our dick

Are you really trying to defend that guys post?!? He didn't call Ewing a d***, he said Ewing has lack of critical thinking skills! Terms like lack of critical thinking and or low IQ were/are terms that were usually reserved for black athletes and especially the black quarterbacks during the 70s, 80s and 90s. What evidence or proof are we using to determine that Ewing lacks critical thinking skills?

I am white and I have called plenty of people morons (most people actually) and seen people all the colors of the rainbow demonstrate, in some cases severe, lack of critical thinking skills.

Joe...You are a quality poster and you always add good info. My post wasnt general, it was specific to that poster.

Thank you, appreciate that. Then I misunderstood. The bolded part was what threw me.

~You can't run from who you are.~
Uptown
Posts: 31322
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 4/1/2008
Member: #1883

7/28/2020  8:40 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/28/2020  9:32 PM
joec32033 wrote:
Uptown wrote:
joec32033 wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Nalod wrote:
ESOMKnicks wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:

As a Knicks diehard, I have nothing but love in my heart for Patrick Ewing the player. But fandom and homerism doesn't go far enough to escape the reality that Ewing is a total ****ing moron. You don't want someone with that toxic set of ego, narcissism, lack of self awareness, lack of critical thinking ability, lack of basic communication skills anywhere near young players and/or the media and/or other coaches/agents/owners/executives. Do you see any other team rushing to hire Patrick Ewing?

I would debate your vitriol against Ewing as a player, but it does not matter now any more. What matters is how good he could be as an NBA coach. Are there any specific facts about his assistant coaching gigs in the NBA and the current head coaching performance at Georgetown that justifies such an unflattering assessment of him?

Same for Mark Jackson, he may have had his flaws as a coach, but he was also pretty darn effective, certainly no more baggage and no fewer accomplishments than Thibs.

Now, I certainly do not think now is the time for Ewing to be given the head coaching job at the Knicks. And I would have preferred Atkinson over Jackson (and Thibs for that matter). But to call them morons, is it really fair or deserved?

If you read up on Mark Jax he really made some bad judgements at GSW. Really bad.
Read up on his marriage issues.
Is that fair to call him a moron? This is just the public stuff. They guy was lucky enough to have gotten the job from the announcer Booth and because he was not vetted as an assistant and put in the work his deficiencies were very evident. does that mean he was a complete ineffective coach? No. But if you want to replicate the 55 wins you have to take the other stuff too. Has he demonstrated proficiency in the areas not strong in? Has he coached since?
Ewing has had a few assistant jobs but did not ascend with other organizations nor get interviews. Is he not being recommended? Let’s be real, the guys that are its because they have demonstrated themselves! Guys like Udoka and Harday are getting recommended and interviews. Ewing outside of being a “Knick great” as a player as not really established a great resume of work. If he did, he’d be our head coach by now.
Ewing was a great player but he was a dick. but he was our dick

Are you really trying to defend that guys post?!? He didn't call Ewing a d***, he said Ewing has lack of critical thinking skills! Terms like lack of critical thinking and or low IQ were/are terms that were usually reserved for black athletes and especially the black quarterbacks during the 70s, 80s and 90s. What evidence or proof are we using to determine that Ewing lacks critical thinking skills?

I am white and I have called plenty of people morons (most people actually) and seen people all the colors of the rainbow demonstrate, in some cases severe, lack of critical thinking skills.

Joe...You are a quality poster and you always add good info. My post wasnt general, it was specific to that poster.

Thank you, appreciate that. Then I misunderstood. The bolded part was what threw me.

The bolded was just a bit of background info on labels that was bestowed upon many black athletes in years past and I wanted to know why he felt compelled to claim that Ewing lacked critical thinking skills?

EwingsGlass
Posts: 27500
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 4/29/2005
Member: #893
USA
7/28/2020  8:42 PM
Who’s David West?
You know I gonna spin wit it
BRIGGS
Posts: 53275
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 7/30/2002
Member: #303
7/28/2020  8:57 PM
Let me interject

I could care less what race coaches the Knicks— I could easily say we should hire a Chinese person which would be more than fair.
What I wanted with the Knicks was a new fresh younger direction with younger players who can stay together and build.
I’m scared that we will not do this now— that we will again try to Mcdyess this team. I thing against Tibs as a coach but I agree with West here and he’s Darn well right

RIP Crushalot😞
martin
Posts: 76208
Alba Posts: 108
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
7/28/2020  9:05 PM
BRIGGS wrote:Let me interject

I could care less what race coaches the Knicks— I could easily say we should hire a Chinese person which would be more than fair.
What I wanted with the Knicks was a new fresh younger direction with younger players who can stay together and build.
I’m scared that we will not do this now— that we will again try to Mcdyess this team. I thing against Tibs as a coach but I agree with West here and he’s Darn well right

You can be rightly scared that a Fisher or Fizdale has as much room to **** up as any young coach.

Thibs is a known quantity as far as a coach and won't be the GM at the same time.

Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
Knixkik
Posts: 35445
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #11
USA
7/28/2020  10:02 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/28/2020  10:03 PM
BRIGGS wrote:Let me interject

I could care less what race coaches the Knicks— I could easily say we should hire a Chinese person which would be more than fair.
What I wanted with the Knicks was a new fresh younger direction with younger players who can stay together and build.
I’m scared that we will not do this now— that we will again try to Mcdyess this team. I thing against Tibs as a coach but I agree with West here and he’s Darn well right


I wanted this too, but we tried that the last 3 times with Fizdale, Hornacek, and Fisher. Our plan of action the last 3 hires has been exactly what you are alluding to. At what point do we say maybe this direction isn't working for us under this broadway spotlight and it's time to bring in a more proven commodity that can help fix the culture for real this time that all the others promised to accomplish. If Thibs ends up doing his job than in 5 years maybe there's a young assistant in house that has been growing with this group and can take over when Thibs is ready to hang it up.
joec32033
Posts: 30609
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #583
USA
7/28/2020  10:47 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/28/2020  10:53 PM
Uptown wrote:
joec32033 wrote:
Uptown wrote:
joec32033 wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Nalod wrote:
ESOMKnicks wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:

As a Knicks diehard, I have nothing but love in my heart for Patrick Ewing the player. But fandom and homerism doesn't go far enough to escape the reality that Ewing is a total ****ing moron. You don't want someone with that toxic set of ego, narcissism, lack of self awareness, lack of critical thinking ability, lack of basic communication skills anywhere near young players and/or the media and/or other coaches/agents/owners/executives. Do you see any other team rushing to hire Patrick Ewing?

I would debate your vitriol against Ewing as a player, but it does not matter now any more. What matters is how good he could be as an NBA coach. Are there any specific facts about his assistant coaching gigs in the NBA and the current head coaching performance at Georgetown that justifies such an unflattering assessment of him?

Same for Mark Jackson, he may have had his flaws as a coach, but he was also pretty darn effective, certainly no more baggage and no fewer accomplishments than Thibs.

Now, I certainly do not think now is the time for Ewing to be given the head coaching job at the Knicks. And I would have preferred Atkinson over Jackson (and Thibs for that matter). But to call them morons, is it really fair or deserved?

If you read up on Mark Jax he really made some bad judgements at GSW. Really bad.
Read up on his marriage issues.
Is that fair to call him a moron? This is just the public stuff. They guy was lucky enough to have gotten the job from the announcer Booth and because he was not vetted as an assistant and put in the work his deficiencies were very evident. does that mean he was a complete ineffective coach? No. But if you want to replicate the 55 wins you have to take the other stuff too. Has he demonstrated proficiency in the areas not strong in? Has he coached since?
Ewing has had a few assistant jobs but did not ascend with other organizations nor get interviews. Is he not being recommended? Let’s be real, the guys that are its because they have demonstrated themselves! Guys like Udoka and Harday are getting recommended and interviews. Ewing outside of being a “Knick great” as a player as not really established a great resume of work. If he did, he’d be our head coach by now.
Ewing was a great player but he was a dick. but he was our dick

Are you really trying to defend that guys post?!? He didn't call Ewing a d***, he said Ewing has lack of critical thinking skills! Terms like lack of critical thinking and or low IQ were/are terms that were usually reserved for black athletes and especially the black quarterbacks during the 70s, 80s and 90s. What evidence or proof are we using to determine that Ewing lacks critical thinking skills?

I am white and I have called plenty of people morons (most people actually) and seen people all the colors of the rainbow demonstrate, in some cases severe, lack of critical thinking skills.

Joe...You are a quality poster and you always add good info. My post wasnt general, it was specific to that poster.

Thank you, appreciate that. Then I misunderstood. The bolded part was what threw me.

The bolded was just a bit of background info on labels that was bestowed upon many black athletes in years past and I wanted to know why he felt compelled to claim that Ewing lacked critical thinking skills?

Point taken. Idk much about his "critical thinking skills", however what I know about Ewing (and keep in mind he is my favorite player ever by far):

He was a warrior, but from all accounts he wasn't social. Matter of fact I heard he was extremely abrasive. I know he was credited with some big like Dwight Howard when he was in Orlando. I also know he has never been seriously considered a head coaching candidate for anyone but the Knicks. Patrick getting a chance never comes up for a team Like Sacramento, or Indiana, or Washington or anyone else. There has to be a reason for that. He really has been a pretty non descriptive assistant his entire coaching career. And the fact that the only college job I ever heard him attached to was Georgetown....well...it doesn't seem that he is on the level of some of the leagues rising stars. Take into account he didn't get to coaching until he was 50 (some of these coaches that are talked about have been COACHING and only coaching for 15-20 years on multiple levels, leaves a lot of how he actually does pretty unknown.

And then you come across articles like this that say Ewing rejected the Knicks in 2018.....

https://clutchpoints.com/knicks-rumors-patrick-ewing-rejected-new-york-coaching-interest-in-2018/

~You can't run from who you are.~
TripleThreat
Posts: 23106
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/24/2012
Member: #3997

7/28/2020  11:13 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/28/2020  11:17 PM
ESOMKnicks wrote:I would debate your vitriol against Ewing as a player, but it does not matter now any more. What matters is how good he could be as an NBA coach. Are there any specific facts about his assistant coaching gigs in the NBA and the current head coaching performance at Georgetown that justifies such an unflattering assessment of him?

But to call them morons, is it really fair or deserved?


There's a lot to love about Patrick Ewing when he was a player. Tons actually. I don't remember ever panning him as a player.

Patrick Ewing got the coaching opportunities he did because of David Falk. The guy made so much money for people in the league that it was a small inconvenience to put Ewing on their staff to keep Falk happy. When Ewing burned more rope on his own, he landed with Michael Jordan. And who helped Jordan get all that Nike money and into the ownership group and buried so much of that gambling mess? Falk. So do you think his Airness is going to offer resistance to a fellow Olympian and favored child of his personal rainmaker?

Then Falk basically gave Georgetown MILLIONS to ensure Ewing would get a job there. One the reasons Ewing will better in the college game, like a guy like Mullin, is it gives them a tremendous leg up on recruiting.

Ewing just doesn't have it. Not as an NBA head coach. Not even close. (Maybe he can get to the point of being a functional college coach with elite assistants running things behind the curtain) I do wish him good health though. And I value what he gave to this franchise as a player.

But I should be diplomatic to fellow Knicks fans and because of COVID19. Ewing is NOT a moron. But if he played a game of Connect Four with Rich Kotite, it would definitely end in a tie. Is that better?

GustavBahler
Posts: 42797
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

7/28/2020  11:47 PM
Knixkik wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Let me interject

I could care less what race coaches the Knicks— I could easily say we should hire a Chinese person which would be more than fair.
What I wanted with the Knicks was a new fresh younger direction with younger players who can stay together and build.
I’m scared that we will not do this now— that we will again try to Mcdyess this team. I thing against Tibs as a coach but I agree with West here and he’s Darn well right


I wanted this too, but we tried that the last 3 times with Fizdale, Hornacek, and Fisher. Our plan of action the last 3 hires has been exactly what you are alluding to. At what point do we say maybe this direction isn't working for us under this broadway spotlight and it's time to bring in a more proven commodity that can help fix the culture for real this time that all the others promised to accomplish. If Thibs ends up doing his job than in 5 years maybe there's a young assistant in house that has been growing with this group and can take over when Thibs is ready to hang it up.

Hornacek and Fizdale were on their second gig as HC. They were veteran coaches. Fisher was hired while he was still a player. Zero coaching experience on any level.

Hornacek was good with Xs and Os, developing players, like Frank. Frank still has groin issues to this day. Hornacek was right to give steady minutes, but not too many. Something I hope Thibs takes to heart with draft picks. His undoing was his relationship with his young star. Told a player (his friend) to disrespect him. Believe it turned off teams.

Fizdale seemed to have peaked in Memphis. Not enough attention to detail IMO. Too much improvising.

The young coach I believe some of us are talking about. Would have been a first time NBA head coach. With either NCAA experience, or time as an asst. Like a young JVG/Thibs/Pitino.

We'll see what happens with Thibs. If he says he isnt changing anything, Im not going to expect much. If you cant learn fron your mistakes...

Thibs is known for getting his players to run through brick walls for him.
After the last two stops. Im hoping he will try to help his players avoid the wall entirely.
And still reach their destination.

fishmike
Posts: 53828
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
7/29/2020  11:27 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Let me interject

I could care less what race coaches the Knicks— I could easily say we should hire a Chinese person which would be more than fair.
What I wanted with the Knicks was a new fresh younger direction with younger players who can stay together and build.
I’m scared that we will not do this now— that we will again try to Mcdyess this team. I thing against Tibs as a coach but I agree with West here and he’s Darn well right


I wanted this too, but we tried that the last 3 times with Fizdale, Hornacek, and Fisher. Our plan of action the last 3 hires has been exactly what you are alluding to. At what point do we say maybe this direction isn't working for us under this broadway spotlight and it's time to bring in a more proven commodity that can help fix the culture for real this time that all the others promised to accomplish. If Thibs ends up doing his job than in 5 years maybe there's a young assistant in house that has been growing with this group and can take over when Thibs is ready to hang it up.

Hornacek and Fizdale were on their second gig as HC. They were veteran coaches. Fisher was hired while he was still a player. Zero coaching experience on any level.

Hornacek was good with Xs and Os, developing players, like Frank. Frank still has groin issues to this day. Hornacek was right to give steady minutes, but not too many. Something I hope Thibs takes to heart with draft picks. His undoing was his relationship with his young star. Told a player (his friend) to disrespect him. Believe it turned off teams.

Fizdale seemed to have peaked in Memphis. Not enough attention to detail IMO. Too much improvising.

The young coach I believe some of us are talking about. Would have been a first time NBA head coach. With either NCAA experience, or time as an asst. Like a young JVG/Thibs/Pitino.

We'll see what happens with Thibs. If he says he isnt changing anything, Im not going to expect much. If you cant learn fron your mistakes...

Thibs is known for getting his players to run through brick walls for him.
After the last two stops. Im hoping he will try to help his players avoid the wall entirely.
And still reach their destination.

the bold... if he's the exact same guy from Chi/Minn we got a very good coach who should help to quickly improve the team. If he learns from his mistakes we could have a Tom Coughlin type guy who creates something special and hopefully is a part of a couple chips. The FO has to get him players. He made Chi and Minn better very quickly but like pretty much every NBA coach he's going as far as his best players are taking him.

Here's the thing. He's the FO's first choice because he's their guy. He's the guy they TRUST. I literally cant remember having synergy between the HC/FO in the Dolan era. They all have just been hired guys. I dont think this point should or can be glossed over. We didnt just get a good coach, we got the first choice of our FO, a guy they have had a working relationship with... I have drank many flavors of koolaid with this team and of course this can fail, but I think this combo is an excellent start. Now they just need to build a roster

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
GustavBahler
Posts: 42797
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

7/29/2020  12:15 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/29/2020  12:26 PM
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Let me interject

I could care less what race coaches the Knicks— I could easily say we should hire a Chinese person which would be more than fair.
What I wanted with the Knicks was a new fresh younger direction with younger players who can stay together and build.
I’m scared that we will not do this now— that we will again try to Mcdyess this team. I thing against Tibs as a coach but I agree with West here and he’s Darn well right


I wanted this too, but we tried that the last 3 times with Fizdale, Hornacek, and Fisher. Our plan of action the last 3 hires has been exactly what you are alluding to. At what point do we say maybe this direction isn't working for us under this broadway spotlight and it's time to bring in a more proven commodity that can help fix the culture for real this time that all the others promised to accomplish. If Thibs ends up doing his job than in 5 years maybe there's a young assistant in house that has been growing with this group and can take over when Thibs is ready to hang it up.

Hornacek and Fizdale were on their second gig as HC. They were veteran coaches. Fisher was hired while he was still a player. Zero coaching experience on any level.

Hornacek was good with Xs and Os, developing players, like Frank. Frank still has groin issues to this day. Hornacek was right to give steady minutes, but not too many. Something I hope Thibs takes to heart with draft picks. His undoing was his relationship with his young star. Told a player (his friend) to disrespect him. Believe it turned off teams.

Fizdale seemed to have peaked in Memphis. Not enough attention to detail IMO. Too much improvising.

The young coach I believe some of us are talking about. Would have been a first time NBA head coach. With either NCAA experience, or time as an asst. Like a young JVG/Thibs/Pitino.

We'll see what happens with Thibs. If he says he isnt changing anything, Im not going to expect much. If you cant learn fron your mistakes...

Thibs is known for getting his players to run through brick walls for him.
After the last two stops. Im hoping he will try to help his players avoid the wall entirely.
And still reach their destination.

the bold... if he's the exact same guy from Chi/Minn we got a very good coach who should help to quickly improve the team. If he learns from his mistakes we could have a Tom Coughlin type guy who creates something special and hopefully is a part of a couple chips. The FO has to get him players. He made Chi and Minn better very quickly but like pretty much every NBA coach he's going as far as his best players are taking him.

Here's the thing. He's the FO's first choice because he's their guy. He's the guy they TRUST. I literally cant remember having synergy between the HC/FO in the Dolan era. They all have just been hired guys. I dont think this point should or can be glossed over. We didnt just get a good coach, we got the first choice of our FO, a guy they have had a working relationship with... I have drank many flavors of koolaid with this team and of course this can fail, but I think this combo is an excellent start. Now they just need to build a roster

Would be great if Thibs follows Coughlin's lead with the Giants. Probably wasnt easy for him to change things up. If Thibs doesnt learn from his mistakes, we should be good, agree with that. Also believe he will drive the team until the wheels comes off. How that would play out is anyone's guess.

If Rose wants to go all in with Thibs. Trust being a big reason. OK. Just hope that trust doesmt involve going back to decisions that the next team president has to clean up. Long term commitments to players who will still be on the books, after Thibs, and Rose are gone. And past their expiration date, so to speak.

The smartest thing Mills did as a Knicks exec was hire Perry. Some might not like some of the deals he's made. The biggest ones at a disadvantage. I see a team with the most cap room, lots of picks, extra first rounders, second rounders. And the most stable this team has been when it comes to deal making. Not putting the team in a hole, in a long time. Believe the stability Perry brought in short order has been underappreciated.

If Thibs doesnt learn from his mistakes, we'll be competitive. Also hope to see the front office put the team in a position to stay competitive, if it doesnt work out. Probably have a better chance of sticking as well.

Welpee
Posts: 23162
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/22/2016
Member: #6239

7/29/2020  7:32 PM
Not sure if this was posted, but you can hear David West directly from the horse's mouth:
HofstraBBall
Posts: 27986
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 11/21/2015
Member: #6192

7/30/2020  11:28 AM
+100. When I first saw the David West rant, I thought it was a simple case of someone trying to say the right thing but not having his facts straight. Simply put, a somewhat ignorant attempt at making a broader point.

As you said. the Knicks hired Derik Fisher. Biggest example of taking a run at a high risk candidate who was not the "Best" available option. They then hired an African American GM and Prez. This was followed by a thorough search for new coach which ended up in the hiring of another African American coach in David Fizdale. I mean, did David West not know any of this?

But again, do not think this was as big of a deal as some are making it. Again, just a another guy trying to make a point but just not having all the facts. To me it would have been like a Asian person coming out and pushing for an Asian hire in the NBA or a women pushing for a female hire. West just needed to do a little more research and maybe called out an organization with a BAD track record when it comes to minority hires.

houston20 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
joec32033 wrote:8 of the last 13 Knicks head coaches were black, 7 if you take into account Herb Williams was used twice.

I am very careful discussing racial topics because it usually just ends up with emotion getting in the way (that goes both ways). However David West is out and out wrong here, especially making such comments about a team that has gone about hiring so many minorities. The Knicks have had several times when the full front office was minorities (Pres. GM. Coach), they have repeatedly shown that color no bearing on who they hire.

I respect the message but saying it is racism just because the guy they happen to have hired is white is irresponsible and ignorant. And I love David West as a player. Someone said it before, it trivializes those instances where true racism and bigotry do rear it's ugly head. You can be against hiring Thibs on a professional level, but given that he was the most proven and most successful and had the most proven track record and probably was the most stable(based on experience) of the realistically available coaches, to push all that aside and verbalize, as David West did, that he was just hired because he was white is ignorant. Couldn't it have been the fact after all the horrible decisions they have made, the Knicks needed the most seemingly stable, most solid track record candidate with possibly the least chance to fail?

But just as a white person getting a job just because they are white is wrong, so is calling to hire any minority just because they are a minority is wrong also.

I was not familiar with alot of the out of town interviewees, so I have an open question to anyone: Did any candidate have any comparable past success/track record to Thibs?

yea well maybe you havent been paying attention thats not viewed as a positive here by the anti Thibs crowd which is basically 3 guys saying the same things over and over in every thread.

Thibs wins, makes players better and makes teams better. The improvements when he takes over and slippage when he leaves cant be denied, it can only be spun... so I present you with this argument: "retread"

Imagine interviewing for a job you have demonstrated every desirable skill for an even have the track record to support those skills, yet you were passed over for someone with no experience but pretty ideas because you were a retread.

Joe I am with you. Thibs may or may not work out but he's an excellent coach who coaches to the strengths of his roster. Its a good hire, despite what the retread posters say


I agree with you on your post knicks hiring minority coaches mostly black coaches over last 20 years has been more then any other team. My thing is with people like david west he needs get facts right the knicks have hired more black coaches in 20 year stretch then whole of the nfl, mlb, or nhl has done combined. You know how the nfl needs rooney rule to give black coaches intervies the knicks just hire them more often actually give them chance just in certain cases it hasn't worked out. Look how steve mills and isiah thomas stayed on the knicks for a long period time before getting fired and they got plenty of chances and years they shouldn't have gotten.
'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
HofstraBBall
Posts: 27986
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 11/21/2015
Member: #6192

7/30/2020  12:06 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/30/2020  2:08 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
joec32033 wrote:The Knicks have had several times when the full front office was minorities (Pres. GM. Coach), they have repeatedly shown that color no bearing on who they hire.


The irony is, of course, what the Knicks have done, WITHOUT CONTEXT, will be evidence to some that you shouldn't hire black coaches nor executives at all. If you have an all black front office regime and it fails again and again, what does that say?

Of course, WITH CONTEXT, having James Dolan as an inept owner and poor resource management ( trading away so many draft picks, poor use of the cap, etc) is more likely a larger culprit for failure.

This is a huge part of the problem. Social media leaves little to no room for context. It allows people to say what they are thinking right as they think it without regard for introspection. And since the NBA cannot generate enough real basketball news to fill a 365/24/7 news cycle, the marketing machine fabricates fake/manipulated conflicts.

Ty Lue doesn't have the skill set or disposition to be a head coach in the NBA.

Mark Jackson and especially Patrick Ewing are a couple of huge ****ing morons. This is the conflict within the general media and sports media. It's apparently impossible for a black athlete or black coach or black executive in sports to be an imbecile. Saying it out loud makes you a target for being called a racist. Michael Vick was a low IQ quarterback in the NFL who happens to also have low life IQ. With the Jets, he had the same problems he had his entire career. But no one could just come out and say it. "Are you saying black people are stupid!" No, they want to say Michael Vick is stupid and whom just happens to be black. Just like Rich Kotite was stupid and just happened to be white. And like most stupid people, Vick ended up doing stupid **** like killing a bunch of dogs then getting caught doing it.

People also don't want to separate the player from the person from the non player career. Jordan was a true franchise player. He is also one of the worst executives in the history of any modern era professional sport.

Of course a low speed high drag mouthbreather like David West will immediately cite that Lue, Jackson and Ewing were all former players. Yes, and do good doctors make good executives to run an entire hospital? Does a great bartender or waitress mean they will be good at running an entire restaurant? Does a good street cop instantly make that person a great future chief of police? The job of being an NBA player is nothing like being an NBA coach nor being an NBA executive. A few rare ones are lucky enough to be skilled at both or all three, nearly all are not.

If David West was 5'8, he'd be working at a Sbarros. Fuck David West.

What has David West done to help the plight of black coaches in professional sports? He cries and demands but won't lift a finger on his own, sounds like a typical suburban stay at home entitled "Karen" who spends all their time doing Soul Cycle and sitting in a Starbucks expecting the lush life that Oprah promised her. David West doesn't need more black coaches, he needs to change his tampon.

As a Knicks diehard, I have nothing but love in my heart for Patrick Ewing the player. But fandom and homerism doesn't go far enough to escape the reality that Ewing is a total ****ing moron. You don't want someone with that toxic set of ego, narcissism, lack of self awareness, lack of critical thinking ability, lack of basic communication skills anywhere near young players and/or the media and/or other coaches/agents/owners/executives. Do you see any other team rushing to hire Patrick Ewing?

If "Karen" West needed his tampon changed and Patrick Ewing was tasked to do the job, guess what? You'd have a puddle of DNA on the ground large enough to keep every different cast of CSI happy and West would have a Kotex shoved in his right ear.

All hail Karen West, Queen of Sbarros

"Morons" are people that speak on matters they know nothing about. "Morons" are people that take their simple mindless opinions that lack knowledge or fact and try to project them as truth. How the **** would you know if Jackson or Ewing are "Morons" and lack "Critical Thinking"? Let me guess, your endless posting on fan forums, internet browsing, numerous arm chair GM takes (which you hope are read by more than the 42 eyes usually on them) has given you the ability to speak on how much "Critical Thinking" two Pro athletes and coaches possess? Think there might be more evidence of the the lack of "Critical thinking" right here on the forums. Judging by some of your extended posts, you may be guilty of what you claim those two to have. No offense.

By far the oddest thing about your post was that you felt the best way to combat an obvious incorrect take, by David West, was to attack two other African American coaches. And not based on merit but their "lack of Critical thinking'? I mean why would you point out that although West did have a point that there needs to be more African American coaches in a predominantly African American sport, one can point to the Knicks as one of the better minority hiring organizations in the last 20 years? Or perhaps to the fact that the Knicks currently have several minorities at high positions in the front office. Or even maybe that they have hired minority coaches 2 out of the last 3 coaching searches? Nah, just go right to the attacking the lack of intellect of the African American coaches named in the rant? Hmmm

As for West. His point was misdirected and misinformed. For several reasons including the ones mentioned above. He also failed to judge all the candidates on merit and failed to factor in what the Knicks were looking for. It did not make sense for the Knicks to hire yet another "Hopeful" after failing with several of those types of hires in the last 10 years. He failed to realize that the Knicks, perhaps, were looking for a tougher defensive identity. They wanted a coach that has had more than a couple of years of NBA experience. They may have wanted to have a coach that is going to hold players accountable and have a great work ethic. Did Thibs have any negatives? Absolutely. But think you can say that about any of the mentioned candidates. Think West was trying to make a point but did not take the time to gather all the facts. Par for the course in today's social media environment. Where all can act like they know what they are talking about if the y say it often enough.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
HofstraBBall
Posts: 27986
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 11/21/2015
Member: #6192

7/30/2020  12:10 PM
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Let me interject

I could care less what race coaches the Knicks— I could easily say we should hire a Chinese person which would be more than fair.
What I wanted with the Knicks was a new fresh younger direction with younger players who can stay together and build.
I’m scared that we will not do this now— that we will again try to Mcdyess this team. I thing against Tibs as a coach but I agree with West here and he’s Darn well right


I wanted this too, but we tried that the last 3 times with Fizdale, Hornacek, and Fisher. Our plan of action the last 3 hires has been exactly what you are alluding to. At what point do we say maybe this direction isn't working for us under this broadway spotlight and it's time to bring in a more proven commodity that can help fix the culture for real this time that all the others promised to accomplish. If Thibs ends up doing his job than in 5 years maybe there's a young assistant in house that has been growing with this group and can take over when Thibs is ready to hang it up.

Hornacek and Fizdale were on their second gig as HC. They were veteran coaches. Fisher was hired while he was still a player. Zero coaching experience on any level.

Hornacek was good with Xs and Os, developing players, like Frank. Frank still has groin issues to this day. Hornacek was right to give steady minutes, but not too many. Something I hope Thibs takes to heart with draft picks. His undoing was his relationship with his young star. Told a player (his friend) to disrespect him. Believe it turned off teams.

Fizdale seemed to have peaked in Memphis. Not enough attention to detail IMO. Too much improvising.

The young coach I believe some of us are talking about. Would have been a first time NBA head coach. With either NCAA experience, or time as an asst. Like a young JVG/Thibs/Pitino.

We'll see what happens with Thibs. If he says he isnt changing anything, Im not going to expect much. If you cant learn fron your mistakes...

Thibs is known for getting his players to run through brick walls for him.
After the last two stops. Im hoping he will try to help his players avoid the wall entirely.
And still reach their destination.

the bold... if he's the exact same guy from Chi/Minn we got a very good coach who should help to quickly improve the team. If he learns from his mistakes we could have a Tom Coughlin type guy who creates something special and hopefully is a part of a couple chips. The FO has to get him players. He made Chi and Minn better very quickly but like pretty much every NBA coach he's going as far as his best players are taking him.

Here's the thing. He's the FO's first choice because he's their guy. He's the guy they TRUST. I literally cant remember having synergy between the HC/FO in the Dolan era. They all have just been hired guys. I dont think this point should or can be glossed over. We didnt just get a good coach, we got the first choice of our FO, a guy they have had a working relationship with... I have drank many flavors of koolaid with this team and of course this can fail, but I think this combo is an excellent start. Now they just need to build a roster

Like the Coughlin comparison. Not just becuase I am a Giant fan. Coughlin came in with same reputation of being a hard nose coach, not being flexible with his players and over working them. What the Giants found out is that he taught discipline, held everyone accountable and taught a great work ethic. THINGS NEEDED to excel at a high level. You add the correct talent to that formula and you win Championships.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
GustavBahler
Posts: 42797
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

7/30/2020  1:28 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/30/2020  1:29 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Let me interject

I could care less what race coaches the Knicks— I could easily say we should hire a Chinese person which would be more than fair.
What I wanted with the Knicks was a new fresh younger direction with younger players who can stay together and build.
I’m scared that we will not do this now— that we will again try to Mcdyess this team. I thing against Tibs as a coach but I agree with West here and he’s Darn well right


I wanted this too, but we tried that the last 3 times with Fizdale, Hornacek, and Fisher. Our plan of action the last 3 hires has been exactly what you are alluding to. At what point do we say maybe this direction isn't working for us under this broadway spotlight and it's time to bring in a more proven commodity that can help fix the culture for real this time that all the others promised to accomplish. If Thibs ends up doing his job than in 5 years maybe there's a young assistant in house that has been growing with this group and can take over when Thibs is ready to hang it up.

Hornacek and Fizdale were on their second gig as HC. They were veteran coaches. Fisher was hired while he was still a player. Zero coaching experience on any level.

Hornacek was good with Xs and Os, developing players, like Frank. Frank still has groin issues to this day. Hornacek was right to give steady minutes, but not too many. Something I hope Thibs takes to heart with draft picks. His undoing was his relationship with his young star. Told a player (his friend) to disrespect him. Believe it turned off teams.

Fizdale seemed to have peaked in Memphis. Not enough attention to detail IMO. Too much improvising.

The young coach I believe some of us are talking about. Would have been a first time NBA head coach. With either NCAA experience, or time as an asst. Like a young JVG/Thibs/Pitino.

We'll see what happens with Thibs. If he says he isnt changing anything, Im not going to expect much. If you cant learn fron your mistakes...

Thibs is known for getting his players to run through brick walls for him.
After the last two stops. Im hoping he will try to help his players avoid the wall entirely.
And still reach their destination.

the bold... if he's the exact same guy from Chi/Minn we got a very good coach who should help to quickly improve the team. If he learns from his mistakes we could have a Tom Coughlin type guy who creates something special and hopefully is a part of a couple chips. The FO has to get him players. He made Chi and Minn better very quickly but like pretty much every NBA coach he's going as far as his best players are taking him.

Here's the thing. He's the FO's first choice because he's their guy. He's the guy they TRUST. I literally cant remember having synergy between the HC/FO in the Dolan era. They all have just been hired guys. I dont think this point should or can be glossed over. We didnt just get a good coach, we got the first choice of our FO, a guy they have had a working relationship with... I have drank many flavors of koolaid with this team and of course this can fail, but I think this combo is an excellent start. Now they just need to build a roster

Like the Coughlin comparison. Not just becuase I am a Giant fan. Coughlin came in with same reputation of being a hard nose coach, not being flexible with his players and over working them. What the Giants found out is that he taught discipline, held everyone accountable and taught a great work ethic. THINGS NEEDED to excel at a high level. You add the correct talent to that formula and you win Championships.

Thats not what happened at all. Coughlin was about to be fired because he was riding his players too hard. Ownership told him to ease up,and he did. The rest is history. Hopefully Thibs will go the same route.

HofstraBBall
Posts: 27986
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 11/21/2015
Member: #6192

7/30/2020  2:30 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Let me interject

I could care less what race coaches the Knicks— I could easily say we should hire a Chinese person which would be more than fair.
What I wanted with the Knicks was a new fresh younger direction with younger players who can stay together and build.
I’m scared that we will not do this now— that we will again try to Mcdyess this team. I thing against Tibs as a coach but I agree with West here and he’s Darn well right


I wanted this too, but we tried that the last 3 times with Fizdale, Hornacek, and Fisher. Our plan of action the last 3 hires has been exactly what you are alluding to. At what point do we say maybe this direction isn't working for us under this broadway spotlight and it's time to bring in a more proven commodity that can help fix the culture for real this time that all the others promised to accomplish. If Thibs ends up doing his job than in 5 years maybe there's a young assistant in house that has been growing with this group and can take over when Thibs is ready to hang it up.

Hornacek and Fizdale were on their second gig as HC. They were veteran coaches. Fisher was hired while he was still a player. Zero coaching experience on any level.

Hornacek was good with Xs and Os, developing players, like Frank. Frank still has groin issues to this day. Hornacek was right to give steady minutes, but not too many. Something I hope Thibs takes to heart with draft picks. His undoing was his relationship with his young star. Told a player (his friend) to disrespect him. Believe it turned off teams.

Fizdale seemed to have peaked in Memphis. Not enough attention to detail IMO. Too much improvising.

The young coach I believe some of us are talking about. Would have been a first time NBA head coach. With either NCAA experience, or time as an asst. Like a young JVG/Thibs/Pitino.

We'll see what happens with Thibs. If he says he isnt changing anything, Im not going to expect much. If you cant learn fron your mistakes...

Thibs is known for getting his players to run through brick walls for him.
After the last two stops. Im hoping he will try to help his players avoid the wall entirely.
And still reach their destination.

the bold... if he's the exact same guy from Chi/Minn we got a very good coach who should help to quickly improve the team. If he learns from his mistakes we could have a Tom Coughlin type guy who creates something special and hopefully is a part of a couple chips. The FO has to get him players. He made Chi and Minn better very quickly but like pretty much every NBA coach he's going as far as his best players are taking him.

Here's the thing. He's the FO's first choice because he's their guy. He's the guy they TRUST. I literally cant remember having synergy between the HC/FO in the Dolan era. They all have just been hired guys. I dont think this point should or can be glossed over. We didnt just get a good coach, we got the first choice of our FO, a guy they have had a working relationship with... I have drank many flavors of koolaid with this team and of course this can fail, but I think this combo is an excellent start. Now they just need to build a roster

Like the Coughlin comparison. Not just becuase I am a Giant fan. Coughlin came in with same reputation of being a hard nose coach, not being flexible with his players and over working them. What the Giants found out is that he taught discipline, held everyone accountable and taught a great work ethic. THINGS NEEDED to excel at a high level. You add the correct talent to that formula and you win Championships.

Thats not what happened at all. Coughlin was about to be fired because he was riding his players too hard. Ownership told him to ease up,and he did. The rest is history. Hopefully Thibs will go the same route.

What did I say that did not happen? Never said anything about Coughlin not having to change. Agree with that. Although, I think the stuff about management ready to fire him because of how tough he was might be a bit overblown. Think losing records may have been stronger reasons. And I do not think Coughlin ever stopped demanding players to be tough, hard nosed, accountable, hard working and demanded they pay attention to detail. Like Thibs, don't think that you can change that about coaches. I think the only thing Coughlin changed was his ability to build better relationships with players and how to delegate, to team leaders, the responsibility of holding others accountable.

My point was that Coughlin, like Thibs, is coming in with a reputation of being hard nosed and too hard on players. Which is a separate debate. Think like any smart person, he will make adjustments, as he has said he would and as did Coughlin. But do not think. like Coughlin, his main coaching traits will or need to change. Think he will still push grit, hard work, accountability and toughness. However, do think he realizes that player relationships and monitoring players health may be something he needs to watch. We shall see. Hopefully it is what the Knicks need to start heading towards a chip!

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
Agree with david west.

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy