Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:lol @ Melo staying for another year

We'll see. I think Phil is going to be forced to keep Melo or waive him or take back really bad contracts in a trade. I hope I'm wrong and some GM really wants Melo. I don't think Melo staying is that far-fetched even though it would create a dysfunctional environment. Probably not more dysfunction than we're used to though.

its ridiculous. Melo will not be here. But sure.. "we'll see."

Are you serious?

I mean, how can you not see the possible outcome where Phil fails to trade Melo? Not unrealistic given the fact that Melo's value is at an all time low, his contract is hard to match up, he has a NTC and a trade kicker?

And he's stated just about every time that he wants to stay.

Would it be distracting and dysfunctional if he stayed? Yes. More so than our prior years of dysfunction? Probably not.

The cap is only going up about $9M - to $103M.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/projecting-2017-18-nba-cap-room-under-new-deal-terms/

I don't see a ton of teams having the kind of cap room that they can just acquire Melo without sending back major contracts.

Like Bonn, I hope I'm wrong, and Melo finds a new home for next year.

YOU dont see because you cant envision anything positive happening for the Knicks. Melo will most certainly be gone, and he has said point blank when not wanted he will move on.

People that think he's going to ride it out or play Phil tough no nothing about Melo and simply have no paid attention to his career. Melo above all else wants to be wanted. Doc Rivers said point blank the Clippers would trade for him and his exact quote was "all those trades mentioned in the papers.. we would have done those trades."

So no.. he may say he wants to stay but never says he is.

Melo will give the Knicks a list of teams.. probably a small list, like Lakers, Clippers, Celtics and Cavs. Knicks will call those teams find the best offer and pull the trigger. This should not be hard to envision.

I'd be interested in seeing your vision of what an equitable trade with those 4 teams might look like, given that is is not difficult.

Well as a starting point we know that Crawford/Rivers for Melo works financially and that Doc Rivers said point blank "we make that trade."

I like Austin Rivers. I think he's a player that has been trending upward for some time. We also know Hornecek and Phil visited Rivers and recruited him heavily. Jamal Crawford is a very expensive bench scorer. I dont know if you can take a finder for him or not but that is the starting point of your trades. After that you see what the other teams offer.

The Lakers want big talent and Magic will want some star power. Lakers are interesting because they have 3 good young prospects in Russell, Ingram and Randle. They also have some really bad contract in guys like Deng and Mosgov, so some combo there is possible as well.

I dont anticipate the kind of trade that nets multiple picks and prospects, but I dont expect a pure dump either. Knicks will get something back.

The problem with Austin Rivers is he has a player option for next year.

Under the scenario in which he continues to evolve as a player, you're taking on $29m for Jamal Crawford to purchase one year and the Bird rights to Rivers next summer. That's very limited upside unless you expect the Knicks to do something in 2017-18.

Also not seeing how taking on Deng or Mosgov for $50-55m is worth the price of admission for some talented prospects with question marks.

Would like to hear your thoughts on Celtics or Cavs.

Love is pretty much the only way the latter could happen, right?

Yeah I'm not interested in that LA deal either. I don't picture anything of value coming for Melo. Phil made this bed. He's going to have to lie in it or make a worse bed.

this is not a poker hand. This is team building. Melo represents more than his WS/48. You do understand that right?

There is no worse bed than a star player making a fortune that tunes out a FO and coaching staff. Changing that will be a start with the culture. How much talent they get in return remains to be seen.

As for the Austin Rivers opting out issue... let him. There wont half the league with huge space spacing offering him Allan Crabbe money. Most likely that ship has sailed. If I trade for Rivers and he explodes or continues his upward trend, than paying him is a good thing, not a bad.

Ah ha, I think I misunderstood you.

I thought you meant there's be a attractive market for Melo. You know seem to be suggesting it is more important to get rid of him and the Knicks will have to take an undesirable return with perhaps a hint of eventual upside.

attractive? I dont think it will be barren. If you are looking at Melo from the outside in he's got upside. He will be happier for one. He played this year under marital strife, and that will 100% take its a hit on performance. He will be happy to out of the Knicks. He will play better not feeling like he's got to carry an organization. He will be better playing a different role with better players. The question is how much to opposing GMs value him? Melo is certainly still an impact player and scorer. He will also be easier to aquire than some of the other options on the market. Its rare when teams can add a veteran player like Melo. There will be a market, it will really depend on how many teams he chooses to let the Knicks negotiate with. I am assuming its a small group like Bos/LA/LA/Cle and maybe another...

I dont think its important to get rid of him, its imperative. Once that happens many things will be revealed next year. Whether they are good or bad we will see, but with Phil here there is no other option, even if Kobe says otherwise. Kobe dealt directly with Phil. Melo isnt even doing that. This situation just needs to be moved on from.

The issue is the return for Melo will be more dictated by market forces than his upside as an NBA player. Two teams on his maybe-waive-the-NTC clause aren't just maxed out, they're waaaay maxed out and their simple roster reality is a bigger factor than their potential desire to add him.

Cleveland simply doesn't have the puzzle pieces other than Love.

With the Clips it's Crawford or bust.

Boston is the easiest fit, but of all the teams I question each parties mutual interest. And now Boston is having a very unfriendly media day in terms of attracting star African American players.

Lakers theoretically could squeeze him in with Clarkson and maybe one of the three pieces you mention thrown in, but does Melo want to move across country for a likely lateral basketball move (and if they lose their pick it gets worse) playing in the shadow of his best friend?

We will see what happens. I am not saying it will be good, but I am saying it doesnt HAVE to be bad, and there are plenty of reasons why. End of the day Denver got the greatest deal ever and what did it yield them? Exactly the same it did us. One great year and not much else.

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:lol @ Melo staying for another year

We'll see. I think Phil is going to be forced to keep Melo or waive him or take back really bad contracts in a trade. I hope I'm wrong and some GM really wants Melo. I don't think Melo staying is that far-fetched even though it would create a dysfunctional environment. Probably not more dysfunction than we're used to though.

its ridiculous. Melo will not be here. But sure.. "we'll see."

Are you serious?

I mean, how can you not see the possible outcome where Phil fails to trade Melo? Not unrealistic given the fact that Melo's value is at an all time low, his contract is hard to match up, he has a NTC and a trade kicker?

And he's stated just about every time that he wants to stay.

Would it be distracting and dysfunctional if he stayed? Yes. More so than our prior years of dysfunction? Probably not.

The cap is only going up about $9M - to $103M.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/projecting-2017-18-nba-cap-room-under-new-deal-terms/

I don't see a ton of teams having the kind of cap room that they can just acquire Melo without sending back major contracts.

Like Bonn, I hope I'm wrong, and Melo finds a new home for next year.

YOU dont see because you cant envision anything positive happening for the Knicks. Melo will most certainly be gone, and he has said point blank when not wanted he will move on.

People that think he's going to ride it out or play Phil tough no nothing about Melo and simply have no paid attention to his career. Melo above all else wants to be wanted. Doc Rivers said point blank the Clippers would trade for him and his exact quote was "all those trades mentioned in the papers.. we would have done those trades."

So no.. he may say he wants to stay but never says he is.

Melo will give the Knicks a list of teams.. probably a small list, like Lakers, Clippers, Celtics and Cavs. Knicks will call those teams find the best offer and pull the trigger. This should not be hard to envision.

I'd be interested in seeing your vision of what an equitable trade with those 4 teams might look like, given that is is not difficult.

Well as a starting point we know that Crawford/Rivers for Melo works financially and that Doc Rivers said point blank "we make that trade."

I like Austin Rivers. I think he's a player that has been trending upward for some time. We also know Hornecek and Phil visited Rivers and recruited him heavily. Jamal Crawford is a very expensive bench scorer. I dont know if you can take a finder for him or not but that is the starting point of your trades. After that you see what the other teams offer.

The Lakers want big talent and Magic will want some star power. Lakers are interesting because they have 3 good young prospects in Russell, Ingram and Randle. They also have some really bad contract in guys like Deng and Mosgov, so some combo there is possible as well.

I dont anticipate the kind of trade that nets multiple picks and prospects, but I dont expect a pure dump either. Knicks will get something back.

The problem with Austin Rivers is he has a player option for next year.

Under the scenario in which he continues to evolve as a player, you're taking on $29m for Jamal Crawford to purchase one year and the Bird rights to Rivers next summer. That's very limited upside unless you expect the Knicks to do something in 2017-18.

Also not seeing how taking on Deng or Mosgov for $50-55m is worth the price of admission for some talented prospects with question marks.

Would like to hear your thoughts on Celtics or Cavs.

Love is pretty much the only way the latter could happen, right?

Yeah I'm not interested in that LA deal either. I don't picture anything of value coming for Melo. Phil made this bed. He's going to have to lie in it or make a worse bed.

this is not a poker hand. This is team building. Melo represents more than his WS/48. You do understand that right?

There is no worse bed than a star player making a fortune that tunes out a FO and coaching staff. Changing that will be a start with the culture. How much talent they get in return remains to be seen.

As for the Austin Rivers opting out issue... let him. There wont half the league with huge space spacing offering him Allan Crabbe money. Most likely that ship has sailed. If I trade for Rivers and he explodes or continues his upward trend, than paying him is a good thing, not a bad.

Ah ha, I think I misunderstood you.

I thought you meant there's be a attractive market for Melo. You know seem to be suggesting it is more important to get rid of him and the Knicks will have to take an undesirable return with perhaps a hint of eventual upside.

attractive? I dont think it will be barren. If you are looking at Melo from the outside in he's got upside. He will be happier for one. He played this year under marital strife, and that will 100% take its a hit on performance. He will be happy to out of the Knicks. He will play better not feeling like he's got to carry an organization. He will be better playing a different role with better players. The question is how much to opposing GMs value him? Melo is certainly still an impact player and scorer. He will also be easier to aquire than some of the other options on the market. Its rare when teams can add a veteran player like Melo. There will be a market, it will really depend on how many teams he chooses to let the Knicks negotiate with. I am assuming its a small group like Bos/LA/LA/Cle and maybe another...

I dont think its important to get rid of him, its imperative. Once that happens many things will be revealed next year. Whether they are good or bad we will see, but with Phil here there is no other option, even if Kobe says otherwise. Kobe dealt directly with Phil. Melo isnt even doing that. This situation just needs to be moved on from.

The issue is the return for Melo will be more dictated by market forces than his upside as an NBA player. Two teams on his maybe-waive-the-NTC clause aren't just maxed out, they're waaaay maxed out and their simple roster reality is a bigger factor than their potential desire to add him.

Cleveland simply doesn't have the puzzle pieces other than Love.

With the Clips it's Crawford or bust.

Boston is the easiest fit, but of all the teams I question each parties mutual interest. And now Boston is having a very unfriendly media day in terms of attracting star African American players.

Lakers theoretically could squeeze him in with Clarkson and maybe one of the three pieces you mention thrown in, but does Melo want to move across country for a likely lateral basketball move (and if they lose their pick it gets worse) playing in the shadow of his best friend?

that is one way to look at it. Another way is what are the opportunities teams like those have opportunities to add a player like Melo? If it was 1 team than yea.. its going to be really limited. However if you have 3-4 teams "interested" things change quickly and teams scramble to make things happen.

We will see what happens. I am not saying it will be good, but I am saying it doesnt HAVE to be bad, and there are plenty of reasons why. End of the day Denver got the greatest deal ever and what did it yield them? Exactly the same it did us. One great year and not much else.

That's my point though. Clippers and Cleveland are limited by 100% their CBA/roster. What you're sort of describing is a competitive market generating a bidding war and two teams really don't have any creative options. We already know what their rosters allow them to do.

There is no scramble, really, and since he's under contract, Melo has no reason to be moved by a market bidding war. His decision is binary - where do *I* want to play. Their offers are irrelevant to him.

If Cleveland for some reason blinks and offers Love (which is no homen by itself), even if the Celtics or Lakers overreacted and put their pick on the board, this does nothing for Melo, who has the final say. And do we think he has any motivation to do the Knicks any favors by playing the Celtics and Lakers (or anyone else) against one another?

The conditions simply don't exist for a bidding war and Clips and Cavs have no options in one anyway.

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

fishmike wrote:lol @ Melo staying for another year

We'll see. I think Phil is going to be forced to keep Melo or waive him or take back really bad contracts in a trade. I hope I'm wrong and some GM really wants Melo. I don't think Melo staying is that far-fetched even though it would create a dysfunctional environment. Probably not more dysfunction than we're used to though.

its ridiculous. Melo will not be here. But sure.. "we'll see."

Are you serious?

I mean, how can you not see the possible outcome where Phil fails to trade Melo? Not unrealistic given the fact that Melo's value is at an all time low, his contract is hard to match up, he has a NTC and a trade kicker?

And he's stated just about every time that he wants to stay.

Would it be distracting and dysfunctional if he stayed? Yes. More so than our prior years of dysfunction? Probably not.

The cap is only going up about $9M - to $103M.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/projecting-2017-18-nba-cap-room-under-new-deal-terms/

I don't see a ton of teams having the kind of cap room that they can just acquire Melo without sending back major contracts.

Like Bonn, I hope I'm wrong, and Melo finds a new home for next year.

YOU dont see because you cant envision anything positive happening for the Knicks. Melo will most certainly be gone, and he has said point blank when not wanted he will move on.

People that think he's going to ride it out or play Phil tough no nothing about Melo and simply have no paid attention to his career. Melo above all else wants to be wanted. Doc Rivers said point blank the Clippers would trade for him and his exact quote was "all those trades mentioned in the papers.. we would have done those trades."

So no.. he may say he wants to stay but never says he is.

Melo will give the Knicks a list of teams.. probably a small list, like Lakers, Clippers, Celtics and Cavs. Knicks will call those teams find the best offer and pull the trigger. This should not be hard to envision.

I'd be interested in seeing your vision of what an equitable trade with those 4 teams might look like, given that is is not difficult.

Well as a starting point we know that Crawford/Rivers for Melo works financially and that Doc Rivers said point blank "we make that trade."

I like Austin Rivers. I think he's a player that has been trending upward for some time. We also know Hornecek and Phil visited Rivers and recruited him heavily. Jamal Crawford is a very expensive bench scorer. I dont know if you can take a finder for him or not but that is the starting point of your trades. After that you see what the other teams offer.

The Lakers want big talent and Magic will want some star power. Lakers are interesting because they have 3 good young prospects in Russell, Ingram and Randle. They also have some really bad contract in guys like Deng and Mosgov, so some combo there is possible as well.

I dont anticipate the kind of trade that nets multiple picks and prospects, but I dont expect a pure dump either. Knicks will get something back.

The problem with Austin Rivers is he has a player option for next year.

Under the scenario in which he continues to evolve as a player, you're taking on $29m for Jamal Crawford to purchase one year and the Bird rights to Rivers next summer. That's very limited upside unless you expect the Knicks to do something in 2017-18.

Also not seeing how taking on Deng or Mosgov for $50-55m is worth the price of admission for some talented prospects with question marks.

Would like to hear your thoughts on Celtics or Cavs.

Love is pretty much the only way the latter could happen, right?

Yeah I'm not interested in that LA deal either. I don't picture anything of value coming for Melo. Phil made this bed. He's going to have to lie in it or make a worse bed.

this is not a poker hand. This is team building. Melo represents more than his WS/48. You do understand that right?

There is no worse bed than a star player making a fortune that tunes out a FO and coaching staff. Changing that will be a start with the culture. How much talent they get in return remains to be seen.

As for the Austin Rivers opting out issue... let him. There wont half the league with huge space spacing offering him Allan Crabbe money. Most likely that ship has sailed. If I trade for Rivers and he explodes or continues his upward trend, than paying him is a good thing, not a bad.

Ah ha, I think I misunderstood you.

I thought you meant there's be a attractive market for Melo. You know seem to be suggesting it is more important to get rid of him and the Knicks will have to take an undesirable return with perhaps a hint of eventual upside.

attractive? I dont think it will be barren. If you are looking at Melo from the outside in he's got upside. He will be happier for one. He played this year under marital strife, and that will 100% take its a hit on performance. He will be happy to out of the Knicks. He will play better not feeling like he's got to carry an organization. He will be better playing a different role with better players. The question is how much to opposing GMs value him? Melo is certainly still an impact player and scorer. He will also be easier to aquire than some of the other options on the market. Its rare when teams can add a veteran player like Melo. There will be a market, it will really depend on how many teams he chooses to let the Knicks negotiate with. I am assuming its a small group like Bos/LA/LA/Cle and maybe another...

I dont think its important to get rid of him, its imperative. Once that happens many things will be revealed next year. Whether they are good or bad we will see, but with Phil here there is no other option, even if Kobe says otherwise. Kobe dealt directly with Phil. Melo isnt even doing that. This situation just needs to be moved on from.

The issue is the return for Melo will be more dictated by market forces than his upside as an NBA player. Two teams on his maybe-waive-the-NTC clause aren't just maxed out, they're waaaay maxed out and their simple roster reality is a bigger factor than their potential desire to add him.

Cleveland simply doesn't have the puzzle pieces other than Love.

With the Clips it's Crawford or bust.

Boston is the easiest fit, but of all the teams I question each parties mutual interest. And now Boston is having a very unfriendly media day in terms of attracting star African American players.

Lakers theoretically could squeeze him in with Clarkson and maybe one of the three pieces you mention thrown in, but does Melo want to move across country for a likely lateral basketball move (and if they lose their pick it gets worse) playing in the shadow of his best friend?

that is one way to look at it. Another way is what are the opportunities teams like those have opportunities to add a player like Melo? If it was 1 team than yea.. its going to be really limited. However if you have 3-4 teams "interested" things change quickly and teams scramble to make things happen.

We will see what happens. I am not saying it will be good, but I am saying it doesnt HAVE to be bad, and there are plenty of reasons why. End of the day Denver got the greatest deal ever and what did it yield them? Exactly the same it did us. One great year and not much else.

That's my point though. Clippers and Cleveland are limited by 100% their CBA/roster. What you're sort of describing is a competitive market generating a bidding war and two teams really don't have any creative options. We already know what their rosters allow them to do.

There is no scramble, really, and since he's under contract, Melo has no reason to be moved by a market bidding war. His decision is binary - where do *I* want to play. Their offers are irrelevant to him.

If Cleveland for some reason blinks and offers Love (which is no homen by itself), even if the Celtics or Lakers overreacted and put their pick on the board, this does nothing for Melo, who has the final say. And do we think he has any motivation to do the Knicks any favors by playing the Celtics and Lakers (or anyone else) against one another?

The conditions simply don't exist for a bidding war and Clips and Cavs have no options in one anyway.

"End of the day Denver got the greatest deal ever" ... holy crap.

Knickoftime wrote:I do wonder IF Griffin leaves as a free agent, or even as a salary neutral S&T for a draft pick, if this would open up enough Clipper cap space to make a Melo for Rivers (sans Crawford) trade work?

Pierce is also under contract for $4m but is retiring, could be used as fodder.

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:I do wonder IF Griffin leaves as a free agent, or even as a salary neutral S&T for a draft pick, if this would open up enough Clipper cap space to make a Melo for Rivers (sans Crawford) trade work?

Pierce is also under contract for $4m but is retiring, could be used as fodder.

Dont count out the Lakers. Its very important for Melo to be wanted. Obviously if they win/lose the lottery that will have a big impact on their talent level. Surely we would at get at least one good prospect like Ingram or Russell along with Deng or Clarkson for money. Who knows what Boston offers if they are interested at all but they have a lot of parts they have been unable to consolidate.
Again... I am not predicting a bidding war netting us great assets, but having a little competition should net us a good asset, and I think there will be enough to accomplish that. Or maybe Phil decides to bring back Jose. Who the phuck knows

For a selfish DOUCHE player with the entrenched label of someone who "forced himself here through THE TRADE OF RAPE", I don't get how Melo is someone who needs to be wanted.
Just sayin.

Jayzus, I must owe tkf/dk7th LLC about $1.4 mil in royalties on the unauthorized posting of "DOUCHE". Hope no one's keeping track.