TheGame wrote:The players are being unwise in the taking a knee stance. While I am fully aware that it has nothing to do with the military or even the flag, in deciding to protest in this manner, the players have given their opponents a ready-made excuse for opposition. Pence and others can avoid the issue of police brutality entirely and make it all about, you are disrespecting the flag and our troops. Now I know that is BS. If the players said they were kneeling to protest the way our soldiers don't have proper medical treatment, no one would claim they are disrespecting the flag. The bottomline is that the right does not believe in or care about police brutality and they want no part of seeing black players protesting about it. However, in choosing to kneel during the anthem, the players are giving them cover so they can say, "oh it is not that we are against black people protesting because we don't give a sh-t about them, it is because they are disrespecting the flag and our military." The players need to stop and separate their protests from anything dealing with the anthem. It is just a bad optic and the right are licking their chops at the opportunity to make this an issue next year. As Brannon said, the right wants to make all the elections about race because they feel white people in general will side with republicans is the elections are about picking sides on the racial divide. This is why Trump called out the players at that rally, this is why Rush and others are hyping the issue, and this way the right will not let it go. We have to outthink these guys and not let our outrage control our actions.

The NBA players (at least some of them) saw what Trump was doing, and they are not falling for the trap. (Plus, the NBA rules bar protest during the anthem).

For me it's quite the opposite. The fact that so much attention is being brought about the topic, whether to obscure the point our not (flag, anthem, etc.), this is the first step.

martin wrote:

TheGame wrote:The players are being unwise in the taking a knee stance. While I am fully aware that it has nothing to do with the military or even the flag, in deciding to protest in this manner, the players have given their opponents a ready-made excuse for opposition. Pence and others can avoid the issue of police brutality entirely and make it all about, you are disrespecting the flag and our troops. Now I know that is BS. If the players said they were kneeling to protest the way our soldiers don't have proper medical treatment, no one would claim they are disrespecting the flag. The bottomline is that the right does not believe in or care about police brutality and they want no part of seeing black players protesting about it. However, in choosing to kneel during the anthem, the players are giving them cover so they can say, "oh it is not that we are against black people protesting because we don't give a sh-t about them, it is because they are disrespecting the flag and our military." The players need to stop and separate their protests from anything dealing with the anthem. It is just a bad optic and the right are licking their chops at the opportunity to make this an issue next year. As Brannon said, the right wants to make all the elections about race because they feel white people in general will side with republicans is the elections are about picking sides on the racial divide. This is why Trump called out the players at that rally, this is why Rush and others are hyping the issue, and this way the right will not let it go. We have to outthink these guys and not let our outrage control our actions.

The NBA players (at least some of them) saw what Trump was doing, and they are not falling for the trap. (Plus, the NBA rules bar protest during the anthem).

For me it's quite the opposite. The fact that so much attention is being brought about the topic, whether to obscure the point our not (flag, anthem, etc.), this is the first step.

Agree. IMO - no matter what you do and how you protest this a bunch of high and moral sounding vacuous douchebags will find a way to politicize it and try to deflect attention from the forefront issue. And they'll find a lot of support. Bringing the issue to the core and silently protesting it in the most visible place is a very good strategy.

TPercy wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

TPercy, here is an article that has done the research for you.

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22008392_10214705041962963_7501126303057149593_n.jpg?oh=f12077eb886b0023f7a0daf1f23d63e0&oe=5A7CF59E

http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2016/07/11/america-police-shooting-timeline

http://www.theroot.com/in-case-you-forgot-cops-are-still-killing-black-people-1793597703

The zero accountability stat is worrying to me. It suggests that everytime those officers stood trial, the jury of their peers/ judge got it wrong 99% of the time. The justice system has serious issues...but not issues like that. As for the cops not charged with a crime, it asusmes that when an officer shot someone armed or not, they were already in the wrong.

Also that picture of the people of the people who recieved no conviction is faulty. There was so much context behind all of them and the only one where a blatant miscarrage of justice was found I believe was Castile and the really old lady, and Rekia Boyd(thank the idiot prosecutor for that)

Mike Brown getting choked to death was fair play?
Tamir Rice getting shot to death while playing with a toy gun in he park was fair play?
Freddie passing away in a coma with a fractured spine was fair play?
Trayvon Martin losing his life was fair play?

The events with unarmed men shouldn't have resulted in the loss of their lives.

The exposure forcing even the bump in awareness publicly and even an attempt at accountability is also even new. In the past we would only take the officers word for it. Only due to technology allowing the public to even witness some of these events have allowed any of these cases to even gain traction.

Now why should there be blind credibility? Other then having no choice, why should we blindly believe that the right thing is being done on a regular basis regarding these issues? Based on history what should we pull from to offer blind faith and instant credibility?

arkrud wrote:

TPercy wrote:

arkrud wrote:

TPercy wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

TPercy, here is an article that has done the research for you.

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22008392_10214705041962963_7501126303057149593_n.jpg?oh=f12077eb886b0023f7a0daf1f23d63e0&oe=5A7CF59E

http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2016/07/11/america-police-shooting-timeline

http://www.theroot.com/in-case-you-forgot-cops-are-still-killing-black-people-1793597703

The zero accountability stat is worrying to me. It suggests that everytime those officers stood trial, the jury of their peers/ judge got it wrong 99% of the time. The justice system has serious issues...but not issues like that. As for the cops not charged with a crime, it asusmes that when an officer shot someone armed or not, they were already in the wrong.

Also that picture of the people of the people who recieved no conviction is faulty. There was so much context behind all of them and the only one where a blatant miscarrage of justice was found I believe was Castile and the really old lady, and Rekia Boyd(thank the idiot prosecutor for that)

I am outsider so sorry to interfere in very insightful and respectful debate.
There are always 2 sides of the issue - the factual practical and emotional.
Obviously from factual practical point of view US as a whole and all US population cannot be labeled as racist but from emotional point of view they surely can.
So when athletes protest the anthem some of them truly emotionally believe that if the issues with police profiling, disproportional killing of unarmed AA man, and other cases of racism exist all American people are responsible as supporters of American law and executive power as it is.
So anthem as representation of American way of live is logical target to condemn all American people for supporting racism by supporting America.
Every human needs emotional way out to not get depressed, suicidal, and violent.
So I think all people who understand the situation and emotional impact of it should let it go and allow this protest to take place and be in peace with it.
If nobody will show any outrage about it any more the protest itself will lose emotional attraction and will naturally stop happening.

We should never make protest of of something purely emotional. Facts don't care about your feelings. Emotion is only going to stir up more up more emotion.

Protest is emotional thing. It can be based on facts but still will be very emotional.
When people are communicating based on facts its called dialog or debate.
When civilized dialog or debate is not possible the protest is the only way.
This what athletes who protest think and many people who support them too.
Even if this is true is it a time to stop postering and start civilized dialog and debate?
Otherwise what is this all for?

I agree!!! The fault in your thinking is that you assume BOTH sides have an interest in DIALOGUE . The reason for protest is cuz the deaths keep happening and not enough is being done. The AA Community has been begging for change for years.

Trump and AG Sessions came in with LAW and ORDER rather than dialogue and understanding. The fact is AG Sessions pulled back from the Obama/AG Holder and Lynch Best Practices Prescriptions!

nixluva wrote:

TPercy wrote:at @nix and arkurd. I'm not saying I disagree with with protest. I am all for it, but I just didn't disagree with the method of protest. Of course protest is going to be emotional but it has to be based on the fact of what has happened and not what feel happened.

Bruh I think you're trying WAY too hard to rationalize this issue. Just acknowledge that it's UNJUST and clearly a VERY REAL PROBLEM! You wanna nitpick and go case by case as if this is just some marginal problem. It's not and it never has been.

AA's and treatment from Law Enforcement has always been a problem. There weren't any Good Ole Days when things were fair and just. Stop trying to make it seem like we ever reached a point where this wasn't worthy of concern.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/professorpash/status/917117087629357062

TPercy wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

TPercy wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

TPercy, here is an article that has done the research for you.

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22008392_10214705041962963_7501126303057149593_n.jpg?oh=f12077eb886b0023f7a0daf1f23d63e0&oe=5A7CF59E

http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2016/07/11/america-police-shooting-timeline

http://www.theroot.com/in-case-you-forgot-cops-are-still-killing-black-people-1793597703

The zero accountability stat is worrying to me. It suggests that everytime those officers stood trial, the jury of their peers/ judge got it wrong 99% of the time. The justice system has serious issues...but not issues like that. As for the cops not charged with a crime, it asusmes that when an officer shot someone armed or not, they were already in the wrong.

Also that picture of the people of the people who recieved no conviction is faulty. There was so much context behind all of them and the only one where a blatant miscarrage of justice was found I believe was Castile and the really old lady, and Rekia Boyd(thank the idiot prosecutor for that)

Mike Brown getting choked to death was fair play?
Tamir Rice getting shot to death while playing with a toy gun in he park was fair play?
Freddie passing away in a coma with a fractured spine was fair play?
Trayvon Martin losing his life was fair play?

The events with unarmed men shouldn't have resulted in the loss of their lives.

The exposure forcing even the bump in awareness publicly and even an attempt at accountability is also even new. In the past we would only take the officers word for it. Only due to technology allowing the public to even witness some of these events have allowed any of these cases to even gain traction.

Now why should there be blind credibility? Other then having no choice, why should we blindly believe that the right thing is being done on a regular basis regarding these issues? Based on history what should we pull from to offer blind faith and instant credibility?

Mike Brown was shot to death after attacking 1 cop and charging at another. Even Eric Holder said it would have been absurd to prosecute.

Tamir Rice wasn't the officers fault, it was the whoever put in that call and I hope he gets ****ed because of it.

Looking back I think Freddie Gray deserved better justice. I looked at the judges words in his ruling and he said that failing to put on a seatbelt for those in custody isn't a crime especially since the rule had been put in days before. I disagree with this, if you violate conduct with or without intent you put the lives of those in custody at risk and thus you should face punishment for it. However, the judge wasn't the only one at fault. The prosecutors in that case made a mockery of themselves. Nevertheless, Freddie Grays family got a 6.4 million settlement.

Trayvon Martin got into a really physicall altercation with Zimmerman. Zimmer is a piece of **** but when you have two black eyes, a fractured nose, a multiple lacerations at the back of your head...what the hell are you supposed to do? Looking back, charges probably weren't necessary in the first place.

Eric Gradner not Brown my bad. The choke hold applied wasnt legal. Reguardless if it was, if you are choking someone there is always a time limit until they run out of air and die. There was no need to arrest and brimg him to the station in the first place.

With Rice after it was relayed that there was a mad man pointing a gun at everyone. It was also relayed that it may be a toy gun and it may be a juvenile. They claimed they never received the latter information which is crazy by itself. But if they are reaponding to a mad man pointing a gun at everyone. Why are they putting themselves in direct shooting range of the dude with a gun? They also claimed that they yelled reoeadly for him to drop the gun. Yet were not able to identify that he was a 12 yr old boy before they let of their guns after feeling threatend after putting themselves in a position to be threatens.

The officer who let off the shots also failed the aptitude test to become an officer and Cleveland department didn't do a background check on him.

Zimmerman was told not to follow Trayvon by the dispatcher. He didnt comply to the officers commands. He initiated the confrontation afyer failing to comply. Then when the officers reach the scene they decide to drug test Trayvon looking for any type of angle to justify his death.

This doesnt even touch on the lying on police reports until video evidence and witnesses testify other words. Or on how a lot of these officers seem to have a lot of past claims of brutality on thier profile.

As for the kneeling. The video visuals seem to have been the last straw. African Americans could have been kneeling for years for the issues in the 70s 80s 90s. Not just from police violence but racial issues in general. Mass incarceration, school funding, uneven wages, predatory lending etc...

newyorknewyork wrote:

TPercy wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

TPercy wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

TPercy, here is an article that has done the research for you.

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22008392_10214705041962963_7501126303057149593_n.jpg?oh=f12077eb886b0023f7a0daf1f23d63e0&oe=5A7CF59E

http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2016/07/11/america-police-shooting-timeline

http://www.theroot.com/in-case-you-forgot-cops-are-still-killing-black-people-1793597703

The zero accountability stat is worrying to me. It suggests that everytime those officers stood trial, the jury of their peers/ judge got it wrong 99% of the time. The justice system has serious issues...but not issues like that. As for the cops not charged with a crime, it asusmes that when an officer shot someone armed or not, they were already in the wrong.

Also that picture of the people of the people who recieved no conviction is faulty. There was so much context behind all of them and the only one where a blatant miscarrage of justice was found I believe was Castile and the really old lady, and Rekia Boyd(thank the idiot prosecutor for that)

Mike Brown getting choked to death was fair play?
Tamir Rice getting shot to death while playing with a toy gun in he park was fair play?
Freddie passing away in a coma with a fractured spine was fair play?
Trayvon Martin losing his life was fair play?

The events with unarmed men shouldn't have resulted in the loss of their lives.

The exposure forcing even the bump in awareness publicly and even an attempt at accountability is also even new. In the past we would only take the officers word for it. Only due to technology allowing the public to even witness some of these events have allowed any of these cases to even gain traction.

Now why should there be blind credibility? Other then having no choice, why should we blindly believe that the right thing is being done on a regular basis regarding these issues? Based on history what should we pull from to offer blind faith and instant credibility?

Mike Brown was shot to death after attacking 1 cop and charging at another. Even Eric Holder said it would have been absurd to prosecute.

Tamir Rice wasn't the officers fault, it was the whoever put in that call and I hope he gets ****ed because of it.

Looking back I think Freddie Gray deserved better justice. I looked at the judges words in his ruling and he said that failing to put on a seatbelt for those in custody isn't a crime especially since the rule had been put in days before. I disagree with this, if you violate conduct with or without intent you put the lives of those in custody at risk and thus you should face punishment for it. However, the judge wasn't the only one at fault. The prosecutors in that case made a mockery of themselves. Nevertheless, Freddie Grays family got a 6.4 million settlement.

Trayvon Martin got into a really physicall altercation with Zimmerman. Zimmer is a piece of **** but when you have two black eyes, a fractured nose, a multiple lacerations at the back of your head...what the hell are you supposed to do? Looking back, charges probably weren't necessary in the first place.

Eric Gradner not Brown my bad. The choke hold applied wasnt legal. Reguardless if it was, if you are choking someone there is always a time limit until they run out of air and die. There was no need to arrest and brimg him to the station in the first place.

With Rice after it was relayed that there was a mad man pointing a gun at everyone. It was also relayed that it may be a toy gun and it may be a juvenile. They claimed they never received the latter information which is crazy by itself. But if they are reaponding to a mad man pointing a gun at everyone. Why are they putting themselves in direct shooting range of the dude with a gun? They also claimed that they yelled reoeadly for him to drop the gun. Yet were not able to identify that he was a 12 yr old boy before they let of their guns after feeling threatend after putting themselves in a position to be threatens.

The officer who let off the shots also failed the aptitude test to become an officer and Cleveland department didn't do a background check on him.

Zimmerman was told not to follow Trayvon by the dispatcher. He didnt comply to the officers commands. He initiated the confrontation afyer failing to comply. Then when the officers reach the scene they decide to drug test Trayvon looking for any type of angle to justify his death.

This doesnt even touch on the lying on police reports until video evidence and witnesses testify other words. Or on how a lot of these officers seem to have a lot of past claims of brutality on thier profile.

As for the kneeling. The video visuals seem to have been the last straw. African Americans could have been kneeling for years for the issues in the 70s 80s 90s. Not just from police violence but racial issues in general. Mass incarceration, school funding, uneven wages, predatory lending etc...

Tamir Rice again while I can't speak to the police protocol especially given that the guy wasn't qualified for the job to begin with, the cop couldn't be arrested especially if the shooting made sense.

You stated that Zimmerman initiated confrontation with Martin even though his lawyers said otherwise. Its his word against Zimmermans and given that his injuries were consistent to what Zimmerman described, I wouldn't be surprised if they were inclined to believe Zimmerman.

nykshaknbake wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TPercy wrote:at @nix and arkurd. I'm not saying I disagree with with protest. I am all for it, but I just didn't disagree with the method of protest. Of course protest is going to be emotional but it has to be based on the fact of what has happened and not what feel happened.

Bruh I think you're trying WAY too hard to rationalize this issue. Just acknowledge that it's UNJUST and clearly a VERY REAL PROBLEM! You wanna nitpick and go case by case as if this is just some marginal problem. It's not and it never has been.

AA's and treatment from Law Enforcement has always been a problem. There weren't any Good Ole Days when things were fair and just. Stop trying to make it seem like we ever reached a point where this wasn't worthy of concern.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/professorpash/status/917117087629357062

Don't really want to delve deeply here but comparing slaves and black people under segregation laws to NFL athletes is really insulting to the the former.

Perhaps you're not grasping that AA's are the descendants of those Slaves and Civil Rights Protesters and the fact that we still have people trying to tell us HOW to protest rather than address the REASONS for the protest should be a national embarrassment.

Tell me how long are we supposed to keep repeating this horrible dance? Haven't AA's made the case that these protests are legitimate or do we just keep pretending everything is just fine. I for one am tired of this BS! Next time I talk to my 95 year old Grandmother or my 70 year old mom I can tell them no worries everything is going to be fine. No more need to protest cuz we've reached the promised land.

TPercy wrote:

arkrud wrote:

TPercy wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

TPercy wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

TPercy wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

TPercy, here is an article that has done the research for you.

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22008392_10214705041962963_7501126303057149593_n.jpg?oh=f12077eb886b0023f7a0daf1f23d63e0&oe=5A7CF59E

http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2016/07/11/america-police-shooting-timeline

http://www.theroot.com/in-case-you-forgot-cops-are-still-killing-black-people-1793597703

The zero accountability stat is worrying to me. It suggests that everytime those officers stood trial, the jury of their peers/ judge got it wrong 99% of the time. The justice system has serious issues...but not issues like that. As for the cops not charged with a crime, it asusmes that when an officer shot someone armed or not, they were already in the wrong.

Also that picture of the people of the people who recieved no conviction is faulty. There was so much context behind all of them and the only one where a blatant miscarrage of justice was found I believe was Castile and the really old lady, and Rekia Boyd(thank the idiot prosecutor for that)

Mike Brown getting choked to death was fair play?
Tamir Rice getting shot to death while playing with a toy gun in he park was fair play?
Freddie passing away in a coma with a fractured spine was fair play?
Trayvon Martin losing his life was fair play?

The events with unarmed men shouldn't have resulted in the loss of their lives.

The exposure forcing even the bump in awareness publicly and even an attempt at accountability is also even new. In the past we would only take the officers word for it. Only due to technology allowing the public to even witness some of these events have allowed any of these cases to even gain traction.

Now why should there be blind credibility? Other then having no choice, why should we blindly believe that the right thing is being done on a regular basis regarding these issues? Based on history what should we pull from to offer blind faith and instant credibility?

Mike Brown was shot to death after attacking 1 cop and charging at another. Even Eric Holder said it would have been absurd to prosecute.

Tamir Rice wasn't the officers fault, it was the whoever put in that call and I hope he gets ****ed because of it.

Looking back I think Freddie Gray deserved better justice. I looked at the judges words in his ruling and he said that failing to put on a seatbelt for those in custody isn't a crime especially since the rule had been put in days before. I disagree with this, if you violate conduct with or without intent you put the lives of those in custody at risk and thus you should face punishment for it. However, the judge wasn't the only one at fault. The prosecutors in that case made a mockery of themselves. Nevertheless, Freddie Grays family got a 6.4 million settlement.

Trayvon Martin got into a really physicall altercation with Zimmerman. Zimmer is a piece of **** but when you have two black eyes, a fractured nose, a multiple lacerations at the back of your head...what the hell are you supposed to do? Looking back, charges probably weren't necessary in the first place.

Eric Gradner not Brown my bad. The choke hold applied wasnt legal. Reguardless if it was, if you are choking someone there is always a time limit until they run out of air and die. There was no need to arrest and brimg him to the station in the first place.

With Rice after it was relayed that there was a mad man pointing a gun at everyone. It was also relayed that it may be a toy gun and it may be a juvenile. They claimed they never received the latter information which is crazy by itself. But if they are reaponding to a mad man pointing a gun at everyone. Why are they putting themselves in direct shooting range of the dude with a gun? They also claimed that they yelled reoeadly for him to drop the gun. Yet were not able to identify that he was a 12 yr old boy before they let of their guns after feeling threatend after putting themselves in a position to be threatens.

The officer who let off the shots also failed the aptitude test to become an officer and Cleveland department didn't do a background check on him.

Zimmerman was told not to follow Trayvon by the dispatcher. He didnt comply to the officers commands. He initiated the confrontation afyer failing to comply. Then when the officers reach the scene they decide to drug test Trayvon looking for any type of angle to justify his death.

This doesnt even touch on the lying on police reports until video evidence and witnesses testify other words. Or on how a lot of these officers seem to have a lot of past claims of brutality on thier profile.

As for the kneeling. The video visuals seem to have been the last straw. African Americans could have been kneeling for years for the issues in the 70s 80s 90s. Not just from police violence but racial issues in general. Mass incarceration, school funding, uneven wages, predatory lending etc...

I'll give you Eric Garner. I think the grand jury messed up on that one.

Tamir Rice again while I can't speak to the police protocol especially given that the guy wasn't qualified for the job to begin with, the cop couldn't be arrested especially if the shooting made sense.

You stated that Zimmerman initiated confrontation with Martin even though his lawyers said otherwise. Its his word against Zimmermans and given that his injuries were consistent to what Zimmerman described, I wouldn't be surprised if they were inclined to believe Zimmerman.

Nobody cares about factual part. It is all about emotions and impressions.
The reality shows are stepping down from TV screens into the real life.
And you still try to find some rime of reason.
This script is writing itself without the screenwriter.
And The show must go on.

Yep. Facts matter.

What FACTS are you talking about in particular? I'm still getting a vibe that there's some doubt about the necessity and validity of the issues behind the protests.