Bonn1997 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

nixluva wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote: i like optimism but i think sometimes you are too optimistic that you lose touch with reality a bit. I think we will be better next year based on the fact that we have a lottery pick and cap space. However im careful not to get ahead of myself because its possible we lose out on the big free agents and our draft pick might struggle at first you never know

See that's the thing, I'm not making the argument that our draft pick has to be great from day one. It's more important that in the long run he turns into a core part of the team we can rely on. Hopefully if we're lucky we can end up with a franchise player, but as i've said repeatedly there are no guarantees in the draft. So i'm not getting ahead of myself. All i'm doing is stating the fact that we have a chance to add a good player in the draft. 1st we have to see what spot we get in the lottery.

As for free agents i'm also not saying we have to end up with big names. This is why I kept bringing up the Hawks who didn't add any unattainable players. Korver, Millsap, Carroll and Schroder aren't the level of players we can't get in NY. There will be a lot of 2nd tier guys we have a shot at getting. So IMO it's not going out on a limb to be optimistic. We have our pick and cap space to go after the players we want and need. How that all works out is up in the air but we have a good shot to improve the team.

Dude base on your post, if I didn't know better i would think you were related to phil and fisher. You have yet to hold them responsible for anything negative. They have screwed up the franchise pretty badly, and your optimism consist of words like "if were lucky" "hopefully" "5 years from now"

If phil says something and contradicts himself, you have a full excuse waiting, you bitched like crazy about woodsons rotation, yet fisher plays 15 guys in 10 minutes and your happy and all on board.

If fisher and phil raped JILL MARTIN, you would blame her for teasing them and where skimpy clothing. I mean it's gotten that bad with you, and we have been posting together for over 10 yrs, but lately you have been phil and fishers biggest supporter,probably bigger then dolan himself, and i just dont get it.

Do you posters who go into a tantrum when you read optimistic posts, have no internal filter? Do you ever sit back and read what you've just written and think "Maybe I'm over reacting a little"? Or do you just type a load of crap in a fury and instantly hit the post button? We've gone from comparing people who are optimistic to ****, terrorists and now rape. Go get some perspective, it's just fricking basketball.

I actually don't know why it's gotten this bad. Most of what i'm saying is rather bland and not very controversial. We have a chance at a top pick and we have cap space to revamp the top of the rotation with better players. What is so outlandish about saying that? If anyone looks at my statements above what is overly rah rah about them?

Suggesting we could do something similar to what the Hawks did, when they clearly didn't add any big time players in order to form a winning team. That's about as realistic as we can get in terms of trying to revamp the roster this summer. Basically 2nd tier Free Agents are all the Hawks added, so why can't the Knicks do that? It's not that out of the realm of possibility. I'd say it's fairly doable.

Yeah, I don't get it either. I can be quite cynical in life, but I don't lose the plot when I hear someone feeling more upbeat about the future.

Don't let fans from other teams come onto a knick site to stop your happiness. If you want to be optimistic about the knicks on a knicks site designed for optimistic knick fans, have at it. The fact that this is even a discussion and / or a thread that hasn't been deleted is a problem within itself.

Maybe because I live outside of NY and I see all the hate from just being a knick fan. It's like other teams can't believe the knicks still have fans. And just wearing the colors orange and blue gets people upset. But I expect that from non knick fans. It's part of being a knick fan. But this knicks and knicks crime has to stop!

The site is designed for Knicks love. It has nothing to do with optimism (or pessimism). If you love your C student son, you tell him not to apply to Harvard. You don't misinterpret his mediocre grades as being outstanding just because you love him.

If you've had a C student for 15 years, telling him every day that you are simply a C student and currently have no chance at being a B student due to your parents management style, is not the best way to see your child improve. Also getting angry at your childs friends or support system who believe in him, is not the best strategy for any parent.

Good Analogy!

I agree with all your points - you are helping the analogy. The parallel would be here many people wanting the Knicks to improve by trading Melo for cap space and overhauling the organization from the top (ideally starting with Dolan). Further, you'd get very angry at people telling your son to keep doing what he's been doing - just like people here get angry at those supporting (whether verbally or financially) Dolan for putting up bad teams.
Even if you don't like the analogy, you should be able to comprehend that love and optimism are simply different, unrelated concepts.

I agree, but here's the issue. Dolan is the parent. And until the adoption agency comes in and removes him from being a parent, Dolan will continue to be Dolan, who continue to throw around money at players and GM's who may or may not deserve it. So optimistic fans try and figure out how to succeed under this bad parental guidance. What are the positives we can hold onto, while under his mis-management style. I'm not a Melo fan, never have been. I don't think he should be a max player. But I'm a bigger Knick fan, which goes above Melo and Dolan. So until Dolan is removed, I try to look at things from the bright side. It's like the kids that grow up in the hood with 1 parent. I tell them to look at how to improve with the cards you were delt and dwell on the positives, rather than dwelling on what they don't have.

I think optimistic and pessimistic fans both agree on the negatives. Negatives are easy to see in a negative situation. Optimistic fans choose to dwell on the positives. Now I'm not sticking up for all fans, because everybody is different and most of the time, it's really a personality conflict than anything else. This is just my own philosophy, which may or may not be similar to others.

blkexec wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

nixluva wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote: i like optimism but i think sometimes you are too optimistic that you lose touch with reality a bit. I think we will be better next year based on the fact that we have a lottery pick and cap space. However im careful not to get ahead of myself because its possible we lose out on the big free agents and our draft pick might struggle at first you never know

See that's the thing, I'm not making the argument that our draft pick has to be great from day one. It's more important that in the long run he turns into a core part of the team we can rely on. Hopefully if we're lucky we can end up with a franchise player, but as i've said repeatedly there are no guarantees in the draft. So i'm not getting ahead of myself. All i'm doing is stating the fact that we have a chance to add a good player in the draft. 1st we have to see what spot we get in the lottery.

As for free agents i'm also not saying we have to end up with big names. This is why I kept bringing up the Hawks who didn't add any unattainable players. Korver, Millsap, Carroll and Schroder aren't the level of players we can't get in NY. There will be a lot of 2nd tier guys we have a shot at getting. So IMO it's not going out on a limb to be optimistic. We have our pick and cap space to go after the players we want and need. How that all works out is up in the air but we have a good shot to improve the team.

Dude base on your post, if I didn't know better i would think you were related to phil and fisher. You have yet to hold them responsible for anything negative. They have screwed up the franchise pretty badly, and your optimism consist of words like "if were lucky" "hopefully" "5 years from now"

If phil says something and contradicts himself, you have a full excuse waiting, you bitched like crazy about woodsons rotation, yet fisher plays 15 guys in 10 minutes and your happy and all on board.

If fisher and phil raped JILL MARTIN, you would blame her for teasing them and where skimpy clothing. I mean it's gotten that bad with you, and we have been posting together for over 10 yrs, but lately you have been phil and fishers biggest supporter,probably bigger then dolan himself, and i just dont get it.

Do you posters who go into a tantrum when you read optimistic posts, have no internal filter? Do you ever sit back and read what you've just written and think "Maybe I'm over reacting a little"? Or do you just type a load of crap in a fury and instantly hit the post button? We've gone from comparing people who are optimistic to ****, terrorists and now rape. Go get some perspective, it's just fricking basketball.

I actually don't know why it's gotten this bad. Most of what i'm saying is rather bland and not very controversial. We have a chance at a top pick and we have cap space to revamp the top of the rotation with better players. What is so outlandish about saying that? If anyone looks at my statements above what is overly rah rah about them?

Suggesting we could do something similar to what the Hawks did, when they clearly didn't add any big time players in order to form a winning team. That's about as realistic as we can get in terms of trying to revamp the roster this summer. Basically 2nd tier Free Agents are all the Hawks added, so why can't the Knicks do that? It's not that out of the realm of possibility. I'd say it's fairly doable.

Yeah, I don't get it either. I can be quite cynical in life, but I don't lose the plot when I hear someone feeling more upbeat about the future.

Don't let fans from other teams come onto a knick site to stop your happiness. If you want to be optimistic about the knicks on a knicks site designed for optimistic knick fans, have at it. The fact that this is even a discussion and / or a thread that hasn't been deleted is a problem within itself.

Maybe because I live outside of NY and I see all the hate from just being a knick fan. It's like other teams can't believe the knicks still have fans. And just wearing the colors orange and blue gets people upset. But I expect that from non knick fans. It's part of being a knick fan. But this knicks and knicks crime has to stop!

The site is designed for Knicks love. It has nothing to do with optimism (or pessimism). If you love your C student son, you tell him not to apply to Harvard. You don't misinterpret his mediocre grades as being outstanding just because you love him.

If you've had a C student for 15 years, telling him every day that you are simply a C student and currently have no chance at being a B student due to your parents management style, is not the best way to see your child improve. Also getting angry at your childs friends or support system who believe in him, is not the best strategy for any parent.

Good Analogy!

I agree with all your points - you are helping the analogy. The parallel would be here many people wanting the Knicks to improve by trading Melo for cap space and overhauling the organization from the top (ideally starting with Dolan). Further, you'd get very angry at people telling your son to keep doing what he's been doing - just like people here get angry at those supporting (whether verbally or financially) Dolan for putting up bad teams.
Even if you don't like the analogy, you should be able to comprehend that love and optimism are simply different, unrelated concepts.

I agree, but here's the issue. Dolan is the parent. And until the adoption agency comes in and removes him from being a parent, Dolan will continue to be Dolan, who continue to throw around money at players and GM's who may or may not deserve it. So optimistic fans try and figure out how to succeed under this bad parental guidance. What are the positives we can hold onto, while under his mis-management style. I'm not a Melo fan, never have been. I don't think he should be a max player. But I'm a bigger Knick fan, which goes above Melo and Dolan. So until Dolan is removed, I try to look at things from the bright side. It's like the kids that grow up in the hood with 1 parent. I tell them to look at how to improve with the cards you were delt and dwell on the positives, rather than dwelling on what they don't have.

I think optimistic and pessimistic fans both agree on the negatives. Negatives are easy to see in a negative situation. Optimistic fans choose to dwell on the positives. Now I'm not sticking up for all fans, because everybody is different and most of the time, it's really a personality conflict than anything else. This is just my own philosophy, which may or may not be similar to others.

blkexec wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

nixluva wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote: i like optimism but i think sometimes you are too optimistic that you lose touch with reality a bit. I think we will be better next year based on the fact that we have a lottery pick and cap space. However im careful not to get ahead of myself because its possible we lose out on the big free agents and our draft pick might struggle at first you never know

See that's the thing, I'm not making the argument that our draft pick has to be great from day one. It's more important that in the long run he turns into a core part of the team we can rely on. Hopefully if we're lucky we can end up with a franchise player, but as i've said repeatedly there are no guarantees in the draft. So i'm not getting ahead of myself. All i'm doing is stating the fact that we have a chance to add a good player in the draft. 1st we have to see what spot we get in the lottery.

As for free agents i'm also not saying we have to end up with big names. This is why I kept bringing up the Hawks who didn't add any unattainable players. Korver, Millsap, Carroll and Schroder aren't the level of players we can't get in NY. There will be a lot of 2nd tier guys we have a shot at getting. So IMO it's not going out on a limb to be optimistic. We have our pick and cap space to go after the players we want and need. How that all works out is up in the air but we have a good shot to improve the team.

Dude base on your post, if I didn't know better i would think you were related to phil and fisher. You have yet to hold them responsible for anything negative. They have screwed up the franchise pretty badly, and your optimism consist of words like "if were lucky" "hopefully" "5 years from now"

If phil says something and contradicts himself, you have a full excuse waiting, you bitched like crazy about woodsons rotation, yet fisher plays 15 guys in 10 minutes and your happy and all on board.

If fisher and phil raped JILL MARTIN, you would blame her for teasing them and where skimpy clothing. I mean it's gotten that bad with you, and we have been posting together for over 10 yrs, but lately you have been phil and fishers biggest supporter,probably bigger then dolan himself, and i just dont get it.

Do you posters who go into a tantrum when you read optimistic posts, have no internal filter? Do you ever sit back and read what you've just written and think "Maybe I'm over reacting a little"? Or do you just type a load of crap in a fury and instantly hit the post button? We've gone from comparing people who are optimistic to ****, terrorists and now rape. Go get some perspective, it's just fricking basketball.

I actually don't know why it's gotten this bad. Most of what i'm saying is rather bland and not very controversial. We have a chance at a top pick and we have cap space to revamp the top of the rotation with better players. What is so outlandish about saying that? If anyone looks at my statements above what is overly rah rah about them?

Suggesting we could do something similar to what the Hawks did, when they clearly didn't add any big time players in order to form a winning team. That's about as realistic as we can get in terms of trying to revamp the roster this summer. Basically 2nd tier Free Agents are all the Hawks added, so why can't the Knicks do that? It's not that out of the realm of possibility. I'd say it's fairly doable.

Yeah, I don't get it either. I can be quite cynical in life, but I don't lose the plot when I hear someone feeling more upbeat about the future.

Don't let fans from other teams come onto a knick site to stop your happiness. If you want to be optimistic about the knicks on a knicks site designed for optimistic knick fans, have at it. The fact that this is even a discussion and / or a thread that hasn't been deleted is a problem within itself.

Maybe because I live outside of NY and I see all the hate from just being a knick fan. It's like other teams can't believe the knicks still have fans. And just wearing the colors orange and blue gets people upset. But I expect that from non knick fans. It's part of being a knick fan. But this knicks and knicks crime has to stop!

The site is designed for Knicks love. It has nothing to do with optimism (or pessimism). If you love your C student son, you tell him not to apply to Harvard. You don't misinterpret his mediocre grades as being outstanding just because you love him.

If you've had a C student for 15 years, telling him every day that you are simply a C student and currently have no chance at being a B student due to your parents management style, is not the best way to see your child improve. Also getting angry at your childs friends or support system who believe in him, is not the best strategy for any parent.

Good Analogy!

I agree with all your points - you are helping the analogy. The parallel would be here many people wanting the Knicks to improve by trading Melo for cap space and overhauling the organization from the top (ideally starting with Dolan). Further, you'd get very angry at people telling your son to keep doing what he's been doing - just like people here get angry at those supporting (whether verbally or financially) Dolan for putting up bad teams.
Even if you don't like the analogy, you should be able to comprehend that love and optimism are simply different, unrelated concepts.

I agree, but here's the issue. Dolan is the parent. And until the adoption agency comes in and removes him from being a parent, Dolan will continue to be Dolan, who continue to throw around money at players and GM's who may or may not deserve it. So optimistic fans try and figure out how to succeed under this bad parental guidance. What are the positives we can hold onto, while under his mis-management style. I'm not a Melo fan, never have been. I don't think he should be a max player. But I'm a bigger Knick fan, which goes above Melo and Dolan. So until Dolan is removed, I try to look at things from the bright side. It's like the kids that grow up in the hood with 1 parent. I tell them to look at how to improve with the cards you were delt and dwell on the positives, rather than dwelling on what they don't have.

I think optimistic and pessimistic fans both agree on the negatives. Negatives are easy to see in a negative situation. Optimistic fans choose to dwell on the positives. Now I'm not sticking up for all fans, because everybody is different and most of the time, it's really a personality conflict than anything else. This is just my own philosophy, which may or may not be similar to others.

That's fine. I was simply objecting to the idea that many here have that the site was somehow designed for optimism.

Fair point....I think optimistic fans find it hard to believe how anybody could be pessimistic right now. It's a good argument for fans that want to entertain. To me, it's a waste of time. Everybody is wired differently based on past or current experiences. No need in trying to change people's perspectives on things. That goes deeper than a knicks fan site. Therefore it's not worth the energy. There's plenty of room for both types of fans....As long as it's done with respect.

Sounds like we should be the representing party for both sides. It's the only time I heard a debate being made without any personal attacks. There's room for both perspectives! For die hard knicks fans only! Everybody else can kiss my a......!

Bonn1997 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

nixluva wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote: i like optimism but i think sometimes you are too optimistic that you lose touch with reality a bit. I think we will be better next year based on the fact that we have a lottery pick and cap space. However im careful not to get ahead of myself because its possible we lose out on the big free agents and our draft pick might struggle at first you never know

See that's the thing, I'm not making the argument that our draft pick has to be great from day one. It's more important that in the long run he turns into a core part of the team we can rely on. Hopefully if we're lucky we can end up with a franchise player, but as i've said repeatedly there are no guarantees in the draft. So i'm not getting ahead of myself. All i'm doing is stating the fact that we have a chance to add a good player in the draft. 1st we have to see what spot we get in the lottery.

As for free agents i'm also not saying we have to end up with big names. This is why I kept bringing up the Hawks who didn't add any unattainable players. Korver, Millsap, Carroll and Schroder aren't the level of players we can't get in NY. There will be a lot of 2nd tier guys we have a shot at getting. So IMO it's not going out on a limb to be optimistic. We have our pick and cap space to go after the players we want and need. How that all works out is up in the air but we have a good shot to improve the team.

Dude base on your post, if I didn't know better i would think you were related to phil and fisher. You have yet to hold them responsible for anything negative. They have screwed up the franchise pretty badly, and your optimism consist of words like "if were lucky" "hopefully" "5 years from now"

If phil says something and contradicts himself, you have a full excuse waiting, you bitched like crazy about woodsons rotation, yet fisher plays 15 guys in 10 minutes and your happy and all on board.

If fisher and phil raped JILL MARTIN, you would blame her for teasing them and where skimpy clothing. I mean it's gotten that bad with you, and we have been posting together for over 10 yrs, but lately you have been phil and fishers biggest supporter,probably bigger then dolan himself, and i just dont get it.

Do you posters who go into a tantrum when you read optimistic posts, have no internal filter? Do you ever sit back and read what you've just written and think "Maybe I'm over reacting a little"? Or do you just type a load of crap in a fury and instantly hit the post button? We've gone from comparing people who are optimistic to ****, terrorists and now rape. Go get some perspective, it's just fricking basketball.

I actually don't know why it's gotten this bad. Most of what i'm saying is rather bland and not very controversial. We have a chance at a top pick and we have cap space to revamp the top of the rotation with better players. What is so outlandish about saying that? If anyone looks at my statements above what is overly rah rah about them?

Suggesting we could do something similar to what the Hawks did, when they clearly didn't add any big time players in order to form a winning team. That's about as realistic as we can get in terms of trying to revamp the roster this summer. Basically 2nd tier Free Agents are all the Hawks added, so why can't the Knicks do that? It's not that out of the realm of possibility. I'd say it's fairly doable.

Yeah, I don't get it either. I can be quite cynical in life, but I don't lose the plot when I hear someone feeling more upbeat about the future.

Don't let fans from other teams come onto a knick site to stop your happiness. If you want to be optimistic about the knicks on a knicks site designed for optimistic knick fans, have at it. The fact that this is even a discussion and / or a thread that hasn't been deleted is a problem within itself.

Maybe because I live outside of NY and I see all the hate from just being a knick fan. It's like other teams can't believe the knicks still have fans. And just wearing the colors orange and blue gets people upset. But I expect that from non knick fans. It's part of being a knick fan. But this knicks and knicks crime has to stop!

The site is designed for Knicks love. It has nothing to do with optimism (or pessimism). If you love your C student son, you tell him not to apply to Harvard. You don't misinterpret his mediocre grades as being outstanding just because you love him.

If you've had a C student for 15 years, telling him every day that you are simply a C student and currently have no chance at being a B student due to your parents management style, is not the best way to see your child improve. Also getting angry at your childs friends or support system who believe in him, is not the best strategy for any parent.

Good Analogy!

I agree with all your points - you are helping the analogy. The parallel would be here many people wanting the Knicks to improve by trading Melo for cap space and overhauling the organization from the top (ideally starting with Dolan). Further, you'd get very angry at people telling your son to keep doing what he's been doing - just like people here get angry at those supporting (whether verbally or financially) Dolan for putting up bad teams.
Even if you don't like the analogy, you should be able to comprehend that love and optimism are simply different, unrelated concepts.

I agree, but here's the issue. Dolan is the parent. And until the adoption agency comes in and removes him from being a parent, Dolan will continue to be Dolan, who continue to throw around money at players and GM's who may or may not deserve it. So optimistic fans try and figure out how to succeed under this bad parental guidance. What are the positives we can hold onto, while under his mis-management style. I'm not a Melo fan, never have been. I don't think he should be a max player. But I'm a bigger Knick fan, which goes above Melo and Dolan. So until Dolan is removed, I try to look at things from the bright side. It's like the kids that grow up in the hood with 1 parent. I tell them to look at how to improve with the cards you were delt and dwell on the positives, rather than dwelling on what they don't have.

I think optimistic and pessimistic fans both agree on the negatives. Negatives are easy to see in a negative situation. Optimistic fans choose to dwell on the positives. Now I'm not sticking up for all fans, because everybody is different and most of the time, it's really a personality conflict than anything else. This is just my own philosophy, which may or may not be similar to others.

That's fine. I was simply objecting to the idea that many here have that the site was somehow designed for optimism.

Fair point....I think optimistic fans find it hard to believe how anybody could be pessimistic right now. It's a good argument for fans that want to entertain. To me, it's a waste of time. Everybody is wired differently based on past or current experiences. No need in trying to change people's perspectives on things. That goes deeper than a knicks fan site. Therefore it's not worth the energy. There's plenty of room for both types of fans....As long as it's done with respect.

Sounds like we should be the representing party for both sides. It's the only time I heard a debate being made without any personal attacks. There's room for both perspectives! For die hard knicks fans only! Everybody else can kiss my a......!

The optimism is based on the assets ahead, not the track records of the current people in their positions (Phil's 13 months as a GM, Dolan's 15 years as an owner, Mills' 3 years as executive VP, Fisher's first season as a coach, etc.). Depending on which you focus on, you'll have optimism or pessimism. If you focus on both (like I try to), you'll probably be closer to skeptical than either optimistic or pessimistic.
Given the assets we have, I definitely think Phil and company can return us to the .500s in a couple of years but they haven't (thus far) given me reason to expect more.

And thats what I call reality

• The season is about to end and we will have the worst record in the league AND in franchise history
• We have cut all of the talent from the team except for Melo, but he seems more interested in building his business empire than winning chips
• We have a rookie coach who still has a lot of learning curve to ascend
• We have a rookie GM who has 11 chips, and so might lack some of the hunger that motivates those who have yet to cross that threshold

But I have been a NYK fan for my entire life. I watched the Knicks last chip-winning effort in the early 70s as a child growing up in Manhattan with a family of NYK fans. I have endured the same horrible stretch from the mid 90s until now. And I can say without reservation...

I AM AN OPTIMISTIC KNICK FAN, TOO! (caps intended for emphasis)

Why?

• We have a rookie GM who has 11 chips AND a strict adherence to his beliefs about "we" > "me"
• Jax cut loose the "me first" players (Chandler, Smith, Shump) who did not want to be a part of the NYK future
• The NYK did not do what we have always done and win enough to be irrelevant, but win enough to have a mid-1st round pick in the draft
• We are positioned to have a top four pick, with a 25% chance at the #1 overall pick in an amazing draft class
• We have ~$30mil in available cap space this off-season to add talent
• We will have another ~$20mil to $30mil in the next year due to new TV deal
• Melo is still a stud, no matter what the haters say. He may miss his window in NY, but he will always play hard. If he decides he wants out, we should be able to get back talent and picks

In short, we have something to look forward to that isn't the same starphucking, Dolan-infused BS we have swallowed the past 15+ years. Change is in the wind and we have a chance to rebuild out of mediocrity and get back to competing, which is all any of us should be asking for.

We have a shot at relevance again. That's what makes me optimistic and psyched. I'm glad it's not only me who chooses to see the half-full glass in front of us. Nix (and others) are also on board with this positive change.

And the haters? Well, they'll always hate. Fuck em.

Smith is obviously a player whose quality of performance can vary with ongoing hot/cold streaks, but there’s almost no denying he’s looked much more comfortable since leaving the Big Apple. Is this specifically reflective of the struggles the triangle has presented players with, compared to what they can do elsewhere?

A friend of many quality players around the league, it’ll be interesting to see if Smith will have any influence on this coming summer’s free agency crop. Regardless, the continued struggles of those others still trying to catch on may be enough to scare off potential Knickerbocker targets this offseason.

Phil Jackson may have won eleven championships teaching his players the triangle, but he isn’t the one preaching on the sidelines anymore. Success in the system is no longer instantly guaranteed, so incoming players will need to take a gamble on the process eventually working out for the better. That’s a risky thing to ask for from guys needing to make commitments.

This is the point i have been trying to hammer home. You don't have jordan, kobe, shaq, rodman, or PIP, and we don't have a season veteran coach.

Now the super optimistic people want us to believe that some 2nd tier talent and a rookie coach can duplicate the succes that PHIL had..Thats like replacing a porsh with a Accord and you still think you got a shot at winning the race just by thinking positive.

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Jr, Tyson, and shump were by no means "ME FIRST PLAYERS" and love the hell out of NYC. JR and Shump needed much more time in this new system

Smith is obviously a player whose quality of performance can vary with ongoing hot/cold streaks, but there’s almost no denying he’s looked much more comfortable since leaving the Big Apple. Is this specifically reflective of the struggles the triangle has presented players with, compared to what they can do elsewhere?

A friend of many quality players around the league, it’ll be interesting to see if Smith will have any influence on this coming summer’s free agency crop. Regardless, the continued struggles of those others still trying to catch on may be enough to scare off potential Knickerbocker targets this offseason.

Phil Jackson may have won eleven championships teaching his players the triangle, but he isn’t the one preaching on the sidelines anymore. Success in the system is no longer instantly guaranteed, so incoming players will need to take a gamble on the process eventually working out for the better. That’s a risky thing to ask for from guys needing to make commitments.

This is the point i have been trying to hammer home. You don't have jordan, kobe, shaq, rodman, or PIP, and we don't have a season veteran coach.

Now the super optimistic people want us to believe that some 2nd tier talent and a rookie coach can duplicate the succes that PHIL had..Thats like replacing a porsh with a Accord and you still think you got a shot at winning the race just by thinking positive.

Just stop, no one is saying that.

Also this idea that just cuz Phil isn't on the bench that somehow the Triangle isn't being taught properly is NONSENSE!!! Phil had to be taught the system by Tex over many years and all of Phil's assistants have been immersed in his teaching as well as Tex teaching them how to teach the system. This isn't a situation where it's all on Fish and if he can't teach it like Phil then no one is being taught properly.

Phil is not a fool. He and his staff have done this over and over and over again. Must we keep pretending that decades of experience with a system isn't enough to gain full understanding of it? Phil knows who has full understanding of how to teach the system more than any of us. Why are we assuming he'd let them just teach it poorly? Even further he's given Fish the freedom to tweak the system as he sees fit, in the same way he tweaked the system over the years. Phil has changed things with each team he has coached.

As for the players we let go, this is going to be a team that Phil has built much closer to his own ideals. Hopefully that will lead to success, but no one is predicting or guaranteeing success. All we're saying is that he has a great chance for success with all the options he has in front of him and full control. It's still too early to now for sure with the lottery still ahead of us.

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Jr, Tyson, and shump were by no means "ME FIRST PLAYERS" and love the hell out of NYC. JR and Shump needed much more time in this new system

Smith is obviously a player whose quality of performance can vary with ongoing hot/cold streaks, but there’s almost no denying he’s looked much more comfortable since leaving the Big Apple. Is this specifically reflective of the struggles the triangle has presented players with, compared to what they can do elsewhere?

A friend of many quality players around the league, it’ll be interesting to see if Smith will have any influence on this coming summer’s free agency crop. Regardless, the continued struggles of those others still trying to catch on may be enough to scare off potential Knickerbocker targets this offseason.

Phil Jackson may have won eleven championships teaching his players the triangle, but he isn’t the one preaching on the sidelines anymore. Success in the system is no longer instantly guaranteed, so incoming players will need to take a gamble on the process eventually working out for the better. That’s a risky thing to ask for from guys needing to make commitments.

This is the point i have been trying to hammer home. You don't have jordan, kobe, shaq, rodman, or PIP, and we don't have a season veteran coach.

Now the super optimistic people want us to believe that some 2nd tier talent and a rookie coach can duplicate the succes that PHIL had..Thats like replacing a porsh with a Accord and you still think you got a shot at winning the race just by thinking positive.

Just stop, no one is saying that.

Also this idea that just cuz Phil isn't on the bench that somehow the Triangle isn't being taught properly is NONSENSE!!! Phil had to be taught the system by Tex over many years and all of Phil's assistants have been immersed in his teaching as well as Tex teaching them how to teach the system. This isn't a situation where it's all on Fish and if he can't teach it like Phil then no one is being taught properly.

Phil is not a fool. He and his staff have done this over and over and over again. Must we keep pretending that decades of experience with a system isn't enough to gain full understanding of it? Phil knows who has full understanding of how to teach the system more than any of us. Why are we assuming he'd let them just teach it poorly? Even further he's given Fish the freedom to tweak the system as he sees fit, in the same way he tweaked the system over the years. Phil has changed things with each team he has coached.

As for the players we let go, this is going to be a team that Phil has built much closer to his own ideals. Hopefully that will lead to success, but no one is predicting or guaranteeing success. All we're saying is that he has a great chance for success with all the options he has in front of him and full control. It's still too early to now for sure with the lottery still ahead of us.

it took years of coaching to get to that level, why would you sign melo to a 124 million dollar contract..

Then look at his silly ass explanation for trading tyson

Jackson explained on Thursday that he wanted to deal Chandler in part because he didn’t want to sign him to another contract that would have ended when Chandler was in his mid-30s.

Was he going to put a GUN to phils head and say re-sign me, i have your girl friend tied up in a brooklyn basement.

Are you kidding me, his value was at a all time low when he traded him, in fact all of the players he traded had low value. This is exactly why you can't be to excited about the off season.

I think even if you were disappointed with the Tyson deal, you can't assume that the Draft and Free Agency will be a fail just because of that. No GM is perfect and if you look at moves in a vacuum you'll find a lot of deals that seem to make no sense. I think there's just too much focus on that deal and not enough on what lays ahead of this team. Who cares about the Tyson deal at this point when we're on the precipice of landing a top pick? If we're able to land a top pick that could really impact this franchise for years to come. If that's the case then we go into Free Agency on a high note. We just have to wait and see what happens.

smackeddog wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Jr, Tyson, and shump were by no means "ME FIRST PLAYERS" and love the hell out of NYC. JR and Shump needed much more time in this new system

Smith is obviously a player whose quality of performance can vary with ongoing hot/cold streaks, but there’s almost no denying he’s looked much more comfortable since leaving the Big Apple. Is this specifically reflective of the struggles the triangle has presented players with, compared to what they can do elsewhere?

A friend of many quality players around the league, it’ll be interesting to see if Smith will have any influence on this coming summer’s free agency crop. Regardless, the continued struggles of those others still trying to catch on may be enough to scare off potential Knickerbocker targets this offseason.

Phil Jackson may have won eleven championships teaching his players the triangle, but he isn’t the one preaching on the sidelines anymore. Success in the system is no longer instantly guaranteed, so incoming players will need to take a gamble on the process eventually working out for the better. That’s a risky thing to ask for from guys needing to make commitments.

This is the point i have been trying to hammer home. You don't have jordan, kobe, shaq, rodman, or PIP, and we don't have a season veteran coach.

Now the super optimistic people want us to believe that some 2nd tier talent and a rookie coach can duplicate the succes that PHIL had..Thats like replacing a porsh with a Accord and you still think you got a shot at winning the race just by thinking positive.

How do you add talent to your team under the new cba? Because so few top flight players make it to free agency and have a financial incentive to sign with their current team, really the only way is via the draft. It's no sure thing- the player we pick might not pan out, but it's the best shot we can have- also they are locked into a cheap contract.

We then have cap space to fill out the roster with 2nd and 3rd tier players who fit the system and play team ball. That's a start, and something to build on. Next off-season we have more cap space plus our rookie will have a year under their belt. It's not a guaranteed recipe for success, but it's the best chance we have, and hopefully we will make it work.

Regarding Fish, the guy is here with great support behind him. Phil says he talks to him and reviews every game with Fish. You can't buy better advice as a coach than from PJax. How do you think Phil felt about that last game? It didn't look like Fish was out of his depth or lost. His team is responding about as well as they can to his coaching. I don't see a real problem. Fish has a year under his belt now and survived the worst he's likely to see. I think with an upgraded roster and a bit of experience Fish will be just fine next year.

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Jr, Tyson, and shump were by no means "ME FIRST PLAYERS" and love the hell out of NYC. JR and Shump needed much more time in this new system

Smith is obviously a player whose quality of performance can vary with ongoing hot/cold streaks, but there’s almost no denying he’s looked much more comfortable since leaving the Big Apple. Is this specifically reflective of the struggles the triangle has presented players with, compared to what they can do elsewhere?

A friend of many quality players around the league, it’ll be interesting to see if Smith will have any influence on this coming summer’s free agency crop. Regardless, the continued struggles of those others still trying to catch on may be enough to scare off potential Knickerbocker targets this offseason.

Phil Jackson may have won eleven championships teaching his players the triangle, but he isn’t the one preaching on the sidelines anymore. Success in the system is no longer instantly guaranteed, so incoming players will need to take a gamble on the process eventually working out for the better. That’s a risky thing to ask for from guys needing to make commitments.

This is the point i have been trying to hammer home. You don't have jordan, kobe, shaq, rodman, or PIP, and we don't have a season veteran coach.

Now the super optimistic people want us to believe that some 2nd tier talent and a rookie coach can duplicate the succes that PHIL had..Thats like replacing a porsh with a Accord and you still think you got a shot at winning the race just by thinking positive.

Just stop, no one is saying that.

I'm not going to give fisher and phil any props until they show me something, and if they do i'll man up. I appreciated the updates phil gives us from time to time, but that was kind of a no option at this point, A sales pitch IMO.

No one is saying what i'm saying directly, but in a nut shell that's what it boils down to.