Andrew wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Andrew wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:The problem is with a max offer to Porzings starting at 27.5 and Hardways deal at 19 in 2019 the Knicks are now at 88 million for 2019. This means even if a max player decided he wanted to come with a rising star in Porzingis the Knicks are capped out. I don't think everyone here is fully grasping how much this contracts hurts the future of the franchise. The Knicks need to shed Lee and Lance Thomas right now. That at least mitigates Hardaway

KPs cap hold for 2019 is $7.5M. You sign him after you get a FA to sign, and can then exceed the cap.

With that in mind please restate your argument.

That is not accurate.

While his QO will be $7.5m, his cap hold will 250% of his previous year's salary, or $14.5m.

That said, most people don't know Lance Thomas is only guaranteed $1m that season. Lee's deal should be movable and Noah can be stretched if necessary.

2 years is a long away off. To predict now what cap room they will or won't have is just alarmism.

I was quoting sportsrac's #s http://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/cap/2019/. Can you point me to a place that explains the 250% rule?

I can, and in the process can update this figure, it'll be 300% of $5.7m

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm - question 31.

Larry Bird, following the fourth season of his rookie scale contract - Below the average salary (previous salary) - 300% of his previous salary (effective 2018-19) or 250% of his previous salary (2017-18 only)

Andrew wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Andrew wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Andrew wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:The problem is with a max offer to Porzings starting at 27.5 and Hardways deal at 19 in 2019 the Knicks are now at 88 million for 2019. This means even if a max player decided he wanted to come with a rising star in Porzingis the Knicks are capped out. I don't think everyone here is fully grasping how much this contracts hurts the future of the franchise. The Knicks need to shed Lee and Lance Thomas right now. That at least mitigates Hardaway

KPs cap hold for 2019 is $7.5M. You sign him after you get a FA to sign, and can then exceed the cap.

With that in mind please restate your argument.

That is not accurate.

While his QO will be $7.5m, his cap hold will 250% of his previous year's salary, or $14.5m.

That said, most people don't know Lance Thomas is only guaranteed $1m that season. Lee's deal should be movable and Noah can be stretched if necessary.

2 years is a long away off. To predict now what cap room they will or won't have is just alarmism.

I was quoting sportsrac's #s http://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/cap/2019/. Can you point me to a place that explains the 250% rule?

I can, and in the process can update this figure, it'll be 300% of $5.7m

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm - question 31.

Larry Bird, following the fourth season of his rookie scale contract - Below the average salary (previous salary) - 300% of his previous salary (effective 2018-19) or 250% of his previous salary (2017-18 only)

THanks....so KPs cap hold will be 17M in 2019.

Yes.

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Should I prefer using cap space to sign Tim Hardaway Jr to this? I feel like things can rapidly fall apart for the Raptors, making that 2018 pick especially valuable. Even if it stays at 25, like Bonn predicts...I'd still prefer this deal to Hardaway's.

The Nets did the same thing the Knicks did initially, chased a young player they liked with an over pay. When that didn't work out they reset and took on cap for picks. The Nets chose Porter first. I like this move for the Nets. I am not sure if the Knicks would go this route. I think Cole gets moved for a pick soon as well.

The Nets are in a significantly different set of circumstances in my opinion though. They need to gamble and assume a higher degree of risk to improve since they have no franchise player, no draft picks and a roster unappealing to free agents. Despite our managerial/ownership instability, we do have some intriguing talent and the ability to turn things around relatively quickly with more saavy moves. Because of this incongruence, I wouldn't inform my decision making based on the Nets and what they do....though I would have made that trade for Carroll and not signed THJr.

The Raptors flipping Joseph for CJ Miles made it clear they were interested in a swingman and we obviously needed a PG. I would've offered Courtney Lee's services in exchange for Joseph and expanded the deal to include DeMarre Carroll (using our cap space), the rights to OB Anunoby and their 2018 second round pick. That would make more sense to me than THJr.

I feel the same way. We would've filled a few holes, gained some assets and remained flexible. I'm not kill THJ. He's solid. I'd have no problem with him at a lower price. But we weren't a solid NBA shooting guard away from contending, or even making the playoffs. There was no need take a gamble like that. Mills had salary cap space burning in his pocket and he couldn't resist the urge to spend it. Now we've limited our ability to improve the roster and we still suck.

Well, there's a payroll floor. You do have to spend the money on someone or otherwise pay penalty.

Then trading for a guy like Carroll could have brought us to the payroll floor, been a shorter financial commitment and given us two draft picks to augment our developing core. Signing THJr to an expensive contract feels like it runs counter to what a well run franchise should do.

The use of the term "picks" as if there isn't wildly different values between 1-60 has to stop.

Picks are the only way a team in our predicament can acquire value that's below market value.

That's fine, but if you're going to cite value, you define value.

I personally think that any pick in the first round is a premium asset,

Your belief is beside the point. Again, anyone versed in draft value will tell you a 20th pick is significantly closer to a 2nd round pick than a 10th.

Again, 30 is because there are 30 teams, NOT because there is some objective line of significant quality between 30 and 31.

I don't think some people get that, i think they hear "1st round" and get giddy.

More accurately there are picks 1-60, with progression of quality/value much more specific and nuanced than 1-30 and 31-60. There are many more "rounds" of projected quality than 2.

You're getting a chance at a better player locked into a 4 year deal with pick 20 than a 2nd round pick.

The convenience, the potential value of that doesn't alter the historical odds. We know how often a 20th pick breaks out into a star, rotation player, etc.

You're citing lottery rationalization. 'Well, there's a "chance"!'

Yes, there is, and we know its odds.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Should I prefer using cap space to sign Tim Hardaway Jr to this? I feel like things can rapidly fall apart for the Raptors, making that 2018 pick especially valuable. Even if it stays at 25, like Bonn predicts...I'd still prefer this deal to Hardaway's.

The Nets did the same thing the Knicks did initially, chased a young player they liked with an over pay. When that didn't work out they reset and took on cap for picks. The Nets chose Porter first. I like this move for the Nets. I am not sure if the Knicks would go this route. I think Cole gets moved for a pick soon as well.

The Nets are in a significantly different set of circumstances in my opinion though. They need to gamble and assume a higher degree of risk to improve since they have no franchise player, no draft picks and a roster unappealing to free agents. Despite our managerial/ownership instability, we do have some intriguing talent and the ability to turn things around relatively quickly with more saavy moves. Because of this incongruence, I wouldn't inform my decision making based on the Nets and what they do....though I would have made that trade for Carroll and not signed THJr.

The Raptors flipping Joseph for CJ Miles made it clear they were interested in a swingman and we obviously needed a PG. I would've offered Courtney Lee's services in exchange for Joseph and expanded the deal to include DeMarre Carroll (using our cap space), the rights to OB Anunoby and their 2018 second round pick. That would make more sense to me than THJr.

I feel the same way. We would've filled a few holes, gained some assets and remained flexible. I'm not kill THJ. He's solid. I'd have no problem with him at a lower price. But we weren't a solid NBA shooting guard away from contending, or even making the playoffs. There was no need take a gamble like that. Mills had salary cap space burning in his pocket and he couldn't resist the urge to spend it. Now we've limited our ability to improve the roster and we still suck.

Well, there's a payroll floor. You do have to spend the money on someone or otherwise pay penalty.

Then trading for a guy like Carroll could have brought us to the payroll floor, been a shorter financial commitment and given us two draft picks to augment our developing core. Signing THJr to an expensive contract feels like it runs counter to what a well run franchise should do.

The use of the term "picks" as if there isn't wildly different values between 1-60 has to stop.

Picks are the only way a team in our predicament can acquire value that's below market value.

That's fine, but if you're going to cite value, you define value.

I personally think that any pick in the first round is a premium asset,

Your belief is beside the point. Again, anyone versed in draft value will tell you a 20th pick is significantly closer to a 2nd round pick than a 10th.

Again, 30 is because there are 30 teams, NOT because there is some objective line of significant quality between 30 and 31.

I don't think some people get that, i think they hear "1st round" and get giddy.

More accurately there are picks 1-60, with progression of quality/value much more specific and nuanced than 1-30 and 31-60. There are many more "rounds" of projected quality than 2.

You're getting a chance at a better player locked into a 4 year deal with pick 20 than a 2nd round pick.

The convenience, the potential value of that doesn't alter the historical odds. We know how often a 20th pick breaks out into a star, rotation player, etc.

You're citing lottery rationalization. 'Well, there's a "chance"!'

Yes, there is, and we know its odds.

Wait, what exactly do we know? And what your source?

Historical analysis of draft picks.

You can hit on a player in the 20s, same as you can hit on a player in the 2nd round. And your odds are better in the 20s, but your odds take a steep decline as you get farther away from the top of the lottery.

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Should I prefer using cap space to sign Tim Hardaway Jr to this? I feel like things can rapidly fall apart for the Raptors, making that 2018 pick especially valuable. Even if it stays at 25, like Bonn predicts...I'd still prefer this deal to Hardaway's.

The Nets did the same thing the Knicks did initially, chased a young player they liked with an over pay. When that didn't work out they reset and took on cap for picks. The Nets chose Porter first. I like this move for the Nets. I am not sure if the Knicks would go this route. I think Cole gets moved for a pick soon as well.

The Nets are in a significantly different set of circumstances in my opinion though. They need to gamble and assume a higher degree of risk to improve since they have no franchise player, no draft picks and a roster unappealing to free agents. Despite our managerial/ownership instability, we do have some intriguing talent and the ability to turn things around relatively quickly with more saavy moves. Because of this incongruence, I wouldn't inform my decision making based on the Nets and what they do....though I would have made that trade for Carroll and not signed THJr.

The Raptors flipping Joseph for CJ Miles made it clear they were interested in a swingman and we obviously needed a PG. I would've offered Courtney Lee's services in exchange for Joseph and expanded the deal to include DeMarre Carroll (using our cap space), the rights to OB Anunoby and their 2018 second round pick. That would make more sense to me than THJr.

I feel the same way. We would've filled a few holes, gained some assets and remained flexible. I'm not kill THJ. He's solid. I'd have no problem with him at a lower price. But we weren't a solid NBA shooting guard away from contending, or even making the playoffs. There was no need take a gamble like that. Mills had salary cap space burning in his pocket and he couldn't resist the urge to spend it. Now we've limited our ability to improve the roster and we still suck.

Well, there's a payroll floor. You do have to spend the money on someone or otherwise pay penalty.

Then trading for a guy like Carroll could have brought us to the payroll floor, been a shorter financial commitment and given us two draft picks to augment our developing core. Signing THJr to an expensive contract feels like it runs counter to what a well run franchise should do.

The use of the term "picks" as if there isn't wildly different values between 1-60 has to stop.

Picks are the only way a team in our predicament can acquire value that's below market value.

That's fine, but if you're going to cite value, you define value.

I personally think that any pick in the first round is a premium asset,

Your belief is beside the point. Again, anyone versed in draft value will tell you a 20th pick is significantly closer to a 2nd round pick than a 10th.

Again, 30 is because there are 30 teams, NOT because there is some objective line of significant quality between 30 and 31.

I don't think some people get that, i think they hear "1st round" and get giddy.

More accurately there are picks 1-60, with progression of quality/value much more specific and nuanced than 1-30 and 31-60. There are many more "rounds" of projected quality than 2.

You're getting a chance at a better player locked into a 4 year deal with pick 20 than a 2nd round pick.

The convenience, the potential value of that doesn't alter the historical odds. We know how often a 20th pick breaks out into a star, rotation player, etc.

You're citing lottery rationalization. 'Well, there's a "chance"!'

Yes, there is, and we know its odds.

Wait, what exactly do we know? And what your source?

Since you asked so nicely...

http://www.businessinsider.com/nba-draft-pick-values-2017-6

Knickoftime wrote:

Andrew wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:The problem is with a max offer to Porzings starting at 27.5 and Hardways deal at 19 in 2019 the Knicks are now at 88 million for 2019. This means even if a max player decided he wanted to come with a rising star in Porzingis the Knicks are capped out. I don't think everyone here is fully grasping how much this contracts hurts the future of the franchise. The Knicks need to shed Lee and Lance Thomas right now. That at least mitigates Hardaway

KPs cap hold for 2019 is $7.5M. You sign him after you get a FA to sign, and can then exceed the cap.

With that in mind please restate your argument.

That is not accurate.

While his QO will be $7.5m, his cap hold will 250% of his previous year's salary, or $14.5m.

That said, most people don't know Lance Thomas is only guaranteed $1m that season. Lee's deal should be movable and Noah can be stretched if necessary.

2 years is a long away off. To predict now what cap room they will or won't have is just alarmism.

I did not know about Lance Thomas that is a relief. I still think Lee should go now before his game declines and his age scares away teams