No winning coach can do it without talent. Miller is good "for now" in contrast to Fiz. In a world that "fair" and "Rewarded for hard work" should exist its easy desire retaining him.

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Are we as fans to think we know if Thibs would detract from a player coming here vs. a super agent? I mean guys, yah really think Rose would prioritize Thibs need to coach as a friend vs. the many good points bought up might be a detriment?
Regarding Thibs defensive rating, does anyone think he might have known all this too? That maybe the issue was the players in part? That he could not reach them? We talking about mostly Wiggins and KAT.
Maybe “Hey Thibs, if you got back in the NBA what would you do different?” “What is it about Minny thats just messed up?”
Maybe as a coach he got the bulls to excel beyond their expectation. Noah we know was really not an intense worker. Rose had massive ego issues and then injuries, and Butler wanted out after Thibs left. Seems to me that the issues in Chicago and Minny were not cured when he left.
I’m not saying he was not at fault, but you had unique circumstances at both places and yet some of you assume all that replicates. Its also assumed Thibs does not evolve himself.
At the very worst did he leave those franchises in better shape then when he got there? Were they poised to get to the next level but he in all actuality have taken them as high as they could go. By doing so “burned them out”?

We tried this already with Fizdale, who I liked when we added him, and I liked last year,

But Miller's success where Fizdale failed proved me wrong.

I think those of us who are against Thibs feel like he will end up just like Fizdale.

Was Fiz's bar so low that anything above it has Miller having "success"?

I'm in the boat that Miller has been a breathe of fresh air after Fiz but after the initial bump it seems like the Knicks are treading water again.

I dont get it. Miller's been good. Suddenly though he's the next Maurice NDour and we are a wretched organization for not seeing this is a key piece moving forward.

There were some great background stories on Miller when he first got the job. My favorite was that JVG asked him to be on his staff because when he was scouting the g league he was so impressed by how prepared Miller’s team was. I think we have seen some of that with the Knicks. The dam can’t shoot but the d is generally good and keeps them in games. They also are a different team when Payton is at the point. I think Miller has earned another year. I have a lot of concerns about Thibs. I also am concerned about a president committing to a coach before he has a gm. I also am concerned that choice is coming from a pool of guys that the pres has a relationship with if what is bein reported is true. The Knicks have used this approach before and it failed miserably. This is just a rumor and I hope it isn’t true. Macri is awesome but his last bomb was that the Knicks would accommodate DSJ’s trade request.

I do like what you are getting at. Maybe Miller doesn't yet have the juice card to deal with Randle?

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/PJacksonsBrain/status/1232340312573476866

and for all the stories about Thibs "running guys into the ground" (which I dont disagree with, but many coaches do it) there are stories of players who adored him and not just Rose/Noah/Taj

Mike Miller wasnt even a winning college coach:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Miller_(basketball,_born_1964)

He absolutely has NOT earned a shot at next year. He's 13-22! When he's got a 500 record and a couple players breaking out in his system lets talk.

This is battered Knick fan syndrome. ITs been so long since we have seen ANY coaching. Folks are just thirsty.

I could not disagree any more. I called this a lost season months ago and you jumped all over me. It was a lost season. Our roster is ****. That the team hasn't completely quit despite being a roster of one year guys who won't be back should not be discounted. I know you think this is battered Knicks syndrome but I think you're drinking whatever nixluva is

Chandler wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

blkexec wrote:This is a good example of the importance of having a talented roster VS a bunch of G league / 1 yr rentals....and how that impacts the coach.

If the Miami coach was coaching the knicks right now (aka Fitz), instead of Miller. We will be saying the same thing about coach Spo. If Miller was the coach of the heat, and won a few championships, we would say Miller is an up and coming NBA coach, who learned from his so so NCAA experience. We need to find a way to steal Miller from Miami!

This brings up an old discussion between the value of a coach vs the players. Does the coach make the players or does the players make the coach?

Will Phil Jackson still be Phil Jackson the great, if he didn't have MJ, Kobe, Shaq, Pipen, Rodman, etc...

Or did we see what Phil Jackson really looks like when surrounded by average to below average NBA players? And if we had MJ, Kobe, Shaq, etc.....do you think Phil Jackson would've turned down the knicks coaching opportunity? Instead, he was probably like, nope, I will not let these bums damage my coaching legacy.

This is why I'm like Miller, Thibs, who cares....at the end of the day, until you can add impactful NBA players, the coach will have little impact on winning, if the talent level as a team is below the NBA average, which is what we've been for years, all you can do if keep drafting and try to find a culture that fosters a winning environment. Thibs is that cultural change someone like Rose would like to have.

This is why every HOF coach / GM that comes here, leaves with scares on their Legacy. The players will make or break the coach.

I agree to acertain extent. But I wouldn't say coaching has no impact. Some guys do influence the flow of the game with their "systems", rotations and ability to get players to understand their roles. I can't remember who coached the Bulls before Phil, but I can tell you the difference Steve Kerr made when GSW moved on from Mark Jackson. It's not just Xs and Os. It's the ability to massage egos and recognize the situations that your players excel in. As for Things, I won't get upset if he's brought in. He's had some success and I'm hoping he's learned from his mistakes. He's not going to be the GM, like he was in Minny. Say what you want about Miller, but he's coached this team up to its talent level. That's the bare minimum from what I understand expect from a coach and Miller has passed that test. I wouldn't mind if he's extended. I would prefer Miller, just for the continuity, but it is what is.

Doug Collins was the Bulls coach. went on to be a tv analyst who sounded like he knew what he was talking about; but Pjax demonstrated sounding good and winning are two different things. People who like JVG and Mark Jackson should keep this in mind.

also agree re coaching. Kerr added a lot of wins to GS with same roster. Budenholzer added a lot of wins with same roster including lose of former #2 pick Jabari Also consider Nick Nurse. He like Miller was a G league guy and took over for COY Casey. Granted his team got more stacked with Kahwi and Marc Gasol but he's proving it again this year that he's legit.

people who dismiss the impact of a coach are dumb -- sorry to be blunt. I have to be so blunt because this dumb **** that it's all about the players has to stop. Yes players are hugely influential but unless you have Lebron or MJ or players in that stratosphere you need a great coach too

the issue is there are a lot of mediocre coaches, a few bad ones and a very few who are stellar. Some of the stellar ones lose their touch too -- see Popovich.

Thibs had his time. In a league where you can't touch anyone without a foul his time has passed. JVG (quitter) and Mark never even had "their time" but to the extent they did it passed too

Not sure who you are talking to, but you responded to me (I think) so I'm assuming your "dumb" comment is in reference to my comment? I'll start by saying, if you are 14 or younger....Then I will simply ignore your lack of vocabulary and disrespect. It's amazing how people get big and bold when talking to a computer. Not once did I ever call you and anybody out of their name. Even if someone disagreed with you, that doesn't make a person dumb.

I'll take the high road and just say, please respond to me with a little more respect. Thank you!

blkexec wrote:

Nalod wrote:
Nalod believes great coaches make good players better. You can't create winning without talent. A great coach gets more out. Phil elevated Jordan. Indisputable. Might another have done just as well or better? Maybe. We'll never know. Jordan no doubt elevated the triangle and Jacksons style. Kobe never won without Phil. Indisputable. Are there other dynamics to it? Of course. But Rudy T had some talented teams with Kobe in his prime and it did not happen. Kobe was also very difficult to coach. Massive ego. Jordan got Phil after 5 years in the league. It was easier for him to accept his coach.
MDA took all star nash and elevated to Twice MVP. Harden from all star to super star.
In each case there is a specific dynamic and not every coach can bring that from team to team. Thus Thibs history cannot be duplicated. One cannot simply transpose his past into a knick future that has different players against an every changing league. For even a KAT/Thibs reunion would need some reconciliation between them. KAT has to buy in or Thibs has to lower his KAT defense expectation and let him play.
There is no "Put Dennis in the DRose role. Entirely different players and make up. Rose was a very unique specimen.
PHil could have coached the knicks and I can't speak to him protecting his legacy but im not sure the roster turnover as it was could not have really gotten the triangle in place. Lets be real, Lakers had teams that did not buy in to it with Kobe and did not win. The Karl Malone/Payton team was a massive disappointment. Phil took the blame in his book. He said he did not coach them proper. If you read his books he at times was self critical. Is he arrogant? sure, he has 11 rings as a coach. Pop is arrogant, Auerbach was arrogant, Riles was, but did it with "Cool", Larry won both NCAA and NBA chips. Arrogant and not likable!!!

No winning coach can do it without talent. Miller is good "for now" in contrast to Fiz. In a world that "fair" and "Rewarded for hard work" should exist its easy desire retaining him.

Thank you for a mature response. "No winning coach can do it without talent." I agree with this and that's my point exactly.

Agree that "no winning coach can do it without talent" but also think that "no talented team can win without a good coach". There have been many examples of both cases.

Do agree that the Knicks are at the point that they realize their main goal should be to get talented/elite players. Looking forward to it. Think it is a big part of building a solid team. Reason for Rose hire. Also feel that its the reason Miller will be replaced. Unfortunately, the way it works in the NBA is that Elite players will not go to a team with a first year coach. If they do it is with the plans to replace them with someone they personally feel comfortable with. In a perfect world, we would attract elite players and give Miller a shot. Who seems to be okay. Not going to claim, like some on here, that he is the second coming of Red Auerbach but he seems to be someone that has a good feel for the game and can motivate players.

SupremeCommander wrote:

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:

franco12 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Are we as fans to think we know if Thibs would detract from a player coming here vs. a super agent? I mean guys, yah really think Rose would prioritize Thibs need to coach as a friend vs. the many good points bought up might be a detriment?
Regarding Thibs defensive rating, does anyone think he might have known all this too? That maybe the issue was the players in part? That he could not reach them? We talking about mostly Wiggins and KAT.
Maybe “Hey Thibs, if you got back in the NBA what would you do different?” “What is it about Minny thats just messed up?”
Maybe as a coach he got the bulls to excel beyond their expectation. Noah we know was really not an intense worker. Rose had massive ego issues and then injuries, and Butler wanted out after Thibs left. Seems to me that the issues in Chicago and Minny were not cured when he left.
I’m not saying he was not at fault, but you had unique circumstances at both places and yet some of you assume all that replicates. Its also assumed Thibs does not evolve himself.
At the very worst did he leave those franchises in better shape then when he got there? Were they poised to get to the next level but he in all actuality have taken them as high as they could go. By doing so “burned them out”?

We tried this already with Fizdale, who I liked when we added him, and I liked last year,

But Miller's success where Fizdale failed proved me wrong.

I think those of us who are against Thibs feel like he will end up just like Fizdale.

Was Fiz's bar so low that anything above it has Miller having "success"?

I'm in the boat that Miller has been a breathe of fresh air after Fiz but after the initial bump it seems like the Knicks are treading water again.

I dont get it. Miller's been good. Suddenly though he's the next Maurice NDour and we are a wretched organization for not seeing this is a key piece moving forward.

There were some great background stories on Miller when he first got the job. My favorite was that JVG asked him to be on his staff because when he was scouting the g league he was so impressed by how prepared Miller’s team was. I think we have seen some of that with the Knicks. The dam can’t shoot but the d is generally good and keeps them in games. They also are a different team when Payton is at the point. I think Miller has earned another year. I have a lot of concerns about Thibs. I also am concerned about a president committing to a coach before he has a gm. I also am concerned that choice is coming from a pool of guys that the pres has a relationship with if what is bein reported is true. The Knicks have used this approach before and it failed miserably. This is just a rumor and I hope it isn’t true. Macri is awesome but his last bomb was that the Knicks would accommodate DSJ’s trade request.

I do like what you are getting at. Maybe Miller doesn't yet have the juice card to deal with Randle?

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/PJacksonsBrain/status/1232340312573476866

and for all the stories about Thibs "running guys into the ground" (which I dont disagree with, but many coaches do it) there are stories of players who adored him and not just Rose/Noah/Taj

Mike Miller wasnt even a winning college coach:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Miller_(basketball,_born_1964)

He absolutely has NOT earned a shot at next year. He's 13-22! When he's got a 500 record and a couple players breaking out in his system lets talk.

This is battered Knick fan syndrome. ITs been so long since we have seen ANY coaching. Folks are just thirsty.

I could not disagree any more. I called this a lost season months ago and you jumped all over me. It was a lost season. Our roster is ****. That the team hasn't completely quit despite being a roster of one year guys who won't be back should not be discounted. I know you think this is battered Knicks syndrome but I think you're drinking whatever nixluva is

13-22 and now we are giddy the team hasnt quit. I just need a little more before I am on the "THATS OUR GUY" wagon. If I was Leon Rose I would need a lot more.

Leon Rose wrote:For the remainder of this season, I will work tirelessly behind the scenes while evaluating every aspect of the organization. Most immediately, we will support Mike Miller, his staff and our team, who have plenty of basketball left to be played this season. I want to thank Mike for his continued leadership and professionalism during this period.

arkrud wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Leon Rose wrote:For the remainder of this season, I will work tirelessly behind the scenes while evaluating every aspect of the organization. Most immediately, we will support Mike Miller, his staff and our team, who have plenty of basketball left to be played this season. I want to thank Mike for his continued leadership and professionalism during this period.

So there we go.. for the Mike Miller fan club folks this is everything you can ask for. For the Mike Miller apathy club this is everything you can ask for.

Rose knows the business. He see the worth of players and coaches alike. It was and is his job and his skill.
It is clear to anyone who understand a bit about basketball that Miller is what doctor ordered for rebuilding team both skill vise and financially.
So it is no surprise Rose will ride with him until the team will be ready for star coach or miller will became one. Win-Win.

The only way mike retains this job is if he wins a lot...like going 15-5 in the last 20 games

New Presidents bring in their own GM's and New Gm's bring in their own coach.

You saw that with Layden, Isaiah, Walsh, Phil and Mills.

Fiz was bad.
Miller has been average. -- An average coach can work wonders on a team that was previously badly coached.

I'd like to get a good to great coach. Not just an average one.

Sambakick wrote:There's good coaches and bad coaches and coaches in between.

Fiz was bad.
Miller has been average. -- An average coach can work wonders on a team that was previously badly coached.

I'd like to get a good to great coach. Not just an average one.

Yeah, I think the Fisher, Rambis, Hornacek and Fiz run of horrors was so bad , Miller looks amazing in comparison, when really he's just average. Sad that we've been so starved for a coach with basic coaching skills, that average looks amazing! Even Woody (who was probably the best coach we had most recently) seemed to lack the ability to make any adjustments, draw up any play other than iso melo and just switched every time on defense.

NYKBocker wrote:Did Mills hire Fiz or was it Perry? I don't remember. If Perry is retained then Miller has a fighting chance to stay as HC.

why would perry be retained?

Is there no one out there better than him, because he's track record is very bad

the best you can do with him is reassigned him to some low level position like they just did with mills