newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks invested a full 82 game season in the name of player development. This was to be the calling card of the org and the coaching staff. If 100% of the attention has been dedicated to player development for which we were happy to sit through a 17 win season for as fans. We should see something better than what we have seen in this area 100 games now invested towards the cause. Fiz didn't have to worry about taking heat from any losses last season. Was given Carte blanche in the name of development. All that was expected was progress from the young players.

And this is all after ignoring everything else wrong and looking for just one aspect of coaching(player development) to be decent after investing 100% attention towards this area smh.

It's fair to be critical of player development at this point, but its unfair to place all the blame on Fiz. The moment the front office signed Morris, Portis, Peyton, Ellington and Bullock, it was clear they had visions of chasing the 8th seed. Development and tanking was the objective last year, this year the objective was to stay in the playoff race as long as possible.

If Fiz is following the orders of the front office and trying to push for the playoffs, of course the vets will get more playing time than the youth as they are more experienced. As a result. Zo gets buried on the bench, Knox loses mins, and if Peyton never got hurt, Frank would be coming off the bench too..The front office didnt spent 70 mil this off season to watch 70 mil worth of players turn into bench cheerleaders during games and mentors to the youth in practice.

So again, how much blame does the front office have in the way this season is playing out?

Uptown wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Uptown wrote:Listen from 4:28-5:00 min mark....This is the mentality we need Dolan to have. Hopefully he ignores the noise from the media who is hungry for headlines and hot takes and impatient fans and stays the course....

You have got to be kidding me with this

W...T..F

If your going to post a video, please let it be from a person who has had a lot of success, not some guy who is still trying to figure it out.

We live in a world of results, especially in sports...

If you lose you get fired, that's sports..period.

Instead of focusing on the messenger, focus on the message which was on-point, accurate, and realistic.

Rivera had been on the job a while and took them as far as they could go. With Newton likely on the outs this new owner wants his guy. Charlotte is starting a new era.

Nalod wrote:

Uptown wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Uptown wrote:Listen from 4:28-5:00 min mark....This is the mentality we need Dolan to have. Hopefully he ignores the noise from the media who is hungry for headlines and hot takes and impatient fans and stays the course....

You have got to be kidding me with this

W...T..F

If your going to post a video, please let it be from a person who has had a lot of success, not some guy who is still trying to figure it out.

We live in a world of results, especially in sports...

If you lose you get fired, that's sports..period.

Instead of focusing on the messenger, focus on the message which was on-point, accurate, and realistic.

Rivera had been on the job a while and took them as far as they could go. With Newton likely on the outs this new owner wants his guy. Charlotte is starting a new era.

That's my point, we started a new era 6 yrs ago, and are we in better shape now...Hell to the NO..

we have what 60 games left, and we aren't favorites to win any of them, not even against GSW. I think fiz will lose the most games in a row by any coach in NBA history

Uptown wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks invested a full 82 game season in the name of player development. This was to be the calling card of the org and the coaching staff. If 100% of the attention has been dedicated to player development for which we were happy to sit through a 17 win season for as fans. We should see something better than what we have seen in this area 100 games now invested towards the cause. Fiz didn't have to worry about taking heat from any losses last season. Was given Carte blanche in the name of development. All that was expected was progress from the young players.

And this is all after ignoring everything else wrong and looking for just one aspect of coaching(player development) to be decent after investing 100% attention towards this area smh.

It's fair to be critical of player development at this point, but its unfair to place all the blame on Fiz. The moment the front office signed Morris, Portis, Peyton, Ellington and Bullock, it was clear they had visions of chasing the 8th seed. Development and tanking was the objective last year, this year the objective was to stay in the playoff race as long as possible.

If Fiz is following the orders of the front office and trying to push for the playoffs, of course the vets will get more playing time than the youth as they are more experienced. As a result. Zo gets buried on the bench, Knox loses mins, and if Peyton never got hurt, Frank would be coming off the bench too..The front office didnt spent 70 mil this off season to watch 70 mil worth of players turn into bench cheerleaders during games and mentors to the youth in practice.

So again, how much blame does the front office have in the way this season is playing out?

Your really not making a case if anything your pointing out how bad Fizdale is. He is given veterans and has posted a worse record than last year at this point in time. What are you trying to tell us that he is a good coach? No one here is absolving management. They make stupid moves that basically **** block their players.
Fizdale has an opportunity to teach and develop players and I hate to say it but the player have shown marginal if any improvements. He is a year and 20 games in. And he has lost players that means he is gone stale. One thing I know is players know. One they know he is a lame duck, two they know he isn’t very good, three young players in this day and age hate being jerked around. In the past they would take it as constructive criticism but now not so much. That first game when he started that ridiculous lineup what was the most insulting thing you could do to a player is start a out of position player in their spot. All the point guards took notice of this as well as the other players like the vets who automatically think is he giving us the best chance to win.

Uptown wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks invested a full 82 game season in the name of player development. This was to be the calling card of the org and the coaching staff. If 100% of the attention has been dedicated to player development for which we were happy to sit through a 17 win season for as fans. We should see something better than what we have seen in this area 100 games now invested towards the cause. Fiz didn't have to worry about taking heat from any losses last season. Was given Carte blanche in the name of development. All that was expected was progress from the young players.

And this is all after ignoring everything else wrong and looking for just one aspect of coaching(player development) to be decent after investing 100% attention towards this area smh.

It's fair to be critical of player development at this point, but its unfair to place all the blame on Fiz. The moment the front office signed Morris, Portis, Peyton, Ellington and Bullock, it was clear they had visions of chasing the 8th seed. Development and tanking was the objective last year, this year the objective was to stay in the playoff race as long as possible.

If Fiz is following the orders of the front office and trying to push for the playoffs, of course the vets will get more playing time than the youth as they are more experienced. As a result. Zo gets buried on the bench, Knox loses mins, and if Peyton never got hurt, Frank would be coming off the bench too..The front office didnt spent 70 mil this off season to watch 70 mil worth of players turn into bench cheerleaders during games and mentors to the youth in practice.

So again, how much blame does the front office have in the way this season is playing out?

The moment the front office signed Morris, Portis, Peyton, Ellington and Bullock, it was clear they had visions of chasing the 8th seed.

Now the difference between now and previous regimes is in the past we would have traded young guys and picks for ****ty veterans to help us "because we believe in this team." Has that happened?

The FO took a shot at improving the team and the only cost is some very short term development to the young guys who lost minutes early in the season. However we are on a collision course with another tank. Morris will fetch an asset after the holidays. Portis is trash. Ellington is a throw in. The point is the last 30-40 games are going to be tank city with the young guys getting big minutes again and you will get long look again at Trier, Iggy, etc

Its very possible at that time to switch coaches for developmental reasons or some jazz. We'll see.

I am not defending Fizdale. I dont like him. I am not defending the FO either. However if we get something useful for Morris and spend the last 40+ games playing the kids and losing games we accomplish the same as a pure tank. That is the hedge and its a solid management plan considering our situation. The difference between good and bad FOs is when things fail the good ones have backup plans, even if its just developing guys and scouting. Perry has not been here very long. I hate Mills as much as everyone else. Is what it is.

arkrud wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks invested a full 82 game season in the name of player development. This was to be the calling card of the org and the coaching staff. If 100% of the attention has been dedicated to player development for which we were happy to sit through a 17 win season for as fans. We should see something better than what we have seen in this area 100 games now invested towards the cause. Fiz didn't have to worry about taking heat from any losses last season. Was given Carte blanche in the name of development. All that was expected was progress from the young players.

And this is all after ignoring everything else wrong and looking for just one aspect of coaching(player development) to be decent after investing 100% attention towards this area smh.

It's fair to be critical of player development at this point, but its unfair to place all the blame on Fiz. The moment the front office signed Morris, Portis, Peyton, Ellington and Bullock, it was clear they had visions of chasing the 8th seed. Development and tanking was the objective last year, this year the objective was to stay in the playoff race as long as possible.

If Fiz is following the orders of the front office and trying to push for the playoffs, of course the vets will get more playing time than the youth as they are more experienced. As a result. Zo gets buried on the bench, Knox loses mins, and if Peyton never got hurt, Frank would be coming off the bench too..The front office didnt spent 70 mil this off season to watch 70 mil worth of players turn into bench cheerleaders during games and mentors to the youth in practice.

So again, how much blame does the front office have in the way this season is playing out?

blame is part of the problem. There is no recognition of a process by the fans and many of these posters. "This isnt working, everyone sucks" seems to be the highest level some of these posters can grasp, and that is ok, that is part of fandom and pro sports.

The moment the front office signed Morris, Portis, Peyton, Ellington and Bullock, it was clear they had visions of chasing the 8th seed.

And there is nothing wrong with that, and if DSjr, Frank, Knox, Mitch, Dotson take steps forward and RJ is an impact rookie when you look at the East the 8th seed is something you can see the roster fighting for.

Now the difference between now and previous regimes is in the past we would have traded young guys and picks for ****ty veterans to help us "because we believe in this team." Has that happened?

The FO took a shot at improving the team and the only cost is some very short term development to the young guys who lost minutes early in the season. However we are on a collision course with another tank. Morris will fetch an asset after the holidays. Portis is trash. Ellington is a throw in. The point is the last 30-40 games are going to be tank city with the young guys getting big minutes again and you will get long look again at Trier, Iggy, etc

Its very possible at that time to switch coaches for developmental reasons or some jazz. We'll see.

I am not defending Fizdale. I dont like him. I am not defending the FO either. However if we get something useful for Morris and spend the last 40+ games playing the kids and losing games we accomplish the same as a pure tank. That is the hedge and its a solid management plan considering our situation. The difference between good and bad FOs is when things fail the good ones have backup plans, even if its just developing guys and scouting. Perry has not been here very long. I hate Mills as much as everyone else. Is what it is.

+1
Just the truth... always not so exiting, especially for excitable fire-weather fans.

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Uptown wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks invested a full 82 game season in the name of player development. This was to be the calling card of the org and the coaching staff. If 100% of the attention has been dedicated to player development for which we were happy to sit through a 17 win season for as fans. We should see something better than what we have seen in this area 100 games now invested towards the cause. Fiz didn't have to worry about taking heat from any losses last season. Was given Carte blanche in the name of development. All that was expected was progress from the young players.

And this is all after ignoring everything else wrong and looking for just one aspect of coaching(player development) to be decent after investing 100% attention towards this area smh.

It's fair to be critical of player development at this point, but its unfair to place all the blame on Fiz. The moment the front office signed Morris, Portis, Peyton, Ellington and Bullock, it was clear they had visions of chasing the 8th seed. Development and tanking was the objective last year, this year the objective was to stay in the playoff race as long as possible.

If Fiz is following the orders of the front office and trying to push for the playoffs, of course the vets will get more playing time than the youth as they are more experienced. As a result. Zo gets buried on the bench, Knox loses mins, and if Peyton never got hurt, Frank would be coming off the bench too..The front office didnt spent 70 mil this off season to watch 70 mil worth of players turn into bench cheerleaders during games and mentors to the youth in practice.

So again, how much blame does the front office have in the way this season is playing out?

blame is part of the problem. There is no recognition of a process by the fans and many of these posters. "This isnt working, everyone sucks" seems to be the highest level some of these posters can grasp, and that is ok, that is part of fandom and pro sports.

The moment the front office signed Morris, Portis, Peyton, Ellington and Bullock, it was clear they had visions of chasing the 8th seed.

And there is nothing wrong with that, and if DSjr, Frank, Knox, Mitch, Dotson take steps forward and RJ is an impact rookie when you look at the East the 8th seed is something you can see the roster fighting for.

Now the difference between now and previous regimes is in the past we would have traded young guys and picks for ****ty veterans to help us "because we believe in this team." Has that happened?

The FO took a shot at improving the team and the only cost is some very short term development to the young guys who lost minutes early in the season. However we are on a collision course with another tank. Morris will fetch an asset after the holidays. Portis is trash. Ellington is a throw in. The point is the last 30-40 games are going to be tank city with the young guys getting big minutes again and you will get long look again at Trier, Iggy, etc

Its very possible at that time to switch coaches for developmental reasons or some jazz. We'll see.

I am not defending Fizdale. I dont like him. I am not defending the FO either. However if we get something useful for Morris and spend the last 40+ games playing the kids and losing games we accomplish the same as a pure tank. That is the hedge and its a solid management plan considering our situation. The difference between good and bad FOs is when things fail the good ones have backup plans, even if its just developing guys and scouting. Perry has not been here very long. I hate Mills as much as everyone else. Is what it is.

What team is going to give up assets for MORRIS who can walk away in 3 months and sign wherever he wants.

What contender can absorb his 15 million dollar salary without giving up Key pieces on their own roster.

You already know how this FO thinks, they are not taking back any salary beyond 2020.

arkrud wrote:Veterans were brought here not to win (as they cannot) but to be included in trades and feel the void in-between young players.
To provide reasonable competition in practices and personal professional advice.
Fiz goals are not only develop youth but also maintain or if possible improve the trade value of the short term vets by providing playing time to generate stats.
I believe he was not given any directions to win at any cost a couple of more games that this ragtag group of misfits can.
So I doubt he will be fired in isolation of firing the whole FO.
This kind of plan assumes losing and losing for a long time.
So buckle up to see a lot of this moving forward.

If vets were brought in to be traded then the Knicks will have to take back players and salary in return. I don’t believe for one moment the vets were brought in to trade.

Uptown wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks invested a full 82 game season in the name of player development. This was to be the calling card of the org and the coaching staff. If 100% of the attention has been dedicated to player development for which we were happy to sit through a 17 win season for as fans. We should see something better than what we have seen in this area 100 games now invested towards the cause. Fiz didn't have to worry about taking heat from any losses last season. Was given Carte blanche in the name of development. All that was expected was progress from the young players.

And this is all after ignoring everything else wrong and looking for just one aspect of coaching(player development) to be decent after investing 100% attention towards this area smh.

It's fair to be critical of player development at this point, but its unfair to place all the blame on Fiz. The moment the front office signed Morris, Portis, Peyton, Ellington and Bullock, it was clear they had visions of chasing the 8th seed. Development and tanking was the objective last year, this year the objective was to stay in the playoff race as long as possible.

If Fiz is following the orders of the front office and trying to push for the playoffs, of course the vets will get more playing time than the youth as they are more experienced. As a result. Zo gets buried on the bench, Knox loses mins, and if Peyton never got hurt, Frank would be coming off the bench too..The front office didnt spent 70 mil this off season to watch 70 mil worth of players turn into bench cheerleaders during games and mentors to the youth in practice.

So again, how much blame does the front office have in the way this season is playing out?

I don't get this logic at all. Are you saying KK, Frnak, Mitch developed with Fizz, or not?

My own sense is no. KK's best development was putting on mass this off season. Frank and Fiba, and Mitch is going backwards. He had his most development last year when working with DJ and Kerry Kittles who isn't even associated with the team. I'm leaving DSJ out of it because of his situation but if he was included it would be even more damning