crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:Have no idea what the word "Real" means to some.

5APG is "real?" Wish Melo could average 5 APG...did not do it in his prime, though- never even cracked 4. He has been a much better distributor at times this year, which I like. He should continue to do it, even if guys are missing too many of the good looks he gets them.

If he is scoring 28PPG it will mean that the offense is broken and Anthony is putting up a ton of shots, since he is not going to have the 62% from the field he had the other day. This is not "real," and not good for the team, either.

If the Knicks are not winning, and he is averaging 28PPG, who cares. If he's doing it, and we are winning and the team is playing like a team, then I can accept it.

You know you have a losing team when fans cling to the statistics other than the winning % of their team. If you play the right way and win, the good stats will be there to cherish and roll about in like a pig in mud.

Most important thing for this season though is the development of our "younger" players, and I'm not just talking about the rookies. Have to see if we have something in Williams, Gallo, and O'Quinn, and I'd really like to know if Early has a future with the team.

At this time I'm probably more willing to accept a certain kind of play if it can somehow sneak us into the playoff picture because it would be good for the franchise and a selling point to FAs, but if a situation develops where there is an offensive imbalance, and the team is losing while the rookies are stagnant in their development, what is the point of it all?

Melo has played 12 years. I believe every year he's led his team in scoring and his first 10 seasons in the NBA were all winning seasons. The anti Melo crowd would have you believe he's a career loser putting up good numbers. His problem has been the post season where his style of play and/or lack of team depth have been exposed each year. Losing regular season games is a new thing for him.

As father time kicks in we will see how he adjusts. He's passed better and defended better this year. Sadly for Knick fans we have yet to view those improved traits with some good shooting as well. Now would be nice!

you're right... it's his style of play. so you can't throw his teammates under the bus for the playoff failures every single year. that's just a way of avoiding the uncomfortable truth that his style of play, with its profound flaws, gets exposed in the playoffs. he is the the red thread in his own career.

I believe the only playoff matchup he's ever been favored in and lost was the Knicks vs. Pacers, if you watched those games what did he get from his supporting cast? How did Tyson do vs. Hibbert? How did JR shoot? Did Kidd (MVP) even play?

I dont make excuses for Melo, but some perspective on his playoff failures wouldnt hurt either.

The Pacers may have been seeded third and the Knicks second, but that seeding was not reflective of which team was better-suited for playoff basketball. The better defensive team won handily. Even a creaky Celtics team gave the Knicks problems. No excuse for the Knicks losing that first game to the Pacers, losing home court. That's the sort of stuff that Melo-centric teams seem to suffer from.

Pacers matched up very well with us. We were a second seed at 54 win team with Jr being 6th man of the yr Jr, Kidd being a steady contributor and Tyson being DOP to go along with Melo being the scoring champ. None of those things happen(Except Melo) and it had nothing to do with us playing playoff basketball compared to regular season basketball.

Tyson getting manhandled by Hibbert had nothing to do with how Melo plays basketball
Kidd no long being an effective player had nothing to do with how Melo plays basketball
Jr Smith getting suspended and then partying with ReeRee had nothing to do with how Melo plays basketball
George Hill is better then Raymond Felton
David West is better then Iman Shumpert if we are to round off the core players.
That still leaves Lance to torch us off the bench.

melo doesn't elevate his game in the playoffs, nor does he adapt his game. it's not part of his nba dna. that is a fact. game 1 against the pacers he jacks up 28 shots and misses 18 of them. his putting his head down in sacramento and missing kp6 under the hoop is just another example among 100s that can be cited. matter of fact, the dunk attempt that was blocked by hibbert, tyson was alone under the basket. a simple little pocket bounce pass was perfectly makable, just as a hard overhead or even a hard lob to kp6-- also under the basket-- was makable.

think about that: in that first home game against the pacers he missed 18 shots on his home floor.

his usage was 43.3% and his assist rate was 6.2%.

Melo doesn't pass enough in the playoffs as his ast numbers are horrible, and his fg% drops. Everything else has improved in the playoffs compared to his regular season.

Even with going 10-28 he was +7 in plus minus and 1 of 3 players that had a positive plus minus. Tyson fouled out in 28 mins and had 3 rebounds. Jr Smith 27% usage, Kmart 20% usage, Shumpert 22% usage also touched the ball plenty. Felton and Pablo both leveled off Carmelo's high usage low ast% with 15%usg-15ast%(Felton) and Pablo (6%usage 37ast%)

You know why Felton and Pablo had a combined 21%usage-52ast% because they were getting there ast off of extra passes that started by Carmelo's kick outs. If you combine all 3. They held a 64usage% and 58ast%.

lol ... that was actually a good read but I wish I comprehended what you did there a bit better. You somehow configured a positive usage to assist rate for melo.

Don't know why its funny. That how the Knicks played basketball under Woodson. Kickouts and swing passes.

So are you saying that Melo had loads of hockey assists?

So you're saying that when Melo doesn't advance in the playoffs it's his fault, but when Chris Paul doesn't advance in the playoffs it's, what, an act of god? Or do teammate's performances come into play for Chris Paul? As a point guard, isn't it even more CP3's responsibility to get his teammates going? Melo was playing power forward against Indiana - playing with an injured shoulder that David West hammered in game 80 of the regular season and then KG tried to yank out of its socket in the playoffs against Boston.

I'm glad there are some guys on this forum who watched the games and realized that Melo took those shots because his teammates couldn't or wouldn't. Maybe Melo would've had more assists if guys like Felton didn't go 1-7 every game. JR went like 4-15 or 4-16 every night against Indiana. Is that Melo's fault, too? Should Melo have passed more to JR? Is Woodson to blame at all for not exploiting the Chris Copeland matchup? Is Tyson to blame at all for laying a complete goose egg in every playoffs series he was in in New York? Is Jason Kidd at fault since he was basically interviewing for the Nets coaching job DURING that playoffs run?

Melo's not flawless. He's a flawed star. But he plays hard and usually quite well. This is reminiscent of when guys used to bash Ewing. It's tired. Look at the roster. It's very similar to the rosters Lebron had in Cleveland before he went to Miami. Yes, Bron got to the Finals once in Cleveland back in the day, but just as often he had playoffs series where he looked completely alone on the floor and no amount of passing to Zydrunas or Boobie Gibson was going to beat Boston in the playoffs.

Its not on melo if the knicks did not succeed in the playoffs. That is a team victory.

Its is on melo that he played badly in this playoffs as he has in most of his playoffs.

Its not on Cp3 either, its on him to play well and he is a playoff superstar.

You can right how life was unfair and in this playoffs a guy had the flu and this guy this and that guy that and honey nut cheerios was not fair and made him made ... blah blah blah ... at the end of the day you have to put up and if life was not fair and dealt you a shytty hand then go ahead and use that as an excuse at every step of the way.

The only thing that was really unfair to melo in regards to ultimate winning is that he only had one year that he played with a Billups and Melo needs a billups to be successful and to take away his terrible primary decision making responsibilities. No arguing that the knicks made terrible moves that sucked for him.

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:quoteing myself

smackeddog we dont have balance. If the 3s arent falling the offense is whatever Melo can get us.
At this point I toe the line. Mel has been set up for failure in the playoffs for sure, in terms of matchups, injuries, all that. But has also CLEARLY failed to perform. I mean shooting <40% in more than half your career playoff games paints a dismal picture.

But yes... I am the Melo jock rider of UK. Apparently Im the only whom hasnt had their pet cat's skull crushed under MElo's Escalade

Fishmike i am with you on this. I have seen you give Melo credit where its due and criticize him when warranted. I try to hold him equally accountable as well. But unfortunately in this forum, there is only one extreme or the other. If you are not hating his every move, you are riding his jock into the sunset. That's just the way it goes around here.

Member #11!!!! Weather the storm.. they come and go...

you can gather the diehards for a UK philibuster. If all fails then that is always an option

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:quoteing myself

smackeddog we dont have balance. If the 3s arent falling the offense is whatever Melo can get us.
At this point I toe the line. Mel has been set up for failure in the playoffs for sure, in terms of matchups, injuries, all that. But has also CLEARLY failed to perform. I mean shooting <40% in more than half your career playoff games paints a dismal picture.

But yes... I am the Melo jock rider of UK. Apparently Im the only whom hasnt had their pet cat's skull crushed under MElo's Escalade

Fishmike i am with you on this. I have seen you give Melo credit where its due and criticize him when warranted. I try to hold him equally accountable as well. But unfortunately in this forum, there is only one extreme or the other. If you are not hating his every move, you are riding his jock into the sunset. That's just the way it goes around here.

Member #11!!!! Weather the storm.. they come and go...

you can gather the diehards for a UK philibuster. If all fails then that is always an option

Hey mreinman, I see I am not so bad after all! My threads have all gone for more then 3 pages. Contrary to your previous asseveration, I have contributed a lot to this forum:)

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Its not on melo if the knicks did not succeed in the playoffs. That is a team victory.

Its is on melo that he played badly in this playoffs as he has in most of his playoffs.

Its not on Cp3 either, its on him to play well and he is a playoff superstar.

You can right how life was unfair and in this playoffs a guy had the flu and this guy this and that guy that and honey nut cheerios was not fair and made him made ... blah blah blah ... at the end of the day you have to put up and if life was not fair and dealt you a shytty hand then go ahead and use that as an excuse at every step of the way.

The only thing that was really unfair to melo in regards to ultimate winning is that he only had one year that he played with a Billups and Melo needs a billups to be successful and to take away his terrible primary decision making responsibilities. No arguing that the knicks made terrible moves that sucked for him.

Oh, so you're saying that some of the playmaking responsibilities that you hold Melo responsible for got better when he actually played with a good point guard whose responsibility was to run the offense?

Is it strange then that when Melo was playing with an actual good point guard that in the 2009 playoffs he posted his best WS48 at .201? That's his first year with Billups.

It's almost like Melo isn't a point guard and needs a good point guard to be successful. It's almost like the quality of his teammates can either make things harder for him if they're bad or easier for him if they're good. It's almost like basketball is a team sport and efficiency might be connected to the other guys on your team.

Almost.

But deep down I know that Melo is just selfish and doesn't understand team basketball.

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Its not on melo if the knicks did not succeed in the playoffs. That is a team victory.

Its is on melo that he played badly in this playoffs as he has in most of his playoffs.

Its not on Cp3 either, its on him to play well and he is a playoff superstar.

You can right how life was unfair and in this playoffs a guy had the flu and this guy this and that guy that and honey nut cheerios was not fair and made him made ... blah blah blah ... at the end of the day you have to put up and if life was not fair and dealt you a shytty hand then go ahead and use that as an excuse at every step of the way.

The only thing that was really unfair to melo in regards to ultimate winning is that he only had one year that he played with a Billups and Melo needs a billups to be successful and to take away his terrible primary decision making responsibilities. No arguing that the knicks made terrible moves that sucked for him.

Oh, so you're saying that some of the playmaking responsibilities that you hold Melo responsible for got better when he actually played with a good point guard whose responsibility was to run the offense?

Is it strange then that when Melo was playing with an actual good point guard that in the 2009 playoffs he posted his best WS48 at .201? That's his first year with Billups.

It's almost like Melo isn't a point guard and needs a good point guard to be successful. It's almost like the quality of his teammates can either make things harder for him if they're bad or easier for him if they're good. It's almost like basketball is a team sport and efficiency might be connected to the other guys on your team.

Almost.

But deep down I know that Melo is just selfish and doesn't understand team basketball.

yes. he needs to play with a guy like billups because melo does not know how to share when he is in charge

Westbrook is incredible. That was the Gallo draft yea? I remember coveting him.

All I want for Christmas is a lead guard, a lead guard, a lead guard
All I want for Christmas is a lead guard, a lead guard, a lead guard
So I dont have to watch ISO anymore....

fishmike wrote:interestingly enough I never really though KD and Melo were that close. Very interesting.

Westbrook is incredible. That was the Gallo draft yea? I remember coveting him.

All I want for Christmas is a lead guard, a lead guard, a lead guard
All I want for Christmas is a lead guard, a lead guard, a lead guard
So I dont have to watch ISO anymore....

they are not that close unless you are using the eye test.

today players are judged using far more advanced stats. We all know that they are not close. Even if we refuse to death not to look at the basic advanced stats.

mreinman wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:
yes. he needs to play with a guy like billups because melo does not know how to share when he is in charge

Real simple answer to that: he's not a point guard.

I don't know if it is the fact that he was drafted alongside lebron and always gets compared to Lebron. but he's never going to be the playmaker lebron is. it's just not his game and never was.

you want to compare him to Durant? that's a little more fair. Durant gets about 4 assists per game (his high was 5 per game the year he won mvp) to Melo's 3 per game. now we're talking a fair comp. Durant also gets to play with one of the most electric point guards in the league though, in Westbrook. He also has Ibaka who shoots around 60% and is probably as good or better than anyone Melo has ever played with.

but if Melo could get up to Durant assist levels... i think we can all agree that'd be great.

though if you watch an OKC game sometime - it always comes down to iso Durant or iso Westbrook at the end of the game. Durant took a contested three to end (and lose) a game against the Heat in Miami last week. It was just as bad a shot as Melo's, except they had like 15 seconds on the shot clock instead of 4 and they inbounded in the front court, not the back court.

Just for giggles, Durant and Melo's career per 36 numbers. Durant is more efficient because he shoots more threes at a slightly higher percentage, but otherwise they are quite similar:

Durant per 36 career:

25.9ppg 6.6rpg 3.4apg 1.1steals 1.3 blks .482%fg .881ft% .381%3pt
field goal attempts per game 18

Melo per 36 career:

24.9ppg 6.5rpg 3.0apg 1.1steals .5blks .454%fg .818ft% .345%3pt
field goal attempts per game 19.5

His 3's are not slightly higher, they are way higher. Same for his FT's. His TS is miles higher and so is his WS48. Really bad comp. Durant is as smooth as it gets and as efficient as it gets.

How about PG? He keeps expanding his game. Melo has never really changed much. You first have to be willing to modify.

Also, you looked at Durant's career assists but if you look closer, he keeps getting better. At this point, career stats don't help us. We need him to change now. He passed great for most of the Sacramento game. I want to see more of that.

Durant's the better shooter, but if you closer at Melo's career numbers his three point shooting and efficiency have gone up in NY, as has his rebounding. His win shares have shot way up in NY, even if you count his injury ravaged season last year. And all that is without the benefit of playing next to an all NBA lead guard like Durant has for his whole career. You've already said that puts Melo at a disadvantage.

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:
yes. he needs to play with a guy like billups because melo does not know how to share when he is in charge

Real simple answer to that: he's not a point guard.

I don't know if it is the fact that he was drafted alongside lebron and always gets compared to Lebron. but he's never going to be the playmaker lebron is. it's just not his game and never was.

you want to compare him to Durant? that's a little more fair. Durant gets about 4 assists per game (his high was 5 per game the year he won mvp) to Melo's 3 per game. now we're talking a fair comp. Durant also gets to play with one of the most electric point guards in the league though, in Westbrook. He also has Ibaka who shoots around 60% and is probably as good or better than anyone Melo has ever played with.

but if Melo could get up to Durant assist levels... i think we can all agree that'd be great.

though if you watch an OKC game sometime - it always comes down to iso Durant or iso Westbrook at the end of the game. Durant took a contested three to end (and lose) a game against the Heat in Miami last week. It was just as bad a shot as Melo's, except they had like 15 seconds on the shot clock instead of 4 and they inbounded in the front court, not the back court.

Just for giggles, Durant and Melo's career per 36 numbers. Durant is more efficient because he shoots more threes at a slightly higher percentage, but otherwise they are quite similar:

Durant per 36 career:

25.9ppg 6.6rpg 3.4apg 1.1steals 1.3 blks .482%fg .881ft% .381%3pt
field goal attempts per game 18

Melo per 36 career:

24.9ppg 6.5rpg 3.0apg 1.1steals .5blks .454%fg .818ft% .345%3pt
field goal attempts per game 19.5

His 3's are not slightly higher, they are way higher. Same for his FT's. His TS is miles higher and so is his WS48. Really bad comp. Durant is as smooth as it gets and as efficient as it gets.

How about PG? He keeps expanding his game. Melo has never really changed much. You first have to be willing to modify.

Also, you looked at Durant's career assists but if you look closer, he keeps getting better. At this point, career stats don't help us. We need him to change now. He passed great for most of the Sacramento game. I want to see more of that.

Durant's the better shooter, but if you closer at Melo's career numbers his three point shooting and efficiency have gone up in NY, as has his rebounding. His win shares have shot way up in NY, even if you count his injury ravaged season last year. And all that is without the benefit of playing next to an all NBA lead guard like Durant has for his whole career. You've already said that puts Melo at a disadvantage.

Durant ripped it up when Westbrook was out. In many ways Westbrook has held him back because of his ball hogging. Now he is playing like an MVP type player but he was pretty frustrating for much of his career.

Melo has been better in NY than in Denver and that is because he became a better 3 point shooter and rebounder. He was a top 15 player here and that is damn good.

Durant? Only drunk knicks fans would even put those 2 in the same breath. Btw, Durants WS48 this year is .301!!!!! and the year that Westbrook missed half the season it was .295!!

Aldridge is a much better comp.

Knicks1969 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

mreinman wrote:
yes. he needs to play with a guy like billups because melo does not know how to share when he is in charge

Real simple answer to that: he's not a point guard.

I don't know if it is the fact that he was drafted alongside lebron and always gets compared to Lebron. but he's never going to be the playmaker lebron is. it's just not his game and never was.

you want to compare him to Durant? that's a little more fair. Durant gets about 4 assists per game (his high was 5 per game the year he won mvp) to Melo's 3 per game. now we're talking a fair comp. Durant also gets to play with one of the most electric point guards in the league though, in Westbrook. He also has Ibaka who shoots around 60% and is probably as good or better than anyone Melo has ever played with.

but if Melo could get up to Durant assist levels... i think we can all agree that'd be great.

though if you watch an OKC game sometime - it always comes down to iso Durant or iso Westbrook at the end of the game. Durant took a contested three to end (and lose) a game against the Heat in Miami last week. It was just as bad a shot as Melo's, except they had like 15 seconds on the shot clock instead of 4 and they inbounded in the front court, not the back court.

Just for giggles, Durant and Melo's career per 36 numbers. Durant is more efficient because he shoots more threes at a slightly higher percentage, but otherwise they are quite similar:

Durant per 36 career:

25.9ppg 6.6rpg 3.4apg 1.1steals 1.3 blks .482%fg .881ft% .381%3pt
field goal attempts per game 18

Melo per 36 career:

24.9ppg 6.5rpg 3.0apg 1.1steals .5blks .454%fg .818ft% .345%3pt
field goal attempts per game 19.5

His 3's are not slightly higher, they are way higher. Same for his FT's. His TS is miles higher and so is his WS48. Really bad comp. Durant is as smooth as it gets and as efficient as it gets.

How about PG? He keeps expanding his game. Melo has never really changed much. You first have to be willing to modify.

Also, you looked at Durant's career assists but if you look closer, he keeps getting better. At this point, career stats don't help us. We need him to change now. He passed great for most of the Sacramento game. I want to see more of that.

Durant's the better shooter, but if you closer at Melo's career numbers his three point shooting and efficiency have gone up in NY, as has his rebounding. His win shares have shot way up in NY, even if you count his injury ravaged season last year. And all that is without the benefit of playing next to an all NBA lead guard like Durant has for his whole career. You've already said that puts Melo at a disadvantage.

Durant ripped it up when Westbrook was out. In many ways Westbrook has held him back because of his ball hogging. Now he is playing like an MVP type player but he was pretty frustrating for much of his career.

Melo has been better in NY than in Denver and that is because he became a better 3 point shooter and rebounder. He was a top 15 player here and that is damn good.

Durant? Only drunk knicks fans would even put those 2 in the same breath. Btw, Durants WS48 this year is .301!!!!! and the year that Westbrook missed half the season it was .295!!

Aldridge is a much better comp.

Durant is also a lot more athletic then Carmelo and taller. If you were to give me a choice between the two, I would chose Durant.

Ya think?

If you gave me a choice between Curry and Nick Buckets I would take .......... uh ..........hhhmmm .... tough one ....... I'll pass

There is nothing that Carmelo does in any stat that is better than durant. Durant pretty much crushes him in every category.

And if posters want to say that Melo has done better in NY, well has anyone seen how much better durant has been over the last few years?