[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

Hinkie's Sixers: Bad Plan, Bad Execution, or both?
Author Thread
bigbasketballs
Posts: 20627
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/29/2015
Member: #6167

11/18/2015  10:04 PM
mreinman wrote:
bigbasketballs wrote:
mreinman wrote:
bigbasketballs wrote:
mreinman wrote:
bigbasketballs wrote:
mreinman wrote:You are trying to make a stab correlation that has no basis and if anything, there is data to support that mid range shots do not yield offensive rebounds. If fact, there is a better chance of getting an offensive rebound off a 3 than off a mid range j.

Bigger picture, maybe the triangle does.

LOL

Maybe players who sell ice cream in the summer get more rebounds in the winter.

Not sure I understand your response. Do you have data that answers the question?

that players who sell ice cream in the summer get more rebounds in the winter? Do you have data that proves otherwise? If you want to hypothesize then the onus is on you to make the case.

I'm not arguing, I'm asking a question. If neither of us can answer that question, that's cool by me.

I have no idea.

Don't think that you can ever compile enough usable data to begin. Nobody really runs the triangle, how would you be able to compare apples to apples?

Exactly my point. So we cannot conclude the same system that encourages an inefficient mid-range game might not also balance that out by encouraging offense rebounding.

AUTOADVERT
mreinman
Posts: 37827
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/14/2010
Member: #3189

11/18/2015  10:12 PM
bigbasketballs wrote:
mreinman wrote:
bigbasketballs wrote:
mreinman wrote:
bigbasketballs wrote:
mreinman wrote:
bigbasketballs wrote:
mreinman wrote:You are trying to make a stab correlation that has no basis and if anything, there is data to support that mid range shots do not yield offensive rebounds. If fact, there is a better chance of getting an offensive rebound off a 3 than off a mid range j.

Bigger picture, maybe the triangle does.

LOL

Maybe players who sell ice cream in the summer get more rebounds in the winter.

Not sure I understand your response. Do you have data that answers the question?

that players who sell ice cream in the summer get more rebounds in the winter? Do you have data that proves otherwise? If you want to hypothesize then the onus is on you to make the case.

I'm not arguing, I'm asking a question. If neither of us can answer that question, that's cool by me.

I have no idea.

Don't think that you can ever compile enough usable data to begin. Nobody really runs the triangle, how would you be able to compare apples to apples?

Exactly my point. So we cannot conclude the same system that encourages an inefficient mid-range game might not also balance that out by encouraging offense rebounding.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
BRIGGS
Posts: 53275
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 7/30/2002
Member: #303
11/18/2015  11:35 PM
Hinkie's horrible. How much does it take to put 1st year players on the floor--incessantly change them each year and then draft pieces that dont flow together with no attempt at finding even decent vet help? The team after 4 years of pure rebuilding is worse than ever has no identity no chemistry they are clearly worse than last year gave up all gains. I mean with what they COULDVE had already they have sht. And they were lucky to get Ok4 because they wanted Russell. Phil Jackson in on year has absolutely killed the guy--I would NEVER trust him next year--and I dont really care about ANALytics--the biggest POC nothing in basketball that I can think of. Im sure they had a lot of trouble putting together the Laker teams and Bulls teams without ANALytics.
RIP Crushalot😞
Jmpasq
Posts: 25243
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/10/2012
Member: #4182

11/19/2015  7:58 AM
mreinman wrote:wow! casual NBA fans really hate the geeks.

I'm a geek, I can't stand pompous A-holes. All I hear is how much basketball he watches,going to the ends of the earth to talk to bus drivers or what not. He is soooooo innovative yet his team still is a joke 3 years in. If he is so analytically superior, why hasn't he made trades for diamond in the rough low contract players that nobody else spotted? Let me guess, because thats no part of the plan right now, or he has swung and missed so many times that he can chalk it up to part of the plan. Hinkie is a genius in one respect, he has set himself up where he can't be questioned.

Check out My NFL Draft Prospect Videos at Youtube User Pages Jmpasq,JPdraftjedi,Jmpasqdraftjedi. www.Draftbreakdown.com
ChuckBuck
Posts: 28851
Alba Posts: 11
Joined: 1/3/2012
Member: #3806
USA
11/19/2015  8:29 AM
The mark of a genius:

Draft picks on top of draft picks! Too bad those #1 picks he has in the next couple years are lottery protected...

Don't worry one of those 2nd rounders will hit. Too bad he won't be employed long enough to see his plan come to fruition.

Knixkik
Posts: 35759
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #11
USA
11/19/2015  8:47 AM
ChuckBuck wrote:The mark of a genius:

Draft picks on top of draft picks! Too bad those #1 picks he has in the next couple years are lottery protected...

Don't worry one of those 2nd rounders will hit. Too bad he won't be employed long enough to see his plan come to fruition.

Call me crazy but this chart does not impress me. The only valuable pick he has is the LAL pick. All those 2nd round picks, I'm sure he will land a couple decent players, but most will be non rotation players or never make it from overseas. He will gamble on a lot of draft and stash, stretching the rebuild even longer. Boston's draft situation over the next 3 years is far superior to sixers.

mreinman
Posts: 37827
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/14/2010
Member: #3189

11/19/2015  9:08 AM
BRIGGS wrote:Hinkie's horrible. How much does it take to put 1st year players on the floor--incessantly change them each year and then draft pieces that dont flow together with no attempt at finding even decent vet help? The team after 4 years of pure rebuilding is worse than ever has no identity no chemistry they are clearly worse than last year gave up all gains. I mean with what they COULDVE had already they have sht. And they were lucky to get Ok4 because they wanted Russell. Phil Jackson in on year has absolutely killed the guy--I would NEVER trust him next year--and I dont really care about ANALytics--the biggest POC nothing in basketball that I can think of. Im sure they had a lot of trouble putting together the Laker teams and Bulls teams without ANALytics.

this is cave man talk. You don't care about analytics? Well guess what, EVERY SINGLE TEAM DOES!!

so here is what phil is thinking ....
GustavBahler
Posts: 42864
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

11/19/2015  9:27 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/19/2015  9:31 AM
A few years ago the Magic had a team that was good enough to make the playoffs. They had a choice, build around aging vets, go for the quick fix, or start from scratch, dump salaries and build through the draft. They went for the latter. Magic now have a great core with a dynamic backcourt.

Vujavic is coming into his own (have to give Briggs credit for mentioning him as a potential pick a few years back). They got a veteran coach in Skiles (for better or worse) and the Magic are now trying to win games. The Sixers dont seem to be interested in taking the next step anytime soon.

Hinkie kind of reminds me of General George Mclellan, the civil war general who didnt want to fight the confederate army until he had more troops, more of everything, and kept putting off an attack.

nyk4ever
Posts: 41010
Alba Posts: 12
Joined: 1/12/2005
Member: #848
USA
11/19/2015  9:46 AM
mreinman wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Hinkie's horrible. How much does it take to put 1st year players on the floor--incessantly change them each year and then draft pieces that dont flow together with no attempt at finding even decent vet help? The team after 4 years of pure rebuilding is worse than ever has no identity no chemistry they are clearly worse than last year gave up all gains. I mean with what they COULDVE had already they have sht. And they were lucky to get Ok4 because they wanted Russell. Phil Jackson in on year has absolutely killed the guy--I would NEVER trust him next year--and I dont really care about ANALytics--the biggest POC nothing in basketball that I can think of. Im sure they had a lot of trouble putting together the Laker teams and Bulls teams without ANALytics.

this is cave man talk. You don't care about analytics? Well guess what, EVERY SINGLE TEAM DOES!!

does hinkie care about analytics? if so, it seems like he's using them wrong

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
mreinman
Posts: 37827
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/14/2010
Member: #3189

11/19/2015  9:49 AM
nyk4ever wrote:
mreinman wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Hinkie's horrible. How much does it take to put 1st year players on the floor--incessantly change them each year and then draft pieces that dont flow together with no attempt at finding even decent vet help? The team after 4 years of pure rebuilding is worse than ever has no identity no chemistry they are clearly worse than last year gave up all gains. I mean with what they COULDVE had already they have sht. And they were lucky to get Ok4 because they wanted Russell. Phil Jackson in on year has absolutely killed the guy--I would NEVER trust him next year--and I dont really care about ANALytics--the biggest POC nothing in basketball that I can think of. Im sure they had a lot of trouble putting together the Laker teams and Bulls teams without ANALytics.

this is cave man talk. You don't care about analytics? Well guess what, EVERY SINGLE TEAM DOES!!

does hinkie care about analytics? if so, it seems like he's using them wrong

he may very well be. Who says that just because he relies more heavily on it that he will be good at it? Or that he is not missing other parts of the game that can use a good eye test? Or perhaps, he has a plan that we don't necessarily see, understand or agree with.

We don't really know anything here. All we can do is judge the outcome of this down the road.

Hinkie is certainly against being in NBA burgatory. He is making sure that this does not happen.

so here is what phil is thinking ....
bigbasketballs
Posts: 20627
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/29/2015
Member: #6167

11/19/2015  10:44 AM
mreinman wrote:he may very well be. Who says that just because he relies more heavily on it that he will be good at it? Or that he is not missing other parts of the game that can use a good eye test? Or perhaps, he has a plan that we don't necessarily see, understand or agree with.

We don't really know anything here. All we can do is judge the outcome of this down the road.

As previously stated, perhaps the real genius of Hinkie is that he's gotten a segment of observers, including perhaps his own owners, to buy into the indefinite wait-and-see thing.

Just the other day you were postulating that the system was making the 76ers 'completive'. 56 turnovers in 2 games later…

You seem inclined to give him more than the benefit of doubt.

But there ARE things we can make uneducated guesses about, or at least ask salient questions?

Like is it a wise idea to subject your cornerstone players to years of unprecedented losing and NOT have it have an effect?

Has any NBA big man missed his first two seasons with an injury (the same injury) and gone on to have a sound career?

We know he doesn't yet have the dominate wing pretty much a necessity to compete in the NBA.

Hinkie is certainly against being in NBA burgatory. He is making sure that this does not happen.

Is NBA burgatory a suburb of purgatory??

Burgatory is probably a little underrated.

Dallas was on the fringe for years before finally finding the right mix and going on the right run. They'd probably do it all over again (all the years of being short) for that one ring.

It was a little more than a year ago GS was seriously considering trading Thompson, thinking they had maxed out and had to tinker.

Some may dismiss Atlanta, but they went to the ECF on merit, and sometimes all you can ask for is a shot to make a Dallas like run.

Good news is, with $3m in cash and a 2017 2nd rounder to give, Knicks might find a willing taker of Williams or Calderon later this year.. so there's that.

Knixkik
Posts: 35759
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #11
USA
11/19/2015  10:53 AM
nyk4ever wrote:
mreinman wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Hinkie's horrible. How much does it take to put 1st year players on the floor--incessantly change them each year and then draft pieces that dont flow together with no attempt at finding even decent vet help? The team after 4 years of pure rebuilding is worse than ever has no identity no chemistry they are clearly worse than last year gave up all gains. I mean with what they COULDVE had already they have sht. And they were lucky to get Ok4 because they wanted Russell. Phil Jackson in on year has absolutely killed the guy--I would NEVER trust him next year--and I dont really care about ANALytics--the biggest POC nothing in basketball that I can think of. Im sure they had a lot of trouble putting together the Laker teams and Bulls teams without ANALytics.

this is cave man talk. You don't care about analytics? Well guess what, EVERY SINGLE TEAM DOES!!

does hinkie care about analytics? if so, it seems like he's using them wrong

What analytics has he even done with the Sixers? Tanking is not analytics. Acquiring a ton of protected draft picks is not analytics. I would be less critical of his strategy if he showed any signs of growth since implementing this strategy 3 drafts ago, instead of spinning his wheels hoping no one catches on.

bigbasketballs
Posts: 20627
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/29/2015
Member: #6167

11/19/2015  10:57 AM
Knixkik wrote:
nyk4ever wrote:
mreinman wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Hinkie's horrible. How much does it take to put 1st year players on the floor--incessantly change them each year and then draft pieces that dont flow together with no attempt at finding even decent vet help? The team after 4 years of pure rebuilding is worse than ever has no identity no chemistry they are clearly worse than last year gave up all gains. I mean with what they COULDVE had already they have sht. And they were lucky to get Ok4 because they wanted Russell. Phil Jackson in on year has absolutely killed the guy--I would NEVER trust him next year--and I dont really care about ANALytics--the biggest POC nothing in basketball that I can think of. Im sure they had a lot of trouble putting together the Laker teams and Bulls teams without ANALytics.

this is cave man talk. You don't care about analytics? Well guess what, EVERY SINGLE TEAM DOES!!

does hinkie care about analytics? if so, it seems like he's using them wrong

What analytics has he even done with the Sixers? Tanking is not analytics. Acquiring a ton of protected draft picks is not analytics. I would be less critical of his strategy if he showed any signs of growth since implementing this strategy 3 drafts ago, instead of spinning his wheels hoping no one catches on.

When the Sixers aren't turning the ball over, they don't shoot a lot of mid-range jumpshots, is what I believe he's referring to.

newyorknewyork
Posts: 30259
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #541
11/19/2015  11:10 AM
I don't know the 76ers situation. But just like Phil has analytic guys. What great ball minds has Hinkie surrounded himself with? They can have all the draft picks but if they can't hit on them then it doesn't matter. And even if they hit they take the best player available regardless of fit. Then probably trade some of them for future assets. Rather then building a balanced team.

With all these picks and Noel and Ok4 and Stuaskus and there Sf i forget his name. They better pair Hinkie with a ball guy to use these assets to build something up. Hinkie can collect assets. The ball guy can guide him on how turning them into fits for the roster.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
fishmike
Posts: 53902
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
11/19/2015  11:18 AM
newyorknewyork wrote:I don't know the 76ers situation. But just like Phil has analytic guys. What great ball minds has Hinkie surrounded himself with? They can have all the draft picks but if they can't hit on them then it doesn't matter. And even if they hit they take the best player available regardless of fit. Then probably trade some of them for future assets. Rather then building a balanced team.

With all these picks and Noel and Ok4 and Stuaskus and there Sf i forget his name. They better pair Hinkie with a ball guy to use these assets to build something up. Hinkie can collect assets. The ball guy can guide him on how turning them into fits for the roster.

great point. Look at what Phil's trust in Gaines has yielded. The Yankees turned around when George started trusting Gene Michael and his baseball people.

The stat humpers grossly overvalue the role. The best GMs still use their eyes. Then they ask what do the numbers tell. If the numbers tell the same story great. If the numbers tell a different story your going to... ready for it? LOOK harder. Start asking why a player who looks good doesnt have strong numbers. Important data. Not what is running the show.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
11/19/2015  1:25 PM
fishmike wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:I don't know the 76ers situation. But just like Phil has analytic guys. What great ball minds has Hinkie surrounded himself with? They can have all the draft picks but if they can't hit on them then it doesn't matter. And even if they hit they take the best player available regardless of fit. Then probably trade some of them for future assets. Rather then building a balanced team.

With all these picks and Noel and Ok4 and Stuaskus and there Sf i forget his name. They better pair Hinkie with a ball guy to use these assets to build something up. Hinkie can collect assets. The ball guy can guide him on how turning them into fits for the roster.

great point. Look at what Phil's trust in Gaines has yielded. The Yankees turned around when George started trusting Gene Michael and his baseball people.

The stat humpers grossly overvalue the role. The best GMs still use their eyes. Then they ask what do the numbers tell. If the numbers tell the same story great. If the numbers tell a different story your going to... ready for it? LOOK harder. Start asking why a player who looks good doesnt have strong numbers. Important data. Not what is running the show.


I agree. Also I pointed out many times that the Knicks had a very good brain trust and that Phil had made sure that Mark Warkentien stayed on because he valued his BBall experience. Warkentien is an Executive of the Year winner!!! He's the one that originally hired analytics Guru Dean Oliver!!! The difference is that Warkentien had a very sound philosophy on judging talent.

For years, Warkentien has evaluated players with an approach he calls "eyes-ears-numbers."

So Phil is surrounded by a nice mix of men with years of experience in judging talent and building teams. It's not just one thing. They built with a framework based on Phil's philosophies about how to build a winning team. Phil didn't just hang out doing weed. This man has always been a student of not just the game but WHY teams win. That's something his detractors have seemed to ignore. It's deeper than stats or X's and O's with Phil. Phil also spends a ton of time in assessing the intangibles of winning basketball. That's why Character was so important to him as well.

CrushAlot
Posts: 59764
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
11/19/2015  8:54 PM
Bobby Marks was on Fox Sports Radio this morning. He said Philly is at least 3-4 years away from competing for a playoff spot. He also talked about how the Sixers being this bad might stunt Brett Brown's development as a coach. He compared him to David Carr on the Texans. He also talked about how important fit was for a rookie and said Porzingis was in a good place in NY with the organization and team with a guy like Melo on it. He talked about another rookie being in what might be a bad fit (D'Angelo Russell?) but it was early and I might not be remembering correctly.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
TPercy
Posts: 28010
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/5/2014
Member: #5748

11/19/2015  9:59 PM
Bad plan really. While I agree there definitely is sports science being much more present in todays NBA, making a team does require things that simply can't be quantified in stats such as Veterans, role players, energy guys. A concrete example is right in front of us! Look at how having incredibly hard working players of our team has completely changed influenced the environment and the course of our team. We have guys like Derrick Williams playing harder than he has ever played in his life, and one could make a case for it being the same reason as to why Melo is playing incredible defense this season. It now appears that we have a much more stable and positive environment for our young buckets to develop into something incredible.How can you draft a bunch of superstars and expect them to ball in such losing and low spirited team? While Philys style of play looks really nice on its day, their lack of the essential things as mentioned is going to prevent them from ever reaching any significant imo.
The Future is Bright!
Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
11/20/2015  6:16 AM
fishmike wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:I don't know the 76ers situation. But just like Phil has analytic guys. What great ball minds has Hinkie surrounded himself with? They can have all the draft picks but if they can't hit on them then it doesn't matter. And even if they hit they take the best player available regardless of fit. Then probably trade some of them for future assets. Rather then building a balanced team.

With all these picks and Noel and Ok4 and Stuaskus and there Sf i forget his name. They better pair Hinkie with a ball guy to use these assets to build something up. Hinkie can collect assets. The ball guy can guide him on how turning them into fits for the roster.

great point. Look at what Phil's trust in Gaines has yielded. The Yankees turned around when George started trusting Gene Michael and his baseball people.

The stat humpers grossly overvalue the role. The best GMs still use their eyes. Then they ask what do the numbers tell. If the numbers tell the same story great. If the numbers tell a different story your going to... ready for it? LOOK harder. Start asking why a player who looks good doesnt have strong numbers. Important data. Not what is running the show.


Is there anyone here who would disagree with this?
Ira
Posts: 24692
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/14/2001
Member: #91
11/20/2015  7:37 AM
They seem to be in good shape right now at center, power forward and point guard (with undrafted rookie T J McConnell). It may take a little more time, but that franchise is headed up.
Hinkie's Sixers: Bad Plan, Bad Execution, or both?

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy