nixluva wrote:This is the problem with the way Detroit's offense operated. They wanted to run High PnR and have one big in the post, Drummond because he had no ability at all to hit a jump shot from mid range. Monroe may not have been very good but he could actually make a few. So they played this way when both bigs were on the floor. It's the worst way to use Monroe.

In the Triangle you have two post players and it's a much better fit for bigs that you want to be closer to the basket.

You still have enough space to make cuts and attack the basket with your wings. It's a tried and tested system. We know it works. We just need to put better talent in the system.

Nixluva go look up how many jumpshots WCS hit in the kast 3 years under 20%

BRIGGS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:nixluva--just stop please. Andre Drummond avg 14 points 13 rebounds a game his last 2 years and when Monroe went down he avg 20 a game. He should surpass Dwight Howard next year and then all of a sudden Willie Stein will be a better player?

Nixluva--Drummond did better in year 1 at Uconn than Wilie Stein did all 3 years at Kentucky and he was 17 years old. Lets be fair Drummond is an NBA all star Willie Stein had 2 points and 5 rebounds in a championship game in college.

Nixluva--there is a high probabilty that Willie Steins career is back up C or as secondary starting C. IF he comes here and they try sht like putting him on John Wall it will be a joke.

BRIGGS the difference between our arguments is that i'm laying out for you EXACTLY how things would work for the Knicks with Monroe and WCS and you keep talking about Andre Drummond. Saying Drummond is a good player and better playing 4 out 1 in minus Monroe isn't proving that Monroe would be bad in the Triangle here which is designed for 2 post players!!! You aren't proving your point talking about how good Drummond is. You have to actually explain why the Triangle would suddenly not work with 2 post bigs when it's designed to work that way.

The Knicks need to improve dramatically on defense and adding WCS and a player like Carroll would accomplish that. Monroe is a solid post man, passer and rebounder and those players would make sense together. Now if WCS actually did improve his mid range jumper and his Jump hook, then we'd really be cooking and that is still a possibility. You can't say that he will never get better offensively, but even if he's stuck in Tyson Chandler alleyoop mode he'd still be a plus for this team due to his defense.

Nixluva

in this line up

C-Stein
F Monroe
F Carmelo
G Carroll
G Calderon--who is your penetrators?

C-Stein
F Monroe
F Carmelo
G Carroll
G Shved

Melo, Shved.

BRIGGS wrote:

martin wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:nixluva--just stop please. Andre Drummond avg 14 points 13 rebounds a game his last 2 years and when Monroe went down he avg 20 a game. He should surpass Dwight Howard next year and then all of a sudden Willie Stein will be a better player?

Nixluva--Drummond did better in year 1 at Uconn than Wilie Stein did all 3 years at Kentucky and he was 17 years old. Lets be fair Drummond is an NBA all star Willie Stein had 2 points and 5 rebounds in a championship game in college.

Nixluva--there is a high probabilty that Willie Steins career is back up C or as secondary starting C. IF he comes here and they try sht like putting him on John Wall it will be a joke.

BRIGGS the difference between our arguments is that i'm laying out for you EXACTLY how things would work for the Knicks with Monroe and WCS and you keep talking about Andre Drummond. Saying Drummond is a good player and better playing 4 out 1 in minus Monroe isn't proving that Monroe would be bad in the Triangle here which is designed for 2 post players!!! You aren't proving your point talking about how good Drummond is. You have to actually explain why the Triangle would suddenly not work with 2 post bigs when it's designed to work that way.

The Knicks need to improve dramatically on defense and adding WCS and a player like Carroll would accomplish that. Monroe is a solid post man, passer and rebounder and those players would make sense together. Now if WCS actually did improve his mid range jumper and his Jump hook, then we'd really be cooking and that is still a possibility. You can't say that he will never get better offensively, but even if he's stuck in Tyson Chandler alleyoop mode he'd still be a plus for this team due to his defense.

Nixluva

in this line up

C-Stein
F Monroe
F Carmelo
G Carroll
G Calderon--who is your penetrators?

C-Stein
F Monroe
F Carmelo
G Carroll
G Shved

Melo, Shved.

Thats weak with no speed.

No one said you were building a playoff contender in 1 offseason. Parts.

martin wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

martin wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:nixluva--just stop please. Andre Drummond avg 14 points 13 rebounds a game his last 2 years and when Monroe went down he avg 20 a game. He should surpass Dwight Howard next year and then all of a sudden Willie Stein will be a better player?

Nixluva--Drummond did better in year 1 at Uconn than Wilie Stein did all 3 years at Kentucky and he was 17 years old. Lets be fair Drummond is an NBA all star Willie Stein had 2 points and 5 rebounds in a championship game in college.

Nixluva--there is a high probabilty that Willie Steins career is back up C or as secondary starting C. IF he comes here and they try sht like putting him on John Wall it will be a joke.

BRIGGS the difference between our arguments is that i'm laying out for you EXACTLY how things would work for the Knicks with Monroe and WCS and you keep talking about Andre Drummond. Saying Drummond is a good player and better playing 4 out 1 in minus Monroe isn't proving that Monroe would be bad in the Triangle here which is designed for 2 post players!!! You aren't proving your point talking about how good Drummond is. You have to actually explain why the Triangle would suddenly not work with 2 post bigs when it's designed to work that way.

The Knicks need to improve dramatically on defense and adding WCS and a player like Carroll would accomplish that. Monroe is a solid post man, passer and rebounder and those players would make sense together. Now if WCS actually did improve his mid range jumper and his Jump hook, then we'd really be cooking and that is still a possibility. You can't say that he will never get better offensively, but even if he's stuck in Tyson Chandler alleyoop mode he'd still be a plus for this team due to his defense.

Nixluva

in this line up

C-Stein
F Monroe
F Carmelo
G Carroll
G Calderon--who is your penetrators?

C-Stein
F Monroe
F Carmelo
G Carroll
G Shved

Melo, Shved.

Thats weak with no speed.

No one said you were building a playoff contender in 1 offseason. Parts.

I guess but we will win 25 games next year as teams run right past us.

nixluva wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:nixluva--just stop please. Andre Drummond avg 14 points 13 rebounds a game his last 2 years and when Monroe went down he avg 20 a game. He should surpass Dwight Howard next year and then all of a sudden Willie Stein will be a better player?

Nixluva--Drummond did better in year 1 at Uconn than Wilie Stein did all 3 years at Kentucky and he was 17 years old. Lets be fair Drummond is an NBA all star Willie Stein had 2 points and 5 rebounds in a championship game in college.

Nixluva--there is a high probabilty that Willie Steins career is back up C or as secondary starting C. IF he comes here and they try sht like putting him on John Wall it will be a joke.

BRIGGS the difference between our arguments is that i'm laying out for you EXACTLY how things would work for the Knicks with Monroe and WCS and you keep talking about Andre Drummond. Saying Drummond is a good player and better playing 4 out 1 in minus Monroe isn't proving that Monroe would be bad in the Triangle here which is designed for 2 post players!!! You aren't proving your point talking about how good Drummond is. You have to actually explain why the Triangle would suddenly not work with 2 post bigs when it's designed to work that way.

The Knicks need to improve dramatically on defense and adding WCS and a player like Carroll would accomplish that. Monroe is a solid post man, passer and rebounder and those players would make sense together. Now if WCS actually did improve his mid range jumper and his Jump hook, then we'd really be cooking and that is still a possibility. You can't say that he will never get better offensively, but even if he's stuck in Tyson Chandler alleyoop mode he'd still be a plus for this team due to his defense.

Nixluva

in this line up

C-Stein
F Monroe
F Carmelo
G Carroll
G Calderon--who is your penetrators?

Why does it have to be Calderon? I'm pretty sure Jose is going to be a reserve. It could easily be Shved or Galloway. In fact Phil could find a new guard who is a god penetrator if he needs that. Fast guards are pretty plentiful coming out of college every year. A few go undrafted every year.

The thing is that this offense isn't so much about dribble penetration as it is about post penetration and wings slashing and cutting to the basket. It's about player movement and passing. This isn't really about dribble driving all the time. You have 2 bigs near the basket and wings cutting and slashing. You have your guard in the Pinch Post 2 man game with a wide open side of the floor to attack the basket. That's what Shved was doing.

Also you will get more fast breaks with the kind of defense this team should be able to play. More transition baskets should be possible with great shot blocking and a few steals.

nixluva we won 17 games last year. If we do this plan well win 25 no big deal I guess improvement right?

BRIGGS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

martin wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:nixluva--just stop please. Andre Drummond avg 14 points 13 rebounds a game his last 2 years and when Monroe went down he avg 20 a game. He should surpass Dwight Howard next year and then all of a sudden Willie Stein will be a better player?

Nixluva--Drummond did better in year 1 at Uconn than Wilie Stein did all 3 years at Kentucky and he was 17 years old. Lets be fair Drummond is an NBA all star Willie Stein had 2 points and 5 rebounds in a championship game in college.

Nixluva--there is a high probabilty that Willie Steins career is back up C or as secondary starting C. IF he comes here and they try sht like putting him on John Wall it will be a joke.

BRIGGS the difference between our arguments is that i'm laying out for you EXACTLY how things would work for the Knicks with Monroe and WCS and you keep talking about Andre Drummond. Saying Drummond is a good player and better playing 4 out 1 in minus Monroe isn't proving that Monroe would be bad in the Triangle here which is designed for 2 post players!!! You aren't proving your point talking about how good Drummond is. You have to actually explain why the Triangle would suddenly not work with 2 post bigs when it's designed to work that way.

The Knicks need to improve dramatically on defense and adding WCS and a player like Carroll would accomplish that. Monroe is a solid post man, passer and rebounder and those players would make sense together. Now if WCS actually did improve his mid range jumper and his Jump hook, then we'd really be cooking and that is still a possibility. You can't say that he will never get better offensively, but even if he's stuck in Tyson Chandler alleyoop mode he'd still be a plus for this team due to his defense.

Nixluva

in this line up

C-Stein
F Monroe
F Carmelo
G Carroll
G Calderon--who is your penetrators?

C-Stein
F Monroe
F Carmelo
G Carroll
G Shved

Melo, Shved.

Thats weak with no speed.

Carroll is not slow. Shved is not slow. WCS ran 3.15 3/4 sprint. Monroe is not slow end to end either. Just cuz they're big doesn't mean they can't get up and down. What do you mean it's weak tho?

No one in the unit has a quick first step not even one player--I wont say sht--youll find out.

Watch this video on Monroe and you'll see in his strengths that he's a very good athlete for a man his size.

You're making up our mind about this lineup because you don't like the players but you're not using facts to back up the claims you're making about the players.

wargames wrote:Another scenario that could happen if the rumors are true next year is:

C Monroe
PF Melo
sf/sg Winslow
sg/sf Carroll
pg Galloway

Its not pretty but it could be very successful. The back court would be very good defensively and could shoot the 3 or slash to the hoop if open. Also that back court would do well in transition. Also all the players in the back court are above avg rebounders for their position. The front court would have the ability to pass out to shooters and score in the post. Melo and Monroe would have good spacing and would carry the majority of offensive load. The only real issue would be defense in the paint.

Holy sht Winslow is SOOOOO MUCH better than Stein. I can still dig Winslow for sure hes a player--go look at this guy Danilo Fuzaro as well--hes in this draft(late 1 early 2) Also Jordan Mickey and Pat Connughton. I cant hide that Im a Kaminsky fan--would settle for Porzingis But Winslow or Mudiay are acceptable to me. Id rather TRADE down to a deal with Boston and a third team where I pick up some additional picks Id be happy with Winslow at 6-7 if thats the case. I want to steer clear of Willie Stein--I hate guys who play like him shows up one game gone the next with no feel for the game. Its an INSULT to mention him with Dennis Rodman he gave 125% every second.

nixluva wrote:

wargames wrote:Another scenario that could happen if the rumors are true next year is:

C Monroe
PF Melo
sf/sg Winslow
sg/sf Carroll
pg Galloway

Its not pretty but it could be very successful. The back court would be very good defensively and could shoot the 3 or slash to the hoop if open. Also that back court would do well in transition. Also all the players in the back court are above avg rebounders for their position. The front court would have the ability to pass out to shooters and score in the post. Melo and Monroe would have good spacing and would carry the majority of offensive load. The only real issue would be defense in the paint.

Yes that's not a bad idea but I think we could still draft WCS for his D and still put a similar lineup on the floor with a SG who may not be as good as Winslow but may have similar talents. Basically Winslow's role would be a 2 way SG and i'm sure that Phil could find a player that could give you 75-80% of what Winslow would give you. WCS tho would be the piece that I'd find hard to replace. WCS makes it work with Monroe at PF/C. You could also run some 4 Out 1 in for a change of pace with WCS as the big roll man.

Whats funny is what happens if Russell is there at 4? How will that lineup look? Still need a WCS type of defender at center, or hope Monroe or other center FA's can play defense. But seems like we will have the same defensive issues we have now. Teams are not afraid to attack the rim on us. Thats why everybody takes open 3's.....With a defender near the rim, the guards can play their man much tighter, and reduce all those open 3's.....If not WCS, then who? There are other bigs with defensive potential in the draft, we just have to buy into the first round. Turner comes to mind.

BRIGGS wrote:

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

wargames wrote:Another scenario that could happen if the rumors are true next year is:

C Monroe
PF Melo
sf/sg Winslow
sg/sf Carroll
pg Galloway

Its not pretty but it could be very successful. The back court would be very good defensively and could shoot the 3 or slash to the hoop if open. Also that back court would do well in transition. Also all the players in the back court are above avg rebounders for their position. The front court would have the ability to pass out to shooters and score in the post. Melo and Monroe would have good spacing and would carry the majority of offensive load. The only real issue would be defense in the paint.

Yes that's not a bad idea but I think we could still draft WCS for his D and still put a similar lineup on the floor with a SG who may not be as good as Winslow but may have similar talents. Basically Winslow's role would be a 2 way SG and i'm sure that Phil could find a player that could give you 75-80% of what Winslow would give you. WCS tho would be the piece that I'd find hard to replace. WCS makes it work with Monroe at PF/C. You could also run some 4 Out 1 in for a change of pace with WCS as the big roll man.

Whats funny is what happens if Russell is there at 4? How will that lineup look? Still need a WCS type of defender at center, or hope Monroe or other center FA's can play defense. But seems like we will have the same defensive issues we have now. Teams are not afraid to attack the rim on us. Thats why everybody takes open 3's.....With a defender near the rim, the guards can play their man much tighter, and reduce all those open 3's.....If not WCS, then who? There are other bigs with defensive potential in the draft, we just have to buy into the first round. Turner comes to mind.

Then you take him.

My guess is Phil would take Russell and look for a defensive big who comes close to what WCS can offer. He was very clear about the need for a big who can defend not just the paint but also PnR out in space. There is more than one way to skin a cat as they say. I'm sure they have a contingency plan for if they took someone else besides WCS at this point. It's too much of a distinct possibility. I may prefer WCS but that can change depending on who falls to us at that point.

I don't know what's worse - to have a team with no real lead guards or to have a team with a gaping hole in the middle. The problem is that top flight guards rarely become free agents anymore it seems. It might make the most sense to draft one of those since they are so hard to acquire otherwise. Mudiay scares me and seems like a horrible fit at PG for the triangle, but maybe I'm wrong about him.

smackeddog wrote:

callmened wrote:are we as knicks fan truly going to fall for this? lol

Ha ha! Looks like it!

Let the hilarity begin. A few days ago when I suggested that Carroll, Butler, or Middleton could be signed I was lectured about Restricted Free agency. Now that its rumored that we CAN in fact sign one of these guys, critics come out of the woodwork to criticize such a signing.

LOL.

Look, the Knicks are in the drivers seat with this. If the agent tells the Knicks that Carroll is not just blowing smoke then the Knicks have their man. The threshold for securing Carroll is twofold. First is to load a contract so that it is just enough unacceptable to Atlanta to swallow (refer to the Jeremy Lin fiasco). Second, make the contract so desirable that Carroll cannot say no. This is a formula that will work for any restricted free agent the Knicks want to sign.

Given that there are three or four players the Knicks may want to sign, there's an urgency for the player who is serious about playing in NY to sign an offer sheet quick and decisively - snooze, you lose.

Carroll has been called the heart and soul of the Hawks as well as a "LEADER". This guy is your Batman for Melo. He's got a streak of Oakley in his game and demeanor.

This signing is a no-brainer, IMO.

So the final objections. A max contract? Sure, if you have to. This year's max will look average in two years.