CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:103.3 points a night since Rambis took over.
More Triangle being run.
We use the pick/roll within the Triangle plenty.

A ballhandler that can penetrate the defense (beat guys off the dribble) and pass would go a long, long way for us in both wins as a team and the Triangle execution. The Knicks offensive system is not the problem. This system has helped players like Lopez, Porzingis and Galloway considerably. Looking at our talent level, if a coach or system is getting 103 points a night out of the team and we're not playing high tempo/run and gun offense (Which we aren't, we are playing execution slower/medium tempo offense) then that's a good system. Don't know what other system would have had this team do better. The major difference is us being 30-30 or 32-28 and our current record of 25-35 is that Melo couldn't keep going how he was 5 weeks ago. Melo in his prime or a legit top 10 player would have us at .500 or better and in the playoffs.

We've been saying this all year, that the Triangle Offense isn't the problem. With the improvement from Jose, Gallo and even Jerian it makes things run so much better. You can see the level of execution is getting better. The players are starting to know what they're doing as a group.

I'm really impressed with the attention to detail from Rambis. It's the best Triangle execution I've seen from this team.

I am a believer tonight. Kurt seems to say the right thing. His team always looks good in the first quarter. I might be wrong but I think the team is sustaining things longer and hopefully Kurt's approach to practices is paying off.

IMO if they maintain this level of preparation they stand a chance of continuing to improve. People totally misread Rambo. I was saying that his approach to developing the young players made sense to me. It wasn't so much that he was willing to sacrifice their development in order to win so he could keep the job. He was doing things THE RIGHT WAY.

Teaching them a winning mentality. How to practice hard, what is the right effort level, defense first and show it in practice. Then he'll put you in the game, better prepared to contribute.

I absolutely agree if that is what he is doing. Kurt isn't a guy that gets me fired up when he talks based on his tone. His insights/observations are right on but I wonder if he can communicate the way to correct things to his team. He seems to be doing that. If that is what is happening then he definitely is a candidate for the permanent job.

Well one thing that is going on under the radar is Rambo calling some things as the team brings the ball up. So they are changing up what actions they run in the Triangle. If you notice they don't run the exact same set every time down.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2016.html

According to that, we're the 15th best offense in the league. We don't have the guards or speedy players that can constantly push the ball to get more pace, so our pace is 22nd. Can probably get a little quicker in tempo next year with some younger guards. However, 15th in the league in offense rating is really solid for a team like the Knicks. In comparison last year the Knicks were 29th in the league on offense rating.

It's really come down to Melo's health and the lack of defense moreso than offense or offensive system. At season's start we were constantly holding teams down and now the last month we can't stop anyone on a consistent basis other than the teams that can't shoot 3's from outside. It's a combination of being really slow in the backcourt with Jose/Afflalo on defense, Melo also being slow footed at this point in his career, and playing 2 bigs. Next year we have to become more athletic and quicker with our starters around Lopez/Porzingis/Melo. This is in part why Rambis says "We really need Grant's speed. Same with Galloway". However neither Grant or Galloway are consistent enough on offense to be reliable starters. What we need are guys that can play at the level Jose/Afflalo play on offense but with the defensive/athletic talents of Grant/Galloway. And we need Grant/Galloway to both come in next year as better players in the system so they can be relied on for bigger minutes.

nyknickzingis wrote:The silence when the Triangle runs well is pretty funny. As soon as we have some not so good games on offense, everyone jumps on the system. I repeat something I've been saying for a while. Looking at our top 8-9 players on offense, our offense rating in the league is 15th in the league.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2016.html

According to that, we're the 15th best offense in the league. We don't have the guards or speedy players that can constantly push the ball to get more pace, so our pace is 22nd. Can probably get a little quicker in tempo next year with some younger guards. However, 15th in the league in offense rating is really solid for a team like the Knicks. In comparison last year the Knicks were 29th in the league on offense rating.

It's really come down to Melo's health and the lack of defense moreso than offense or offensive system. At season's start we were constantly holding teams down and now the last month we can't stop anyone on a consistent basis other than the teams that can't shoot 3's from outside. It's a combination of being really slow in the backcourt with Jose/Afflalo on defense, Melo also being slow footed at this point in his career, and playing 2 bigs. Next year we have to become more athletic and quicker with our starters around Lopez/Porzingis/Melo. This is in part why Rambis says "We really need Grant's speed. Same with Galloway". However neither Grant or Galloway are consistent enough on offense to be reliable starters. What we need are guys that can play at the level Jose/Afflalo play on offense but with the defensive/athletic talents of Grant/Galloway. And we need Grant/Galloway to both come in next year as better players in the system so they can be relied on for bigger minutes.

I'm not going to overreact to a win against the 10th best team in the East who were coming off a demoralizing loss to Steph and the Warriors. If you look at teams who play the Warriors, they often lose their NEXT game badly as well. There's a Warriors hangover that is real.

But, yes - they looked better last night.

To me, last night showed what this team can look like with an aggressive, effective PG. Calderon played great last night.

I do have some hope for what the team can look like if we can upgrade substantially at the point.

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Knicks looked best last night when they briefly ran the P&R. That's when Grant came to life. We were sharper on defense as well. Did they look better running the Triangle last night? Sure. But unless you are emotionally invested in this system, its going to take a lot more than the occasional win to want to keep it beyond this season.

I want to see us to finish the season strong before we possibly keep Rambis and the Triangle. Dont want Rambis to inherit the job, I want him to earn it. Done some good things but not enough yet to earn the job full time.

The difference between a PnR, Drag Screen or a Give and Go in this offense is extremely minor. All are just variations of the 2 man game. The overarching rules of this system are still Triangle and running a PnR has NEVER not been in the offense that Tex himself developed. It's just not the end all and be all of the offense. Most of the points they scored had nothing to do with a PnR so while it was a great addition to what they did on offense last night it wasn't what they did for most of their scoring. Those PnR plays still came within the flow of the Triangle SYSTEM. That's an important distinction. Being able to flow in and out of the Side Triangle set and do different things is not something special as some seem to think. Just go and watch an old Bulls game with Phil coaching and you'll be surprised at how the offense was run.

Rambo is doing a nice job so far but there's still plenty of season left for him to prove himself. IMO if he continues to develop and push this team as he has he may just prove he is more than a punch line or a Phil lackey. IMO he's been making substantive changes to how this team functions. The team is getting better gradually and hopefully they continue to improve. THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WiTH THE TRIANGLE.

The second paragraph was very refreshing, kidding aside.

The first one Im sorry to say is another example of the ever changing rationale for keeping this system. Lets say you're right that its just a variation of the 2 man game within the Triangle. Problem is that you yourself shot down my suggestion at one time to feature the 2 man game more because its not a big part of the Triangle. You may not believe it is the be all end all but some of the best tandems in NBA history would disagree about its effectiveness. You know them as well as I do.

As I said, they ran the Triangle well, but I believed they looked better when they went to more of a 2 man game, or whatever you want to call it. I want more proof that this system is so important that a more conventional, or even a more evolutionary approach isnt a better option. Until I see some Ws its all academic. Dont believe that's unreasonable as a fan.

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Knicks looked best last night when they briefly ran the P&R. That's when Grant came to life. We were sharper on defense as well. Did they look better running the Triangle last night? Sure. But unless you are emotionally invested in this system, its going to take a lot more than the occasional win to want to keep it beyond this season.

I want to see us to finish the season strong before we possibly keep Rambis and the Triangle. Dont want Rambis to inherit the job, I want him to earn it. Done some good things but not enough yet to earn the job full time.

The difference between a PnR, Drag Screen or a Give and Go in this offense is extremely minor. All are just variations of the 2 man game. The overarching rules of this system are still Triangle and running a PnR has NEVER not been in the offense that Tex himself developed. It's just not the end all and be all of the offense. Most of the points they scored had nothing to do with a PnR so while it was a great addition to what they did on offense last night it wasn't what they did for most of their scoring. Those PnR plays still came within the flow of the Triangle SYSTEM. That's an important distinction. Being able to flow in and out of the Side Triangle set and do different things is not something special as some seem to think. Just go and watch an old Bulls game with Phil coaching and you'll be surprised at how the offense was run.

Rambo is doing a nice job so far but there's still plenty of season left for him to prove himself. IMO if he continues to develop and push this team as he has he may just prove he is more than a punch line or a Phil lackey. IMO he's been making substantive changes to how this team functions. The team is getting better gradually and hopefully they continue to improve. THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WiTH THE TRIANGLE.

The second paragraph was very refreshing, kidding aside.

The first one Im sorry to say is another example of the ever changing rationale for keeping this system. Lets say you're right that its just a variation of the 2 man game within the Triangle. Problem is that you yourself shot down my suggestion at one time to feature the 2 man game more because its not a big part of the Triangle. You may not believe it is the be all end all but some of the best tandems in NBA history would disagree about its effectiveness. You know them as well as I do.

As I said, they ran the Triangle well, but I believed they looked better when they went to more of a 2 man game, or whatever you want to call it. I want more proof that this system is so important that a more conventional, or even a more evolutionary approach isnt a better option. Until I see some Ws its all academic. Dont believe that's unreasonable as a fan.

I never said they shouldn't feature the 2 man game more. I would NEVER say that since i'm very well acquainted with the offense and the Pinch Post is extremely important to the offense. That's the side where MJ and Kobe often operated and it's the most open side of the floor for attack. Shved was killing it from that side of the floor.
Melo is often getting the ball in the Pinch Post. I also wanted to see more of the Drag Screen at the top, which is easy to run a PnR out of. I've posted MANY stills of these plays in various threads. Perhaps you just misunderstood what I was trying to say.

I can try and find your post if you like.

GustavBahler wrote:http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/post.asp?m=q&r=1326758&t=52428&page=

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Thats great news. Also good news is Melo saying that he is going to be a big brother to Porzingis, try to help take some of the expectations and the pressure of playing in NY off of him.

I hope they can get a two man game going, that could be very dangerous.

Quiet as it's kept Melo is GREAT at playing a 2 man game with a big man.

But the truly amazing thing about Anthony’s excellent play is that he’s doing so well without really exploiting his elite ability as a pick-and-roll scorer. Less than a tenth of Anthony’s 339 field goal attempts have come as the ballhandler in a pick-and-roll, but he’s scoring a phenomenal 1.09 points per possession on those plays (per Synergy). For reference, only a few players in the whole league are more effective scorers in pick-and-rolls.

It’s not hard to see why. Anthony isn’t the explosive athlete LeBron James is, but he does have a similar combination of size, quickness and wicked dribbling skills. On high screen-and-rolls in particular, which almost always involve Tyson Chandler as the screener, Anthony is an absolute nightmare.

Last season, Carmelo Anthony got 10.6 percent of his shots as the pick-and-roll ball handler and it was one of his most effective weapons (he shot 47.9 percent and scored an impressive 1.07 points per possession). Still that was less shot attempts than he got through isolation (27.1 percent), post ups (20.8 percent) and even as a spot-up shooter (14.6 percent).

That 10.6 percent was up slightly from the 7.9 percent the year before, and if you go back it was more than the 7.7 percent of chances he got on the P&R his last season in Denver. (All stats via Synergy Sports).

But Anthony wants more.

That’s what he told Jared Zwerling of ESPNNewYork.com.

“I want to continue doing that and figuring that part out, but that comes along with the territory and the game situation,” he said. “It’s all about just trying to tighten up those screws that you already have, and just having fun with it.”

He should get more chances because maybe with it he will drive and attack more — Anthony is far more efficient when he attacks compared to when he settles and pulls up for a jumper.

I don't know how much he'd really be able to do that with KP in this offense. The PnR is not really a major staple, however, what is a big part of the offense is Give n Go style looks which are not too different from the PnR. Also you have an action like the Forward who flashes into the middle off a down screen while the ball is in the hands of Melo in the Pinch Post, so he could hit KP on that look quite often. This offense is flexible enough for these players to find ways to work off each other.

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/post.asp?m=q&r=1326758&t=52428&page=

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Thats great news. Also good news is Melo saying that he is going to be a big brother to Porzingis, try to help take some of the expectations and the pressure of playing in NY off of him.

I hope they can get a two man game going, that could be very dangerous.

Quiet as it's kept Melo is GREAT at playing a 2 man game with a big man.

But the truly amazing thing about Anthony’s excellent play is that he’s doing so well without really exploiting his elite ability as a pick-and-roll scorer. Less than a tenth of Anthony’s 339 field goal attempts have come as the ballhandler in a pick-and-roll, but he’s scoring a phenomenal 1.09 points per possession on those plays (per Synergy). For reference, only a few players in the whole league are more effective scorers in pick-and-rolls.

It’s not hard to see why. Anthony isn’t the explosive athlete LeBron James is, but he does have a similar combination of size, quickness and wicked dribbling skills. On high screen-and-rolls in particular, which almost always involve Tyson Chandler as the screener, Anthony is an absolute nightmare.

Last season, Carmelo Anthony got 10.6 percent of his shots as the pick-and-roll ball handler and it was one of his most effective weapons (he shot 47.9 percent and scored an impressive 1.07 points per possession). Still that was less shot attempts than he got through isolation (27.1 percent), post ups (20.8 percent) and even as a spot-up shooter (14.6 percent).

That 10.6 percent was up slightly from the 7.9 percent the year before, and if you go back it was more than the 7.7 percent of chances he got on the P&R his last season in Denver. (All stats via Synergy Sports).

But Anthony wants more.

That’s what he told Jared Zwerling of ESPNNewYork.com.

“I want to continue doing that and figuring that part out, but that comes along with the territory and the game situation,” he said. “It’s all about just trying to tighten up those screws that you already have, and just having fun with it.”

He should get more chances because maybe with it he will drive and attack more — Anthony is far more efficient when he attacks compared to when he settles and pulls up for a jumper.

I don't know how much he'd really be able to do that with KP in this offense. The PnR is not really a major staple, however, what is a big part of the offense is Give n Go style looks which are not too different from the PnR. Also you have an action like the Forward who flashes into the middle off a down screen while the ball is in the hands of Melo in the Pinch Post, so he could hit KP on that look quite often. This offense is flexible enough for these players to find ways to work off each other.

Was this supposed to be me being vehemently opposed to the idea of PnR? I'm not sure what you're trying to point to here. It's pretty much what I was saying above. I'm not saying there's no PnR or that they shouldn't run PnR. Just that it's not the dominant part of the offense that it is with other teams. They do run Dribble Hand off, Give n Go, Drag Screen actions that are pretty much the same kind of play as a PnR. Any 2 man action on the opposite side of the floor from the Overloaded Triangle side is gonna be good.

The only two man game I see is you debating yourself. I wont stand in your way. Its just not worth conversing with someone who will not own his own words. Life is too short.

You're not making any damn sense! What exactly is your argument with what I've said? I'm only making obvious statements of fact. WTF are you trying to say?

Knicks run an offense that doesn't feature heavy PnR! There is however, tons of 2 man action in the Pinch Post! They do use PnR, just not at the rate of most teams. That isn't the only 2 man action in basketball tho! Often the Knicks run Drag Screens that mimic a PnR or work 2 man in the Pinch Post where the PG can turn it into a PnR. They also run Dribble hand offs and Give n Go. It's not F'n complicated.

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/post.asp?m=q&r=1326758&t=52428&page=

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Thats great news. Also good news is Melo saying that he is going to be a big brother to Porzingis, try to help take some of the expectations and the pressure of playing in NY off of him.

I hope they can get a two man game going, that could be very dangerous.

Quiet as it's kept Melo is GREAT at playing a 2 man game with a big man.

But the truly amazing thing about Anthony’s excellent play is that he’s doing so well without really exploiting his elite ability as a pick-and-roll scorer. Less than a tenth of Anthony’s 339 field goal attempts have come as the ballhandler in a pick-and-roll, but he’s scoring a phenomenal 1.09 points per possession on those plays (per Synergy). For reference, only a few players in the whole league are more effective scorers in pick-and-rolls.

It’s not hard to see why. Anthony isn’t the explosive athlete LeBron James is, but he does have a similar combination of size, quickness and wicked dribbling skills. On high screen-and-rolls in particular, which almost always involve Tyson Chandler as the screener, Anthony is an absolute nightmare.

Last season, Carmelo Anthony got 10.6 percent of his shots as the pick-and-roll ball handler and it was one of his most effective weapons (he shot 47.9 percent and scored an impressive 1.07 points per possession). Still that was less shot attempts than he got through isolation (27.1 percent), post ups (20.8 percent) and even as a spot-up shooter (14.6 percent).

That 10.6 percent was up slightly from the 7.9 percent the year before, and if you go back it was more than the 7.7 percent of chances he got on the P&R his last season in Denver. (All stats via Synergy Sports).

But Anthony wants more.

That’s what he told Jared Zwerling of ESPNNewYork.com.

“I want to continue doing that and figuring that part out, but that comes along with the territory and the game situation,” he said. “It’s all about just trying to tighten up those screws that you already have, and just having fun with it.”

He should get more chances because maybe with it he will drive and attack more — Anthony is far more efficient when he attacks compared to when he settles and pulls up for a jumper.

I don't know how much he'd really be able to do that with KP in this offense. The PnR is not really a major staple, however, what is a big part of the offense is Give n Go style looks which are not too different from the PnR. Also you have an action like the Forward who flashes into the middle off a down screen while the ball is in the hands of Melo in the Pinch Post, so he could hit KP on that look quite often. This offense is flexible enough for these players to find ways to work off each other.

Was this supposed to be me being vehemently opposed to the idea of PnR? I'm not sure what you're trying to point to here. It's pretty much what I was saying above. I'm not saying there's no PnR or that they shouldn't run PnR. Just that it's not the dominant part of the offense that it is with other teams. They do run Dribble Hand off, Give n Go, Drag Screen actions that are pretty much the same kind of play as a PnR. Any 2 man action on the opposite side of the floor from the Overloaded Triangle side is gonna be good.

The only two man game I see is you debating yourself. I wont stand in your way. Its just not worth conversing with someone who will not own his own words. Life is too short.

You're not making any damn sense! What exactly is your argument with what I've said? I'm only making obvious statements of fact. WTF are you trying to say?

Knicks run an offense that doesn't feature heavy PnR! There is however, tons of 2 man action in the Pinch Post! They do use PnR, just not at the rate of most teams. That isn't the only 2 man action in basketball tho! Often the Knicks run Drag Screens that mimic a PnR or work 2 man in the Pinch Post where the PG can turn it into a PnR. They also run Dribble hand offs and Give n Go. It's not F'n complicated.

Fair enough, going to try one last time. Every GD thing anyone proposes, your answer is that the Triangle does the same thing. It took me several pages in another discussion for you to admit that the Triangle isnt pick and roll heavy. You couldnt bring yourself to admit that there was something the Triangle didnt do like it was a set of fing Ginsu knives.

Have you seen the same results with those other styles as opposed to the P&R? In two years I havent. Until I see the same success with the Triangle that Melo had with the P&R (which you yourself pointed out) its not the same thing. What is so fing complicated about playing to your star's strengths, especially when you have a potential superstar big man to run it with and a P&R savvy rookie PG who is struggling without it? If a veteran coach and former player versed in this system cant get them on the same page, then I sure as **** dont want another coach to try the same thing again. Thats the definition of madness.

I think you are misunderstanding what my points have been. I've never suggested that the Triangle is just like every other offense. There is a difference in how this offense works from a PnR heavy offense. That doesn't make the Triangle bad. It just makes the Triangle harder to learn. But that also isn't a bad thing.

This is YEAR ONE in this offense for most of this team!!! The longer they stay in this offense every single player will end up with a higher BBALL IQ and improved skills. They have no choice but to develop as individuals and as a group. You can see it already. MELO is getting better, as is RoLo. The improvement is gradual and the recent losing masks this development but it's a continual process.

I'm not arguing that the Knicks shouldn't go to more PnR or at the least use the Pinch Post a bit more. However, the Knicks scoring issues aren't really about the Triangle being a bad offense that needs changing. It's about proper execution. When they execute properly they can function at a high level. Since Rambis the team is scoring much more.

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/post.asp?m=q&r=1326758&t=52428&page=

nixluva wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Thats great news. Also good news is Melo saying that he is going to be a big brother to Porzingis, try to help take some of the expectations and the pressure of playing in NY off of him.

I hope they can get a two man game going, that could be very dangerous.

Quiet as it's kept Melo is GREAT at playing a 2 man game with a big man.

But the truly amazing thing about Anthony’s excellent play is that he’s doing so well without really exploiting his elite ability as a pick-and-roll scorer. Less than a tenth of Anthony’s 339 field goal attempts have come as the ballhandler in a pick-and-roll, but he’s scoring a phenomenal 1.09 points per possession on those plays (per Synergy). For reference, only a few players in the whole league are more effective scorers in pick-and-rolls.

It’s not hard to see why. Anthony isn’t the explosive athlete LeBron James is, but he does have a similar combination of size, quickness and wicked dribbling skills. On high screen-and-rolls in particular, which almost always involve Tyson Chandler as the screener, Anthony is an absolute nightmare.

Last season, Carmelo Anthony got 10.6 percent of his shots as the pick-and-roll ball handler and it was one of his most effective weapons (he shot 47.9 percent and scored an impressive 1.07 points per possession). Still that was less shot attempts than he got through isolation (27.1 percent), post ups (20.8 percent) and even as a spot-up shooter (14.6 percent).

That 10.6 percent was up slightly from the 7.9 percent the year before, and if you go back it was more than the 7.7 percent of chances he got on the P&R his last season in Denver. (All stats via Synergy Sports).

But Anthony wants more.

That’s what he told Jared Zwerling of ESPNNewYork.com.

“I want to continue doing that and figuring that part out, but that comes along with the territory and the game situation,” he said. “It’s all about just trying to tighten up those screws that you already have, and just having fun with it.”

He should get more chances because maybe with it he will drive and attack more — Anthony is far more efficient when he attacks compared to when he settles and pulls up for a jumper.

I don't know how much he'd really be able to do that with KP in this offense. The PnR is not really a major staple, however, what is a big part of the offense is Give n Go style looks which are not too different from the PnR. Also you have an action like the Forward who flashes into the middle off a down screen while the ball is in the hands of Melo in the Pinch Post, so he could hit KP on that look quite often. This offense is flexible enough for these players to find ways to work off each other.

Was this supposed to be me being vehemently opposed to the idea of PnR? I'm not sure what you're trying to point to here. It's pretty much what I was saying above. I'm not saying there's no PnR or that they shouldn't run PnR. Just that it's not the dominant part of the offense that it is with other teams. They do run Dribble Hand off, Give n Go, Drag Screen actions that are pretty much the same kind of play as a PnR. Any 2 man action on the opposite side of the floor from the Overloaded Triangle side is gonna be good.

The only two man game I see is you debating yourself. I wont stand in your way. Its just not worth conversing with someone who will not own his own words. Life is too short.

You're not making any damn sense! What exactly is your argument with what I've said? I'm only making obvious statements of fact. WTF are you trying to say?

Knicks run an offense that doesn't feature heavy PnR! There is however, tons of 2 man action in the Pinch Post! They do use PnR, just not at the rate of most teams. That isn't the only 2 man action in basketball tho! Often the Knicks run Drag Screens that mimic a PnR or work 2 man in the Pinch Post where the PG can turn it into a PnR. They also run Dribble hand offs and Give n Go. It's not F'n complicated.

Fair enough, going to try one last time. Every GD thing anyone proposes, your answer is that the Triangle does the same thing. It took me several pages in another discussion for you to admit that the Triangle isnt pick and roll heavy. You couldnt bring yourself to admit that there was something the Triangle didnt do like it was a set of fing Ginsu knives.

Have you seen the same results with those other styles as opposed to the P&R? In two years I havent. Until I see the same success with the Triangle that Melo had with the P&R (which you yourself pointed out) its not the same thing. What is so fing complicated about playing to your star's strengths, especially when you have a potential superstar big man to run it with and a P&R savvy rookie PG who is struggling without it? If a veteran coach and former player versed in this system cant get them on the same page, then I sure as **** dont want another coach to try the same thing again. Thats the definition of madness.

I think you are misunderstanding what my points have been. I've never suggested that the Triangle is just like every other offense. There is a difference in how this offense works from a PnR heavy offense. That doesn't make the Triangle bad. It just makes the Triangle harder to learn. But that also isn't a bad thing.

This is YEAR ONE in this offense for most of this team!!! The longer they stay in this offense every single player will end up with a higher BBALL IQ and improved skills. They have no choice but to develop as individuals and as a group. You can see it already. MELO is getting better, as is RoLo. The improvement is gradual and the recent losing masks this development but it's a continual process.

I'm not arguing that the Knicks shouldn't go to more PnR or at the least use the Pinch Post a bit more. However, the Knicks scoring issues aren't really about the Triangle being a bad offense that needs changing. It's about proper execution. When they execute properly they can function at a high level. Since Rambis the team is scoring much more.

As far as Im concerned its year two of the Triangle heading probably into year three. There is going to be a lot of roster shuffling in the coming years and we will have a lot of "year one" situations.

To me its not a question of whether or not the Triangle works, but what system will get us to where we want to be faster. Also be able to absorb new players into the system in relatively short order.

Its felt for some time now that we're taking the long road and for all the wrong reasons. When the Knicks more or less have the squad they want to go to battle with, thats when Id rather see the Triangle employed if at all. Right now Id much rather keep it to what the players we have now are more comfortable with and start giving KP and Grant playoff experience. I believe it would have been more likely with a conventional offense. Besides, most of them wont be here when the Knicks are ready to contend.