martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:For me the analogy of scratching a car you want sell is a poor one. Melo's game does not change because of articles written or tweets made, that's just silly talk. Melo is who Melo is and every player and GM knows this; dude has been in the league for 13 years.

Would Melo's trade value go UP if Phil started saying nice things? No. Rosen article comes out and it's all roses about Melo? Nada.

What I love about this: Melo becomes more frustrated, team is losing. That's a win-win for the long term of the Knicks; better draft position while trying to move Melo.

How does trashing Melo and letting everyone know you don't want him and that you can only trade him to three teams make it easier to trade him? That is honestly the worst negotiation tactic I've ever seen. But I agree it improved their draft position. Though if that was the goal, it seems odd to trade Jerian Grant for a one year rental and sign Noah for 4 years.

None of it make senses and he keeps flip flopping from yr to yr.

Martin the public comments are unnecessary and vindictive, you know it, or your playing niaive...This is a case where the player has all the cards and your mad cause you can't dump him.. phil is not a president, he's a coach trying to be a president, 2 different courses of action.

He runs this franchise like it's something to do to make him still relevant It's like MAGIC JOHNNSON or MJ trying to coach, that ain't for them They can't get most players on thier level, atlest not verbally, they need to be directly invloved (like playing).

Phil could never get melo to convert unless he was the coach, and now he's just going about it the wrong way.

So now every star player or any FA has to think, if I don't play according to phils liking, He's going to throw me under the bus, try and crush my brand or trade me at the first sign of adversity..SORRY NO THANKS

I don't want to put words in your mouth but you must think Melo is the biggest ***** in the NBA. Vindictive? Phil has said some very complimentary things of Melo while also saying he holds the ball too long (everyone in the league and his mama knows this. Every ballboy knows this, so nothing new). Phil also says Melo is one of the best scorers in the league but needs to be more of a team player. He's giving an honest opinion that pretty much EVERYONE has of Melo... and people think that is vindictive? If that is all it takes to throw a player off his game, the so-called leader of the Knicks, I don't want him on the team and he doesn't deserve to be here if he can't take that vindictive type of heat. I want the Knicks to win. Jordan and Kobe and Shaq took much much worse and ate it up and spit it back out and then WON GAMES.

Phil should expect Melo to play every freaking game at 100% at both ends of the floor. And when he isn't getting calls, I'd expect him to hustle his ass off and get back on D and make sure the team is shutting down the opponent and then show why he is the best scorer in the league. And do it every ****ing night.

I think Phil is going easy on Melo and should call him out by name, same with Rose. And maybe Noah too. Those guys are all under-performing. Enough with the silence and sideways messages, do it front and center. I have zero problem if team loses while putting 100% effort, but I don't see 100% effort from Rose and Melo.

They didn't give full effort in the 4OT loss in Atlanta in which Melo scored 45pts? That seemed like a decent effort and it was about a week ago.

In truth, their efforts seem to dwindle a little more every time Phil opens his mouth (or his twitter account) and tries to motivate them or uses a borderline slur to take a shot at the best player in the league.

Also, Kobe and MJ were two of the most competitive SOBs of all time. Even Lebron is not in their league in terms of competitive fire. Maybe Phil's one-size fit all motivation tactics don't work for everyone? And, for the record, Kobe hate Phil's comments and media leaks and almost orchestrated a trade to the Bulls in 2007, before they got Pau Gasol.

Today, Phil agreed with an article (written, coincidentally, by a Lakers beat writer Phil has known for years) that trashed Melo's competitive desire. In the same twit-breath PJ obliquely compared Melo to a guy who was kicked out of the CBA for a coke addiction in the 80s... so that might impact Melo's effort in the next game.

And if Phil is saying that he learned 30yrs ago that leopards don't change their spots... why'd he give Melo a no trade clause again? Why'd he even sign him? Why does he keep trashing him publicly for something he learned 30yrs ago will never change?

And how do these tactics help the Knicks get a free agent this summer? Is Jrue Holiday following this story and thinking "that's where I'll make my big splash! Where Phil will arrange a tear down piece of my game to be written if I have a bad week."

Phil is doing damage to the franchise, doing damage to his star player (and his star player's trade value)... and worst of all... what does KP think about all this? He's got a walk year coming in a few years... does he really want to stick around for this circus? This shouldn't even be a question... but it will become one if Phil continues on this path.

That is such a weak argument. Every game, on both ends of the floor. How hard is that to do when you have been given a Max deal with a NTC and are the so-called leader of the team? That is the bare minimum we should expect our players and ESPECIALLY our team leader to do. This is the guy who was complicit with FORCING his way to NY by stripping the team of assets.

Every game for every minute of every game. Not just once a month when the game is close. And when your shot is off, play some defense, get a ****-ton of rebounds, play some bad-ass help defense for the 30+ minutes you are on the court. And please point out to me just ONE GAME THIS YEAR that you can help me identify where Melo played some very good defense. And I'll even accept 100% effort with bad technique as good enough. Just 1 game. I don't think ANYONE can do that.

There have been plenty of games Melo has given a good effort - wins against Charlotte, Minnesota, Portland, games against Atlanta, Chicago. He's also 32yrs old and playing way too many minutes. Also, the Knicks defensive scheme never seems to change - I don't think the entire team scheme should be laid on Melo's lap. Their system, ever since Fisher left, has allowed constant open threes. That's Rambis's philosophy and I think it is deeply wrong for today's game. Fisher used to force guys off the line and it worked pretty well. As soon as Rambis took over last season in February, we started allowing tons of open threes. I don't blame Melo for that.

KP is an elite rim protector, but our defensive scheme and lineups have KP chasing around stretch 4s on the perimeter. Melo shouldn't be playing the 3 at this point of his career - since 2012-3 we've all known his best position is PF, where he is actually an above average defender by the numbers. Is the lineup Melo's fault? Or is that roster construction Phil's fault? Or is it the coach? I think it is crappy to scapegoat Melo for a team that has been a mess from roster construction, coaching, lineups, on down. Is it Melo's fault the Knicks defense is much better when KOQ starts over Noah? Melo is not an elite defender. Neither is James Harden. You can win with those guys by playing to their strengths, instead of griping about their weaknesses.

Look, I agree it is time for Melo to go. He's not in his prime anymore and he can't deliver an all-star performance every night by any stretch. The team is ready to rebuild through the draft and around KP and Willy. But I disagree with Phil's tactics. The articles being written around the league, not just in NY, seem to prove that league-wide people are not impressed by how Phil has handled this. It will have negative consequences down the road. I'm guessing as early as this summer in Free Agency.

That's the wrong answer. The answer should be that he has given 100% effort EVERY GAME ON BOTH ENDS OF THE COURT. Melo is averaging 33.8 minutes a game, least of his career. You give 100% effort all the time and when you are dog tired, you ask to be taken out or take a game off completely if absolutely necessary.

I am talking about effort, not execution. I don't expect a perfect player but I do expect perfect effort.

That's just a wildly unrealistic expectation. How many players in the league do you think meet that standard? I'm not trying to be facetious, but I think it is unrealistic to think 32yr old Melo coming off two knee debridements and playing with a shoulder injury is going to play all out for 34minutes a night at this stage of his career. Melo should be averaging even fewer minutes. Wade is averaging 30mpg this year.

Though again, I think the main issue on defense is the scheme. And the starting lineup has three guys on the wrong side of 30 - Noah is the biggest culprit, Rose would be next, Melo would be next. All three are a problem on defense. Starting them together is suicide. Our best stretches of the season coincided with Noah being out earlier in the year, before the wheels came flying off. I love Noah... but his game and his lateral movement is toast. He shouldn't have been signed for 4yrs.

Rose should've been suspended when he went AWOL and benched for his defensive effort, far moreso than Melo, IMHO. Rose going AWOL is to me when the season really hit the point of no return. And, yes, I do think Jackson should have said something publicly and stood up for Hornacek and his team and suspended Rose. Guys have been openly defying Hornacek on the floor since Rose got back. Rose, KOQ, Melo. Phil needed to step in publicly there and make an example of Rose. He didn't, season went even further off the rails.

LeBron at the same age averages 37.6 minutes a game. And BTW you just admitted that Melo doesn't give 100% effort because he is 32rs old coming off of debridement, as if that is an excuse. If Melo needs to cut back to 30, so be it. But during those minutes, 100% effort on offense and defense. You don't get to take off 1 side of the court. Ever. Why isn't the bare minimum expectation for a team leader to give 100% effort every game? WTF is that? We trying to win games that lead to playoffs or something else? That's culture. That's leadership.

I don't know why you keep talking about defensive schemes. I don't even care if they are the worst in the league, just give 100% effort all the time.

Coaches can put guys in position to defend well on defense. Remember JVG? Thibs?

I'll be the first to admit that Melo does not have great defensive instincts and calls for too many switches that seem unnecessary (though the whole damn team does that.... so again, is that the scheme? Courtney Lee has said the switching is part of their scheme)... Regardless, we know Melo is not a great defender. I contend that he could be made to look a lot better if he were playing the 4, not the 3... and if their scheme made more sense. It may just come down to lineups - I've always thought that the best they've looked all season has been Holiday at the 2, CLee at the 3, Melo at the 4. With that set up and KP or KOQ at the 5, they've been solid defensively. The way the league is built now, you need two wings who can quickly close out corner 3s. Melo is not that guy. You can point the finger at him, but imho it is bad planning, bad lineup, bad defensive scheme to expect Melo to be able to close out the corner 3 at this stage of his career. Cleveland doesn't ask Lebron to do that.

Also, it is kinda ridiculous for Melo to be compared constantly to Kobe, Jordan, and Lebron. Melo is not that level. He doesn't have the athleticism of any of those guys. He can score as well as them, but that's about it. Most guys in the history of the league don't measure up to MJ, Kobe, and Lebron. Those are three of the best of all time. He really has nowhere near the athleticism of any of them. It's an absurd demand for Phil to make, it's an absurd expectation for fans.

And I have no way of backing this up, but I think that the effort for the whole team has basically slid as they lost a bunch of close games and Phil started trying to publicly trade Melo. Both things are demoralizing. One thing you can control and one you can't.

Hell, you all have seen me get on Melo before - I still think he is partially to blame for the Knicks not re-signing Lin. I think he's had good seasons here and bad ones. I think it is unfair to scapegoat him for this season and I think it is just a bad strategy to try and trash him on the way out the door, both for getting a good return in a trade and for signing FA going forward. We'll see, I reckon.

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:For me the analogy of scratching a car you want sell is a poor one. Melo's game does not change because of articles written or tweets made, that's just silly talk. Melo is who Melo is and every player and GM knows this; dude has been in the league for 13 years.

Would Melo's trade value go UP if Phil started saying nice things? No. Rosen article comes out and it's all roses about Melo? Nada.

What I love about this: Melo becomes more frustrated, team is losing. That's a win-win for the long term of the Knicks; better draft position while trying to move Melo.

How does trashing Melo and letting everyone know you don't want him and that you can only trade him to three teams make it easier to trade him? That is honestly the worst negotiation tactic I've ever seen. But I agree it improved their draft position. Though if that was the goal, it seems odd to trade Jerian Grant for a one year rental and sign Noah for 4 years.

None of it make senses and he keeps flip flopping from yr to yr.

Martin the public comments are unnecessary and vindictive, you know it, or your playing niaive...This is a case where the player has all the cards and your mad cause you can't dump him.. phil is not a president, he's a coach trying to be a president, 2 different courses of action.

He runs this franchise like it's something to do to make him still relevant It's like MAGIC JOHNNSON or MJ trying to coach, that ain't for them They can't get most players on thier level, atlest not verbally, they need to be directly invloved (like playing).

Phil could never get melo to convert unless he was the coach, and now he's just going about it the wrong way.

So now every star player or any FA has to think, if I don't play according to phils liking, He's going to throw me under the bus, try and crush my brand or trade me at the first sign of adversity..SORRY NO THANKS

I don't want to put words in your mouth but you must think Melo is the biggest ***** in the NBA. Vindictive? Phil has said some very complimentary things of Melo while also saying he holds the ball too long (everyone in the league and his mama knows this. Every ballboy knows this, so nothing new). Phil also says Melo is one of the best scorers in the league but needs to be more of a team player. He's giving an honest opinion that pretty much EVERYONE has of Melo... and people think that is vindictive? If that is all it takes to throw a player off his game, the so-called leader of the Knicks, I don't want him on the team and he doesn't deserve to be here if he can't take that vindictive type of heat. I want the Knicks to win. Jordan and Kobe and Shaq took much much worse and ate it up and spit it back out and then WON GAMES.

Phil should expect Melo to play every freaking game at 100% at both ends of the floor. And when he isn't getting calls, I'd expect him to hustle his ass off and get back on D and make sure the team is shutting down the opponent and then show why he is the best scorer in the league. And do it every ****ing night.

I think Phil is going easy on Melo and should call him out by name, same with Rose. And maybe Noah too. Those guys are all under-performing. Enough with the silence and sideways messages, do it front and center. I have zero problem if team loses while putting 100% effort, but I don't see 100% effort from Rose and Melo.

They didn't give full effort in the 4OT loss in Atlanta in which Melo scored 45pts? That seemed like a decent effort and it was about a week ago.

In truth, their efforts seem to dwindle a little more every time Phil opens his mouth (or his twitter account) and tries to motivate them or uses a borderline slur to take a shot at the best player in the league.

Also, Kobe and MJ were two of the most competitive SOBs of all time. Even Lebron is not in their league in terms of competitive fire. Maybe Phil's one-size fit all motivation tactics don't work for everyone? And, for the record, Kobe hate Phil's comments and media leaks and almost orchestrated a trade to the Bulls in 2007, before they got Pau Gasol.

Today, Phil agreed with an article (written, coincidentally, by a Lakers beat writer Phil has known for years) that trashed Melo's competitive desire. In the same twit-breath PJ obliquely compared Melo to a guy who was kicked out of the CBA for a coke addiction in the 80s... so that might impact Melo's effort in the next game.

And if Phil is saying that he learned 30yrs ago that leopards don't change their spots... why'd he give Melo a no trade clause again? Why'd he even sign him? Why does he keep trashing him publicly for something he learned 30yrs ago will never change?

And how do these tactics help the Knicks get a free agent this summer? Is Jrue Holiday following this story and thinking "that's where I'll make my big splash! Where Phil will arrange a tear down piece of my game to be written if I have a bad week."

Phil is doing damage to the franchise, doing damage to his star player (and his star player's trade value)... and worst of all... what does KP think about all this? He's got a walk year coming in a few years... does he really want to stick around for this circus? This shouldn't even be a question... but it will become one if Phil continues on this path.

That is such a weak argument. Every game, on both ends of the floor. How hard is that to do when you have been given a Max deal with a NTC and are the so-called leader of the team? That is the bare minimum we should expect our players and ESPECIALLY our team leader to do. This is the guy who was complicit with FORCING his way to NY by stripping the team of assets.

Every game for every minute of every game. Not just once a month when the game is close. And when your shot is off, play some defense, get a ****-ton of rebounds, play some bad-ass help defense for the 30+ minutes you are on the court. And please point out to me just ONE GAME THIS YEAR that you can help me identify where Melo played some very good defense. And I'll even accept 100% effort with bad technique as good enough. Just 1 game. I don't think ANYONE can do that.

I think your miss understanding the point. Phil is ripping up his reputation by single out one player consistenly. It's a real bicth move when someones in your face, and then you chose to run and talk sht about him behind his back.

The team sucks even worse without melo and rose and they give the same inconsistant effort on defense, epecially everyone's little precious KP.

When Is the accountability going to be accross the boards, from phil, to the coaching staff, to the video guy, to every single player on the roster.

I wish some of you would stop acting like phil knows what he's doing, Did you forget that we had ALL WHITE STARTING 5 just 2 years ago..yeah the 17 win season..in this day and age...smh.. More and More phil is reminding me of the guy from the movie OFFICE SPACE..

If it's all about tanking then say so instead giving me a 6 for a 9

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:For me the analogy of scratching a car you want sell is a poor one. Melo's game does not change because of articles written or tweets made, that's just silly talk. Melo is who Melo is and every player and GM knows this; dude has been in the league for 13 years.

Would Melo's trade value go UP if Phil started saying nice things? No. Rosen article comes out and it's all roses about Melo? Nada.

What I love about this: Melo becomes more frustrated, team is losing. That's a win-win for the long term of the Knicks; better draft position while trying to move Melo.

How does trashing Melo and letting everyone know you don't want him and that you can only trade him to three teams make it easier to trade him? That is honestly the worst negotiation tactic I've ever seen. But I agree it improved their draft position. Though if that was the goal, it seems odd to trade Jerian Grant for a one year rental and sign Noah for 4 years.

None of it make senses and he keeps flip flopping from yr to yr.

Martin the public comments are unnecessary and vindictive, you know it, or your playing niaive...This is a case where the player has all the cards and your mad cause you can't dump him.. phil is not a president, he's a coach trying to be a president, 2 different courses of action.

He runs this franchise like it's something to do to make him still relevant It's like MAGIC JOHNNSON or MJ trying to coach, that ain't for them They can't get most players on thier level, atlest not verbally, they need to be directly invloved (like playing).

Phil could never get melo to convert unless he was the coach, and now he's just going about it the wrong way.

So now every star player or any FA has to think, if I don't play according to phils liking, He's going to throw me under the bus, try and crush my brand or trade me at the first sign of adversity..SORRY NO THANKS

I don't want to put words in your mouth but you must think Melo is the biggest ***** in the NBA. Vindictive? Phil has said some very complimentary things of Melo while also saying he holds the ball too long (everyone in the league and his mama knows this. Every ballboy knows this, so nothing new). Phil also says Melo is one of the best scorers in the league but needs to be more of a team player. He's giving an honest opinion that pretty much EVERYONE has of Melo... and people think that is vindictive? If that is all it takes to throw a player off his game, the so-called leader of the Knicks, I don't want him on the team and he doesn't deserve to be here if he can't take that vindictive type of heat. I want the Knicks to win. Jordan and Kobe and Shaq took much much worse and ate it up and spit it back out and then WON GAMES.

Phil should expect Melo to play every freaking game at 100% at both ends of the floor. And when he isn't getting calls, I'd expect him to hustle his ass off and get back on D and make sure the team is shutting down the opponent and then show why he is the best scorer in the league. And do it every ****ing night.

I think Phil is going easy on Melo and should call him out by name, same with Rose. And maybe Noah too. Those guys are all under-performing. Enough with the silence and sideways messages, do it front and center. I have zero problem if team loses while putting 100% effort, but I don't see 100% effort from Rose and Melo.

They didn't give full effort in the 4OT loss in Atlanta in which Melo scored 45pts? That seemed like a decent effort and it was about a week ago.

In truth, their efforts seem to dwindle a little more every time Phil opens his mouth (or his twitter account) and tries to motivate them or uses a borderline slur to take a shot at the best player in the league.

Also, Kobe and MJ were two of the most competitive SOBs of all time. Even Lebron is not in their league in terms of competitive fire. Maybe Phil's one-size fit all motivation tactics don't work for everyone? And, for the record, Kobe hate Phil's comments and media leaks and almost orchestrated a trade to the Bulls in 2007, before they got Pau Gasol.

Today, Phil agreed with an article (written, coincidentally, by a Lakers beat writer Phil has known for years) that trashed Melo's competitive desire. In the same twit-breath PJ obliquely compared Melo to a guy who was kicked out of the CBA for a coke addiction in the 80s... so that might impact Melo's effort in the next game.

And if Phil is saying that he learned 30yrs ago that leopards don't change their spots... why'd he give Melo a no trade clause again? Why'd he even sign him? Why does he keep trashing him publicly for something he learned 30yrs ago will never change?

And how do these tactics help the Knicks get a free agent this summer? Is Jrue Holiday following this story and thinking "that's where I'll make my big splash! Where Phil will arrange a tear down piece of my game to be written if I have a bad week."

Phil is doing damage to the franchise, doing damage to his star player (and his star player's trade value)... and worst of all... what does KP think about all this? He's got a walk year coming in a few years... does he really want to stick around for this circus? This shouldn't even be a question... but it will become one if Phil continues on this path.

That is such a weak argument. Every game, on both ends of the floor. How hard is that to do when you have been given a Max deal with a NTC and are the so-called leader of the team? That is the bare minimum we should expect our players and ESPECIALLY our team leader to do. This is the guy who was complicit with FORCING his way to NY by stripping the team of assets.

Every game for every minute of every game. Not just once a month when the game is close. And when your shot is off, play some defense, get a ****-ton of rebounds, play some bad-ass help defense for the 30+ minutes you are on the court. And please point out to me just ONE GAME THIS YEAR that you can help me identify where Melo played some very good defense. And I'll even accept 100% effort with bad technique as good enough. Just 1 game. I don't think ANYONE can do that.

There have been plenty of games Melo has given a good effort - wins against Charlotte, Minnesota, Portland, games against Atlanta, Chicago. He's also 32yrs old and playing way too many minutes. Also, the Knicks defensive scheme never seems to change - I don't think the entire team scheme should be laid on Melo's lap. Their system, ever since Fisher left, has allowed constant open threes. That's Rambis's philosophy and I think it is deeply wrong for today's game. Fisher used to force guys off the line and it worked pretty well. As soon as Rambis took over last season in February, we started allowing tons of open threes. I don't blame Melo for that.

KP is an elite rim protector, but our defensive scheme and lineups have KP chasing around stretch 4s on the perimeter. Melo shouldn't be playing the 3 at this point of his career - since 2012-3 we've all known his best position is PF, where he is actually an above average defender by the numbers. Is the lineup Melo's fault? Or is that roster construction Phil's fault? Or is it the coach? I think it is crappy to scapegoat Melo for a team that has been a mess from roster construction, coaching, lineups, on down. Is it Melo's fault the Knicks defense is much better when KOQ starts over Noah? Melo is not an elite defender. Neither is James Harden. You can win with those guys by playing to their strengths, instead of griping about their weaknesses.

Look, I agree it is time for Melo to go. He's not in his prime anymore and he can't deliver an all-star performance every night by any stretch. The team is ready to rebuild through the draft and around KP and Willy. But I disagree with Phil's tactics. The articles being written around the league, not just in NY, seem to prove that league-wide people are not impressed by how Phil has handled this. It will have negative consequences down the road. I'm guessing as early as this summer in Free Agency.

That's the wrong answer. The answer should be that he has given 100% effort EVERY GAME ON BOTH ENDS OF THE COURT. Melo is averaging 33.8 minutes a game, least of his career. You give 100% effort all the time and when you are dog tired, you ask to be taken out or take a game off completely if absolutely necessary.

I am talking about effort, not execution. I don't expect a perfect player but I do expect perfect effort.

That's just a wildly unrealistic expectation. How many players in the league do you think meet that standard? I'm not trying to be facetious, but I think it is unrealistic to think 32yr old Melo coming off two knee debridements and playing with a shoulder injury is going to play all out for 34minutes a night at this stage of his career. Melo should be averaging even fewer minutes. Wade is averaging 30mpg this year.

Though again, I think the main issue on defense is the scheme. And the starting lineup has three guys on the wrong side of 30 - Noah is the biggest culprit, Rose would be next, Melo would be next. All three are a problem on defense. Starting them together is suicide. Our best stretches of the season coincided with Noah being out earlier in the year, before the wheels came flying off. I love Noah... but his game and his lateral movement is toast. He shouldn't have been signed for 4yrs.

Rose should've been suspended when he went AWOL and benched for his defensive effort, far moreso than Melo, IMHO. Rose going AWOL is to me when the season really hit the point of no return. And, yes, I do think Jackson should have said something publicly and stood up for Hornacek and his team and suspended Rose. Guys have been openly defying Hornacek on the floor since Rose got back. Rose, KOQ, Melo. Phil needed to step in publicly there and make an example of Rose. He didn't, season went even further off the rails.

LeBron at the same age averages 37.6 minutes a game. And BTW you just admitted that Melo doesn't give 100% effort because he is 32rs old coming off of debridement, as if that is an excuse. If Melo needs to cut back to 30, so be it. But during those minutes, 100% effort on offense and defense. You don't get to take off 1 side of the court. Ever. Why isn't the bare minimum expectation for a team leader to give 100% effort every game? WTF is that? We trying to win games that lead to playoffs or something else? That's culture. That's leadership.

I don't know why you keep talking about defensive schemes. I don't even care if they are the worst in the league, just give 100% effort all the time.

Coaches can put guys in position to defend well on defense. Remember JVG? Thibs?

I'll be the first to admit that Melo does not have great defensive instincts and calls for too many switches that seem unnecessary (though the whole damn team does that.... so again, is that the scheme? Courtney Lee has said the switching is part of their scheme)... Regardless, we know Melo is not a great defender. I contend that he could be made to look a lot better if he were playing the 4, not the 3... and if their scheme made more sense. It may just come down to lineups - I've always thought that the best they've looked all season has been Holiday at the 2, CLee at the 3, Melo at the 4. With that set up and KP or KOQ at the 5, they've been solid defensively. The way the league is built now, you need two wings who can quickly close out corner 3s. Melo is not that guy. You can point the finger at him, but imho it is bad planning, bad lineup, bad defensive scheme to expect Melo to be able to close out the corner 3 at this stage of his career. Cleveland doesn't ask Lebron to do that.

Also, it is kinda ridiculous for Melo to be compared constantly to Kobe, Jordan, and Lebron. Melo is not that level. He doesn't have the athleticism of any of those guys. He can score as well as them, but that's about it. Most guys in the history of the league don't measure up to MJ, Kobe, and Lebron. Those are three of the best of all time. He really has nowhere near the athleticism of any of them. It's an absurd demand for Phil to make, it's an absurd expectation for fans.

And I have no way of backing this up, but I think that the effort for the whole team has basically slid as they lost a bunch of close games and Phil started trying to publicly trade Melo. Both things are demoralizing. One thing you can control and one you can't.

Hell, you all have seen me get on Melo before - I still think he is partially to blame for the Knicks not re-signing Lin. I think he's had good seasons here and bad ones. I think it is unfair to scapegoat him for this season and I think it is just a bad strategy to try and trash him on the way out the door, both for getting a good return in a trade and for signing FA going forward. We'll see, I reckon.

This is the core of the problem that leads to the creation of these Diva players. This mindset in the fans and the media. I was amazed reading through the above exchange, honestly.
Think about what you are saying-

- Martin isn't even asking for 36 minutes a game but you can't talk about anything else. Martin is asking for consistent effort every time on both sides of the ball, but you have to deflect the discussion to coaching and other crap

- You are asking for schemes to hide his deficiency on defense? That is your answer to him not giving effort? Do you not realize how pathetic that sounds? So every player on the roster has to play extra hard on defense so we can mollycoddle this dumbass otherwise he will go on one of his pouting episodes?

- We don't need him to be Lebron but we need him to earn his paycheck. Why do we need to make it everyone else's fault when he doesn't give effort? This obvious double standard that is created for these undeserving players has perpetuated this disgusting mindset. They are lazy, selfish douchebags that don't give a flying flip about the team and yet fans and the media keep trying to make it out as everyone else's fault. Then we wonder why pro basketball has lost its charm.

- Why is it the Team plays better when he is on the bench? And don't respond with lame ass 0-6 argument. A team can't be competitive in the NBA using 80% of its payroll. If Melo wasnt here we could have one or two decent two way players at the same cost, I don't doubt for a second we could win games if that was the case. The team isn't required to win games with him on the bench sucking up cap space to prove we can win without him. It's not even a valid requirement.

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

martin wrote:For me the analogy of scratching a car you want sell is a poor one. Melo's game does not change because of articles written or tweets made, that's just silly talk. Melo is who Melo is and every player and GM knows this; dude has been in the league for 13 years.

Would Melo's trade value go UP if Phil started saying nice things? No. Rosen article comes out and it's all roses about Melo? Nada.

What I love about this: Melo becomes more frustrated, team is losing. That's a win-win for the long term of the Knicks; better draft position while trying to move Melo.

How does trashing Melo and letting everyone know you don't want him and that you can only trade him to three teams make it easier to trade him? That is honestly the worst negotiation tactic I've ever seen. But I agree it improved their draft position. Though if that was the goal, it seems odd to trade Jerian Grant for a one year rental and sign Noah for 4 years.

None of it make senses and he keeps flip flopping from yr to yr.

Martin the public comments are unnecessary and vindictive, you know it, or your playing niaive...This is a case where the player has all the cards and your mad cause you can't dump him.. phil is not a president, he's a coach trying to be a president, 2 different courses of action.

He runs this franchise like it's something to do to make him still relevant It's like MAGIC JOHNNSON or MJ trying to coach, that ain't for them They can't get most players on thier level, atlest not verbally, they need to be directly invloved (like playing).

Phil could never get melo to convert unless he was the coach, and now he's just going about it the wrong way.

So now every star player or any FA has to think, if I don't play according to phils liking, He's going to throw me under the bus, try and crush my brand or trade me at the first sign of adversity..SORRY NO THANKS

I don't want to put words in your mouth but you must think Melo is the biggest ***** in the NBA. Vindictive? Phil has said some very complimentary things of Melo while also saying he holds the ball too long (everyone in the league and his mama knows this. Every ballboy knows this, so nothing new). Phil also says Melo is one of the best scorers in the league but needs to be more of a team player. He's giving an honest opinion that pretty much EVERYONE has of Melo... and people think that is vindictive? If that is all it takes to throw a player off his game, the so-called leader of the Knicks, I don't want him on the team and he doesn't deserve to be here if he can't take that vindictive type of heat. I want the Knicks to win. Jordan and Kobe and Shaq took much much worse and ate it up and spit it back out and then WON GAMES.

Phil should expect Melo to play every freaking game at 100% at both ends of the floor. And when he isn't getting calls, I'd expect him to hustle his ass off and get back on D and make sure the team is shutting down the opponent and then show why he is the best scorer in the league. And do it every ****ing night.

I think Phil is going easy on Melo and should call him out by name, same with Rose. And maybe Noah too. Those guys are all under-performing. Enough with the silence and sideways messages, do it front and center. I have zero problem if team loses while putting 100% effort, but I don't see 100% effort from Rose and Melo.

They didn't give full effort in the 4OT loss in Atlanta in which Melo scored 45pts? That seemed like a decent effort and it was about a week ago.

In truth, their efforts seem to dwindle a little more every time Phil opens his mouth (or his twitter account) and tries to motivate them or uses a borderline slur to take a shot at the best player in the league.

Also, Kobe and MJ were two of the most competitive SOBs of all time. Even Lebron is not in their league in terms of competitive fire. Maybe Phil's one-size fit all motivation tactics don't work for everyone? And, for the record, Kobe hate Phil's comments and media leaks and almost orchestrated a trade to the Bulls in 2007, before they got Pau Gasol.

Today, Phil agreed with an article (written, coincidentally, by a Lakers beat writer Phil has known for years) that trashed Melo's competitive desire. In the same twit-breath PJ obliquely compared Melo to a guy who was kicked out of the CBA for a coke addiction in the 80s... so that might impact Melo's effort in the next game.

And if Phil is saying that he learned 30yrs ago that leopards don't change their spots... why'd he give Melo a no trade clause again? Why'd he even sign him? Why does he keep trashing him publicly for something he learned 30yrs ago will never change?

And how do these tactics help the Knicks get a free agent this summer? Is Jrue Holiday following this story and thinking "that's where I'll make my big splash! Where Phil will arrange a tear down piece of my game to be written if I have a bad week."

Phil is doing damage to the franchise, doing damage to his star player (and his star player's trade value)... and worst of all... what does KP think about all this? He's got a walk year coming in a few years... does he really want to stick around for this circus? This shouldn't even be a question... but it will become one if Phil continues on this path.

Do you think there is anyone on Knicks coaching staff encouraging him to play ISO or to standstill on defense? It's not just lack of effort. He's deciding what he wants to do and telling the team and coaches eff you.

That's why Phil tweeted. He's old school. He expects the players to do what the coaches ask

EnySpree wrote:

holfresh wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

holfresh wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2691601-phil-jackson-knicks-stymied-by-wanting-carmelo-to-be-something-he-is-not

Even more fascinating? Jackson’s public response:

Follow
Phil Jackson ✔ @PhilJackson11
Bleacher's Ding almost rings the bell, but I learned you don't change the spot on a leopard with Michael Graham in my CBA daze.
1:22 PM - 7 Feb 2017

Wow..Jackson has nothing to say publicly about the team but takes a show at Melo in a tweet..He wants to get fired and pocket the 24 mil left on his deal...Not surprising...

More likely he's trying to get melo to agree to a trade- good tactic if it works, but a big gamble. let's see what happens

Phil is hurting the franchise with this..This only confirms what people think of New York..It's juvenile..

One Tweet stating what every writer, commentator and fan has been saying his whole nba career... and you interpret it to Phil being to get fired so he can cash in? Calling a 70 year old man Juvenile? Give me a break fam.

We're losing because Melo refuses to change period. He's better suited to be a hired gun at this point. Phil gave him his money and a no trade clause because he genuinely wants to be here.... he's proven now that he doesn't want to win. He wants to hold the ball and shoot. He doesn't want to play a team game. That's why Phil is forcing the triangle. He wants Melo to realize that he had to pass the ball to win. He refused to adapt. He breaks plays left and right and holds the ball 5-7 seconds almost every time.

Bottom line I'm not going to be a sucker and attack Dolan, Phil, Steve Mills, Hornacek and Rambis. Fire all those guys and Whoever replaces them will have to figure out who they can trade to make the team win around Melo. Enough.... it's time to kill that noise.

well said.

My favorite part of the article. PHIL HAS BROUGHT OVER EXPERIENCE VETS TO SURROUND HIM, TWICE1 GTFOH!!! You mean Robin ****in Lopez? Aflalo? The broken down Rose and Noah? Cuz i'm sure you guys think they are All Stars. Yeah can see it now. Watch put LBJ, Love and Irving...Here come Melo AA and Rolo. They must have been really scared with that sight. LMAO.

Herre is a pic of your boy. You think he was in favor of letting Lin go? You think he blames Melo? IS this DK7th? Think so!

You haters keep going with all the obscure personal **** to support your hate for the guy. It will be over soon. And you can sit on here every night and complain how the misfits are not turning out to what you experts thought them to be. Think the basketball gods have it right, why give a chip to a bunch of whinning no talent recognizing haters.

Uptown wrote:One of the main reasons phil was hired was because Dolan thought he could attract elite players. The league is watching and most of them are friends. Which elite player would want to play for this *** h@&* if he is going to drag them in public?

Most of them are "friends" And this means what?

LBJ and Mike Miller are known as extremely good friends off the court. If it's just LBJ and Mike Miller to the Heat with no Wade and no Bosh, do you see that happening?

"No, no dude, Player X is my BFF, he's MY BESTEST BEST FRIEND IN THE WORLD, I AM GOING TO GIVE UP 20 MILLION MORE DOLLARS AND TWO MORE YEARS OF SECURITY LOCKED IN BECAUSE EXECUTIVE Y SAID HORRIBLE THING Z TO MY BUDDY!"

Yes, the league is watching, and when push comes to shove, both organization and players are cutthroat, they are going to do what's in their personal interest. Which means the most money, the longest contract and the best opportunity to win/contend.

When has a sports executive carried so much sway that he could change the dynamic of an organization and it's perception just by himself?

Parcells. Maybe Belichick if he left NE for another team. Maybe Billy Beane. Very very few guys can hold that kind of sway. Parcells was a true monster in the press and how he worked a locker room.

Guess what? These guys have to hear all kinds of unpleasant crap about them all the time. It's part of the package to be a public athlete/celebrity.

If Jackson hammering Melo in the press opens up the NTC to include other teams where the Knicks get an INCREMENTALLY less worse deal, how exactly is that bad for the Knicks fans in general?

This is not an asset dump, it's a cost controlled loss. Melo is a sunk cost at this point. Many of you still see him as an asset. And I fail to truly understand why at this point. He does what always does, he pouts and plays selfishly until he moves on or is moved or gets what he wants and in this case, he's not getting what he wants.

Have some of you guys seen so much losing from this franchise that you EXPECT SO VERY LITTLE from your players? From your "franchise player"?

Nalod wrote:Phil vindictive????

He said a bunch of nice things and then said he holds the ball.
Melo wants superstar money but a team should not hold him to a standard?
Melo said he'd recruit. He has not.
Melo said he'd sacrifice his game to win. He has not.
Melo had meetings with Phil. Maybe Phil is tired of hearing Melo say one thing, then not follow thru.
Old arrogant white man vs. young brash black man. Lets sell newspapers. Bottom line is both are bright articulate men with great talents but both are not well accomplished in all areas. Phil has yet to demonstrate he can be an architect to construct a team with a winning culture. Melo has not shown to be an on court Alpha. He is who he is and Knicks have come to the crossroads that to pay him as they do, at his age, to do what he does is not conducive to building. Melo was given a NTC which controls his destiny and he had leverage at the time. Knicks wanted to sell tickets while they rebuild. Both got what they wanted. At some point Melo has to come to an understanding that its time to move on. This is into entirely his fault mind you! The team was built around him did not conform, or he did not conform to it. Regardless are subject to media "well, he started it!!!"
Does it matter? really? I see what I see. I see moments where this team is moving the ball and is amazing. Then it stops.
In six years knicks have rebuilt this team a few times with melo at the epicenter of it all.
I will guess that attempts have been maid behind closed doors to give Melo the graceful exit most players would relish. But has chosen to exercise his right to be with his wife and son in NY. its not like Phil is ripping his family apart. Phil has his job.

Regarding expectations, we don't know in the Melo-Phil sit-downs what melo has promised. But its evident phil is frustrated. Maybe he knows Melo is capable of more but if he is prolonging his career and promoting his brand ahead of the team, that won't sit well with him. He coached the greatness INTO Jordan and Kobe. Both had amazing talants and work ethics, but both were not on a higher winning level. Phil got them their. Should Phil coach? Maybe Phil is wrong to think he could mentor greatness.

Mostly nobody here can fully defend either beyond speculation because we are not privy to the inner minds of these men. Nor is Isola.

Nalod has come to like Melo, but its only because he is a knick. I think he needs to find life beyond New York for his sake.

Phil wants superstar money but a team and fans should not hold him to a standard?
Phil said he'd recruit. He has not.
Phil should sacrifice his triangle to win. He has not.

With our limited visibility it sure seems that Phil is being a douche. Why not just work to get him out of here? Keep it under the table? How does this possibly help?

Now the flip side is if Phil asked Melo to focus more on leading, playing defense, sharing the ball, setting those tones than Melo's play this year has been a straight up F-U to Phil. If thats the case it *still* doesnt make sense for Phil to trash him but I certainly understand the frustration.

As far as FAs, I am not convinced of Melo's respect around the league. I think his peers see him for what he is, a great scorer and a good guy but not the guy who is going to battle and take your team to anywhere near elite. Melo is a power hitter who strikes out 200 times a year. His overall numbers look good but his HRs and RBIs come in bunches and dont really reflect his day to day play, which is wildly inconsistent.

People here are WAY to focused on blame. Blaming Phil, blaming Melo. Blame accomplishes nothing but to justify one party in doing nothing about a situation. We all know Melo's flaws and they are not improving, they are worsening. Are we going to be an elite team with Melo as a centerpiece? Are we going to be a good team with Melo as a centerpiece? The teams we are talking about him joining already have 2-3 elite players in the league. We have none. KP is a wonderful prospect, but he is not yet an elite NBA player. Finally the last and most important question is if we are rebuilding this roster does having Melo on the squad help or hurt? When you consider how the offense stops with him on the floor and how the young players under his wing lean on him I think having him here hurts. These guys need to take their lumps. I am much more comfortable with Noah and Lee's veteran leadership than Melo's at this point.

Phil was very complimentary publicly regarding Melo. The telling quote was when he said Melo is one of the NBA's elite scorers, but still has another level he can take it to. Remember that? I suspect Phil spelled it out for him, and Melo went on being Melo and Phil is pissed and sick of it.

Neither are right. All that matters is whats best for the Knicks and Phil has drafted well and scouted well and signed good players. I get the early trades were not good, but neither were Tyson/JR/Shump and all got contracts right after the Knicks that nobody would want, so Is hard to sell Phil's failure to get great assets back when what went out was pretty bad also.