mlby1215 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:What are Knick fans living in a bubble about? Most know the long history of losing and bad management. We all know we have an owner who only cares about appearances and stock prices. Think most are focused on the hope that this finally looks like a true rebuild. How it ends? No one knows.

Don't think you can find ONE fan on here that thought Melo was not past his prime when he left. Nor many that thought he was worth maxing out with a NTC. The whole Melo argument was about ONE thing, for me. We finally had an "All Star" player that wanted to come to NY and as usual, we screwed it all up.

BTW. Think comparing the success of the Triangle, which was being pushed by a FO guy not a coach, and had players maxing out the cap space on the roster to the success of Fiz as he navigates through failed players, 10 day contracts, 19 and 20 year old starters is unfair and completely misses the reasoning behind opposing the Triangle, Phil or judging Fiz. Fact is the FO has begun a true rebuild. Anyone that expected the team to have had any other result than what is going on now, was not paying attention. No one hated Phil. It was my opinion that hiring a 70 plus former coach with NO FO experience who pushed an antiquated system of basketball was the WORST choice for the Knicks. As we are seeing now a A TRUE rebuild starts with scrapping everything, adding young assets, mounting up picks and hiring a promising young coach to do so. NOT by hiring an aging former coach whos main goal was to keep the Triangle alive. IMO

Okay, first I am not here to insult people, but when I said "bubble", I didn't mean "yeah we are good" that kind of bubbles, but we are fed with the narratives NY media producing.

For example, "NY Knicks are bad because Dolan is bad". It is wrong. Dolan always does what fans want him to, eventually, almost. Fans want stars, he signed them. Fans want to tank, then he goes to tank. Fans wants famous coach/gm/prez, he find them. At the end, it all failed but it doesn't mean he didn't follow the "advices" fans were giving.

When it fails, it is all about Dolan. It is one of the narrative. It is the bubble NY media created for people to stay in.

Second, Triangle was holding Melo back. He could have been much better if there was no triangle. It is another narrative. "Melo will be much better if he is not ill-treated by Phil" is another bubble. It turns out he is super stubborn and will not change wherever he goes.

Third, this year Fiz is doing better because his team is weak and cap is not totally used. It is wrong. All the years Knicks are capped. Today we have Noah capped it and at the time Amare capped it, and Amare had much larger salary with much lower top limit. So what is the reason they can't be compared? Fiz is in first year but Fisher or Jeff were not? They had a very strong team? not full of 10 days or washed-out? At least this team had got a lot of lottery pick players.

This is another narrative.

I can list a lot. For example, Melo was loyal. I do not say he didn't, but he always signed with the one which gave him most money. How do you know he was loyal by choosing Knicks? We always gave him the best contract.

And for example, people wanted out because they are selish and/or greedy. Lin, Kanter, KP, to name a few. Are they all traitors?

And Knicks players didn't want to play in Triangle. Who? Lance Thomas? He wouldn't get a contract if he didn't play in triangle. Every player would love Triangle except who can create the chance on his own. Please, they are all employees. Why did they not like to shoot? shooting more = score more = money.

But where did this narrative come from? NY media fed you.

Why did Phil want to prove Triangle work? It is another narrative. If I were Phil, I would wish Triangle always fail. Because it would prove that I won 11 rings because I was a genius. I won them all on my own.

This guy, won 11 rings by using it. If you were him, why didn't you choose it again? It is just a rational choice.

I can tell you that people really hate Phil in a very personal way. Because they thought Melo = the only pride Knicks had, and Phil insulted him. (at least they thought also) They felt like Phil insulted Knicks. I don't blame ppl hating him because I understand the feeling.

I can list a whole lot. Currently the strongest narrative is that KP is a traitor but we have Perry so it is okay. The cap room we get will sign KD and Kyrie, and they will team with Zion. This managemennt has planed all things well.

Again I am not here to insult. I do not say fans living in bubble that Knicks is a strong team. They are living in a bubble that they as fans are not the problem. They are the problem, and media all these years knew too well to use the fans to get what they wanted.

Dolan always listen to fans, and it is why he failed.

Here is the thing, for someone claiming that everyone is in a "Bubble" fed by the media, your pushing a lot of the same narratives that were subjective, speculative and sprouted by the media. Just because you decide to agree with the ones that fit your opinion does not make them anything less.

You claim Dolan is not bad yet go on to say that he does everything that the fans want? That in itself is 'BAD" management. Would it be "Not bad" if we just had a phone in line as the source of basketball decisions? And I disagree, every decision Dolan makes is based on how it affects the value of the franchise not the fans.

Don't understand your narrative about Melo. Seems like that may be the main issue for you. As you seem to want to attach the failure of the Triangle and Phil to Melo. And again, you claim fans are manipulated by the media yet your clinging to many media narratives started about Melo. How bout we use simple logic and keep opinions out. What is the logic in hiring a 70 plus year old man, with no previous FO experience, who insisted on running a system famous in the 90's to lead your rebuild of a team in the "Modern Day" basketball era?

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:KP says to fans stay woke
He’s clearly implying the BS that the NY front office put out there is not true

In my humble outsider opinion

Knicks have been told that they will be high on a list if there is a team up scenario
They like Anthony Davis more than KP
They try to deal THj to create this super team
No one really wanting to play ball unless KP attached to THJ and CLee

The Knicks realize they can’t get AD with KP anyway, because KP has a QO card to play with.
Once KP finds out he’s being offered for AD
He loses it and says F this I’m outta here

Knicks get as many assets as possible for KP
Hoping they can flip possibly three picks for AD

Now Knicks are after AD - they offering Dallas two picks and possibly their own 2019 pick.
Then summer they try to sign Kyrie or Durant to play with AD.

Knicks thinking bigger than KP. KP figures this out and forces his way to an ideal situation to Dallas. This is all business. Once KP was offered for AD, his people were definitely contacted to gage interest in his desire to sign a longterm contract in New Orléans. Once KP knew Ny was no longer valuing him as their guy, he forced a trade to Dallas.

Ian Begley even writes how New Orleans didn’t want KP becuse they felt he wasn’t going to stay with them. How would they know? From KPs camp. Once KPs camp knew he was being shopped for AD, that’s the straw that broke the camels back.

Given some of the top FAs are two way players, it may not be a horrible idea to try and pair KD-AD or KD-KL add a guard like Rubio to chase a ring and may be Tony Parker. AD only wants to play in LA so I am not sure why the FO would pull this move to get him. But they should like AD better than KP, he is a superior player. The problem is in the thinking clearing cap space means any of the top 3-4 will come here: KD, KL, KT or AD by trade

We will probably go after the second tier players and overpay just like we did with Melo and Amare. Of those I would like Butler or Kemba, but don't want Kyrie or Boogie. But none of these guys will make chasing out KP worth it.

Again, I have no idea if KP got passed because he read on the block or if his brother and him decided they were too good for NY before anyone ever tried to trade him. The timing of these things seems fuzzy at this time.

Parker is signed thru next year and do you really think Rubio signing for min?

Can we not give him the MLE or a large part of it? Should be close to 9M?
Also thought we would have at least 9M in cap after signing 2 max if we don't sign anyone else.
Teague has a team option, Rubio, Rondo, Beverly and Temple are all UFAs
Green and Reezy among available 2 guards and Tyreke. Redick is too old but still worth a look ti round out a contending roster
Damarre Carrol, Thad Young, Mirotic etc. are available forwards

I am only looking at players that won't demand a 15+ M contract or may be willing to be a ring chaser.

You shouldn't be asking me if it is possible. Go look it up and inform yourself and then make some suggestions as to what the Knicks can do and what Rubio and the rest will do.

Sorry, I don't have time to invest in learning cap rules. From what I did read up on, it looked like trans have MLE to sign players one they got the cap.

kinda lame answer. Takes about a minute to go look it up

Pretty sure that's called willful ignorance, not a good look

Ok, send me link. And it's called lack of interest, but you can call it whatever you like.

google.com. Larry Coon's salary cap mega page. MLE. Any of those work. This is 2019, not 1995 with just AOL and CompuServe

If it's a lack of interest stop posting uninformed stuff about anything salary cap, or quite frankly anything. It's just dumb man. Willful ignorance.

This is a bit thick, I asked a question all this wilful ignorance stuff is a overreaction. For all the uninformed **** that gets posted here you choose to single me out, that's fine. Your forum, your previlige. You want me to stop posting here, that's fine. That I can deal with it. Just to be clear, I didn't grow up in a country where basketball is even played competitively. I joined this forum to learn about it, at least initially. I didn't start following basketball till my early 30s. And I have learned some good stuff here, but I also have put up with enough bull**** from people who have forced the identity of other posters on me. I may not be a basketball expert, but I do understand team play, structured and disciplined execution and I have always wanted to see those things. But given what this thing has become, I suppose I better move on.

Cheers

The most honest post you have ever written. Fact is everyone on here gets combative. Self included. Not worth going back and seeing who escalated first but feel that if you treat people with respect and keep it to basketball you mostly gets same in return. Feel if you take it to the gutter most on here can go there with you. Think if you owned up to what you said above and toned it down on the hate, you may have had a different experience. Fact is, you would come out pretty hard against opposing views. As I have many times. With that said, NO ONE on here does more than just guess on what should or can be done regarding Knicks. Me included. Fact is we can all have our opinions and you know what they say about that. So take this stuff with a grain of salt. Its a place to talk somewhat sensical ****. Don't think Martin is against that. Do think he points out to many that they should back what they claim to be true. And agree, many on here do the same thing. But what do I know...

fair response.

feel like we shouldn't hold the line low when posting about anything. Knicks, basketball, sports, not sports, anything. You don't know something, take a minute to inform. If you can't find, ask. If laziness is your go-to, it will show up in other aspects. Jumping into a discussion and blathering on without listening, without informing, without some curiosity, without some willingness to do even a modicum of investigation is absolutely a bad look

You have defined your space and stated your opinion as a fact.
I tried to tell you clearly that I don't care to learn about NBA's arcane salary cap rules. If you think you want to disallow people with that position from "blathering" on your forum, it's your right to do so. I think places like this should try to be inclusive and help grow the popularity of the sport instead of creating artificial measures for ignorance, but what do I know?

Thanks for letting me post here, and since I am not providing anything of additional value, I will happily stop posting here. And there's no need to keep going back and forth over this. Your forum, your rules.

Adios

I was never in love with KP, only KP's potential....which was derailed by injury, and outside influence. So it was easy for me to divorce my feelings. I'm actually happy to see we have a FO that’s not afraid to make these hard decisions, even if it could impact ticket sales. I for one, didn't understand why Phil wanted to trade KP, but I wasn't against the original idea, because I felt KP's floor was close to the Chicago 7fter. Fast forward to now, that appears to be true. But living in Dallas, enjoying this weather and having less media pressure might be a savoir for KP's career.

arkrud wrote:
Dolan is a businessman and his bbal business was and is very profitable and has absolutely astonishing investment return and value grows.
If anything he is the only winner after all.
Fans want positive emotions from team winning and greatness of the players they root for.
NY Knicks fans get non of this for 20 years. We are the biggest losers in all this.
So the question is are we a part of the problem which makes us losers?
Do we have any control? I will argue "we" collectively are.
Too many show no patience, no respect to the game, but just desire for instant gratification with baseless gambles and sturpanching.
If we want to help the team to slowly became a winner from the prolific clown show it has been for 20 years we need to temper our expectations and let bbal people do their job for whatever seasons it will be necessary.

Yes, I actually agree with you about the latter part. I once said Knicks is the mirror image of the fans' mentality, collectively. We actually "MADE" this team (and the teams before). I don't know why but Dolan cares a LOT what fans think, collectively.

This is why I first was confused why NY media called out Phil Jackson everyday and suggested "Dolan should do what he should". Excuse me, isn't that he never listened? At the time I did not understand.

Now I do. NY media, as a whole, knows who Dolan really is. He is a loyal but clueless Knicks fan who always looks for approval from someone else in bball industry. He did what fans thought he should do, and fans got the idea from the NY media. He is a very successful businesman, but in the circle of NBA owners, who isn't?

I always think the management should be the one calling the shot. It is not wrong Mills sending KP away. It is not wrong this team sucks. It is not wrong to give time and power to Fiz to shape the team to be what he wants. It is all reasonable.

What I am troubled with is the double standard. The hypocrisy. Did they use the same standard to read the era of Phil Jackson? If the deal of Noah made you so angry, do you have the same anger about the deal of THjr? If 80-166 made you think it was the worst record in the history, what do you think about 39-100 Mills currently has? If you think Phil was wrong to talk about Melo thus lower his value, what do you think about not playing Noah and Kanter at all so they had to be waived? I could list countless examples on and on.

HofstraBBall wrote:
Here is the thing, for someone claiming that everyone is in a "Bubble" fed by the media, your pushing a lot of the same narratives that were subjective, speculative and sprouted by the media. Just because you decide to agree with the ones that fit your opinion does not make them anything less.

You claim Dolan is not bad yet go on to say that he does everything that the fans want? That in itself is 'BAD" management. Would it be "Not bad" if we just had a phone in line as the source of basketball decisions? And I disagree, every decision Dolan makes is based on how it affects the value of the franchise not the fans.

Don't understand your narrative about Melo. Seems like that may be the main issue for you. As you seem to want to attach the failure of the Triangle and Phil to Melo. And again, you claim fans are manipulated by the media yet your clinging to many media narratives started about Melo. How bout we use simple logic and keep opinions out. What is the logic in hiring a 70 plus year old man, with no previous FO experience, who insisted on running a system famous in the 90's to lead your rebuild of a team in the "Modern Day" basketball era?

It is not my speculation. It is what has actually happened in this physicial world. For example, did Dolan always go to the direction fans wanted him to? Fans wanted famous names? He tried his best to give fans most famous names. Fans wanted superstars. Did he go cheap and not to try? Now fans wanted to tank, so he tanked. But currently we should look for mega stars right? So it is what going to happen.

I don't think Dolan would care a lot about the value of the company when he tried to make a bball decision. If he owned a team not in NY, he would. But in NY, he is just playing a video game with unliimted money. It doesn't matter what he did, Knicks is still worth 4 billions because its ass is sitting on NYC. This is why he actually can do what fans wanted him to do. It is like his hobby! It would not change a bit even it was bad managed.

I didn't say why Knicks failed when they used Triangle. Actually I didn't even think it has ever failed. Do you think Pick&Roll failed when Knicks players didn't do it well? Do you think modern brand of bball fail because Fiz can't use it well?

But if we try to come down why Knicks couldn't use it well, I can think of some possible reasons. (Now it is what we can call subjective) The offense takes more than a year to perfect but to max the flexibility Phil usually tried to sign ppl short-term. It means everyone looking for themselves.

Second Melo didn't like it for whatever reason. He liked to shoot the ball and/or he had no patience to pass the ball to someone worse than him. Again is he wrong? Why don't we ask OKC or HOU? They don't play Triangle.

When Melo didn't like it, then NY media didn't like it too. Why did they side with the prez who would leak nothing to them? Phil was bad for business.

At the end, if you want to say I tried to tie the failure of Triangle with Melo, it is wrong. I didn't tie it, like I don't tie the failure of this team with whatever Fiz tried to use.

What is the logic in hiring a 70 plus year old man, with no previous FO experience, who insisted on running a system famous in the 90's to lead your rebuild of a team in the "Modern Day" basketball era?

Becaue this 70+ old man won 11 rings and he had 50 years in this industry and 30 years exps in dealing with FO of his old teams. He knew inside and out of players and FO. Actually his gf (at the time) is the owner. He even knew the perspective of ownership. From 2015, the coaches who won the NBA champions all played for him and learned from him. He won the last champ in 2011, not 90s. After he killed off Knicks, he went to LA and won 5 more.

"He has no FO experience. He is clueless" is one of the most outrageous narratives.

What he really didn't know is the NY media. He was always loved wherever he went because he won. He didn't expect he would get this treatment, especially he actually was a old Knicks.

I mean I am not going to change your mind, but as a Knicks fan you should have a sixth sense that Mills is going to burn the house down. He has caps, and he is not going to waste them.

At the end if you think everything NY media told you is true and nothing but true, I will not go to argue with that. It would be okay you think I am living in a "bubble" but you are not. It is all fine. I can take it. Actually I regret to use the word "bubble". I should have known it would trigger someone.

mlby1215 wrote:

blkexec wrote:I'm late to this discussion, and it clearly took a left turn somewhere. I'm currently not interested in catching up to why it turned left, so I'll just stick to the thread title.

I was never in love with KP, only KP's potential....which was derailed by injury, and outside influence. So it was easy for me to divorce my feelings. I'm actually happy to see we have a FO that’s not afraid to make these hard decisions, even if it could impact ticket sales. I for one, didn't understand why Phil wanted to trade KP, but I wasn't against the original idea, because I felt KP's floor was close to the Chicago 7fter. Fast forward to now, that appears to be true. But living in Dallas, enjoying this weather and having less media pressure might be a savoir for KP's career.

https://nypost.com/2019/02/10/porzingis-depreciating-value-left-dallas-deal-as-knicks-top-option/

Former team president Phil Jackson thought the Finnish big man was built sturdier than Porzingis and would become more durable.

I think it is the reason. Phil always wants players can pass, and hates those get injured easily. He takes it that some players are prone to get injures, and it will never be changed. I remember this is the reason he traded away Iman Shumpert, as he assumed he was injures prone.

It does not matter if it is triangle or position-less or whatever.
The NBA team is a project. To be successful it has to go through design, groundwork, implementation, and tuneup phases.
What Knicks did last 20 years was not a project but very expensive video game when one entering the game with a bunch ob $$$, buying in some weapons, and then when they all crash and burn, hitting the reset button and does it over and over again.
The game is everything, the result is nothing.
Probably cool for the gambler but not a fan for those who watching. Boring to say the list. And ugly.
The fact that people pay for this is even more mind shattering.
Just enabling the gambler to continue wasting his life and our time.