Welpee wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:What's wrong with keeping Melo as a 28 minute 6th man?

How long are you and 1248 going to keep pretending you don't grasp the premise that 25 wins is better than 35 wins?

You think Melo adds 10 wins? Virtually every lineup was worse with him last year. He helped the tanking.

I agree that he made us worse. BUT he also helped KP become a jerk in front of our own eyes with his "leadership". I would take 10 extra wins to remove him from the locker room. We trade him or we buy him out, this notion of asking him to play hard on both sides of the ball is just ridiculous at this point. We have been there done that for six years. As did Karl in Denver before us

I didn't say ask him to play hard. We have to demand it. We have never made his playing time dependent on how he plays. He could screw around, nap when he wanted to, and still get 33 minutes before.

It just doesnt work. I dont want to be insulting but this is just not viable. This is completely ignoring the human, social, and status elements of this equation. Three things that are key in successful team building. Melo is not a rat on a wheel that only gets cheese if he runs really hard. This notion of making Melo play hard by reducing his role or threatening to has no basis in reality and really reflects the ignorance of anyone suggesting it. Briggs you really make yourself look foolish everything you suggest it. How does this play out in your mind? Melo just gets less minutes and waives his towel rooting for Kuz instead from the bench? You think this creates a good team culture? Please just wake up people. Maybe this works with 8 year olds playing soccer. Not so much with million dollar athletes.

+1000

explain how your starting kuz or lance ahead of an all star..it's the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet

Or Timmy at SF. What if the team consistently plays better with that lineup than with Melo? You want the team to lose just because it's important that a guy whose made all-star appearances gets his playing time? Are you a Melo fan or a Knicks fan? Again, the hope is that it never reaches that point.

We have won like 2% of our games without melo, in fact we have the worse record in the NBA for the last 3 yrs without melo.

THJ does not pass the ball more than melo, does not draw double teams, and is a below avg defender
KUZ is arguable the worse defender on the team, and super inconsistent offensively
Lance cant score, and is inconsistent on defense.

If a team is build around player A and you remove player A you would expect them to struggle. If Melo is gone and the team is structured differently and depended upon different players, maybe the results are different? Can't say that I have confidence we would be better but it's a possibility.

Knickoftime wrote:

TLover wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

TLover wrote:Yes I am asking Houston to trade Anderson, Gordan, Ariza & Capela for Melo & Noah...

Why bc they want really Melo bad to go with Harden & Paul. Also they signed PJ Tucker & Tarrick Black to make up for losing those players. Noah & Nene will play center for them. Heck I'll throw them O'quinn for some of their non-guaranteed contracts.

That's the deal or we keep Melo, which I'm fine with.
These are professionals, they'll deal with hurt feelings.

Management needs to take a stand and not be humiliated like the past regime.

Not a matter of hurt feelings.

You aren't proposing a trade, you're proposing a non-trade. That's the same as not proposing anything at all.

Same as saying "Melo for Irving straight up". That isn't a proposal, it's rhetoric.

How is that rhetoric?? Why should we do the Rockets any favors. We are trading the best player in the deal for scraps. I'd rather keep the talent and let our coach utilize his talents. If the coach can't do that then get a new freak'n coach.

It's almost like we're obligated to trade Melo to the Rockets. PHil Jackson is no longer here. If the new regime wants to keep Melo instead of trading him for garbage, so be it.

It's like oh no we're messing up Houston's plan to be a great team.. screw them. Also remember they beat us in the finals in 1994.. not letting them win again.

You misunderstand. The Knicks should not trade Melo for Anderson. They should not do the Rockets ANY favors. They are no obligated to do anything.

That's a stupid proposal.

Got it?

But all you're doing is countering that stupid proposal that has no chance of happening with your own stupid proposal that has no chance of happening. That is just two rounds of stupid.

Again, it's rhetoric ... rhetoric about how you hate the Rockets and won't do them any favors and screw them.

You are obviously someone who gets off critiquing other people's ideas.. anyway no need to go back & forth with you...

For other people who would like to hear out my opinion (whether you or agree or not) but the bottom line is Melo is still a star player and you combine his talent with 2 other star/superstar players Melo's value actually goes up. That's my point, the Rockets are clearly a better team with Melo even if they give up those other pieces,

If they want to keep Capela then I ask for 2 unprotected first rounders to go along with Ariza, Gordan, & Anderson. The Rockets have to take Noah if we're taking back Anderson & Gordan's contracts.

If not, I'm welcoming back Melo with open arms & play him at the 4 & KP at the 5 where they belong.. which happens to work with a hornacek style offense. Just a much better version of Markieff Morris & Channing Frye.

Nothing "stupid" about that or demanding ultimate value for a player that Houston needs more than the Knicks.

Got it?

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Im looking for positive developments and Im trying to win. I dont believe you ever try to tank from game 1.

There is nothing there with Houston. Its not the Knicka fault that melo wont expand his trade destinations.

Id go like this to keep everyone fresh and injury free--play 10

C-Oquinn 25-28
F KP--25 -28
G Timmy Hardaway 25-28
G Frank Nitklina 18-24
G C Lee 26-28 min
6th man Carmelo-25-28 minutes
7th man Willy G 25-28 minutes
G Baker 12-18
G Dotson 12-18
G Sessions 12-18

Kuz
Thomas
Randle
Noah

So to be clear Briggs - despite your constant, wholesale criticisms of the entire Knicks organization, despite win totals of 37, 17, 31 and 32 wins the last 4 seasons, you're in fact optimistic Hornachek can lead THIS roster to the postseason in 2017-18?

It's a yes or no question.

There has to be explanation--its not yes or no. I want to play positively whether we win or lose. I want Baker Dotson and Frank in the top 10. Using Carmelo as a 6th man in unit 2 should allow the younger players to space out and do their thing with more ease. I want positive developments and I think keeping Melo and using his skills as a conduit to allowing our younger players to have an easier avenue to develop is smart. Its not a W-L question.

Sure it is. The question of whether the long and/or short-term benefits of your proposed plan outweigh the alternatives is always THE central focus of any roster building strategy.

I suspect you know the answer to the question I'm asking is going to be tough to reconcile so you're avoiding it.

You make predictions about players and rosters all the time. You aren't adverse to it at all. You have predicted Josh Jackson will be a superstar player. I remember clear as day this time a year ago you admiring the Pacers offseason moves and predicting they'd be a "monster in the 2016-17 season.

The first step in assessing the cost/benefits of your strategy is projecting its results, short and long term.

So for sake of argument, Knicks retain Melo and make him a 6th man, as you suggest and they distribute mins as you suggest, what is the projected W-L of that team and/or are they a postseason team, yes or no?

As I say, you make predictions all the time, this should be no different.

Yes I thought the Pacers would be much better than they were

I think the bottom line for me-- and I think you're in my camp-- there is no melo trade.

So if we say there is no Melo trade-- do you give Melo 50mm to walk away-- you can't -- makes no sense.

So can Melo be a mature productive player on a team that is developing -- of course and if he gives problems it's called insubordination. I think Melo will be fine in a slightly reduced role

Agreed, no Melo trade. let's put that to bed.

Assuming he's returns as a mature productive player in the role you suggested and is fine in a slightly reduced role, is the 2017-18 Knicks a postseason team?

Yes or no?

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:What's wrong with keeping Melo as a 28 minute 6th man?

How long are you and 1248 going to keep pretending you don't grasp the premise that 25 wins is better than 35 wins?

You think Melo adds 10 wins? Virtually every lineup was worse with him last year. He helped the tanking.

I agree that he made us worse. BUT he also helped KP become a jerk in front of our own eyes with his "leadership". I would take 10 extra wins to remove him from the locker room. We trade him or we buy him out, this notion of asking him to play hard on both sides of the ball is just ridiculous at this point. We have been there done that for six years. As did Karl in Denver before us

I didn't say ask him to play hard. We have to demand it. We have never made his playing time dependent on how he plays. He could screw around, nap when he wanted to, and still get 33 minutes before.

It just doesnt work. I dont want to be insulting but this is just not viable. This is completely ignoring the human, social, and status elements of this equation. Three things that are key in successful team building. Melo is not a rat on a wheel that only gets cheese if he runs really hard. This notion of making Melo play hard by reducing his role or threatening to has no basis in reality and really reflects the ignorance of anyone suggesting it. Briggs you really make yourself look foolish everything you suggest it. How does this play out in your mind? Melo just gets less minutes and waives his towel rooting for Kuz instead from the bench? You think this creates a good team culture? Please just wake up people. Maybe this works with 8 year olds playing soccer. Not so much with million dollar athletes.

No, that's not at all how you approach the situation. Admittedly, now that they've tried so hard to trade him, it would be hard to make this work. But what they needed to do earlier was talk to him about how great a player he is and how great a passer he is. He can be a gifted passer and defender and the team needs more of it. Explain (actually going through the shot charts) why those off-balance mid-range shots don't help the team as much as a great pass from him does. They need to look at the shot charts, look at the data by shot type, and discuss the things he does great as well as the things they want him to reduce. The tone of the meetings has to be - you're a gifted player but we want to use your gifts in a new way. You start that way, and if it doesn't work, eventually things have to start to become more punitive. Then you did everything you can to get him to play the right way, and there's a reasonable rationale for becoming punitive with playing time if it doesn't work out.

If he is back on the team, there is no good option. Maybe Jeff can say that he had nothing to do with the trade rumors and can still talk to him about using his gifts differently. I don't know. There are no good options if he's back. The only other option is to just let him jack up bad shots and take naps on defense. Some people think having him come off the bench for 28 mpg solves the issues. It doesn't. He'll just jack up bad shots and sleep on defense for 28 instead of 33 minutes.

And did you call me, Briggs?! You said Briggs makes himself look foolish with all the things he suggests. LOL. If you did mean me and not Briggs, the issue was just that you made a ton of incorrect assumptions about how I would go about doing this.

I meant Briggs... he suggests this often. I replied to your comment regarding Melo has never had to earn his minutes. Suggesting that as a viable or realistic option is beyond silly. The bold is the reality only now he's pissed about having his minutes reduced in favor of inferior players.

Every option involving him coming back is silly. What's your plan if he's back here?
My approach was as a last resort, reducing his minutes in favor of player's with a superior approach to the game. That's only once it reaches a point where you've tried everything else and are almost ready to give up on Melo. At that point, you're trying to make sure his negative influence doesn't spread (but still giving him one last shot). The team was almost -300 with him on the court and was close to even with him off it last year. We can't just do nothing and allow that to happen again. What would you do if he's back on the roster?

Easy answer… play it straight. I think Scott Perry is capable of doing this, which would be a first for Knick management.

Melo is human. Treat him as such. Start with simply addressing the situation for what it is. Melo had issues with the prior team president and there was back and forth. Simply be honest. Say we do not agree with how any of the issue were dealt with, and a player of Melo’s stature in the league deserves better than the things that were said and done. So there is the first part.. apologize for Phil being a tool and blasting Melo publicly.

Tell Melo there is zero interest in making an example of him or pushing some agenda. Melo is an excellent basketball player and we value his skill set. There was a time we had hoped to surround you (Melo) with similar caliber talent, but we (Knick management) failed to do that. Many of us here never stopped valuing what you bring to this franchise.

There is no need to spell out expectations for Melo. He’s a pro, the expectation is he shows up in shape and plays his role on the team. Where he plays is up to the coach. I suspect Jeff would not be set in where Melo plays. Noah will miss the first month, Willy is still raw defensively so I suspect the first question would be is KOQ the opening day starting center with Melo at the 3 or is KP center with Melo at 4?

This puts everything on Melo. It’s not that the Knicks don’t want him, its simply they acknowledge their failure to build a winning roster around Melo’s talents, so they are taking steps backward to build for the future. If Melo wants to move on as that doesn’t suit him, he has the same options the Knicks have if they want to move on. Really none. Melo is under contract with the Knicks. He’s gotta show up and play. He can opt out at the end of the year if he wants to leave.

If I am Knick management and Melo tells me he wants to be traded to the Rockets that’s fine also. However the Knicks are under no obligation to do so, and as Knick management I would be more than comfortable sitting down with him and explaining I am more than happy to work with his agent to facilitate a trade, but I don’t do so at the expense of the Knicks.

Go from there. Transparency takes all the pressure away from the Knicks and puts it on Melo. Players appreciate knowing where they stand up front.

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Im looking for positive developments and Im trying to win. I dont believe you ever try to tank from game 1.

There is nothing there with Houston. Its not the Knicka fault that melo wont expand his trade destinations.

Id go like this to keep everyone fresh and injury free--play 10

C-Oquinn 25-28
F KP--25 -28
G Timmy Hardaway 25-28
G Frank Nitklina 18-24
G C Lee 26-28 min
6th man Carmelo-25-28 minutes
7th man Willy G 25-28 minutes
G Baker 12-18
G Dotson 12-18
G Sessions 12-18

Kuz
Thomas
Randle
Noah

So to be clear Briggs - despite your constant, wholesale criticisms of the entire Knicks organization, despite win totals of 37, 17, 31 and 32 wins the last 4 seasons, you're in fact optimistic Hornachek can lead THIS roster to the postseason in 2017-18?

It's a yes or no question.

There has to be explanation--its not yes or no. I want to play positively whether we win or lose. I want Baker Dotson and Frank in the top 10. Using Carmelo as a 6th man in unit 2 should allow the younger players to space out and do their thing with more ease. I want positive developments and I think keeping Melo and using his skills as a conduit to allowing our younger players to have an easier avenue to develop is smart. Its not a W-L question.

Sure it is. The question of whether the long and/or short-term benefits of your proposed plan outweigh the alternatives is always THE central focus of any roster building strategy.

I suspect you know the answer to the question I'm asking is going to be tough to reconcile so you're avoiding it.

You make predictions about players and rosters all the time. You aren't adverse to it at all. You have predicted Josh Jackson will be a superstar player. I remember clear as day this time a year ago you admiring the Pacers offseason moves and predicting they'd be a "monster in the 2016-17 season.

The first step in assessing the cost/benefits of your strategy is projecting its results, short and long term.

So for sake of argument, Knicks retain Melo and make him a 6th man, as you suggest and they distribute mins as you suggest, what is the projected W-L of that team and/or are they a postseason team, yes or no?

As I say, you make predictions all the time, this should be no different.

Yes I thought the Pacers would be much better than they were

I think the bottom line for me-- and I think you're in my camp-- there is no melo trade.

So if we say there is no Melo trade-- do you give Melo 50mm to walk away-- you can't -- makes no sense.

So can Melo be a mature productive player on a team that is developing -- of course and if he gives problems it's called insubordination. I think Melo will be fine in a slightly reduced role

Agreed, no Melo trade. let's put that to bed.

Assuming he's returns as a mature productive player in the role you suggested and is fine in a slightly reduced role, is the 2017-18 Knicks a postseason team?

Yes or no?

Possible--youve watched the last 4 years?

Yes.

Curious. You wrote a couple weeks ago they stunk and were a 25 win team tops Melo or not.

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:What's wrong with keeping Melo as a 28 minute 6th man?

How long are you and 1248 going to keep pretending you don't grasp the premise that 25 wins is better than 35 wins?

You think Melo adds 10 wins? Virtually every lineup was worse with him last year. He helped the tanking.

I agree that he made us worse. BUT he also helped KP become a jerk in front of our own eyes with his "leadership". I would take 10 extra wins to remove him from the locker room. We trade him or we buy him out, this notion of asking him to play hard on both sides of the ball is just ridiculous at this point. We have been there done that for six years. As did Karl in Denver before us

I didn't say ask him to play hard. We have to demand it. We have never made his playing time dependent on how he plays. He could screw around, nap when he wanted to, and still get 33 minutes before.

It just doesnt work. I dont want to be insulting but this is just not viable. This is completely ignoring the human, social, and status elements of this equation. Three things that are key in successful team building. Melo is not a rat on a wheel that only gets cheese if he runs really hard. This notion of making Melo play hard by reducing his role or threatening to has no basis in reality and really reflects the ignorance of anyone suggesting it. Briggs you really make yourself look foolish everything you suggest it. How does this play out in your mind? Melo just gets less minutes and waives his towel rooting for Kuz instead from the bench? You think this creates a good team culture? Please just wake up people. Maybe this works with 8 year olds playing soccer. Not so much with million dollar athletes.

No, that's not at all how you approach the situation. Admittedly, now that they've tried so hard to trade him, it would be hard to make this work. But what they needed to do earlier was talk to him about how great a player he is and how great a passer he is. He can be a gifted passer and defender and the team needs more of it. Explain (actually going through the shot charts) why those off-balance mid-range shots don't help the team as much as a great pass from him does. They need to look at the shot charts, look at the data by shot type, and discuss the things he does great as well as the things they want him to reduce. The tone of the meetings has to be - you're a gifted player but we want to use your gifts in a new way. You start that way, and if it doesn't work, eventually things have to start to become more punitive. Then you did everything you can to get him to play the right way, and there's a reasonable rationale for becoming punitive with playing time if it doesn't work out.

If he is back on the team, there is no good option. Maybe Jeff can say that he had nothing to do with the trade rumors and can still talk to him about using his gifts differently. I don't know. There are no good options if he's back. The only other option is to just let him jack up bad shots and take naps on defense. Some people think having him come off the bench for 28 mpg solves the issues. It doesn't. He'll just jack up bad shots and sleep on defense for 28 instead of 33 minutes.

And did you call me, Briggs?! You said Briggs makes himself look foolish with all the things he suggests. LOL. If you did mean me and not Briggs, the issue was just that you made a ton of incorrect assumptions about how I would go about doing this.

I meant Briggs... he suggests this often. I replied to your comment regarding Melo has never had to earn his minutes. Suggesting that as a viable or realistic option is beyond silly. The bold is the reality only now he's pissed about having his minutes reduced in favor of inferior players.

Every option involving him coming back is silly. What's your plan if he's back here?
My approach was as a last resort, reducing his minutes in favor of player's with a superior approach to the game. That's only once it reaches a point where you've tried everything else and are almost ready to give up on Melo. At that point, you're trying to make sure his negative influence doesn't spread (but still giving him one last shot). The team was almost -300 with him on the court and was close to even with him off it last year. We can't just do nothing and allow that to happen again. What would you do if he's back on the roster?

Easy answer… play it straight. I think Scott Perry is capable of doing this, which would be a first for Knick management.

Melo is human. Treat him as such. Start with simply addressing the situation for what it is. Melo had issues with the prior team president and there was back and forth. Simply be honest. Say we do not agree with how any of the issue were dealt with, and a player of Melo’s stature in the league deserves better than the things that were said and done. So there is the first part.. apologize for Phil being a tool and blasting Melo publicly.

Tell Melo there is zero interest in making an example of him or pushing some agenda. Melo is an excellent basketball player and we value his skill set. There was a time we had hoped to surround you (Melo) with similar caliber talent, but we (Knick management) failed to do that. Many of us here never stopped valuing what you bring to this franchise.

There is no need to spell out expectations for Melo. He’s a pro, the expectation is he shows up in shape and plays his role on the team. Where he plays is up to the coach. I suspect Jeff would not be set in where Melo plays. Noah will miss the first month, Willy is still raw defensively so I suspect the first question would be is KOQ the opening day starting center with Melo at the 3 or is KP center with Melo at 4?

This puts everything on Melo. It’s not that the Knicks don’t want him, its simply they acknowledge their failure to build a winning roster around Melo’s talents, so they are taking steps backward to build for the future. If Melo wants to move on as that doesn’t suit him, he has the same options the Knicks have if they want to move on. Really none. Melo is under contract with the Knicks. He’s gotta show up and play. He can opt out at the end of the year if he wants to leave.

If I am Knick management and Melo tells me he wants to be traded to the Rockets that’s fine also. However the Knicks are under no obligation to do so, and as Knick management I would be more than comfortable sitting down with him and explaining I am more than happy to work with his agent to facilitate a trade, but I don’t do so at the expense of the Knicks.

Go from there. Transparency takes all the pressure away from the Knicks and puts it on Melo. Players appreciate knowing where they stand up front.

That's basically the same thing I said except you're not going to talk to him about anything he can improve on.

Jmpasq wrote:If Melo wants to win so badly he can opt out and sign for the mid level exception somewhere next season. Melo wants to win as long as its on the team that he wants and makes 27 million a year.

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:If Melo wants to win so badly he can opt out and sign for the mid level exception somewhere next season. Melo wants to win as long as its on the team that he wants and makes 27 million a year.

exactly. He can come in and be a good soldier. IF he doesnt like it sorry, he can opt out and join a banana boat in LA

If the Knicks And Knick fans want him gone so badly, they should buy him.out. See the problem? Reason for stale mate. Don't worry, he will be traded before season, Knicks just seeing what is the best return Houston will offer. But curious, what will be a good soldier? Dadmelo? An MVP type year when surrpunded by talent? Or staying professional in midst of Crazy Uncle Phil shenanigans?

I would be OK with a buyout if he opts out of the last year. I am not driven by emotion or a need to "get this guy out of here." It really comes down to whats best for the Knicks. If Melo is "staying Melo" which really means showing the young players how he does it his way while taking them under his wing and wining and dining them to how well Melo knows everyone in the NBA... well thats a disaster. We know where that leads.

Blame Phil, get ready for the year. I dont know how Jeff's relationship is with Melo, and that would be the biggest factor in my decision on what to do with Melo. If Jeff feels he can get him in rhythm and happy in a roll that helps us than I have no issue with just waiting and potentially starting the year with him on the roster.

If Jeff tells Perry that Melo is going to do it his way and the choices are cater to Melo or deal with Melo being divisive than its get him gone asap. Do we have that info?