crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?

THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.

How's his defense?

WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?

Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.

Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:

crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!

I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=51620

I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.

Like I said, I was on board until Phil gave up on Grant a year later. For a player we're all praying the Knicks don't re-sign.

If you go back and look at my posts throughout the year, I lamented the way Hardaway was used and was bummed. You remember when Kerr had a handshake deal to coach the Knicks? One of the main reasons he wanted to come here was Hardaway. He gave Hardaway an All NBA Rookie First Team vote. (There were also rumors that Hardaway had his girlfriend diddled by DFish and that was a reason for the trade, which I didn't hear until the following year when it came out that he was diddling Barnes' ex and possibly also diddled Cleanthony's girl.)

There's no pipeline, there's no direction, there's no consistency.

2013-4 offseason the narrative was "I'm going to bring in vets who understand how to play team ball and install system basketball"... Phil trades Tyson and Felton and eventually Shump and JR for Jose Calderon and Lance Thomas.

2014-5 offseason the narrative was "we might have cap room to sign not one but TWO max players"... we get Rolo and Afflalo. Hardaway traded. Shved leaves for nothing. Thanasis leaves the NBA.

2015-6 offseason the narrative was "KP is ahead of schedule and potentially great, let's build to match Melo's timeline, we'll bring in a coach who won't necessarily coach the Triangle"...Phil trades Grant and Rolo for Rose and signs Noah and CLee. Young guard Galloway leaves for nothing. Cleanthony leaves for nothing.

2016-17 offseason narrative "it's all Melo's fault, it's time to rebuild and go back to the Triangle"... moves TBD

Meanwhile, we're winning meaningless games down the stretch to worsen our draft pick and some guys here are saying it's all about developing the young players anyway.

But if you can find enough consistency there to make you happy, more power to you. We're approaching half a decade of offseasons of Phil changing his mind. I hope he sticks to a plan this time, but I'm not gonna hold my breath if that's okay with you.

Your take on the Rose trade:

crzymdups wrote:Wow. Not sure where I stand on this trade. What's our cap look like for this summer now?

I loved DRose as a player back in the day. Not sure what he has left in the tank at this rate.

It'll be interesting. With Hornacek running things... could be very interesting. Hornacek got his 28yr old PG.

Curious to hear Melo's reaction...

That doesnt read like your pretty pissed about giving up on Grant. Sure does sound like you see some logic at the time behind this.

Again the REAL problem is trying to build around Melo and Melo's timeline. You are 100% right that because of that the narritive has changed. I am willing to see how we move on from this, starting with the draft and what the team looks like post Melo. Maybe that sounds like "just waiting another year" to you, but if Melo goes its the first year since Ewing left we didnt have a savior or some star player faux player to build around. Its about a team and adding parts. I am looking forward to that and OK with sit through this drama, ESPECIALLY while I see us trying to build and add/develop young guys.

Yes, a ringing endorsement. "Wow. Not sure where I stand on this trade."

And if you think KP won't immediately be tabbed the savior role (and hasn't already by some here), I don't know what to tell you.

Like I said, I can't wait til Melo is traded, because then Phil finally has no more excuses. I'm actually wondering if Phil will even trade his safety net away. It's a risky move.

Well while the KNicks are struggling with a young team you can post Melo's scoring lines every night as he helps catapult the Clippers to another 2nd round exit.... if it makes you feel better.

No. You didnt make a ringing endorsement. It was a wait and see reaction. Far different than "giving up on Grant was the last straw" which is what you said earlier.

I doubt there will ever be a last straw for me. I love the Knicks and want them to be good. It doesn't mean I lie to myself and pretend to be excited about the job Phil has done here.

Who is asking you to do that? Who is doing that here? (Dont mention Nix, he doesnt count).

Actually its me. I admit it. I am excited about the prospect of moving forward with a Phil created team post Melo/Rose. I am excited to see how the coach looks with a young roster and no veteran players with egos who only play a certain way to cater to. I am indeed excited about that. I also understand it will probably result in another 30ish win season which is what it is. I do believe we see an uptick in next year's win total and style of play, but lets wait and see. I am also excited to see the new Marvel movies. These days the excitement levels are about the same. Rebuilding sucks. Its tough. It means bad play and losing stretches, but its how foundations are built. I didnt expect it to be mistake free. I am ok with "the plan" moving forward.

Actually, I guess what I'm really tired of is posters here villifying the likes of Afflalo and Melo and giving Phil a pass. I suppose it's not much a surprise I see it the opposite way - they've been good soldiers for a reeling, plan-changing old man who trashes the very pieces he brought in behind their backs to Charley Rosen over a bowl of good sticky ganja.

I'm not sure how fans can have faith in "the plan" when Phil and co changed the offensive system THREE TIMES this year. First it was Hornacek's Triangle Aspects, then they moved away from the Triangle almost entirely and went with more pick and roll, then after the all-star break it was full on Triangle again. Is it any wonder veterans like Rose and Melo and CLee threw up their hands in disgust and just tried to play the game the way they always had?

If "the plan" going forward is full on Triangle, great. It hasn't worked in the league in years, it bombed in Minnesota, it's bombed terribly here whenever it is actually being run. I don't have much faith in it working, but at least be consistent about it, for god's sake.

when in need, "Break glass and use Rambis to futher argument".....
Phil's last year coaching was 7 years ago. Won a chip. "years ago....."!!!!
It bombed in Minny. Why? We been over that. Kahn, who passed over Steph Curry TWICE!!! Rambis was stupid to take that job. Not saying he did a good job, not saying anyone could have. But one could argue it if you look a the facts. Look at the facts. Not to defend your position. But to be accurate. Then install the concept things are subjective sometimes.
I undertand Rubio at the time was a hot commodity, but Jonny Flynn?? Ouch.
You know, not everyone pro phil is anti Melo. Many of us are just like "Tick-Tock....Time to move. WE can lose plenty with or without Melo for a host of reasons. There are some that just think knicks made a bad call trading picks to hurry the process of surrounding melo with players to be successful. This predates Phil. This is why he gets patience.
You want to hyper argue Phil as the culprit and melo was not the reason.
Actually if you calm down you would have noticed.

As for the triangle, since no other team dares to try, I find that intriguing.
Since you can't really say who the Next guy would be, I don't know why you get excited.
Steve MIlls is the GM of the knicks. I would think he would be elevated to President. Steve mills is a very smart guy and well respected by many. Not by you. YOu want what all media fed fans want and that's for someone to come for your EMOTIONAL RESCUE.

Verse two:

Don't you know promises were never meant to keep?
Just like the night, they dissolve off in sleep
I'll be your savior, steadfast and true
I'll come to your emotional rescue
I'll come to your emotional rescue
Ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh
Ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh
Yeah, the other night, cryin', cryin' baby yeah I'm cryin
Yeah I'm cryin, I'm your child baby, child,
Yeah I'm a child, I'm a child, I'm a child

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Tim Hardaway last night in Atlanta's 123-116 win over Boston -

23pts 5reb 5ast 10-17fg 2-3 from 3pt

Come to think of it, he was one of the Phil's scape goats for the 2014-5 season.

Don't want this one to get lost on the last page. Can't wait to hear the Triangle Spin on this one.

Are you so bent on creating an argument that you need to reach back to a player that was on the Knicks like 2 years ago?

THJr has not been an average NBA player until the last few months. So, 4 years in the league and he finally has shown up. Kudos for him for finally getting it.

How's his defense?

WTF does this have to do with the Triangle?

Phil gave up on him because he wasn't a triangle fit. Atlanta spent last year breaking down all his bad habits and building him back up into a team player. It's called player development. This year he's a breakout young star for them.

Your response when the Knicks trade Hardaway for Grant:

crzymdups wrote:Wooooohooooooo!!!!

I'm back baby!!! I'm back!!!

http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=51620

I mean cmon man... every move is going to be perfect and no player we let go can EVER become good or up their game? Cmon man.

Like I said, I was on board until Phil gave up on Grant a year later. For a player we're all praying the Knicks don't re-sign.

If you go back and look at my posts throughout the year, I lamented the way Hardaway was used and was bummed. You remember when Kerr had a handshake deal to coach the Knicks? One of the main reasons he wanted to come here was Hardaway. He gave Hardaway an All NBA Rookie First Team vote. (There were also rumors that Hardaway had his girlfriend diddled by DFish and that was a reason for the trade, which I didn't hear until the following year when it came out that he was diddling Barnes' ex and possibly also diddled Cleanthony's girl.)

There's no pipeline, there's no direction, there's no consistency.

2013-4 offseason the narrative was "I'm going to bring in vets who understand how to play team ball and install system basketball"... Phil trades Tyson and Felton and eventually Shump and JR for Jose Calderon and Lance Thomas.

2014-5 offseason the narrative was "we might have cap room to sign not one but TWO max players"... we get Rolo and Afflalo. Hardaway traded. Shved leaves for nothing. Thanasis leaves the NBA.

2015-6 offseason the narrative was "KP is ahead of schedule and potentially great, let's build to match Melo's timeline, we'll bring in a coach who won't necessarily coach the Triangle"...Phil trades Grant and Rolo for Rose and signs Noah and CLee. Young guard Galloway leaves for nothing. Cleanthony leaves for nothing.

2016-17 offseason narrative "it's all Melo's fault, it's time to rebuild and go back to the Triangle"... moves TBD

Meanwhile, we're winning meaningless games down the stretch to worsen our draft pick and some guys here are saying it's all about developing the young players anyway.

But if you can find enough consistency there to make you happy, more power to you. We're approaching half a decade of offseasons of Phil changing his mind. I hope he sticks to a plan this time, but I'm not gonna hold my breath if that's okay with you.

Your take on the Rose trade:

crzymdups wrote:Wow. Not sure where I stand on this trade. What's our cap look like for this summer now?

I loved DRose as a player back in the day. Not sure what he has left in the tank at this rate.

It'll be interesting. With Hornacek running things... could be very interesting. Hornacek got his 28yr old PG.

Curious to hear Melo's reaction...

That doesnt read like your pretty pissed about giving up on Grant. Sure does sound like you see some logic at the time behind this.

Again the REAL problem is trying to build around Melo and Melo's timeline. You are 100% right that because of that the narritive has changed. I am willing to see how we move on from this, starting with the draft and what the team looks like post Melo. Maybe that sounds like "just waiting another year" to you, but if Melo goes its the first year since Ewing left we didnt have a savior or some star player faux player to build around. Its about a team and adding parts. I am looking forward to that and OK with sit through this drama, ESPECIALLY while I see us trying to build and add/develop young guys.

Yes, a ringing endorsement. "Wow. Not sure where I stand on this trade."

And if you think KP won't immediately be tabbed the savior role (and hasn't already by some here), I don't know what to tell you.

Like I said, I can't wait til Melo is traded, because then Phil finally has no more excuses. I'm actually wondering if Phil will even trade his safety net away. It's a risky move.

Well while the KNicks are struggling with a young team you can post Melo's scoring lines every night as he helps catapult the Clippers to another 2nd round exit.... if it makes you feel better.

No. You didnt make a ringing endorsement. It was a wait and see reaction. Far different than "giving up on Grant was the last straw" which is what you said earlier.

I doubt there will ever be a last straw for me. I love the Knicks and want them to be good. It doesn't mean I lie to myself and pretend to be excited about the job Phil has done here.

Who is asking you to do that? Who is doing that here? (Dont mention Nix, he doesnt count).

Actually its me. I admit it. I am excited about the prospect of moving forward with a Phil created team post Melo/Rose. I am excited to see how the coach looks with a young roster and no veteran players with egos who only play a certain way to cater to. I am indeed excited about that. I also understand it will probably result in another 30ish win season which is what it is. I do believe we see an uptick in next year's win total and style of play, but lets wait and see. I am also excited to see the new Marvel movies. These days the excitement levels are about the same. Rebuilding sucks. Its tough. It means bad play and losing stretches, but its how foundations are built. I didnt expect it to be mistake free. I am ok with "the plan" moving forward.

Actually, I guess what I'm really tired of is posters here villifying the likes of Afflalo and Melo and giving Phil a pass. I suppose it's not much a surprise I see it the opposite way - they've been good soldiers for a reeling, plan-changing old man who trashes the very pieces he brought in behind their backs to Charley Rosen over a bowl of good sticky ganja.

I'm not sure how fans can have faith in "the plan" when Phil and co changed the offensive system THREE TIMES this year. First it was Hornacek's Triangle Aspects, then they moved away from the Triangle almost entirely and went with more pick and roll, then after the all-star break it was full on Triangle again. Is it any wonder veterans like Rose and Melo and CLee threw up their hands in disgust and just tried to play the game the way they always had?

If "the plan" going forward is full on Triangle, great. It hasn't worked in the league in years, it bombed in Minnesota, it's bombed terribly here whenever it is actually being run. I don't have much faith in it working, but at least be consistent about it, for god's sake.

I just dont think you are being honest here. I think you on a Phil rant/tilt and I think you see anyone who isnt on the same tilt as giving Phil a pass. Pass for what? Is me being willing to wait a bit longer giving him a pass? Phil hasnt made good moves here. I say that over and over again and I am labeled as the leader of the pro Phil movement. Its bull****. Im sorry I dont feel the need to assess blame. It accomplishes nothing. Its nonconstructive.
If you want to assess responsibility it lies all around. It lies with Phil for assembling this roster. It lies with the coach for not having players on the same page. It lies with the players who underperformed or put their own brands or agendas before what is best for the team and it lies with the owner who created this environment in the first place which would merit needing to pay Phil Jackson $12mm a year in the first place.

So while we can argue who shoulders the most responsibility lets just pass on that for now and agree that responsibility for this failure can be shared all around, whether it be more on Phil or not.

What can you do moving forward? The owner is here to stay. That leaves the players and Phil. Again, regardless of blame at some point the marriage between Phil and Melo took a bad turn and went toxic. One has to go. So I look at value, performance, implications of one staying and one leaving... what do I see?
I see a player who puts himself first and doesnt play a brand of basketball that will even win anything but an early exit or god forbid a trip to round 2.
I see a GM who has fumbled through rosters and coaches and gave the money player money, only to realize this isnt the guy. I also see a GM who has stayed pretty flexible, not wasted future assets doubling down on mistakes and a GM who is very active in developing young players and using the draft.

So when I step back and look at everything wrong with this whole picture I dont hyper focus on triangle, Jose or what Rodman, Shaq or Pippin have to say. I simply see that the chance of the Knicks ever competing for a title with Mel on this roster as ZERO. So being that does it make sense to keep him? Does he help our youth development? Does he lead or play in ways I want rubbing off on my young players? As a veteran are his needs in line with the best direction for the team?

See how this works? Its not Phil camp or Melo camp. Its also not giving Phil a pass or being excited about anything he's done. Is what it is. Clarity.

Man, usually I don't think you're in that camp, but lately it seems you are resorting to blaming Melo, too. I'm not a Melo lover by any stretch. Back in the Lin days, I blamed Melo for that and I still think it's partially his fault that Lin wasn't re-signed, along with a hefty heap of Dolan being a big baby. People here at the time lit into me for defending Lin and said Melo was clearly innocent. I said Melo got MDA fired, too, and people lit into me and told me MDA clearly quit for his own personal reasons. I call this **** as I see it. Sometimes I'm wrong, sometimes I'm right.

But - My response to the Knicks is honest. I'm not being disingenuous and I have no agenda other that I think Phil has not done a good job and I'm tired of hearing about the Triangle will fix things if we just get the right players for it. It's a disappointing stretch to be a Knicks fan and has been since 2013. Obviously it's time to move on from Melo... if we can.

But to me this blame Melo game was STARTED by Phil. Let's be real about that. Phil is the one who started this blame game. Because he needed a scapegoat for this season. Because he put his chips on the table and bet they could make the playoffs and lost badly.

And let's be real about another thing - Melo may be a difficult and flawed player to build around... and he is. But Phil CHOSE to build around Melo. He CHOSE TO DO THIS. He gave him a near max deal. He gave him a no trade. He gave him a trade kicker that may make him harder to move than the No Trade.

So I'm just really not into Phil's narrative that this is all Melo's fault. He chose to sign Melo. He chose to build around him. He made the wrong moves to do so and now it's Melo's fault for not developing Lebron-like court vision in his 12th year? Phil should have very much known what he was getting into with Melo, or he should have been honest with himself from the get go. He wasn't and here we are.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Then he hired Hornacek, the Rose trade happened, he signed Noah and CLee and all the sudden we were no longer rebuilding and going with the Triangle.

Again... saving blame. We know after the KP/Lopez/Grant/etc season that Phil sat down with Melo to ask the famous question "Are we moving fast enough for you?"
Then Rose trade
Noah
Lee
Jennings

How much of an impact did that conversation have?
What prompted those moves?
If Melo is not on this roster do you think Phil still makes those trades/signings?

Honest questions... You see it as Melo blame. In reality you are denying just how bid an impact Melo has on what happens here and that we simply need to move on from that influence as its the last standing obstacle (with Dolan's interference allegedly removed)

Again - Phil chose to build around Melo. That was his choice as President. He also made every choice of who to bring in to help Melo. To turn around and blame Melo for the way Phil chose to build around Melo... seems sort of backwards.

Also, moving on from Melo will be exceedingly difficult because of the contract he was given by Phil. 15% trade kicker makes his salary on July 1 over $30M per year in a trade. $30M!

Is it Melo's fault Phil gave 31yr old broken Noah 4yrs? Dear god, I lose track of the logical twister you guys have to do to make Phil completely innocent in all this and decide he's doing a great job in spite of Melo bringing in all these terrible vets that Melo keeps signing.

How is Phil innocent? Where do I say that? YOU keep injecting that because it supports your feelings. You feel this way so you keep putting it out there. YOU FEEL like Phil is innocent. Nobody here is saying that but you.

Saying the best fix to moving forward is removing Melo from the equation is NOT the same as saying Phil has not responsibility. Man you are really tilting on this. Take a breath man.

Yea its Melo's fault Noah is broken down. Seriously give me a break. It might certainly be Melo's fault that Phil felt compelled to spend and get him veteran help. Or should I say its likely that deal is NOT made is Melo is here. Again.. you want to say thats blaming Melo so you can feel a certain way about this. Maybe it upsets you that Phil survives longer as a Knick than Melo does. Is that it? All the blood sweat and tears and Melo gets the boot? Please. Please. Nobody has benefited from Melo being here more than Melo.

Maybe Phil is just an old crackpot who's won 11 rings. Funny how you think Phil gets off free. He gets creamed in the papers every day. Melo is portrayed as the bistander. Fine. But end of day Melo goes and thats the right move.

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:Jennings: "Willy is the next Marc Gasol"

Jennings: "I’m in the same position I was in New York... with a team that actually plays together."

Jennings says lots of things.

That being said you can see the agenda driven holfresh thinking. Chicken and the egg.. if Melo played better think there are any trade discussions? When you are the star player, the team isnt playing well and you are among career lows in points, rebs, assists and FG% you are going to hear trade trade rumors. Thats how pro sports works.

Hey holfresh... if you suck at your job your probably going to get fired. If you get fired its because you suck, not because the impending doom of being fired hurt your performance.

You've quoted Jennings say Willy is Marc Gasol jr. like ten times on this board as proof that Willy was legit.

But now when Jennings says something you don't like "he may have an agenda".

Anyone who watched the team saw the effect Phil had on Melo as soon as Phil did his thing in mid-December. Team was 14-10, Knicks were in LA and Melo met with Phil. Melo was clearly pissed after the meeting. The team is 16-40 since the meeting. As the trade talk got louder and the Rosen columns dropped, so did the Knicks defensive effort.

For someone whose all about "trust" and "team play" and "culture" Phil sure doesn't hold himself to those standards. He's a massive failure on the culture front here. People here are rolling around with delight that the Knicks only lost by 3 to a Washington team that clearly gave zero ****s last night - because they knew they didn't have to be engaged to beat us. They could've beaten us by 40pts if they wanted to. When it was close in the final two minutes, Wall just calmly drove down the lane for a WIDE OPEN DUNK.

I saw some sad posts saying Baker outplayed John Wall. Dear god, it's sad. Wall was taking the night off, while on the court. It was an exhibition game for Washington.

exactly. Its just a quote. I dont think Willy is legit because Jennings says he is. I think he's legit for about 40 other reasons. I posted the Willy quote for the exact reason you called me out. Holfresh would never acknowledge Willy's potential. Phil draft someone good in round 2? Naaaaahhh... but if Jennings said Phil phucked things up lets start a thread.

Phil camp. Thats me. Tent is up and the fire is on. Come have some 11 ring chili. It may be slow to cook but history shows its a good recipe. I think you have been eating a brand that has left a bad taste in your mouth. As for Phil if he keeps turning this thing over and drafting well while he figures out how to get the type of players in he wants to build around fine. Back into a rebuild? OK. Horrible Noah signing? Sure. Pump up the volume. Willing to be patient with a guy like Phil vs. a like Melo? Ill take Phil. Ive seen Melo's brand for 7 years. Im ready to let Phil fumble around until he finds the right mix.

So yea. Phil camp.

Well, unless Phil has plans to re-up another five years and do this til he's 80, he's only got two years left before Dolan brings Isiah back. I'm sure the Knicks will be really great once Melo is gone! What have we won in the last 16 years with Melo anyway?

it would be hard to imagine Isiah. I would assume if Phil doesnt re-up in some capacity that Mills would take it over, or possible Houston. Maybe they promote Gaines in some capacity to keep him around. Maybe Phil takes a 2-3 year extension.

Here's the thing... Phil doesnt trade picks and has drafted well. I fully recognize that the Phil era may simply be a house cleaning. 4-5 years of losing seasons, Melo drama, Dolan cussing at fans... but during that stretch of losing we build up a sustainable young base of quality talent. IF we do nothing but more of same while adding some high end draft talent than when Phil leaves we will have a flexible roster loaded with young talent. I can live with that. I see that as the downside. The upside is he gets the guys together that he envisioned when took this job, we play system basketball and are built around a foundation of young talent led by KP. I am willing to wait and see. Thats really all I am saying. The Phil camp response is tongue and cheek as for some reason some really need to establish factions.

Were Grant, THJ not draft picks? Your partially right...Thanasis, Early were wasted not traded. Although trading them two, would have at least given us something in return.

crzymdups wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Then he hired Hornacek, the Rose trade happened, he signed Noah and CLee and all the sudden we were no longer rebuilding and going with the Triangle.

Again... saving blame. We know after the KP/Lopez/Grant/etc season that Phil sat down with Melo to ask the famous question "Are we moving fast enough for you?"
Then Rose trade
Noah
Lee
Jennings

How much of an impact did that conversation have?
What prompted those moves?
If Melo is not on this roster do you think Phil still makes those trades/signings?

Honest questions... You see it as Melo blame. In reality you are denying just how bid an impact Melo has on what happens here and that we simply need to move on from that influence as its the last standing obstacle (with Dolan's interference allegedly removed)

Again - Phil chose to build around Melo. That was his choice as President. He also made every choice of who to bring in to help Melo. To turn around and blame Melo for the way Phil chose to build around Melo... seems sort of backwards.

Also, moving on from Melo will be exceedingly difficult because of the contract he was given by Phil. 15% trade kicker makes his salary on July 1 over $30M per year in a trade. $30M!

Is it Melo's fault Phil gave 31yr old broken Noah 4yrs? Dear god, I lose track of the logical twister you guys have to do to make Phil completely innocent in all this and decide he's doing a great job in spite of Melo bringing in all these terrible vets that Melo keeps signing.

holfresh wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:The prevailing point of view from the players, if you look at Jennings, KP and Melo's comments were that management and specifically Phil, affected on court play with his antics...Charlie Rosen article and tweets didn't help cultivate an environment that leads to winning, it distracted the team...Knicks were 14-10 when all this started...

It's a very WEAK argument IMO. Phil calling for more ball movement should not cause a group of seasoned vets to fall apart!!! This is just excuse making at its worst. DO YOUR DAMNED JOB!!!
Move the ball and play some D! This is all that they had to do.

That's your narrative..They called a meeting to tell Phil they will moved away from running the triangle..Phil, according to the players, "took it well"...Until he didn't, and lashed out in the media...So you can promote your narrative, which isn't accurate...

Is this comment so bad that it should completely destroy a team???

"He can play that role that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played," Jackson said. "That's a perfect spot for him, to be in that isolated position on the weak side. Because it's an overload offense and there's a weak-side man that always has an advantage if the ball is swung.

"Carmelo a lot of times wants to hold the ball longer than — we have a rule: If you hold a pass two seconds, you benefit the defense. So he has a little bit of a tendency to hold it for three, four, five seconds, and then everybody comes to a stop,” Jackson said on Tuesday. “That is one of the things we work with. But he’s adjusted to (the triangle), he knows what he can do and he’s willing to see its success.”

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/phil-jackson-carmelo-anthony-can-play-jordan-kobe-role-but-holds-ball-too-long/

Yep, it's ridiculous how overblown Phil's comments have become.melo is so soft when it comes to criticism- imagine if he'd played for JVG!

How is Melo soft on criticism??..He has played well through it and put up some spectacular numbers during the criticism..January and Feb #s were like 25 and 6...Many people have commented on this and the way he has handled the press ..It's the rest of the team that have collapsed...

Phil didn't criticize Melo being able to score on his own. He was talking about Melo not fully buying into the Team concept and moving the ball. Not making the game easier for his teammates. It's not enough that Melo can get his numbers!!!

Melo also put too much emphasis on his scoring all the while playing poorly on Defense. It's of course not just him. The poor D came from multiple players.

He's just one player but he has a very central role and handles the ball so much that he has to be more aware of being a facilitator as well as a scorer.

All of this is really not what's most important. What Phil and Melo decide to do this summer is what's most important. Their decisions will be critical for the future of the franchise.

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Then he hired Hornacek, the Rose trade happened, he signed Noah and CLee and all the sudden we were no longer rebuilding and going with the Triangle.

Again... saving blame. We know after the KP/Lopez/Grant/etc season that Phil sat down with Melo to ask the famous question "Are we moving fast enough for you?"
Then Rose trade
Noah
Lee
Jennings

How much of an impact did that conversation have?
What prompted those moves?
If Melo is not on this roster do you think Phil still makes those trades/signings?

Honest questions... You see it as Melo blame. In reality you are denying just how bid an impact Melo has on what happens here and that we simply need to move on from that influence as its the last standing obstacle (with Dolan's interference allegedly removed)

Anyone that thinks Phil would consult with anyone but himself, specially Melo, when making moves, is even more lost than I thought.

you think?

Unfortunately for you, as I keep calling you out, I do. And much better than you.

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Then he hired Hornacek, the Rose trade happened, he signed Noah and CLee and all the sudden we were no longer rebuilding and going with the Triangle.

Again... saving blame. We know after the KP/Lopez/Grant/etc season that Phil sat down with Melo to ask the famous question "Are we moving fast enough for you?"
Then Rose trade
Noah
Lee
Jennings

How much of an impact did that conversation have?
What prompted those moves?
If Melo is not on this roster do you think Phil still makes those trades/signings?

Honest questions... You see it as Melo blame. In reality you are denying just how bid an impact Melo has on what happens here and that we simply need to move on from that influence as its the last standing obstacle (with Dolan's interference allegedly removed)

Anyone that thinks Phil would consult with anyone but himself, specially Melo, when making moves, is even more lost than I thought.

you think?

Unfortunately for you, as I keep calling you out, I do. And much better than you.

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:The prevailing point of view from the players, if you look at Jennings, KP and Melo's comments were that management and specifically Phil, affected on court play with his antics...Charlie Rosen article and tweets didn't help cultivate an environment that leads to winning, it distracted the team...Knicks were 14-10 when all this started...

It's a very WEAK argument IMO. Phil calling for more ball movement should not cause a group of seasoned vets to fall apart!!! This is just excuse making at its worst. DO YOUR DAMNED JOB!!!
Move the ball and play some D! This is all that they had to do.

That's your narrative..They called a meeting to tell Phil they will moved away from running the triangle..Phil, according to the players, "took it well"...Until he didn't, and lashed out in the media...So you can promote your narrative, which isn't accurate...

Is this comment so bad that it should completely destroy a team???

"He can play that role that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played," Jackson said. "That's a perfect spot for him, to be in that isolated position on the weak side. Because it's an overload offense and there's a weak-side man that always has an advantage if the ball is swung.

"Carmelo a lot of times wants to hold the ball longer than — we have a rule: If you hold a pass two seconds, you benefit the defense. So he has a little bit of a tendency to hold it for three, four, five seconds, and then everybody comes to a stop,” Jackson said on Tuesday. “That is one of the things we work with. But he’s adjusted to (the triangle), he knows what he can do and he’s willing to see its success.”

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/phil-jackson-carmelo-anthony-can-play-jordan-kobe-role-but-holds-ball-too-long/

Yep, it's ridiculous how overblown Phil's comments have become.melo is so soft when it comes to criticism- imagine if he'd played for JVG!

How is Melo soft on criticism??..He has played well through it and put up some spectacular numbers during the criticism..January and Feb #s were like 25 and 6...Many people have commented on this and the way he has handled the press ..It's the rest of the team that have collapsed...

Phil didn't criticize Melo being able to score on his own. He was talking about Melo not fully buying into the Team concept and moving the ball. Not making the game easier for his teammates. It's not enough that Melo can get his numbers!!!

Melo also put too much emphasis on his scoring all the while playing poorly on Defense. It's of course not just him. The poor D came from multiple players.

He's just one player but he has a very central role and handles the ball so much that he has to be more aware of being a facilitator as well as a scorer.

All of this is really not what's most important. What Phil and Melo decide to do this summer is what's most important. Their decisions will be critical for the future of the franchise.

Phil was pissed they were winning and not running the triangle...The team thrived not running the triangle with Melo as the central player and he lashed out..That's why the team was confused at his response...Phil has a giant ego who wants win his way...Whatever man...Long live the Triangle...

Have a great weekend dude

fishmike wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:The prevailing point of view from the players, if you look at Jennings, KP and Melo's comments were that management and specifically Phil, affected on court play with his antics...Charlie Rosen article and tweets didn't help cultivate an environment that leads to winning, it distracted the team...Knicks were 14-10 when all this started...

It's a very WEAK argument IMO. Phil calling for more ball movement should not cause a group of seasoned vets to fall apart!!! This is just excuse making at its worst. DO YOUR DAMNED JOB!!!
Move the ball and play some D! This is all that they had to do.

That's your narrative..They called a meeting to tell Phil they will moved away from running the triangle..Phil, according to the players, "took it well"...Until he didn't, and lashed out in the media...So you can promote your narrative, which isn't accurate...

Is this comment so bad that it should completely destroy a team???

"He can play that role that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played," Jackson said. "That's a perfect spot for him, to be in that isolated position on the weak side. Because it's an overload offense and there's a weak-side man that always has an advantage if the ball is swung.

"Carmelo a lot of times wants to hold the ball longer than — we have a rule: If you hold a pass two seconds, you benefit the defense. So he has a little bit of a tendency to hold it for three, four, five seconds, and then everybody comes to a stop,” Jackson said on Tuesday. “That is one of the things we work with. But he’s adjusted to (the triangle), he knows what he can do and he’s willing to see its success.”

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/phil-jackson-carmelo-anthony-can-play-jordan-kobe-role-but-holds-ball-too-long/

Yep, it's ridiculous how overblown Phil's comments have become.melo is so soft when it comes to criticism- imagine if he'd played for JVG!

How is Melo soft on criticism??..He has played well through it and put up some spectacular numbers during the criticism..January and Feb #s were like 25 and 6...Many people have commented on this and the way he has handled the press ..It's the rest of the team that have collapsed...

Phil didn't criticize Melo being able to score on his own. He was talking about Melo not fully buying into the Team concept and moving the ball. Not making the game easier for his teammates. It's not enough that Melo can get his numbers!!!

Melo also put too much emphasis on his scoring all the while playing poorly on Defense. It's of course not just him. The poor D came from multiple players.

He's just one player but he has a very central role and handles the ball so much that he has to be more aware of being a facilitator as well as a scorer.

All of this is really not what's most important. What Phil and Melo decide to do this summer is what's most important. Their decisions will be critical for the future of the franchise.

Phil was pissed they were winning and not running the triangle...The team thrived not running the triangle with Melo as the central player and he lashed out..That's why the team was confused at his response...Phil has a giant ego who wants win his way...Whatever man...Long live the Triangle...

word! See? That wasnt so hard.

Have a great weekend dude

tootles...

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:The prevailing point of view from the players, if you look at Jennings, KP and Melo's comments were that management and specifically Phil, affected on court play with his antics...Charlie Rosen article and tweets didn't help cultivate an environment that leads to winning, it distracted the team...Knicks were 14-10 when all this started...

It's a very WEAK argument IMO. Phil calling for more ball movement should not cause a group of seasoned vets to fall apart!!! This is just excuse making at its worst. DO YOUR DAMNED JOB!!!
Move the ball and play some D! This is all that they had to do.

That's your narrative..They called a meeting to tell Phil they will moved away from running the triangle..Phil, according to the players, "took it well"...Until he didn't, and lashed out in the media...So you can promote your narrative, which isn't accurate...

Is this comment so bad that it should completely destroy a team???

"He can play that role that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played," Jackson said. "That's a perfect spot for him, to be in that isolated position on the weak side. Because it's an overload offense and there's a weak-side man that always has an advantage if the ball is swung.

"Carmelo a lot of times wants to hold the ball longer than — we have a rule: If you hold a pass two seconds, you benefit the defense. So he has a little bit of a tendency to hold it for three, four, five seconds, and then everybody comes to a stop,” Jackson said on Tuesday. “That is one of the things we work with. But he’s adjusted to (the triangle), he knows what he can do and he’s willing to see its success.”

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/phil-jackson-carmelo-anthony-can-play-jordan-kobe-role-but-holds-ball-too-long/

Yep, it's ridiculous how overblown Phil's comments have become.melo is so soft when it comes to criticism- imagine if he'd played for JVG!

How is Melo soft on criticism??..He has played well through it and put up some spectacular numbers during the criticism..January and Feb #s were like 25 and 6...Many people have commented on this and the way he has handled the press ..It's the rest of the team that have collapsed...

Phil didn't criticize Melo being able to score on his own. He was talking about Melo not fully buying into the Team concept and moving the ball. Not making the game easier for his teammates. It's not enough that Melo can get his numbers!!!

Melo also put too much emphasis on his scoring all the while playing poorly on Defense. It's of course not just him. The poor D came from multiple players.

He's just one player but he has a very central role and handles the ball so much that he has to be more aware of being a facilitator as well as a scorer.

All of this is really not what's most important. What Phil and Melo decide to do this summer is what's most important. Their decisions will be critical for the future of the franchise.

Phil was pissed they were winning and not running the triangle...The team thrived not running the triangle with Melo as the central player and he lashed out..That's why the team was confused at his response...Phil has a giant ego who wants win his way...Whatever man...Long live the Triangle...

See you keep doing it again. Phil didn't "lash out" in any of those comments you see above! He was making a very correct observation and in truth the team was 12-9 on Dec. 7th back when the CBS Sports Article came out. THey lost that nights game against the Cavs to fall to 12-10. If you read the article Phil was NOT attacking Melo!!! While it was constructive criticism, it wasn't vicious. It was a very tame set of statements by Phil. It was the Media that made it seem like Phil said something vicious when he did NOT.

Phil Jackson: Carmelo Anthony can play Jordan-Kobe role, but holds ball too long
Is this a compliment?

James Herbert

Dec 07, 2016 • 3 min read

In his interview on CBS Sports Network's We Need To Talk on Tuesday, Phil Jackson did more than issue a non-apology about calling LeBron James' business associates a "posse" and discuss marijuana in light of Golden State Warriors coach Steve Kerr saying he used it last season in an attempt to treat his back pain. Jackson also talked about his New York Knicks.
Apart from stealing a page from Kevin Durant's book by calling Kristaps Porzingis a "unicorn," the most notable part was when Jackson offered his thoughts on Carmelo Anthony and how he fits in the triangle offense.

"He can play that role that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played," Jackson said. "That's a perfect spot for him, to be in that isolated position on the weak side. Because it's an overload offense and there's a weak-side man that always has an advantage if the ball is swung.

"Carmelo, a lot of times, wants to hold the ball longer than -- we have a rule, if you hold a pass two seconds, you benefit the defense. So he has a little bit of a tendency to hold the ball for three, four, five seconds, then everybody comes to a stop. That is one of the things we work with. But he has adjusted to it, he knows what it can do and he's willing to see its success."

Tracy Wolfson then brought up the fact that Anthony attracts a lot of criticism, asking Jackson if he thinks the star forward is misunderstood.

"Carmelo's genuinely a solid person, a citizen, I think," Jackson said. "He has good intentions. I think some of the things that come along with him, I always say I can go back to [Syracuse coach Jim] Boeheim and say that was the zone that he played in college. But that's just a joke I have with him. The aspect of learning in the NBA and developing habits become entrenched, and sometimes you have to break those habits to change your manner of playing, and I think that's one of the things he's had to do with this new group of guys.

It's a little bit different. He doesn't have sole possession of the offense. There are other people that are involved in the offense, and he embraces that. But then you still have habits you have to break, and I think that's one of the things. Defensively, we've talked to him a lot about movement and that aspect of -- we're now into high-performance things, where we have cameras that can legislate or watch movement on the court all the time -- each have, you can go back and check that. We're trying to get him to get more active as a defensive player. That's one of the things that I think is noticeable, that he has changed. And we're liking that."

We've heard this stuff before from Jackson, and that's precisely why it's interesting. In an HBO interview all the way back in 2012, Jackson said that Anthony "has to be a better passer" and "the ball can't stop every time it hits his hands." After becoming the president of the Knicks in March 2014 and re-signing Anthony that summer, Jackson again said "the ball has to continually move" when discussing how Anthony can get better.

If this sounds bad, it's because, to a large extent, Anthony is who he is. He's always been much more comfortable with the ball in his hands than without it, and he likes to size up the defense, take a few dribbles and attack guys one-on-one. Jackson is totally correct that these are his habits, but it's hard to get one of the best isolation scorers on the planet to approach offense differently.

The good news: It's not like Jackson never butted heads with Jordan or Bryant on this very same issue. The stars want their offensive freedom, and Jackson wants discipline within the confines of the triangle. The partnership worked best when they found some sort of balance, and that's all that New York can hope for.

Also, thanks to those SportVU cameras Jackson was talking about, we have access to some data on this, which shows that Anthony has indeed cut down on his dribbling somewhat since Jackson showed up.

         Average seconds per touch	Average dribbles per touch
2013-14	 3.22	                        2.25
2014-15	 2.68	                        1.5
2015-16	 2.97	                        1.9
2016-17	 2.7	                        1.64

For reference, Bryant held the ball for an average of 3.35 seconds with 2.19 dribbles per touch during his farewell tour last season, and Klay Thompson is holding the ball for an average of 1.85 seconds with 1.19 dribbles per touch this year. All of these stats are courtesy of NBA.com.