When Kentucky got to SEC play to the finals 18 SEC 6 Tourney games here it is in 24 games a a junior

He was afforded 30 minutes a night on avg

In those 24 games Stein had 10 or more rebounds 4 times

In those 24 games Stein 1 double double

In those 24 games Stein had a total of 6 double digit scoring games

In those 24 games Stein had 6 points or less 9 times

And lets step up to better teams

In the Tourney Willie Stein averaged 6.2 points 6.2 rebounds 2.3 blocks 1 assists shot 41% from the field and really Kentucky shouldve been out against Notre Dame and in his last two games vs ND and Wisconsin did not even ATTEMPT a FT in 66 minutes of play.

In his two biggest games as an upperclassmen

His stat line

33 minutes 4 points 4.5 rebounds 2 blocks

BRIGGS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

nixluva wrote:

crzymdups wrote:There are reports that Boston wants to move up to 4 to take Willie Cauley Stein. Ainge has a pretty good draft record.

Yeah I read that. Boston can make a pretty good offer but I don't think Phil would bite and give a competitor what he wants. Just the fact that Ainge is interested makes it even more likely Phil would take WCS.

There are a few defensive centers in Free Agency but NONE of them are as fast as WCS. The dude is a freak of nature. His value in the NBA is huge because the floor is spread so much more than in college BB. The use of PnR in the NBA is much higher. Having a C who can shut down PnR and still recover to the paint is huge. He already knows what to do on D.

I agree completely with the second part.

The first part I have no idea about - I can't claim to know what Phil will do on draft night. If it's WCS, I'll be happy.

Well i'm making an educated guess. Mudiay may be really talented but if he doesn't show signs he could be a game changer I think Phil will go for WCS and look to build his team on that foundation of defense up the middle. It's a tough call but most of the time these guards are all in the same range. What are the chances this kid is elite like Curry, Westbrook or Harden? There seems to always be another guard coming along every year. Great defensive C's are more rare. Phil and his staff will have tough decisions to make.

What is defense in the middle when these teams are taking 30 3's and spreading the floor. A guy like Kaminsky will have three times the strategic value that WCS has. You watch with Kaminsky--he's going to make teams cry they passed on him. The danger zone is if he goes to Detroit at 8 with the way they want to play. Right now Clevland will win the EC for the next 3-4 years hands down unless LBJ gets hurt. Their owner is a spender--I think they close down LBJs minutes to keep him fresh and they have been excellent at adding pieces. The team doesnt even need K love in fact I think he might be a addition by subtraction. But a team with Kamnisky--IF Kaminsky is aggressive and coached right--hes going to be scary from the PF. I think in his prime a basic night for Frank will be something like this

23 points 8-15 3-7/3's 4-5 FT 8 rebounds 5 assists 1 block 1 steal 37 minutes

I like Kaminsky but IMO he's not what the Knicks need the most. The Knicks need to be able to defend the PnR and for our perimeter defenders to be able to defend more aggressively without fear of their man driving by them. That's the Importance of having WCS in the middle. He's so fast that he can help and still recover to protect the paint. It's not just size but fast size. Size with range defensively.

Also he runs the floor so well that this team will play faster offensively too. Phil is looking to restock the team with defensive players who can defend the perimeter too. Gallo is a good defender and we'll be bringing in Thanasis and maybe even that Labeyrie kid who seems to be a high energy guy.

Yeah the Knicks need a 7-1 PF who will sit in the paint with Greg Monroe and shut down our driving lanes and make us play 4-5. Did you watch the tournament? If so can you find a player named Willie Stein--he seemed to go awol. In his biggest game of his life he goes 2 points 5 rebounds. The first time some of you guys who dont watch enough CBB see him not engaged you will remember this post. I dont care what anyone else says--Willie Stein has bust written on his forehead if drafted this high.

I'm telling you this is not what they will have WCS doing. I've shown before how the Knicks teach their bigs to move and setup on offense and this offense is designed to work with 2 bigs. You can't look at how the guy was used in UK's offense and in the college game and then apply that directly to how he'll be used offensively in the NBA and in the Triangle.

The Triangle is one of the few offenses that are designed to work with 2 post players. The motion and spacing is prescribed to allow penetration. The Triangle side of the floor is overloaded but the Pinch Post side of the floor is wide open. This is why Shved was able to be so successful attacking the basket. WCS will be able to function well enough in this offense. There is so much motion in this offense. WCS moves very well and the'll teach him how to move to the open spots when he doesn't have the ball and will have the lane to attack the basket.

Some folks supporting Stein are also supporting the Triangle, and I just don't see him as a Triangle big.

Even if he shows a jumper in workouts, I wonder if that will translate into a reliable shot come game time, because there are times when the high energy types simply rush things or lose their composure. This might be good for some aspects of the game, but if he cannot make a 15 foot jumper or make the correct decisions as a passer, he is useless.

I don't want a highlight reel guy who cannot handle all the aspects of the game. I've said it earlier in this thread, Stein is a guy who had 3 years with a team that produces some great bigs, and none of the competition he must have gone through in practice seems to have rubbed off on him. He does not even have a good back to the basket game after all these years, despite his size, quickness, and athletic ability.

He's a niche player looking for the right team. We need a complete player. This is not the guy.

crzymdups wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

crzymdups wrote:There are reports that Boston wants to move up to 4 to take Willie Cauley Stein. Ainge has a pretty good draft record.

Problem is, the Celtics aren't picking until 16, which too low for my liking in this draft. They do have 2 picks though, and 3 first rounders next year.

If the C's want 4 they can go get us Frank Kamninsky and add in picks 28(Fuzaro) and 45 Connughton. If they can flip their 16 pick down some into Kamisky--Ill do that deal for them.

I'd do Kaminsky and pick 16 (Jerian Grant) for pick 4. Nothing less.

In our system, I think Jerian Grant will have the same impact as Mudiay on offense, but with better defense.

I would love to get WCS and Grant in this draft. I think scoring bigs with a mid range jump shot are easy to find. That's what we have now. 7fter's with cat like defense are very hard to find. Every championship team has a guy like this. Especially during Phils championship years.

Dennis Rodman won a championship with 3 different teams....And he was labeled as offensively challenged. Bulls, Lakers, Detroit

Scoring bigs usually get fans upset because on the days when they are not scoring, they don't add any real value. This is why we get upset at Melo sometimes. We need more players that add value regardless if they are scoring or not.

nixluva wrote:The NBA game is just different in so many ways. A kid like WCS who has the range on D will translate well in the NBA. In college everything is so crowded inside in comparison to the NBA. Especially when you play these teams that are playing 4 out 1 in. A defender like WCS is a very useful defender in that he has such great range and lateral quickness. We can do things defensively with WCS that we wouldn't be able to do with a more lumbering big. I would love to have him on this team.

I know there are issues with his offense. Mainly it has been his confidence. He actually has ability on offense. I think being here he will get so many touches that he'll gain confidence in his offense. That's one of the things I love about this offense. The bigs are constantly touching the ball and staying involved in the offense. I think it keeps them sharp mentally. There is no loafing time in this offense. Everyone has a role and has to be paying attention to what the defense does and what they need to do.

Some people might hate on Jared Jefferies, but we all saw how valuable he was on defense, guarding PG's up top. WCS is similar, but he can also guard centers.....and his hands are clearly better than Jefferies. If an old, uncoordinated player, with weak hands like Jared Jefferies was able to anchor our defense, imagine what WCS can do at age 21.....

nixluva wrote:

blkexec wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

crzymdups wrote:There are reports that Boston wants to move up to 4 to take Willie Cauley Stein. Ainge has a pretty good draft record.

Problem is, the Celtics aren't picking until 16, which too low for my liking in this draft. They do have 2 picks though, and 3 first rounders next year.

If the C's want 4 they can go get us Frank Kamninsky and add in picks 28(Fuzaro) and 45 Connughton. If they can flip their 16 pick down some into Kamisky--Ill do that deal for them.

I'd do Kaminsky and pick 16 (Jerian Grant) for pick 4. Nothing less.

In our system, I think Jerian Grant will have the same impact as Mudiay on offense, but with better defense.

I would love to get WCS and Grant in this draft. I think scoring bigs with a mid range jump shot are easy to find. That's what we have now. 7fter's with cat like defense are very hard to find. Every championship team has a guy like this. Especially during Phils championship years.

Dennis Rodman won a championship with 3 different teams....And he was labeled as offensively challenged. Bulls, Lakers, Detroit

Scoring bigs usually get fans upset because on the days when they are not scoring, they don't add any real value. This is why we get upset at Melo sometimes. We need more players that add value regardless if they are scoring or not.

I would want WCS and Jerian. Kaminsky is a great offensive big, but he doesn't move the needle for this team defensively. That's the side of the floor i'm most concerned with. We'll add scoring with so much cap space. WCS is a rare beast in terms of his range and quickness on D. A 7'er who can stay with a fast guard the entire length of the court is almost unheard of.

+1 Rodman is the only name I can think of....and WCS is 5 inches taller. Imagine if Rodman was 7 feet tall, and played the game the same way. He would be worth a number 1 pick....Why can't WCS play that same role and bring that same defensive intensity.

BRIGGS wrote:here are some facts from Willie Stein

When Kentucky got to SEC play to the finals 18 SEC 6 Tourney games here it is in 24 games a a junior

He was afforded 30 minutes a night on avg

In those 24 games Stein had 10 or more rebounds 4 times

In those 24 games Stein 1 double double

In those 24 games Stein had a total of 6 double digit scoring games

In those 24 games Stein had 6 points or less 9 times

And lets step up to better teams

In the Tourney Willie Stein averaged 6.2 points 6.2 rebounds 2.3 blocks 1 assists shot 41% from the field and really Kentucky shouldve been out against Notre Dame and in his last two games vs ND and Wisconsin did not even ATTEMPT a FT in 66 minutes of play.

In his two biggest games as an upperclassmen

His stat line

33 minutes 4 points 4.5 rebounds 2 blocks

That's a great find....Unfortunately you can't measure Stein based on stats. Offensive players are different.....It's all about stats. I'm a defensive (lock down) player.....in my prime. I had a conversation with an old buddy of mine. He told me in order to have a chance against us, they had to run their offense on the opposite side of where I was. It's like football....lock down corners don't show up in the stat sheet. Because the offense decides not to throw the ball in their direction. If you just look at stats, you will miss the value in lock down corners. It's the same for rim protectors and PnR defenders in basketball.

crzymdups wrote:

blkexec wrote:

+1 Rodman is the only name I can think of....and WCS is 5 inches taller. Imagine if Rodman was 7 feet tall, and played the game the same way. He would be worth a number 1 pick....Why can't WCS play that same role and bring that same defensive intensity.

I love Stein, but he's not the rebounder Rodman was. Rodman was one of the best rebounders the league has ever seen at 6'7" - just amazing sense of where to be and when - he could read where the ball was going to come off the rim when it was in the air.

Stein is different. I could see him having a Camby or Noah like impact on defense. Noah is the guy he most reminds me of, though he's not the passer Noah is.

He's a decent shooter though - he makes 33% of his mid-range jumpers, which is pretty much in line with bigs like Monroe. Mid-range jumper is possible to improve and he's shown he has the ability by improving his FT shooting every year by more than ten percent per year.

Kaminsky is a great shooter - he's got dribble drive ability... but he's not a good defender at all. I worry he'll be too much like Bargnani - sort of awkward and a little slow to react on D and not as effective if he isn't a centerpiece on offense.

I'm not trying to say WCS is a rebounder like Rodman....My point is he will impact the defense like Rodman impacts defense. Rodman was a shut down defender with no offense and he still adds value. Just because a player is labeled as a defender, doesn't mean he's not going to produce wins. Bargs is great on offense, but does his offense produce wins? Does his offense make others better? Kaminsky would be a great addition, don't get me wrong......I just think WCS will add more to the team winning games, vs adding a player that just puts up stats, while his player puts up similar stats....Like Melo....He can score 100 points.....That doesn't mean we will win, if his man scores 101 points.

blkexec wrote:Offense keeps you in the game.

Defense wins games.

You need them both.....it just depends how you build your team. Do you pick a defender with cat like defense or a big that can shoot 3 pointers? You need them both, but which one do you pick first? Phil, just like most coaches with multiple rings, will always lean towards defense first. Then they add in offensive specialist. In todays game, just go to any gym.....Watch the biggest guy play ball.....I bet he has a similar cross over as guards....and always shooting a 3 or a jump shot. The game is different now, and offensive bigs are plentiful. It's all about supply and demand. You always pick up the demand first, because there's a lot in supply.

I agree. I'm all for building a team. I think with a high usage offensive star like Melo in the fold, it makes sense to have an elite defender like Stein around.

Here is a breakdown of Kaminsky vs Towns and Stein. It's mostly Kaminsky vs Towns, with a little Stein. Stein had a terrible game with some standout defensive plays - mostly it seemed Wisconsin was able to use screens to get Kentucky to switch and create mismatches for Kaminsky. I don't think this is the definitive judgment on Stein, but it shows none of these guys are finished products yet. That said, man, I wish we had a shot at Towns. Kaminsky played well.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Willie-Cauley-Stein-Workout-Video-and-Interview-5045

If we drafted him, would you go all out for Love/Aldridge or move Melo to PF, and just target Carroll, and keep the space to either absorb a contract for pick, keep the space for next year or fill in the roster with Danny green and Beverley?

WCS is he is very economical as he fills an expensive position cheaply. He's more of a move that may pay off in next years free agency, rather than this season. I wouldn't sign Greg Monroe if we picked him.