CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:The amount of speculation and conjecture people are willing to go to so they can make Melo look good is mindboggling. I mean these guys are putting the fan into fantasy everyday. How to suspend reality and go into Alt-Melo universe. They would make Jonatgan Livingstone Seagull jealous.

The team is brutally bad with or without melo. That's pretty much the bottom line. I don't understand why you haven't figure that part out yet

Melo accounts for 26% of our ENTIRE salary cap

Cool. Don't be dumb and resign him to a contract that can't be traded because you gave him a ntc, a trade kicker, and almost a max deal if you don't like how he plays. If he is your guy and you give him that then you build your team around his skills. Not sure if any exec has ever had such a stupid approach to signing a max player that has been in the league for 12 years.

Not sure any exec had what it takes to survive both Dolan and Melo for 3 years either. People see what they want to see.

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:I appreciate Melo as a player and his loyalty to the Knicks. I wish things had worked out better with him here. I thought Melo had turned the corner last year when he was passing at the highest rate of his career. He did not continue in that growth and this is what led Phil to lash out. Let's not forget this key fact!!!

Everyone is free to be angry with Phil for his failures as President but this is also a referendum on Melo. This season might still have been a failure but the Phil v Melo stuff is about MELO not doing the things he should as the highest paid player on the team and a Vet leader. Melo was praised last year for being DadMelo so why did he stop leading?

I can't excuse this and I don't blame Phil for calling Melo out.

It's funny because Melo is pretty much the same player he was when he came to the Knicks. He is an elite scorer. He has been called the toughest cover by his peers in the past. Now because Melo didn't change enough in year 14 of his career he is the bad guy? That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Fourteen years in Melo's faults probably aren't changing much. They weren't changing much twelve years in when Phil gave him the NTC and the huge trade kicker. During the broadcast yesterday MJax and JVG brought up coaching continuity, roster continuity and roster construction. There has been no continuity with the roster and there have been 4 coaches in Phil's 3 plus years. JVG also brought up that he thought roster construction was much better when Woodson was coaching. Grunwald knew Melo's strengths and weaknesses and built a team around them. Phil gave Melo a contract that can't be traded and now is mad because Melo is playing like he has for his entire tenure in the nba. But it's on Melo. If you dont know what type of player Melo is after 12 years you are a fool. If you make that huge commitment and then continue to cobble together rosters that don't compliment Melo and aren't competitive in today's nba you should be let go or reassigned.

Melo needs to move on but Phil's roster construction, coaching hires, trades, and meddling are all on him. Both guys need to go but I believe Phil has his job for as long as he wants it.

Good post crush

I do think melo should have change his game a little to fit in better, just like all these centers in the league are now shooting 3's. I just think that Phil put a bunch of young d leaguers around melo, which was as dumb as it gets, because now your asking a top flight scorer to trust his teammates who have been super inconsistent in every imaginable way.

Melo demonstrated he COULD CHANGE last year when he passed the ball more. His Assist % was 20.9 last year and only 14.1 this year. Melo could EASILY pass the ball more and it has nothing to do with teammates. This is all on Melo. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!!

Why not look at the dynamics of everything..

Last yr Melo ran point fwd for the most part, He had was getting at least 2 assist from lopez, who always rolled to the baskets on PnR, unlike KP who ventures 30 ft from the basket for a low percentage shot. You notice how willy (who roles to the basket) has received pin point passes from melo in a High Pnr.

No one on the bench is shooting above 40%, and no in the starting line is shooting above avg except rose.... so the trust just ain't there, not to mention that one game we will run a lot of PNR, the next will run JH's version of the triangle, and the next game we're full triangle, and this has been going all season long.

Were are only scoring more points this yr, because we are taking more FT's, we have more penetrator's. Other than that the offense still is a ball of confusion every other game..

Man I just can't believe the extent you guys are going to excuse Melo's regression as a leader and on the floor. There has been more than enough opportunity to PASS THE BALL in the flow of the offense by Melo!

This isn't about Melo not trusting his teammates!!! I mean come on!!! He doesn't trust Rose, CLee or KP??? Sure guys miss shots but that is not why Melo stopped passing like he was last year.

The offense is NOT a ball of confusion is you execute but Melo and Rose break the offense!!! There is no excuse for the lack of passing from the 2 players that have the most talent, experience and touches every game. If Melo was purely a Catch and Shoot player I could understand but he holds the ball on most possessions. This draws defensive attention and Melo has multiple options on every play if he chose to explore it.

OK..All this fake outrage to support your anti-Melo rhetoric...We can look at these stats on your level..Melo has a 29% USG with a 14% ast.% and KP 24% USG with a 7% ast.%...But I'm sure the latter doesn't concern you one bit..

Look it up...ast.% is usually consistent for a player's career..So don't tell me about being a young player..

You really can't compare KP and Melo in how they are used in the offense. KP is only just beginning to learn how to properly post up and most of his offense is Catch and Shoot. KP holds the ball for less than 2 seconds 69% of his touches. He holds the ball for 6 or more Seconds only 1.5%. Melo holds the ball for 2-6 seconds 43.2% and 6 or more second 14.8%. And guess when Melo is MOST efficient?? When he holds the for for less than 2 seconds!!!

TOUCH TIME RANGE	GP	G	FREQ	FGM	FGA	FG%	EFG%
Touch < 2 Seconds	71	71	42.0%	3.6	7.9	45.9	56.0
Touch 2-6 Seconds	71	70	43.2%	3.3	8.1	41.2	43.4
Touch 6+ Seconds	71	68	14.8%	1.2	2.8	43.7	45.9

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/shots-dash/

Let's not try and twist this so that it makes Melo look better by trashing KP!!! That my friend is BULLSHYTE!!!

STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!! This dude could have done a better job of leading the team by example simply by passing more, holding it less and giving more effort on D. If Melo had done these EASY things no one would be able to blame him for anything. Phil got on him for these very reasons and he was right.

Hey nix, what was Melo's assist percentage during the 54 win 2012-13 season? I already know, but I can't wait to hear your spin.

oh It's Coming

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:I appreciate Melo as a player and his loyalty to the Knicks. I wish things had worked out better with him here. I thought Melo had turned the corner last year when he was passing at the highest rate of his career. He did not continue in that growth and this is what led Phil to lash out. Let's not forget this key fact!!!

Everyone is free to be angry with Phil for his failures as President but this is also a referendum on Melo. This season might still have been a failure but the Phil v Melo stuff is about MELO not doing the things he should as the highest paid player on the team and a Vet leader. Melo was praised last year for being DadMelo so why did he stop leading?

I can't excuse this and I don't blame Phil for calling Melo out.

It's funny because Melo is pretty much the same player he was when he came to the Knicks. He is an elite scorer. He has been called the toughest cover by his peers in the past. Now because Melo didn't change enough in year 14 of his career he is the bad guy? That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Fourteen years in Melo's faults probably aren't changing much. They weren't changing much twelve years in when Phil gave him the NTC and the huge trade kicker. During the broadcast yesterday MJax and JVG brought up coaching continuity, roster continuity and roster construction. There has been no continuity with the roster and there have been 4 coaches in Phil's 3 plus years. JVG also brought up that he thought roster construction was much better when Woodson was coaching. Grunwald knew Melo's strengths and weaknesses and built a team around them. Phil gave Melo a contract that can't be traded and now is mad because Melo is playing like he has for his entire tenure in the nba. But it's on Melo. If you dont know what type of player Melo is after 12 years you are a fool. If you make that huge commitment and then continue to cobble together rosters that don't compliment Melo and aren't competitive in today's nba you should be let go or reassigned.

Melo needs to move on but Phil's roster construction, coaching hires, trades, and meddling are all on him. Both guys need to go but I believe Phil has his job for as long as he wants it.

Good post crush

I do think melo should have change his game a little to fit in better, just like all these centers in the league are now shooting 3's. I just think that Phil put a bunch of young d leaguers around melo, which was as dumb as it gets, because now your asking a top flight scorer to trust his teammates who have been super inconsistent in every imaginable way.

Melo demonstrated he COULD CHANGE last year when he passed the ball more. His Assist % was 20.9 last year and only 14.1 this year. Melo could EASILY pass the ball more and it has nothing to do with teammates. This is all on Melo. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!!

Why not look at the dynamics of everything..

Last yr Melo ran point fwd for the most part, He had was getting at least 2 assist from lopez, who always rolled to the baskets on PnR, unlike KP who ventures 30 ft from the basket for a low percentage shot. You notice how willy (who roles to the basket) has received pin point passes from melo in a High Pnr.

No one on the bench is shooting above 40%, and no in the starting line is shooting above avg except rose.... so the trust just ain't there, not to mention that one game we will run a lot of PNR, the next will run JH's version of the triangle, and the next game we're full triangle, and this has been going all season long.

Were are only scoring more points this yr, because we are taking more FT's, we have more penetrator's. Other than that the offense still is a ball of confusion every other game..

Man I just can't believe the extent you guys are going to excuse Melo's regression as a leader and on the floor. There has been more than enough opportunity to PASS THE BALL in the flow of the offense by Melo!

This isn't about Melo not trusting his teammates!!! I mean come on!!! He doesn't trust Rose, CLee or KP??? Sure guys miss shots but that is not why Melo stopped passing like he was last year.

The offense is NOT a ball of confusion is you execute but Melo and Rose break the offense!!! There is no excuse for the lack of passing from the 2 players that have the most talent, experience and touches every game. If Melo was purely a Catch and Shoot player I could understand but he holds the ball on most possessions. This draws defensive attention and Melo has multiple options on every play if he chose to explore it.

OK..All this fake outrage to support your anti-Melo rhetoric...We can look at these stats on your level..Melo has a 29% USG with a 14% ast.% and KP 24% USG with a 7% ast.%...But I'm sure the latter doesn't concern you one bit..

Look it up...ast.% is usually consistent for a player's career..So don't tell me about being a young player..

You really can't compare KP and Melo in how they are used in the offense. KP is only just beginning to learn how to properly post up and most of his offense is Catch and Shoot. KP holds the ball for less than 2 seconds 69% of his touches. He holds the ball for 6 or more Seconds only 1.5%. Melo holds the ball for 2-6 seconds 43.2% and 6 or more second 14.8%. And guess when Melo is MOST efficient?? When he holds the for for less than 2 seconds!!!

TOUCH TIME RANGE	GP	G	FREQ	FGM	FGA	FG%	EFG%
Touch < 2 Seconds	71	71	42.0%	3.6	7.9	45.9	56.0
Touch 2-6 Seconds	71	70	43.2%	3.3	8.1	41.2	43.4
Touch 6+ Seconds	71	68	14.8%	1.2	2.8	43.7	45.9

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/shots-dash/

Let's not try and twist this so that it makes Melo look better by trashing KP!!! That my friend is BULLSHYTE!!!

STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!! This dude could have done a better job of leading the team by example simply by passing more, holding it less and giving more effort on D. If Melo had done these EASY things no one would be able to blame him for anything. Phil got on him for these very reasons and he was right.

Hey nix, what was Melo's assist percentage during the 54 win 2012-13 season? I already know, but I can't wait to hear your spin.

STRAW MAN ARGUMENT!!! This is not the same situation. Why do you think people came up with the whole DadMelo thing? This team needs Melo to take on that kind of fatherly role. THIS AINT 2012-13!!!

This really gets F'n ridiculous at a certain point. Melo was asked to play more Tean Oriented which actually would be easier for him and preserve his career but he's too F'n stubborn and selfish to stick to that approach. No matter what you guys say IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO!

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:I appreciate Melo as a player and his loyalty to the Knicks. I wish things had worked out better with him here. I thought Melo had turned the corner last year when he was passing at the highest rate of his career. He did not continue in that growth and this is what led Phil to lash out. Let's not forget this key fact!!!

Everyone is free to be angry with Phil for his failures as President but this is also a referendum on Melo. This season might still have been a failure but the Phil v Melo stuff is about MELO not doing the things he should as the highest paid player on the team and a Vet leader. Melo was praised last year for being DadMelo so why did he stop leading?

I can't excuse this and I don't blame Phil for calling Melo out.

It's funny because Melo is pretty much the same player he was when he came to the Knicks. He is an elite scorer. He has been called the toughest cover by his peers in the past. Now because Melo didn't change enough in year 14 of his career he is the bad guy? That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Fourteen years in Melo's faults probably aren't changing much. They weren't changing much twelve years in when Phil gave him the NTC and the huge trade kicker. During the broadcast yesterday MJax and JVG brought up coaching continuity, roster continuity and roster construction. There has been no continuity with the roster and there have been 4 coaches in Phil's 3 plus years. JVG also brought up that he thought roster construction was much better when Woodson was coaching. Grunwald knew Melo's strengths and weaknesses and built a team around them. Phil gave Melo a contract that can't be traded and now is mad because Melo is playing like he has for his entire tenure in the nba. But it's on Melo. If you dont know what type of player Melo is after 12 years you are a fool. If you make that huge commitment and then continue to cobble together rosters that don't compliment Melo and aren't competitive in today's nba you should be let go or reassigned.

Melo needs to move on but Phil's roster construction, coaching hires, trades, and meddling are all on him. Both guys need to go but I believe Phil has his job for as long as he wants it.

Good post crush

I do think melo should have change his game a little to fit in better, just like all these centers in the league are now shooting 3's. I just think that Phil put a bunch of young d leaguers around melo, which was as dumb as it gets, because now your asking a top flight scorer to trust his teammates who have been super inconsistent in every imaginable way.

Melo demonstrated he COULD CHANGE last year when he passed the ball more. His Assist % was 20.9 last year and only 14.1 this year. Melo could EASILY pass the ball more and it has nothing to do with teammates. This is all on Melo. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!!

Why not look at the dynamics of everything..

Last yr Melo ran point fwd for the most part, He had was getting at least 2 assist from lopez, who always rolled to the baskets on PnR, unlike KP who ventures 30 ft from the basket for a low percentage shot. You notice how willy (who roles to the basket) has received pin point passes from melo in a High Pnr.

No one on the bench is shooting above 40%, and no in the starting line is shooting above avg except rose.... so the trust just ain't there, not to mention that one game we will run a lot of PNR, the next will run JH's version of the triangle, and the next game we're full triangle, and this has been going all season long.

Were are only scoring more points this yr, because we are taking more FT's, we have more penetrator's. Other than that the offense still is a ball of confusion every other game..

Man I just can't believe the extent you guys are going to excuse Melo's regression as a leader and on the floor. There has been more than enough opportunity to PASS THE BALL in the flow of the offense by Melo!

This isn't about Melo not trusting his teammates!!! I mean come on!!! He doesn't trust Rose, CLee or KP??? Sure guys miss shots but that is not why Melo stopped passing like he was last year.

The offense is NOT a ball of confusion is you execute but Melo and Rose break the offense!!! There is no excuse for the lack of passing from the 2 players that have the most talent, experience and touches every game. If Melo was purely a Catch and Shoot player I could understand but he holds the ball on most possessions. This draws defensive attention and Melo has multiple options on every play if he chose to explore it.

OK..All this fake outrage to support your anti-Melo rhetoric...We can look at these stats on your level..Melo has a 29% USG with a 14% ast.% and KP 24% USG with a 7% ast.%...But I'm sure the latter doesn't concern you one bit..

Look it up...ast.% is usually consistent for a player's career..So don't tell me about being a young player..

You really can't compare KP and Melo in how they are used in the offense. KP is only just beginning to learn how to properly post up and most of his offense is Catch and Shoot. KP holds the ball for less than 2 seconds 69% of his touches. He holds the ball for 6 or more Seconds only 1.5%. Melo holds the ball for 2-6 seconds 43.2% and 6 or more second 14.8%. And guess when Melo is MOST efficient?? When he holds the for for less than 2 seconds!!!

TOUCH TIME RANGE	GP	G	FREQ	FGM	FGA	FG%	EFG%
Touch < 2 Seconds	71	71	42.0%	3.6	7.9	45.9	56.0
Touch 2-6 Seconds	71	70	43.2%	3.3	8.1	41.2	43.4
Touch 6+ Seconds	71	68	14.8%	1.2	2.8	43.7	45.9

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/shots-dash/

Let's not try and twist this so that it makes Melo look better by trashing KP!!! That my friend is BULLSHYTE!!!

STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!! This dude could have done a better job of leading the team by example simply by passing more, holding it less and giving more effort on D. If Melo had done these EASY things no one would be able to blame him for anything. Phil got on him for these very reasons and he was right.

Hey nix, what was Melo's assist percentage during the 54 win 2012-13 season? I already know, but I can't wait to hear your spin.

STRAW MAN ARGUMENT!!! This is not the same situation. Why do you think people came up with the whole DadMelo thing? This team needs Melo to take on that kind of fatherly role. THIS AINT 2012-13!!!

This really gets F'n ridiculous at a certain point. Melo was asked to play more Tean Oriented which actually would be easier for him and preserve his career but he's too F'n stubborn and selfish to stick to that approach. No matter what you guys say IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO!

Nix, don't you worry, I'm going to make a separate thread comparing Melo's assist percentage to team wins throughout his career.

Maybe the problem is someone trying to make Melo an initiator instead of a finisher.

Last year was Melo's career high in assist percentage - did it correlate to a career high in wins?

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:I appreciate Melo as a player and his loyalty to the Knicks. I wish things had worked out better with him here. I thought Melo had turned the corner last year when he was passing at the highest rate of his career. He did not continue in that growth and this is what led Phil to lash out. Let's not forget this key fact!!!

Everyone is free to be angry with Phil for his failures as President but this is also a referendum on Melo. This season might still have been a failure but the Phil v Melo stuff is about MELO not doing the things he should as the highest paid player on the team and a Vet leader. Melo was praised last year for being DadMelo so why did he stop leading?

I can't excuse this and I don't blame Phil for calling Melo out.

It's funny because Melo is pretty much the same player he was when he came to the Knicks. He is an elite scorer. He has been called the toughest cover by his peers in the past. Now because Melo didn't change enough in year 14 of his career he is the bad guy? That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Fourteen years in Melo's faults probably aren't changing much. They weren't changing much twelve years in when Phil gave him the NTC and the huge trade kicker. During the broadcast yesterday MJax and JVG brought up coaching continuity, roster continuity and roster construction. There has been no continuity with the roster and there have been 4 coaches in Phil's 3 plus years. JVG also brought up that he thought roster construction was much better when Woodson was coaching. Grunwald knew Melo's strengths and weaknesses and built a team around them. Phil gave Melo a contract that can't be traded and now is mad because Melo is playing like he has for his entire tenure in the nba. But it's on Melo. If you dont know what type of player Melo is after 12 years you are a fool. If you make that huge commitment and then continue to cobble together rosters that don't compliment Melo and aren't competitive in today's nba you should be let go or reassigned.

Melo needs to move on but Phil's roster construction, coaching hires, trades, and meddling are all on him. Both guys need to go but I believe Phil has his job for as long as he wants it.

Good post crush

I do think melo should have change his game a little to fit in better, just like all these centers in the league are now shooting 3's. I just think that Phil put a bunch of young d leaguers around melo, which was as dumb as it gets, because now your asking a top flight scorer to trust his teammates who have been super inconsistent in every imaginable way.

Melo demonstrated he COULD CHANGE last year when he passed the ball more. His Assist % was 20.9 last year and only 14.1 this year. Melo could EASILY pass the ball more and it has nothing to do with teammates. This is all on Melo. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!!

Why not look at the dynamics of everything..

Last yr Melo ran point fwd for the most part, He had was getting at least 2 assist from lopez, who always rolled to the baskets on PnR, unlike KP who ventures 30 ft from the basket for a low percentage shot. You notice how willy (who roles to the basket) has received pin point passes from melo in a High Pnr.

No one on the bench is shooting above 40%, and no in the starting line is shooting above avg except rose.... so the trust just ain't there, not to mention that one game we will run a lot of PNR, the next will run JH's version of the triangle, and the next game we're full triangle, and this has been going all season long.

Were are only scoring more points this yr, because we are taking more FT's, we have more penetrator's. Other than that the offense still is a ball of confusion every other game..

Man I just can't believe the extent you guys are going to excuse Melo's regression as a leader and on the floor. There has been more than enough opportunity to PASS THE BALL in the flow of the offense by Melo!

This isn't about Melo not trusting his teammates!!! I mean come on!!! He doesn't trust Rose, CLee or KP??? Sure guys miss shots but that is not why Melo stopped passing like he was last year.

The offense is NOT a ball of confusion is you execute but Melo and Rose break the offense!!! There is no excuse for the lack of passing from the 2 players that have the most talent, experience and touches every game. If Melo was purely a Catch and Shoot player I could understand but he holds the ball on most possessions. This draws defensive attention and Melo has multiple options on every play if he chose to explore it.

OK..All this fake outrage to support your anti-Melo rhetoric...We can look at these stats on your level..Melo has a 29% USG with a 14% ast.% and KP 24% USG with a 7% ast.%...But I'm sure the latter doesn't concern you one bit..

Look it up...ast.% is usually consistent for a player's career..So don't tell me about being a young player..

You really can't compare KP and Melo in how they are used in the offense. KP is only just beginning to learn how to properly post up and most of his offense is Catch and Shoot. KP holds the ball for less than 2 seconds 69% of his touches. He holds the ball for 6 or more Seconds only 1.5%. Melo holds the ball for 2-6 seconds 43.2% and 6 or more second 14.8%. And guess when Melo is MOST efficient?? When he holds the for for less than 2 seconds!!!

TOUCH TIME RANGE	GP	G	FREQ	FGM	FGA	FG%	EFG%
Touch < 2 Seconds	71	71	42.0%	3.6	7.9	45.9	56.0
Touch 2-6 Seconds	71	70	43.2%	3.3	8.1	41.2	43.4
Touch 6+ Seconds	71	68	14.8%	1.2	2.8	43.7	45.9

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/shots-dash/

Let's not try and twist this so that it makes Melo look better by trashing KP!!! That my friend is BULLSHYTE!!!

STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!! This dude could have done a better job of leading the team by example simply by passing more, holding it less and giving more effort on D. If Melo had done these EASY things no one would be able to blame him for anything. Phil got on him for these very reasons and he was right.

Hey nix, what was Melo's assist percentage during the 54 win 2012-13 season? I already know, but I can't wait to hear your spin.

STRAW MAN ARGUMENT!!! This is not the same situation. Why do you think people came up with the whole DadMelo thing? This team needs Melo to take on that kind of fatherly role. THIS AINT 2012-13!!!

This really gets F'n ridiculous at a certain point. Melo was asked to play more Tean Oriented which actually would be easier for him and preserve his career but he's too F'n stubborn and selfish to stick to that approach. No matter what you guys say IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO!

Once a chucker....

Look I actually would love for Melo to be Olympic Melo or DadMelo cuz that is his best ball. Instead this year he's holding the ball too much on 58% of his touches. It's not with good purpose cuz he's not making plays for others. He's just freaking stopping the offense. At a certain point you have to acknowledge that your team's best players are not playing winning basketball. Melo and Rose both play a selfish style of ball and it has an impact.

We finally could build a team full of players that buy into playing team ball and that is all we're asking. When we add better Frontline Talent that can play unselfish 2 way basketball then we'll see sustained winning.

You know what Olympic Melo's assist percentage was? It was pretty low, because he was playing with playmakers and was able to focus on what he does best - finishing.

Phil has had three years - how many players would you say are worth keeping and buy into team ball? Are you counting Sasha?

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:I appreciate Melo as a player and his loyalty to the Knicks. I wish things had worked out better with him here. I thought Melo had turned the corner last year when he was passing at the highest rate of his career. He did not continue in that growth and this is what led Phil to lash out. Let's not forget this key fact!!!

Everyone is free to be angry with Phil for his failures as President but this is also a referendum on Melo. This season might still have been a failure but the Phil v Melo stuff is about MELO not doing the things he should as the highest paid player on the team and a Vet leader. Melo was praised last year for being DadMelo so why did he stop leading?

I can't excuse this and I don't blame Phil for calling Melo out.

It's funny because Melo is pretty much the same player he was when he came to the Knicks. He is an elite scorer. He has been called the toughest cover by his peers in the past. Now because Melo didn't change enough in year 14 of his career he is the bad guy? That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Fourteen years in Melo's faults probably aren't changing much. They weren't changing much twelve years in when Phil gave him the NTC and the huge trade kicker. During the broadcast yesterday MJax and JVG brought up coaching continuity, roster continuity and roster construction. There has been no continuity with the roster and there have been 4 coaches in Phil's 3 plus years. JVG also brought up that he thought roster construction was much better when Woodson was coaching. Grunwald knew Melo's strengths and weaknesses and built a team around them. Phil gave Melo a contract that can't be traded and now is mad because Melo is playing like he has for his entire tenure in the nba. But it's on Melo. If you dont know what type of player Melo is after 12 years you are a fool. If you make that huge commitment and then continue to cobble together rosters that don't compliment Melo and aren't competitive in today's nba you should be let go or reassigned.

Melo needs to move on but Phil's roster construction, coaching hires, trades, and meddling are all on him. Both guys need to go but I believe Phil has his job for as long as he wants it.

Good post crush

I do think melo should have change his game a little to fit in better, just like all these centers in the league are now shooting 3's. I just think that Phil put a bunch of young d leaguers around melo, which was as dumb as it gets, because now your asking a top flight scorer to trust his teammates who have been super inconsistent in every imaginable way.

Melo demonstrated he COULD CHANGE last year when he passed the ball more. His Assist % was 20.9 last year and only 14.1 this year. Melo could EASILY pass the ball more and it has nothing to do with teammates. This is all on Melo. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!!

Why not look at the dynamics of everything..

Last yr Melo ran point fwd for the most part, He had was getting at least 2 assist from lopez, who always rolled to the baskets on PnR, unlike KP who ventures 30 ft from the basket for a low percentage shot. You notice how willy (who roles to the basket) has received pin point passes from melo in a High Pnr.

No one on the bench is shooting above 40%, and no in the starting line is shooting above avg except rose.... so the trust just ain't there, not to mention that one game we will run a lot of PNR, the next will run JH's version of the triangle, and the next game we're full triangle, and this has been going all season long.

Were are only scoring more points this yr, because we are taking more FT's, we have more penetrator's. Other than that the offense still is a ball of confusion every other game..

Man I just can't believe the extent you guys are going to excuse Melo's regression as a leader and on the floor. There has been more than enough opportunity to PASS THE BALL in the flow of the offense by Melo!

This isn't about Melo not trusting his teammates!!! I mean come on!!! He doesn't trust Rose, CLee or KP??? Sure guys miss shots but that is not why Melo stopped passing like he was last year.

The offense is NOT a ball of confusion is you execute but Melo and Rose break the offense!!! There is no excuse for the lack of passing from the 2 players that have the most talent, experience and touches every game. If Melo was purely a Catch and Shoot player I could understand but he holds the ball on most possessions. This draws defensive attention and Melo has multiple options on every play if he chose to explore it.

OK..All this fake outrage to support your anti-Melo rhetoric...We can look at these stats on your level..Melo has a 29% USG with a 14% ast.% and KP 24% USG with a 7% ast.%...But I'm sure the latter doesn't concern you one bit..

Look it up...ast.% is usually consistent for a player's career..So don't tell me about being a young player..

You really can't compare KP and Melo in how they are used in the offense. KP is only just beginning to learn how to properly post up and most of his offense is Catch and Shoot. KP holds the ball for less than 2 seconds 69% of his touches. He holds the ball for 6 or more Seconds only 1.5%. Melo holds the ball for 2-6 seconds 43.2% and 6 or more second 14.8%. And guess when Melo is MOST efficient?? When he holds the for for less than 2 seconds!!!

TOUCH TIME RANGE	GP	G	FREQ	FGM	FGA	FG%	EFG%
Touch < 2 Seconds	71	71	42.0%	3.6	7.9	45.9	56.0
Touch 2-6 Seconds	71	70	43.2%	3.3	8.1	41.2	43.4
Touch 6+ Seconds	71	68	14.8%	1.2	2.8	43.7	45.9

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/shots-dash/

Let's not try and twist this so that it makes Melo look better by trashing KP!!! That my friend is BULLSHYTE!!!

STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!! This dude could have done a better job of leading the team by example simply by passing more, holding it less and giving more effort on D. If Melo had done these EASY things no one would be able to blame him for anything. Phil got on him for these very reasons and he was right.

Hey nix, what was Melo's assist percentage during the 54 win 2012-13 season? I already know, but I can't wait to hear your spin.

STRAW MAN ARGUMENT!!! This is not the same situation. Why do you think people came up with the whole DadMelo thing? This team needs Melo to take on that kind of fatherly role. THIS AINT 2012-13!!!

This really gets F'n ridiculous at a certain point. Melo was asked to play more Tean Oriented which actually would be easier for him and preserve his career but he's too F'n stubborn and selfish to stick to that approach. No matter what you guys say IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO!

Nix, don't you worry, I'm going to make a separate thread comparing Melo's assist percentage to team wins throughout his career.

Maybe the problem is someone trying to make Melo an initiator instead of a finisher.

Last year was Melo's career high in assist percentage - did it correlate to a career high in wins?

You're oversimplifying the argument. No one is saying that Melo magically fixes everything that's wrong with the team if he buys in and moves the ball. We're saying that it's the RIGHT WAY TO PLAY and if he stuck to that a better culture could develop as the young players get used to that and everyone gets on the same page playing unselfish.

You see you can't envision the long term effects cuz we've never seen it all the way through to it's conclusion. We now have a lot of young players and soon to be more. They need to be shown the right way to play and if you have a Star of the team that they look up to who is holding the ball too much then it sets the wrong example. You can save yourself the time and not create that thread cuz it's really not worth arguing over. You've lost sight of what really matters in all of this arguing. TEAM BALL. We don't give a FLIP about ISO Melo. We want to eventually become a Title Contender. You can live in the past of Melo former glory. We're moving on.

Oh don't worry, I'm making it.

And you've been arguing since you read that Phil Jackson quote that the reason we're not winning is Melo not moving the ball.

You know what his second highest assist percentage year was? The Jeremt Lin year, when everyone wanted to run melo out of town for not passing enough.

Maybe the issue is that Melo has been stuck playing in NY for dogmatic old men who would rather prove a point and lose, than win with what works best for their roster.

You know another reason that the 2012-3 Knicks were good in spite of Melo's assist percentage? Because the rest of the roster wasn't a dumpster fire.

Hey if Phil needs to trade Melo to learn how to make non dumpster fire rosters, so be it. I'll be sure to keep tabs on how he does.

TPercy wrote:On a side note. I was going through synergy stats on Nba.com and guess who is 3rd in the league in isolation possession???

Kobe Bryant in 2009?

No, no wait - Michael Jordan in 1997!

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:I appreciate Melo as a player and his loyalty to the Knicks. I wish things had worked out better with him here. I thought Melo had turned the corner last year when he was passing at the highest rate of his career. He did not continue in that growth and this is what led Phil to lash out. Let's not forget this key fact!!!

Everyone is free to be angry with Phil for his failures as President but this is also a referendum on Melo. This season might still have been a failure but the Phil v Melo stuff is about MELO not doing the things he should as the highest paid player on the team and a Vet leader. Melo was praised last year for being DadMelo so why did he stop leading?

I can't excuse this and I don't blame Phil for calling Melo out.

It's funny because Melo is pretty much the same player he was when he came to the Knicks. He is an elite scorer. He has been called the toughest cover by his peers in the past. Now because Melo didn't change enough in year 14 of his career he is the bad guy? That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Fourteen years in Melo's faults probably aren't changing much. They weren't changing much twelve years in when Phil gave him the NTC and the huge trade kicker. During the broadcast yesterday MJax and JVG brought up coaching continuity, roster continuity and roster construction. There has been no continuity with the roster and there have been 4 coaches in Phil's 3 plus years. JVG also brought up that he thought roster construction was much better when Woodson was coaching. Grunwald knew Melo's strengths and weaknesses and built a team around them. Phil gave Melo a contract that can't be traded and now is mad because Melo is playing like he has for his entire tenure in the nba. But it's on Melo. If you dont know what type of player Melo is after 12 years you are a fool. If you make that huge commitment and then continue to cobble together rosters that don't compliment Melo and aren't competitive in today's nba you should be let go or reassigned.

Melo needs to move on but Phil's roster construction, coaching hires, trades, and meddling are all on him. Both guys need to go but I believe Phil has his job for as long as he wants it.

Good post crush

I do think melo should have change his game a little to fit in better, just like all these centers in the league are now shooting 3's. I just think that Phil put a bunch of young d leaguers around melo, which was as dumb as it gets, because now your asking a top flight scorer to trust his teammates who have been super inconsistent in every imaginable way.

Melo demonstrated he COULD CHANGE last year when he passed the ball more. His Assist % was 20.9 last year and only 14.1 this year. Melo could EASILY pass the ball more and it has nothing to do with teammates. This is all on Melo. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!!

Why not look at the dynamics of everything..

Last yr Melo ran point fwd for the most part, He had was getting at least 2 assist from lopez, who always rolled to the baskets on PnR, unlike KP who ventures 30 ft from the basket for a low percentage shot. You notice how willy (who roles to the basket) has received pin point passes from melo in a High Pnr.

No one on the bench is shooting above 40%, and no in the starting line is shooting above avg except rose.... so the trust just ain't there, not to mention that one game we will run a lot of PNR, the next will run JH's version of the triangle, and the next game we're full triangle, and this has been going all season long.

Were are only scoring more points this yr, because we are taking more FT's, we have more penetrator's. Other than that the offense still is a ball of confusion every other game..

Man I just can't believe the extent you guys are going to excuse Melo's regression as a leader and on the floor. There has been more than enough opportunity to PASS THE BALL in the flow of the offense by Melo!

This isn't about Melo not trusting his teammates!!! I mean come on!!! He doesn't trust Rose, CLee or KP??? Sure guys miss shots but that is not why Melo stopped passing like he was last year.

The offense is NOT a ball of confusion is you execute but Melo and Rose break the offense!!! There is no excuse for the lack of passing from the 2 players that have the most talent, experience and touches every game. If Melo was purely a Catch and Shoot player I could understand but he holds the ball on most possessions. This draws defensive attention and Melo has multiple options on every play if he chose to explore it.

OK..All this fake outrage to support your anti-Melo rhetoric...We can look at these stats on your level..Melo has a 29% USG with a 14% ast.% and KP 24% USG with a 7% ast.%...But I'm sure the latter doesn't concern you one bit..

Look it up...ast.% is usually consistent for a player's career..So don't tell me about being a young player..

You really can't compare KP and Melo in how they are used in the offense. KP is only just beginning to learn how to properly post up and most of his offense is Catch and Shoot. KP holds the ball for less than 2 seconds 69% of his touches. He holds the ball for 6 or more Seconds only 1.5%. Melo holds the ball for 2-6 seconds 43.2% and 6 or more second 14.8%. And guess when Melo is MOST efficient?? When he holds the for for less than 2 seconds!!!

TOUCH TIME RANGE	GP	G	FREQ	FGM	FGA	FG%	EFG%
Touch < 2 Seconds	71	71	42.0%	3.6	7.9	45.9	56.0
Touch 2-6 Seconds	71	70	43.2%	3.3	8.1	41.2	43.4
Touch 6+ Seconds	71	68	14.8%	1.2	2.8	43.7	45.9

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/shots-dash/

Let's not try and twist this so that it makes Melo look better by trashing KP!!! That my friend is BULLSHYTE!!!

STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!! This dude could have done a better job of leading the team by example simply by passing more, holding it less and giving more effort on D. If Melo had done these EASY things no one would be able to blame him for anything. Phil got on him for these very reasons and he was right.

Hey nix, what was Melo's assist percentage during the 54 win 2012-13 season? I already know, but I can't wait to hear your spin.

STRAW MAN ARGUMENT!!! This is not the same situation. Why do you think people came up with the whole DadMelo thing? This team needs Melo to take on that kind of fatherly role. THIS AINT 2012-13!!!

This really gets F'n ridiculous at a certain point. Melo was asked to play more Tean Oriented which actually would be easier for him and preserve his career but he's too F'n stubborn and selfish to stick to that approach. No matter what you guys say IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO!

Nix, don't you worry, I'm going to make a separate thread comparing Melo's assist percentage to team wins throughout his career.

Maybe the problem is someone trying to make Melo an initiator instead of a finisher.

Last year was Melo's career high in assist percentage - did it correlate to a career high in wins?

You're oversimplifying the argument. No one is saying that Melo magically fixes everything that's wrong with the team if he buys in and moves the ball. We're saying that it's the RIGHT WAY TO PLAY and if he stuck to that a better culture could develop as the young players get used to that and everyone gets on the same page playing unselfish.

You see you can't envision the long term effects cuz we've never seen it all the way through to it's conclusion. We now have a lot of young players and soon to be more. They need to be shown the right way to play and if you have a Star of the team that they look up to who is holding the ball too much then it sets the wrong example. You can save yourself the time and not create that thread cuz it's really not worth arguing over. You've lost sight of what really matters in all of this arguing. TEAM BALL. We don't give a FLIP about ISO Melo. We want to eventually become a Title Contender. You can live in the past of Melo former glory. We're moving on.

Oh don't worry, I'm making it.

And you've been arguing since you read that Phil Jackson quote that the reason we're not winning is Melo not moving the ball.

You know what his second highest assist percentage year was? The Jeremt Lin year, when everyone wanted to run melo out of town for not passing enough.

Maybe the issue is that Melo has been stuck playing in NY for dogmatic old men who would rather prove a point and lose, than win with what works best for their roster.

You know another reason that the 2012-3 Knicks were good in spite of Melo's assist percentage? Because the rest of the roster wasn't a dumpster fire.

Hey if Phil needs to trade Melo to learn how to make non dumpster fire rosters, so be it. I'll be sure to keep tabs on how he does.

We ALL watched the 54 win team. This is not about that unsustainable roster.

The point isn't just Melo not passing but Rose also not passing and both being bad on D on top of that. Both are also not strong 4th qtr performers for this team. We lost 16 or more games of 5 or less points. Don't tell me this might not have been so bad if Melo and Rose in particular had bought in to TEAM BALL and gave max effort on D!

Phil wasn't successful in turning this team around quickly but he also never completely sold out the future just to try win short term. Melo refused to buy in and so I think he should go and let this team move on and build a real TEAM.

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:I appreciate Melo as a player and his loyalty to the Knicks. I wish things had worked out better with him here. I thought Melo had turned the corner last year when he was passing at the highest rate of his career. He did not continue in that growth and this is what led Phil to lash out. Let's not forget this key fact!!!

Everyone is free to be angry with Phil for his failures as President but this is also a referendum on Melo. This season might still have been a failure but the Phil v Melo stuff is about MELO not doing the things he should as the highest paid player on the team and a Vet leader. Melo was praised last year for being DadMelo so why did he stop leading?

I can't excuse this and I don't blame Phil for calling Melo out.

It's funny because Melo is pretty much the same player he was when he came to the Knicks. He is an elite scorer. He has been called the toughest cover by his peers in the past. Now because Melo didn't change enough in year 14 of his career he is the bad guy? That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Fourteen years in Melo's faults probably aren't changing much. They weren't changing much twelve years in when Phil gave him the NTC and the huge trade kicker. During the broadcast yesterday MJax and JVG brought up coaching continuity, roster continuity and roster construction. There has been no continuity with the roster and there have been 4 coaches in Phil's 3 plus years. JVG also brought up that he thought roster construction was much better when Woodson was coaching. Grunwald knew Melo's strengths and weaknesses and built a team around them. Phil gave Melo a contract that can't be traded and now is mad because Melo is playing like he has for his entire tenure in the nba. But it's on Melo. If you dont know what type of player Melo is after 12 years you are a fool. If you make that huge commitment and then continue to cobble together rosters that don't compliment Melo and aren't competitive in today's nba you should be let go or reassigned.

Melo needs to move on but Phil's roster construction, coaching hires, trades, and meddling are all on him. Both guys need to go but I believe Phil has his job for as long as he wants it.

Good post crush

I do think melo should have change his game a little to fit in better, just like all these centers in the league are now shooting 3's. I just think that Phil put a bunch of young d leaguers around melo, which was as dumb as it gets, because now your asking a top flight scorer to trust his teammates who have been super inconsistent in every imaginable way.

Melo demonstrated he COULD CHANGE last year when he passed the ball more. His Assist % was 20.9 last year and only 14.1 this year. Melo could EASILY pass the ball more and it has nothing to do with teammates. This is all on Melo. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!!

Why not look at the dynamics of everything..

Last yr Melo ran point fwd for the most part, He had was getting at least 2 assist from lopez, who always rolled to the baskets on PnR, unlike KP who ventures 30 ft from the basket for a low percentage shot. You notice how willy (who roles to the basket) has received pin point passes from melo in a High Pnr.

No one on the bench is shooting above 40%, and no in the starting line is shooting above avg except rose.... so the trust just ain't there, not to mention that one game we will run a lot of PNR, the next will run JH's version of the triangle, and the next game we're full triangle, and this has been going all season long.

Were are only scoring more points this yr, because we are taking more FT's, we have more penetrator's. Other than that the offense still is a ball of confusion every other game..

Man I just can't believe the extent you guys are going to excuse Melo's regression as a leader and on the floor. There has been more than enough opportunity to PASS THE BALL in the flow of the offense by Melo!

This isn't about Melo not trusting his teammates!!! I mean come on!!! He doesn't trust Rose, CLee or KP??? Sure guys miss shots but that is not why Melo stopped passing like he was last year.

The offense is NOT a ball of confusion is you execute but Melo and Rose break the offense!!! There is no excuse for the lack of passing from the 2 players that have the most talent, experience and touches every game. If Melo was purely a Catch and Shoot player I could understand but he holds the ball on most possessions. This draws defensive attention and Melo has multiple options on every play if he chose to explore it.

OK..All this fake outrage to support your anti-Melo rhetoric...We can look at these stats on your level..Melo has a 29% USG with a 14% ast.% and KP 24% USG with a 7% ast.%...But I'm sure the latter doesn't concern you one bit..

Look it up...ast.% is usually consistent for a player's career..So don't tell me about being a young player..

You really can't compare KP and Melo in how they are used in the offense. KP is only just beginning to learn how to properly post up and most of his offense is Catch and Shoot. KP holds the ball for less than 2 seconds 69% of his touches. He holds the ball for 6 or more Seconds only 1.5%. Melo holds the ball for 2-6 seconds 43.2% and 6 or more second 14.8%. And guess when Melo is MOST efficient?? When he holds the for for less than 2 seconds!!!

TOUCH TIME RANGE	GP	G	FREQ	FGM	FGA	FG%	EFG%
Touch < 2 Seconds	71	71	42.0%	3.6	7.9	45.9	56.0
Touch 2-6 Seconds	71	70	43.2%	3.3	8.1	41.2	43.4
Touch 6+ Seconds	71	68	14.8%	1.2	2.8	43.7	45.9

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/shots-dash/

Let's not try and twist this so that it makes Melo look better by trashing KP!!! That my friend is BULLSHYTE!!!

STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!! This dude could have done a better job of leading the team by example simply by passing more, holding it less and giving more effort on D. If Melo had done these EASY things no one would be able to blame him for anything. Phil got on him for these very reasons and he was right.

Hey nix, what was Melo's assist percentage during the 54 win 2012-13 season? I already know, but I can't wait to hear your spin.

STRAW MAN ARGUMENT!!! This is not the same situation. Why do you think people came up with the whole DadMelo thing? This team needs Melo to take on that kind of fatherly role. THIS AINT 2012-13!!!

This really gets F'n ridiculous at a certain point. Melo was asked to play more Tean Oriented which actually would be easier for him and preserve his career but he's too F'n stubborn and selfish to stick to that approach. No matter what you guys say IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO!

Nix, don't you worry, I'm going to make a separate thread comparing Melo's assist percentage to team wins throughout his career.

Maybe the problem is someone trying to make Melo an initiator instead of a finisher.

Last year was Melo's career high in assist percentage - did it correlate to a career high in wins?

You're oversimplifying the argument. No one is saying that Melo magically fixes everything that's wrong with the team if he buys in and moves the ball. We're saying that it's the RIGHT WAY TO PLAY and if he stuck to that a better culture could develop as the young players get used to that and everyone gets on the same page playing unselfish.

You see you can't envision the long term effects cuz we've never seen it all the way through to it's conclusion. We now have a lot of young players and soon to be more. They need to be shown the right way to play and if you have a Star of the team that they look up to who is holding the ball too much then it sets the wrong example. You can save yourself the time and not create that thread cuz it's really not worth arguing over. You've lost sight of what really matters in all of this arguing. TEAM BALL. We don't give a FLIP about ISO Melo. We want to eventually become a Title Contender. You can live in the past of Melo former glory. We're moving on.

Oh don't worry, I'm making it.

And you've been arguing since you read that Phil Jackson quote that the reason we're not winning is Melo not moving the ball.

You know what his second highest assist percentage year was? The Jeremt Lin year, when everyone wanted to run melo out of town for not passing enough.

Maybe the issue is that Melo has been stuck playing in NY for dogmatic old men who would rather prove a point and lose, than win with what works best for their roster.

You know another reason that the 2012-3 Knicks were good in spite of Melo's assist percentage? Because the rest of the roster wasn't a dumpster fire.

Hey if Phil needs to trade Melo to learn how to make non dumpster fire rosters, so be it. I'll be sure to keep tabs on how he does.

We ALL watched the 54 win team. This is not about that unsustainable roster.

The point isn't just Melo not passing but Rose also not passing and both being bad on D on top of that. Both are also not strong 4th qtr performers for this team. We lost 16 or more games of 5 or less points. Don't tell me this might not have been so bad if Melo and Rose in particular had bought in to TEAM BALL and gave max effort on D!

Phil wasn't successful in turning this team around quickly but he also never completely sold out the future just to try win short term. Melo refused to buy in and so I think he should go and let this team move on and build a real TEAM.

Buy into what? Hornacek's system didn't put Melo at the point forward, that's why his assists were done. Noah didn't score at the percentage Rolo did, that's why Melo's assists were down. Rose held the ball longer than Calderon and wasn't available for kick out threes, that's why Melo's assists were down. Are you telling me you really don't see these things on the court? You really just see the mess this roster is and your honest best guess to figure it out is that Melo and Rose don't want to win badly enough? Do Melo and Rose seem particularly happy about this season?

How does Melo and Rose's effort on defense have anything to do with the obvious structural issues this team has on D - as evidenced by how Boston picked the Knicks D apart last night?

Btw, speaking of Boston, how did Rose and Melo march into Boston without KP in January and win concincingly?

http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400900051

Did they decide to buy in for one night? Maybe KP's defense is a bigger problem than you understand.

And meanwhile, Shumpert and JR have been in the finals two years in a row, with a good shot to get there a third time. How was their play not sustainable? Maybe forcing them into the triangle wasn't sustainable.

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:I appreciate Melo as a player and his loyalty to the Knicks. I wish things had worked out better with him here. I thought Melo had turned the corner last year when he was passing at the highest rate of his career. He did not continue in that growth and this is what led Phil to lash out. Let's not forget this key fact!!!

Everyone is free to be angry with Phil for his failures as President but this is also a referendum on Melo. This season might still have been a failure but the Phil v Melo stuff is about MELO not doing the things he should as the highest paid player on the team and a Vet leader. Melo was praised last year for being DadMelo so why did he stop leading?

I can't excuse this and I don't blame Phil for calling Melo out.

It's funny because Melo is pretty much the same player he was when he came to the Knicks. He is an elite scorer. He has been called the toughest cover by his peers in the past. Now because Melo didn't change enough in year 14 of his career he is the bad guy? That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Fourteen years in Melo's faults probably aren't changing much. They weren't changing much twelve years in when Phil gave him the NTC and the huge trade kicker. During the broadcast yesterday MJax and JVG brought up coaching continuity, roster continuity and roster construction. There has been no continuity with the roster and there have been 4 coaches in Phil's 3 plus years. JVG also brought up that he thought roster construction was much better when Woodson was coaching. Grunwald knew Melo's strengths and weaknesses and built a team around them. Phil gave Melo a contract that can't be traded and now is mad because Melo is playing like he has for his entire tenure in the nba. But it's on Melo. If you dont know what type of player Melo is after 12 years you are a fool. If you make that huge commitment and then continue to cobble together rosters that don't compliment Melo and aren't competitive in today's nba you should be let go or reassigned.

Melo needs to move on but Phil's roster construction, coaching hires, trades, and meddling are all on him. Both guys need to go but I believe Phil has his job for as long as he wants it.

Good post crush

I do think melo should have change his game a little to fit in better, just like all these centers in the league are now shooting 3's. I just think that Phil put a bunch of young d leaguers around melo, which was as dumb as it gets, because now your asking a top flight scorer to trust his teammates who have been super inconsistent in every imaginable way.

Melo demonstrated he COULD CHANGE last year when he passed the ball more. His Assist % was 20.9 last year and only 14.1 this year. Melo could EASILY pass the ball more and it has nothing to do with teammates. This is all on Melo. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!!

Why not look at the dynamics of everything..

Last yr Melo ran point fwd for the most part, He had was getting at least 2 assist from lopez, who always rolled to the baskets on PnR, unlike KP who ventures 30 ft from the basket for a low percentage shot. You notice how willy (who roles to the basket) has received pin point passes from melo in a High Pnr.

No one on the bench is shooting above 40%, and no in the starting line is shooting above avg except rose.... so the trust just ain't there, not to mention that one game we will run a lot of PNR, the next will run JH's version of the triangle, and the next game we're full triangle, and this has been going all season long.

Were are only scoring more points this yr, because we are taking more FT's, we have more penetrator's. Other than that the offense still is a ball of confusion every other game..

Man I just can't believe the extent you guys are going to excuse Melo's regression as a leader and on the floor. There has been more than enough opportunity to PASS THE BALL in the flow of the offense by Melo!

This isn't about Melo not trusting his teammates!!! I mean come on!!! He doesn't trust Rose, CLee or KP??? Sure guys miss shots but that is not why Melo stopped passing like he was last year.

The offense is NOT a ball of confusion is you execute but Melo and Rose break the offense!!! There is no excuse for the lack of passing from the 2 players that have the most talent, experience and touches every game. If Melo was purely a Catch and Shoot player I could understand but he holds the ball on most possessions. This draws defensive attention and Melo has multiple options on every play if he chose to explore it.

OK..All this fake outrage to support your anti-Melo rhetoric...We can look at these stats on your level..Melo has a 29% USG with a 14% ast.% and KP 24% USG with a 7% ast.%...But I'm sure the latter doesn't concern you one bit..

Look it up...ast.% is usually consistent for a player's career..So don't tell me about being a young player..

You really can't compare KP and Melo in how they are used in the offense. KP is only just beginning to learn how to properly post up and most of his offense is Catch and Shoot. KP holds the ball for less than 2 seconds 69% of his touches. He holds the ball for 6 or more Seconds only 1.5%. Melo holds the ball for 2-6 seconds 43.2% and 6 or more second 14.8%. And guess when Melo is MOST efficient?? When he holds the for for less than 2 seconds!!!

TOUCH TIME RANGE	GP	G	FREQ	FGM	FGA	FG%	EFG%
Touch < 2 Seconds	71	71	42.0%	3.6	7.9	45.9	56.0
Touch 2-6 Seconds	71	70	43.2%	3.3	8.1	41.2	43.4
Touch 6+ Seconds	71	68	14.8%	1.2	2.8	43.7	45.9

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/shots-dash/

Let's not try and twist this so that it makes Melo look better by trashing KP!!! That my friend is BULLSHYTE!!!

STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!! This dude could have done a better job of leading the team by example simply by passing more, holding it less and giving more effort on D. If Melo had done these EASY things no one would be able to blame him for anything. Phil got on him for these very reasons and he was right.

Hey nix, what was Melo's assist percentage during the 54 win 2012-13 season? I already know, but I can't wait to hear your spin.

STRAW MAN ARGUMENT!!! This is not the same situation. Why do you think people came up with the whole DadMelo thing? This team needs Melo to take on that kind of fatherly role. THIS AINT 2012-13!!!

This really gets F'n ridiculous at a certain point. Melo was asked to play more Tean Oriented which actually would be easier for him and preserve his career but he's too F'n stubborn and selfish to stick to that approach. No matter what you guys say IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO!

Nix, don't you worry, I'm going to make a separate thread comparing Melo's assist percentage to team wins throughout his career.

Maybe the problem is someone trying to make Melo an initiator instead of a finisher.

Last year was Melo's career high in assist percentage - did it correlate to a career high in wins?

You're oversimplifying the argument. No one is saying that Melo magically fixes everything that's wrong with the team if he buys in and moves the ball. We're saying that it's the RIGHT WAY TO PLAY and if he stuck to that a better culture could develop as the young players get used to that and everyone gets on the same page playing unselfish.

You see you can't envision the long term effects cuz we've never seen it all the way through to it's conclusion. We now have a lot of young players and soon to be more. They need to be shown the right way to play and if you have a Star of the team that they look up to who is holding the ball too much then it sets the wrong example. You can save yourself the time and not create that thread cuz it's really not worth arguing over. You've lost sight of what really matters in all of this arguing. TEAM BALL. We don't give a FLIP about ISO Melo. We want to eventually become a Title Contender. You can live in the past of Melo former glory. We're moving on.

Oh don't worry, I'm making it.

And you've been arguing since you read that Phil Jackson quote that the reason we're not winning is Melo not moving the ball.

You know what his second highest assist percentage year was? The Jeremt Lin year, when everyone wanted to run melo out of town for not passing enough.

Maybe the issue is that Melo has been stuck playing in NY for dogmatic old men who would rather prove a point and lose, than win with what works best for their roster.

You know another reason that the 2012-3 Knicks were good in spite of Melo's assist percentage? Because the rest of the roster wasn't a dumpster fire.

Hey if Phil needs to trade Melo to learn how to make non dumpster fire rosters, so be it. I'll be sure to keep tabs on how he does.

We ALL watched the 54 win team. This is not about that unsustainable roster.

The point isn't just Melo not passing but Rose also not passing and both being bad on D on top of that. Both are also not strong 4th qtr performers for this team. We lost 16 or more games of 5 or less points. Don't tell me this might not have been so bad if Melo and Rose in particular had bought in to TEAM BALL and gave max effort on D!

Phil wasn't successful in turning this team around quickly but he also never completely sold out the future just to try win short term. Melo refused to buy in and so I think he should go and let this team move on and build a real TEAM.

Buy into what? Hornacek's system didn't put Melo at the point forward, that's why his assists were done. Noah didn't score at the percentage Rolo did, that's why Melo's assists were down. Rose held the ball longer than Calderon and wasn't available for kick out threes, that's why Melo's assists were down. Are you telling me you really don't see these things on the court? You really just see the mess this roster is and your honest best guess to figure it out is that Melo and Rose don't want to win badly enough? Do Melo and Rose seem particularly happy about this season?

How does Melo and Rose's effort on defense have anything to do with the obvious structural issues this team has on D - as evidenced by how Boston picked the Knicks D apart last night?

Btw, speaking of Boston, how did Rose and Melo march into Boston without KP in January and win concincingly?

http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400900051

Did they decide to buy in for one night? Maybe KP's defense is a bigger problem than you understand.

And meanwhile, Shumpert and JR have been in the finals two years in a row, with a good shot to get there a third time. How was their play not sustainable? Maybe forcing them into the triangle wasn't sustainable.

There's a right way to play and a wrong way. No matter what you say it can't excuse Melo stopping the ball and not giving effort on D. It's not like Melo hasn't been told this the last 3 years. Melo still gets the same touches and shots but he's less of a Team Player this year.

Why do you insist on bringing up KP as if he's on the same level as Melo and Rose in terms of where they are in their careers? By now Melo should have adjusted his mentality to being more of a leader and teacher. More of a facilitator who makes things easier for his younger teammates. Show them how it's done. Win or Lose everyone would praise Melo for doing that but that isn't what he did this year.

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:I appreciate Melo as a player and his loyalty to the Knicks. I wish things had worked out better with him here. I thought Melo had turned the corner last year when he was passing at the highest rate of his career. He did not continue in that growth and this is what led Phil to lash out. Let's not forget this key fact!!!

Everyone is free to be angry with Phil for his failures as President but this is also a referendum on Melo. This season might still have been a failure but the Phil v Melo stuff is about MELO not doing the things he should as the highest paid player on the team and a Vet leader. Melo was praised last year for being DadMelo so why did he stop leading?

I can't excuse this and I don't blame Phil for calling Melo out.

It's funny because Melo is pretty much the same player he was when he came to the Knicks. He is an elite scorer. He has been called the toughest cover by his peers in the past. Now because Melo didn't change enough in year 14 of his career he is the bad guy? That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Fourteen years in Melo's faults probably aren't changing much. They weren't changing much twelve years in when Phil gave him the NTC and the huge trade kicker. During the broadcast yesterday MJax and JVG brought up coaching continuity, roster continuity and roster construction. There has been no continuity with the roster and there have been 4 coaches in Phil's 3 plus years. JVG also brought up that he thought roster construction was much better when Woodson was coaching. Grunwald knew Melo's strengths and weaknesses and built a team around them. Phil gave Melo a contract that can't be traded and now is mad because Melo is playing like he has for his entire tenure in the nba. But it's on Melo. If you dont know what type of player Melo is after 12 years you are a fool. If you make that huge commitment and then continue to cobble together rosters that don't compliment Melo and aren't competitive in today's nba you should be let go or reassigned.

Melo needs to move on but Phil's roster construction, coaching hires, trades, and meddling are all on him. Both guys need to go but I believe Phil has his job for as long as he wants it.

Good post crush

I do think melo should have change his game a little to fit in better, just like all these centers in the league are now shooting 3's. I just think that Phil put a bunch of young d leaguers around melo, which was as dumb as it gets, because now your asking a top flight scorer to trust his teammates who have been super inconsistent in every imaginable way.

Melo demonstrated he COULD CHANGE last year when he passed the ball more. His Assist % was 20.9 last year and only 14.1 this year. Melo could EASILY pass the ball more and it has nothing to do with teammates. This is all on Melo. STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!!

Why not look at the dynamics of everything..

Last yr Melo ran point fwd for the most part, He had was getting at least 2 assist from lopez, who always rolled to the baskets on PnR, unlike KP who ventures 30 ft from the basket for a low percentage shot. You notice how willy (who roles to the basket) has received pin point passes from melo in a High Pnr.

No one on the bench is shooting above 40%, and no in the starting line is shooting above avg except rose.... so the trust just ain't there, not to mention that one game we will run a lot of PNR, the next will run JH's version of the triangle, and the next game we're full triangle, and this has been going all season long.

Were are only scoring more points this yr, because we are taking more FT's, we have more penetrator's. Other than that the offense still is a ball of confusion every other game..

Man I just can't believe the extent you guys are going to excuse Melo's regression as a leader and on the floor. There has been more than enough opportunity to PASS THE BALL in the flow of the offense by Melo!

This isn't about Melo not trusting his teammates!!! I mean come on!!! He doesn't trust Rose, CLee or KP??? Sure guys miss shots but that is not why Melo stopped passing like he was last year.

The offense is NOT a ball of confusion is you execute but Melo and Rose break the offense!!! There is no excuse for the lack of passing from the 2 players that have the most talent, experience and touches every game. If Melo was purely a Catch and Shoot player I could understand but he holds the ball on most possessions. This draws defensive attention and Melo has multiple options on every play if he chose to explore it.

OK..All this fake outrage to support your anti-Melo rhetoric...We can look at these stats on your level..Melo has a 29% USG with a 14% ast.% and KP 24% USG with a 7% ast.%...But I'm sure the latter doesn't concern you one bit..

Look it up...ast.% is usually consistent for a player's career..So don't tell me about being a young player..

You really can't compare KP and Melo in how they are used in the offense. KP is only just beginning to learn how to properly post up and most of his offense is Catch and Shoot. KP holds the ball for less than 2 seconds 69% of his touches. He holds the ball for 6 or more Seconds only 1.5%. Melo holds the ball for 2-6 seconds 43.2% and 6 or more second 14.8%. And guess when Melo is MOST efficient?? When he holds the for for less than 2 seconds!!!

TOUCH TIME RANGE	GP	G	FREQ	FGM	FGA	FG%	EFG%
Touch < 2 Seconds	71	71	42.0%	3.6	7.9	45.9	56.0
Touch 2-6 Seconds	71	70	43.2%	3.3	8.1	41.2	43.4
Touch 6+ Seconds	71	68	14.8%	1.2	2.8	43.7	45.9

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/shots-dash/

Let's not try and twist this so that it makes Melo look better by trashing KP!!! That my friend is BULLSHYTE!!!

STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR MELO!!! This dude could have done a better job of leading the team by example simply by passing more, holding it less and giving more effort on D. If Melo had done these EASY things no one would be able to blame him for anything. Phil got on him for these very reasons and he was right.

Hey nix, what was Melo's assist percentage during the 54 win 2012-13 season? I already know, but I can't wait to hear your spin.

STRAW MAN ARGUMENT!!! This is not the same situation. Why do you think people came up with the whole DadMelo thing? This team needs Melo to take on that kind of fatherly role. THIS AINT 2012-13!!!

This really gets F'n ridiculous at a certain point. Melo was asked to play more Tean Oriented which actually would be easier for him and preserve his career but he's too F'n stubborn and selfish to stick to that approach. No matter what you guys say IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO!

Nix, don't you worry, I'm going to make a separate thread comparing Melo's assist percentage to team wins throughout his career.

Maybe the problem is someone trying to make Melo an initiator instead of a finisher.

Last year was Melo's career high in assist percentage - did it correlate to a career high in wins?

You're oversimplifying the argument. No one is saying that Melo magically fixes everything that's wrong with the team if he buys in and moves the ball. We're saying that it's the RIGHT WAY TO PLAY and if he stuck to that a better culture could develop as the young players get used to that and everyone gets on the same page playing unselfish.

You see you can't envision the long term effects cuz we've never seen it all the way through to it's conclusion. We now have a lot of young players and soon to be more. They need to be shown the right way to play and if you have a Star of the team that they look up to who is holding the ball too much then it sets the wrong example. You can save yourself the time and not create that thread cuz it's really not worth arguing over. You've lost sight of what really matters in all of this arguing. TEAM BALL. We don't give a FLIP about ISO Melo. We want to eventually become a Title Contender. You can live in the past of Melo former glory. We're moving on.

Oh don't worry, I'm making it.

And you've been arguing since you read that Phil Jackson quote that the reason we're not winning is Melo not moving the ball.

You know what his second highest assist percentage year was? The Jeremt Lin year, when everyone wanted to run melo out of town for not passing enough.

Maybe the issue is that Melo has been stuck playing in NY for dogmatic old men who would rather prove a point and lose, than win with what works best for their roster.

You know another reason that the 2012-3 Knicks were good in spite of Melo's assist percentage? Because the rest of the roster wasn't a dumpster fire.

Hey if Phil needs to trade Melo to learn how to make non dumpster fire rosters, so be it. I'll be sure to keep tabs on how he does.