dk7th wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Here we go again with you. Making ridiculous statements in order to pad your unqualified opinion of a player. We get it, you hate Rose. You came out and said it endless times on trial threads. Said it after every turnover, missed shot, missed pre season game. We get it. Here is your chance to give up the trolling. Would you not agree he is top 5 fastest PG in league? Would you not agree it is the first time he has been healthy going into a season in over three years? Is he not the best Guard we have had in many many years? When was the last time you saw a knick guard get easy transition baskets? All things a real Knick fan would be happy about? Of course he needs to improve and get accustomed to his teammates. But that will take more than one game. Something I am sure your not willing to give him. As it would prove your original prediction of him wrong.

the best point guards we had were jeremy lin and jason kidd. i don't like the friends he has, i don't like his choice in women or his treatment of them, and i don't like his sordid behavior. all true. as to his game, yeah i don't like his game either. if i did, i might be able to see past his off-court stuff. he doesn't defend at all, he takes too many shots. this has always been his game and where he remains flawed. so i don't see much upside and it is tiresome to hear how much his praises are sung. most advanced statistical models place him as basically no better than a bench player in terms of effectiveness. his drpm underscores this and his overall rpm remains below the league average. and this is with the bulls allowing rose to be rose.

i took a quick glance at this article when i googled rose vorp-- it is pretty sobering stuff:

http://perimeterplayers.com/2016/10/derrick-rose-worst-nba-players/

because it is the ultimate team game, the issue will remain: does rose play "alongside" others, or "with" others or "for" others?

Lin our best point guard? You just lost all credibility. But at least your motive for Melo and Rose hate is clear. Will admit Lin was the best 15 minutes of fame in NY Knick history. Had a great run for about 15 games. Which I guess to an advanced Stat/Basketball guy like you, equates to best ever? Makes sense, as you ruled on Rose after just one game. But your probably right, what do the Rockets, Lakers, Hornets know anyway. Lin's narrow court vision, suspect defense and horrible outside shooting is probably just all made up. He is just another low to mid level role player that can be replaced. No Derrick Rose. If he stays healthy, Rose will show his true ability.

HofstraBBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Here we go again with you. Making ridiculous statements in order to pad your unqualified opinion of a player. We get it, you hate Rose. You came out and said it endless times on trial threads. Said it after every turnover, missed shot, missed pre season game. We get it. Here is your chance to give up the trolling. Would you not agree he is top 5 fastest PG in league? Would you not agree it is the first time he has been healthy going into a season in over three years? Is he not the best Guard we have had in many many years? When was the last time you saw a knick guard get easy transition baskets? All things a real Knick fan would be happy about? Of course he needs to improve and get accustomed to his teammates. But that will take more than one game. Something I am sure your not willing to give him. As it would prove your original prediction of him wrong.

the best point guards we had were jeremy lin and jason kidd. i don't like the friends he has, i don't like his choice in women or his treatment of them, and i don't like his sordid behavior. all true. as to his game, yeah i don't like his game either. if i did, i might be able to see past his off-court stuff. he doesn't defend at all, he takes too many shots. this has always been his game and where he remains flawed. so i don't see much upside and it is tiresome to hear how much his praises are sung. most advanced statistical models place him as basically no better than a bench player in terms of effectiveness. his drpm underscores this and his overall rpm remains below the league average. and this is with the bulls allowing rose to be rose.

i took a quick glance at this article when i googled rose vorp-- it is pretty sobering stuff:

http://perimeterplayers.com/2016/10/derrick-rose-worst-nba-players/

because it is the ultimate team game, the issue will remain: does rose play "alongside" others, or "with" others or "for" others?

Lin our best point guard? You just lost all credibility. But at least your motive for Melo and Rose hate is clear. Will admit Lin was the best 15 minutes of fame in NY Knick history. Had a great run for about 15 games. Which I guess to an advanced Stat/Basketball guy like you, equates to best ever? Makes sense, as you ruled on Rose after just one game. But your probably right, what do the Rockets, Lakers, Hornets know anyway. Lin's narrow court vision, suspect defense and horrible outside shooting is probably just all made up. He is just another low to mid level role player that can be replaced. No Derrick Rose. If he stays healthy, Rose will show his true ability.

lin best knick point guard while a knick. running d'antoni's offense he thrived. he finishes at the rim more effectively than rose does. look at the stats. kidd was fantastic until he broke down-- the most important player the knicks had that season. 37 wins the next season without him proved how important he was.

you're creating an argument where there isn't one. if rose does well i will praise him. if he does poorly i will say so and point out why. as of right now i see him as a fool's gold player. he impresses many with his flashiness but he is closer to a zero-sum or negative-sum player.

dk7th wrote:

Welpee wrote:Now, if Rose and Jennings play great the next five or six game will there be a mea culpa? Nope. What will happen is a doubling down to prove he's still right by referencing obscure advance stats to prove we're not really witnessing what we're seeing. See, folks like this would rather be right and the Knicks lose than admit error and enjoy the Knicks success. "Fans" like this kill me.

if that ever happens you will find me to be intellectually honest and acknowledge it. i have no ulterior motive when i critique players. i have criticized carmelo mercilessly as a player and a person when he has played or behaved badly, and i have praised him and expressed admiration when he has played well and behaved well.

i don't like playing games. that's for wannabes and neverbeens.

fishmike wrote:

Welpee wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Welpee wrote:Now, if Rose and Jennings play great the next five or six game will there be a mea culpa? Nope. What will happen is a doubling down to prove he's still right by referencing obscure advance stats to prove we're not really witnessing what we're seeing. See, folks like this would rather be right and the Knicks lose than admit error and enjoy the Knicks success. "Fans" like this kill me.

if that ever happens you will find me to be intellectually honest and acknowledge it. i have no ulterior motive when i critique players. i have criticized carmelo mercilessly as a player and a person when he has played or behaved badly, and i have praised him and expressed admiration when he has played well and behaved well.

i don't like playing games. that's for wannabes and neverbeens.

...tapping my fingers on the table patiently waiting.

Thats a wannabe mea culpa and will be a neverbeens

Sadly I think DK has taken his brilliance elsewhere.

All the winning must have driven him off

Welpee wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Welpee wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Welpee wrote:Now, if Rose and Jennings play great the next five or six game will there be a mea culpa? Nope. What will happen is a doubling down to prove he's still right by referencing obscure advance stats to prove we're not really witnessing what we're seeing. See, folks like this would rather be right and the Knicks lose than admit error and enjoy the Knicks success. "Fans" like this kill me.

if that ever happens you will find me to be intellectually honest and acknowledge it. i have no ulterior motive when i critique players. i have criticized carmelo mercilessly as a player and a person when he has played or behaved badly, and i have praised him and expressed admiration when he has played well and behaved well.

i don't like playing games. that's for wannabes and neverbeens.

...tapping my fingers on the table patiently waiting.

Thats a wannabe mea culpa and will be a neverbeens

Sadly I think DK has taken his brilliance elsewhere.

All the winning must have driven him off

Yeah, nothing turns a Knicks "fan" off more than winning. I assume he'll reappear when we hit our next rough stretch.

nixluva wrote:All I know is that despite all the expert commentary to the contrary, Rose and BJ are helping this team win games. As many of us have said, a player doesn't have to be a Metrics Champion to help your team win. These guards have flaws but they also have some great strengths and that's the part that many doubters tended to overlook.

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:All I know is that despite all the expert commentary to the contrary, Rose and BJ are helping this team win games. As many of us have said, a player doesn't have to be a Metrics Champion to help your team win. These guards have flaws but they also have some great strengths and that's the part that many doubters tended to overlook.

The criticism and condemning of Rose before he set foot on the court and before the information concerning his legal matters came to light was ridiculous. I don't miss reading that stuff.

Cartman718 wrote:

TLover wrote:Hornaceck ran 2 point guards in Phoenix with success. Rose & Jennings together with Lee or Holiday at the 3, Melo at 4, KP at the 5 can be a dominating line-up.

At least Phil is not stuffing triangle down Hornacek's throat. Even our own triangle-screen-grab guru nix is posting that we need to play more pnr and 4 out. I remember when that was not the case.

Also...at least in the last 11 games (where our record is an East best 8-3), i'll guess-timate based on memory that we have played ol' fashioned triangle halfcourt offense no more than 30% of the time. This is where it should be imho given our personnel. It shouldn't be as high as 50 and it should not be as low as 5-10% because it does have it's beauty at times and it does fool the defense completely sometimes.

Is it Phil? or was it Fisher who was also married to the triangle system. With Hornacek, he's not part of Phils Triangle club of players / coaches. So Hornacek is able to diverge away from the triangle with more success, since he came in with his own system knowledge. Phil wants his triangle to work, but he also wants to win! So there could be a suttle change on his part. I think Hornacek and Phil have a better marriage together, vs the other coaches who was only triangle centric.

Cartman718 wrote:

TLover wrote:Hornaceck ran 2 point guards in Phoenix with success. Rose & Jennings together with Lee or Holiday at the 3, Melo at 4, KP at the 5 can be a dominating line-up.

At least Phil is not stuffing triangle down Hornacek's throat. Even our own triangle-screen-grab guru nix is posting that we need to play more pnr and 4 out. I remember when that was not the case.

Also...at least in the last 11 games (where our record is an East best 8-3), i'll guess-timate based on memory that we have played ol' fashioned triangle halfcourt offense no more than 30% of the time. This is where it should be imho given our personnel. It shouldn't be as high as 50 and it should not be as low as 5-10% because it does have it's beauty at times and it does fool the defense completely sometimes.

Jeff came into the job talking about running more Uptempo, PnR, Spacing and 3's. That's his style. Even with some Triangle they can still modify how they use the Triangle to fit Jeff's style. Fisher actually was right in what he was trying to do. I think Fish had other issues not related to his use of the Triangle. Phil was still convinced that with the previous roster he needed to see MORE Triangle. With this roster I think there's no way you should limit them to a Pure Triangle or even mostly Triangle. The Triangle has to be used sparingly with this roster. I think they've found a better balance, tho it's not perfect or consistent.