Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Us losing games is on Melo. Defensively he is atrocious for the team's leader. He just brings zero defensive culture to the team.

I do have no hard feelings for Melo. I appreciate his talent as a scorer. He's one of the best isolation scorers in the game. However, he is not winning as the man. We're moving nowhere. We're stuck between a fringe playoff team and a lottery team. It's not a good place to be in every year. Moving Melo expediates the rebuilding process.

If the team were able to win something in the now, or Melo was drawing in all-star free agents that could put the Knicks into contending, ok. That's not the case. The trade has made sense for almost 2 years now. However Phil and everyone wanted to give it a try. They have. Time to move on now.

Phil has to step up. Take the heat. Be the bad guy. He's already vilified. He does need to make a trade that gives Knicks some capspace and longterm assets. It won't be easy to make a trade.

It's not just his defense, though. His shooting is worse than the worst shooting team in the league. If he's not going to play defense or shoot respectably, what are we paying him $25 mil for? The 5.9 rebounds? 0.9 steals?

He was shooting 48% before he injured his shoulder..His % plummeted since then..He might be getting paid since the team has no chance to win without him..

Small sample? :) He barely shot better than the worst team last year too. Who cares if the team doesn't win without him? No one's talking about just waiving him. The team doesn't win with him anyway.

Small sample yes but not the point..Point is his shooting woes are due to a bad shoulder..I actually think it's just getting better..

The starters can complete..The bench has 7 guys with less than two years experience..Holiday has 3 years..They get out scored every time he leaves the court..Bench has had a few shiny moments but they can't compete against good teams..Maybe he should play 48 minutes..But these are the same arguments you had in 2011/12..

My point is that you can't adequately judge how a guy leads a team until you have pieces to win..Knicks have had bad management during Melo's tenure..All this negative Melo talk is just pile on becuase it's easy..Not fact based..

The cavs have no assets they would part with. Tristan Thompson or Love isn't going anywhere and there aren't three team deals that make sense.

The clippers aren't moving griffin unless they get a guarantee from Chris Paul that he resigns if they trade for Melo.

The Celtics spent too long building team chemistry and are better served maxing Gordan Hayward in the offseason whose a complete player with no baggage or ego issues.

So the Knicks are where they are as usual, mediocre just bad enough not to win the lottery.

Hard to blame Phil here, Noah was his only real questionable decision. It's not his fault we haven't had pics in 2/3 seasons.

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Us losing games is on Melo. Defensively he is atrocious for the team's leader. He just brings zero defensive culture to the team.

I do have no hard feelings for Melo. I appreciate his talent as a scorer. He's one of the best isolation scorers in the game. However, he is not winning as the man. We're moving nowhere. We're stuck between a fringe playoff team and a lottery team. It's not a good place to be in every year. Moving Melo expediates the rebuilding process.

If the team were able to win something in the now, or Melo was drawing in all-star free agents that could put the Knicks into contending, ok. That's not the case. The trade has made sense for almost 2 years now. However Phil and everyone wanted to give it a try. They have. Time to move on now.

Phil has to step up. Take the heat. Be the bad guy. He's already vilified. He does need to make a trade that gives Knicks some capspace and longterm assets. It won't be easy to make a trade.

It's not just his defense, though. His shooting is worse than the worst shooting team in the league. If he's not going to play defense or shoot respectably, what are we paying him $25 mil for? The 5.9 rebounds? 0.9 steals?

He was shooting 48% before he injured his shoulder..His % plummeted since then..He might be getting paid since the team has no chance to win without him..

Small sample? :) He barely shot better than the worst team last year too. Who cares if the team doesn't win without him? No one's talking about just waiving him. The team doesn't win with him anyway.

Small sample yes but not the point..Point is his shooting woes are due to a bad shoulder..I actually think it's just getting better..

The starters can complete..The bench has 8 guys with less than two years experience..Holiday has 3 years..They get out scored every time he leave the court..Bench has had a few shiny moments but they can't compete against good teams..Maybe he should play 48 minutes..But these are the same arguments you had in 2011/12..

That doesn't seem likely. Did he have a bad shoulder all of last year?

It's a fact tha t he hurt his shoulder..

BRIGGS wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Problem here is, everyone is too busy whining like 2 year old little girls and looking to blame someone for not being able to wear their oversize Knick jerseys in public, that they are not seeing the real problems. Reminds me a lot of whining Yankee fans. (Probably a lot on here and in NYC)
If you watch the last 10 games, Melo is not the problem. KP is not LBJ and he will not be handing us a chip if we give him the rock every possession. People keep talking **** but they seem to not be noticing simple facts. It's easy to blame the star, I get it. Easy to say Melo can't play defense, not the best defensive player. Easy to say he takes too many shots, anyone who doesn't already know this is mentally slow. But look at why we are losing and you see a lot more obvious things to correct.

Raptors back court scored 64 points yesterday...not on Melo
Melo leaves in Q2...bench plays like ****.(happens most games)
2 years of tanking by Phil..Not on Melo for losing.
2nd unit has no consistent scorers...yeah I know, Cheese, Baker and Willy are awesome.
Oh yeah, Triangle learning curve and old man Phil insistence for every coach.

I still see the biggest problems as
Noah a mistake and liabilty for 17M..not on Melo (Phil?)
KP not a center and forcing 2 guys to play out of position..not on Melo
Rose not a PG no outside jumper.
Lee not the defender everyone claimed he was. JR without the energy, ability to play in spotlight and big moment and ability to drive.
Hmmmm and NO BENCH!!

Is Melo the same? No. Does he miss defensive assignments? Yes. Can we win with him with a few changes to the roster? Absolutely. Fact of the matter is that the alternative is watching a bunch of young unproven guys get their **** handed to them every night, only to realize a few years later that we did not draft the next LBJ like every dreamer on this board is assuming we will. While were at it, let's all quit our jobs and play Lotto for a living. Way to build is have solid vets, Melo and trade for young 2 or 3 year pros and hope to get some luck in draft. Only reason I see to trade Melo is that KP can't play center. But then you better hope KP ia ready to turn into what everyone is claiming him to be.(Better than Melo) But be careful, he can be the next Dirk or, like someone mentioned, Bradley 2.0. Big and soft and taking 30 footers all game. Keep in mind that guys like that need players like Melo to shine.

Agree with almost every point uou said. Melo not to blame but right now the Knicks need massive change of course and melo represents the opportunity to change. We have 0 chance to win with melo none. So change course while you can

"While you can" what? We would have to get back an equal contract. Love is off the table. Cavs have no real picks. Clips arent giving us a good piece. Melo is not going to Boston or any other team with decent picks.(NTC) Question...Don't you think Noah at 17m a year is a bigger black hole than our best player at 25M? And again, no Melo doesn't guarantee we are not the next Philly. Biggest thing for me is that fans want to win but they think it's by ****ting on their best player. Seen it my whole life in this city. That and proclaiming anyone with some talent as the next savior only to **** on them when their unrealistic expectations don't pan out.

The other thing is Melo's presence will mean he will always be the man on the team. Removing him allows younger players to step up and shine. Show what they can do. Same with Rose. If we look at things objectively, it's far better to be a 60 loss team that can draft players with KP's potential and to work with that than to be a 50 loss team with Melo and Rose putting up stats and taking up high usage of plays.

I'm not blaming Melo for all the losing or the fact that Noah, Lee and Rose have all been unable to defend at good enough a level. However it's time to get some longterm assets in place. No free agent of all-star status with prime years ahead is signing with the Knicks in free agency. They're not a contender with what they have. So how do they get better? They won't. They'll be stuck between a .400 and .500 level team rest of the way.

Trade Melo, tank and let KP rest as long as possible. Find a taker for Rose, otherwise after trade deadline waive him. Give minutes to players like O'Quinn, Hernangomez, Kuz, Baker and Holiday. Start thinking about next year already. When KP comes back fully healthy, ask him to be more aggressive and try to do more. He may fail, but he will learn. He will learn what it's like to be the man and he'll be more ready next season to deal with.

We're going to win between 30-35 games the way we're currently set up with Rose/Melo. If by some miracle KP, Rose and Melo all stay healthy the rest of the season they may be able to win 40 or 41 games. Smart bet is they won't stay healthy. It's not lost on me that we have a winning record with Rose/Melo/KP in the lineup. Even better when O'Quinn starts. I know there is real talent here. However how things have gone, making the playoffs is not so realistic. So with the situation what it is, blow things up and try to get the best draft pick possible.

If we didn't tank or Melo does not have knee surgery in 2015, we would have not gotten KP. Surely we would have drafted someone good because that draft was great, but at 6 or 7 we would have gotten a Mudiay or lesser player. That's why you want to draft high. Make a decision. Melo and Rose on the team means the Knicks will be drafting 10 or lower. We want to aim to be in the playoffs or draft 6 and higher.

And if the decision is to still try and make the playoffs, Phil needs to step in and make a coaching change. Rambis and Horny out. Phil needs to either coach the season out himself, or find someone who has enough defensive smarts to make the defense better ASAP. Horny has lost Rose and doesn't have the vets playing his style of ball on either end. It's a bad fit.

meloshouldgo wrote:I would absolutely take a unprotected first round pick from the clips. But Melo isn't going anywhere, we are stuck with him for two more years

Why would it even matter if a draft pick coming from the Clippers is unprotected since any 1st round pick you get from them is gonna be a the bottom of the first round anyway cause they'll always be a good team?

BRIGGS wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Problem here is, everyone is too busy whining like 2 year old little girls and looking to blame someone for not being able to wear their oversize Knick jerseys in public, that they are not seeing the real problems. Reminds me a lot of whining Yankee fans. (Probably a lot on here and in NYC)
If you watch the last 10 games, Melo is not the problem. KP is not LBJ and he will not be handing us a chip if we give him the rock every possession. People keep talking **** but they seem to not be noticing simple facts. It's easy to blame the star, I get it. Easy to say Melo can't play defense, not the best defensive player. Easy to say he takes too many shots, anyone who doesn't already know this is mentally slow. But look at why we are losing and you see a lot more obvious things to correct.

Raptors back court scored 64 points yesterday...not on Melo
Melo leaves in Q2...bench plays like ****.(happens most games)
2 years of tanking by Phil..Not on Melo for losing.
2nd unit has no consistent scorers...yeah I know, Cheese, Baker and Willy are awesome.
Oh yeah, Triangle learning curve and old man Phil insistence for every coach.

I still see the biggest problems as
Noah a mistake and liabilty for 17M..not on Melo (Phil?)
KP not a center and forcing 2 guys to play out of position..not on Melo
Rose not a PG no outside jumper.
Lee not the defender everyone claimed he was. JR without the energy, ability to play in spotlight and big moment and ability to drive.
Hmmmm and NO BENCH!!

Is Melo the same? No. Does he miss defensive assignments? Yes. Can we win with him with a few changes to the roster? Absolutely. Fact of the matter is that the alternative is watching a bunch of young unproven guys get their **** handed to them every night, only to realize a few years later that we did not draft the next LBJ like every dreamer on this board is assuming we will. While were at it, let's all quit our jobs and play Lotto for a living. Way to build is have solid vets, Melo and trade for young 2 or 3 year pros and hope to get some luck in draft. Only reason I see to trade Melo is that KP can't play center. But then you better hope KP ia ready to turn into what everyone is claiming him to be.(Better than Melo) But be careful, he can be the next Dirk or, like someone mentioned, Bradley 2.0. Big and soft and taking 30 footers all game. Keep in mind that guys like that need players like Melo to shine.

Agree with almost every point uou said. Melo not to blame but right now the Knicks need massive change of course and melo represents the opportunity to change. We have 0 chance to win with melo none. So change course while you can

You know, it's amazing the power there is in just saying the same phrase over and over again with no allusion to any facts. We cannot win with Melo. (Even though we have) We cannot win with Melo. (Even though you just agreed with most of the points that the losing has little to nothing to do with Melo) We cannot win with Melo.

It's a great worldview. Here, let me try it:

We are going to win a chip with Melo.

Knixkik wrote:

wargames wrote:

Knixkik wrote:I have always been supportive of Melo. He is the scapegoat the same way Ewing was. NY fans just don't learn. However, if it's time to move on, that's fine. It's reality that most of these relationships end in divorce. Change is the only constant. But I would have loved to see porzingis at the 5 and Melo at the 4 before a divorce. But it may be too little too late. We can't learn much the 2nd half of the year if both sides are thinking it's time to move on.

I also agree. Us losing isn't Melo's fault. But the Knicks need to get younger and their time table for success likely doesn't match Melo's. The Knicks also need to keep cap space open. Literally the best time to trade Melo to would be Boston for those 2 Brooklyn Picks..... maybe through in Lee or KOQ to make it a better deal.

I doubt we can get both picks. I also doubt melo would want to go to boston. I think LAC would be his landing spot, if any. Too bad they don't have much we can use. Maybe they consider trading us Blake if we also take that terrible Wes Johnson deal off their hands and include o'quinn, who would really help them off the bench. Flip Griffin to a 3rd team. Not sure what else we can do. I'm not taking Clippers junk and they have no picks. Maybe to Cleveland for Thompson and this year's 1st rounder but Melo really doesn't make much sense for them. I'd hold off for Griffin. We could send them melo and a 3rd team can give them extra depth. If and when a deal happens, it will have to be an elaborate 3 team trade. Maybe Melo to LA, Griffin to boston, Crowder headed to LA too. Bk 1st rounder to us. Fillers to make the contracts work (boston is under the cap which makes it easier.) Something like that could work.

One of the best case scenarios for me in a Melo trade would be a 3 way and i don't care who the third team is as long as the Celtics are one of the teams and i would do everything i can and add players with Melo as long as we get J.Crowder and Avery Bradley along with a draft pick or two. Both Bradley and Crowder play strong defense and both have good offense as well and you add those two around KP and others and i'd be happy for the rebuild around KP process to start. Bradley can play the one or the two and we could even keep D.Rose with that group.

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:Us losing games is on Melo. Defensively he is atrocious for the team's leader. He just brings zero defensive culture to the team.

I do have no hard feelings for Melo. I appreciate his talent as a scorer. He's one of the best isolation scorers in the game. However, he is not winning as the man. We're moving nowhere. We're stuck between a fringe playoff team and a lottery team. It's not a good place to be in every year. Moving Melo expediates the rebuilding process.

If the team were able to win something in the now, or Melo was drawing in all-star free agents that could put the Knicks into contending, ok. That's not the case. The trade has made sense for almost 2 years now. However Phil and everyone wanted to give it a try. They have. Time to move on now.

Phil has to step up. Take the heat. Be the bad guy. He's already vilified. He does need to make a trade that gives Knicks some capspace and longterm assets. It won't be easy to make a trade.

It's not just his defense, though. His shooting is worse than the worst shooting team in the league. If he's not going to play defense or shoot respectably, what are we paying him $25 mil for? The 5.9 rebounds? 0.9 steals?

He was shooting 48% before he injured his shoulder..His % plummeted since then..He might be getting paid since the team has no chance to win without him..

Small sample? :) He barely shot better than the worst team last year too. Who cares if the team doesn't win without him? No one's talking about just waiving him. The team doesn't win with him anyway.

Small sample yes but not the point..Point is his shooting woes are due to a bad shoulder..I actually think it's just getting better..

The starters can complete..The bench has 8 guys with less than two years experience..Holiday has 3 years..They get out scored every time he leave the court..Bench has had a few shiny moments but they can't compete against good teams..Maybe he should play 48 minutes..But these are the same arguments you had in 2011/12..

That doesn't seem likely. Did he have a bad shoulder all of last year?

It's a fact tha t he hurt his shoulder..

newyorker4ever wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

wargames wrote:

Knixkik wrote:I have always been supportive of Melo. He is the scapegoat the same way Ewing was. NY fans just don't learn. However, if it's time to move on, that's fine. It's reality that most of these relationships end in divorce. Change is the only constant. But I would have loved to see porzingis at the 5 and Melo at the 4 before a divorce. But it may be too little too late. We can't learn much the 2nd half of the year if both sides are thinking it's time to move on.

I also agree. Us losing isn't Melo's fault. But the Knicks need to get younger and their time table for success likely doesn't match Melo's. The Knicks also need to keep cap space open. Literally the best time to trade Melo to would be Boston for those 2 Brooklyn Picks..... maybe through in Lee or KOQ to make it a better deal.

I doubt we can get both picks. I also doubt melo would want to go to boston. I think LAC would be his landing spot, if any. Too bad they don't have much we can use. Maybe they consider trading us Blake if we also take that terrible Wes Johnson deal off their hands and include o'quinn, who would really help them off the bench. Flip Griffin to a 3rd team. Not sure what else we can do. I'm not taking Clippers junk and they have no picks. Maybe to Cleveland for Thompson and this year's 1st rounder but Melo really doesn't make much sense for them. I'd hold off for Griffin. We could send them melo and a 3rd team can give them extra depth. If and when a deal happens, it will have to be an elaborate 3 team trade. Maybe Melo to LA, Griffin to boston, Crowder headed to LA too. Bk 1st rounder to us. Fillers to make the contracts work (boston is under the cap which makes it easier.) Something like that could work.

One of the best case scenarios for me in a Melo trade would be a 3 way and i don't care who the third team is as long as the Celtics are one of the teams and i would do everything i can and add players with Melo as long as we get J.Crowder and Avery Bradley along with a draft pick or two. Both Bradley and Crowder play strong defense and both have good offense as well and you add those two around KP and others and i'd be happy for the rebuild around KP process to start. Bradley can play the one or the two and we could even keep D.Rose with that group.

What team and/or player would the Celts take for guys mentioned. I mean you mentioned some pretty valuable assets. And why would anyone give that much for press beaten, fan **** on, Phil bashing.Melo? Think only way Melo gets traded is he gets tired of Phil and demands a trade. Which then leaves us with squat except for possibility we tank and get a KP or Khame Brown.