mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

mreinman wrote:

smackeddog wrote:How good did pop look in his first season as spurs coach?

you mean tank year?

Ok ... lets see if Fisher can win 56 games like pop did in his second year if we are comparing.

Exactly- after next season we'll be in a better position to judge Fisher, at the moment it's premature, just like if you'd judged Pop during his first year.

Of course you can't judge Fisher based on this year. That would be really silly and unfair.

I have a personal dislike for Fisher since I did not care for his playing style and bball IQ before he was our coach.

And that's fine- I'm not convinced of him yet and he may turn out to be awful. I liked his playing style though- some of those clutch shots defied reason. I find that kind of stuff fascinating, some players just seem to step up and be better than they are in crucial moments. It's just personal preference.

nixluva wrote:This team may lose games but it's not because they aren't well prepared or coached. They simply don't have enough talent. In terms of actually executing the system they do it right but can't even finish simple layups consistently nor do they have the shooting or enough players who can create their own offense. This has nothing to do with Fisher's coaching. He's shown enough so far to see that with more talent he could win games. We're not even talking about having as much talent as Kerr has in GS. It's not possible for us to make that kind of jump in one off season. The system is actually creating openings on a regular basis but our players aren't always able to finish the plays. You put better players in those same spots and they'll convert them into scores and draw fouls etc.

What exactly has he shown you, please tell me the games you saw that gave you the impression that with a better roster he can win 50 games.

Lets go down the basic coaching list

development- Who has gotten better on this roster since training camp, and I'm not talking one or 2 good games

Rotation-He has never ever had a set rotation for more than 2 games, so no player knew when or if they were going to play or how many minutes

Defense- He preached defense like that was the focal point of training camp, it has been god awful (worse than MDA) were like dead last in almost every defensive category.

You keep saying the players we have can create, well neither can the coach. The players can create there on shots, and the coach can create a system to fit his roster

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:This team may lose games but it's not because they aren't well prepared or coached. They simply don't have enough talent. In terms of actually executing the system they do it right but can't even finish simple layups consistently nor do they have the shooting or enough players who can create their own offense. This has nothing to do with Fisher's coaching. He's shown enough so far to see that with more talent he could win games. We're not even talking about having as much talent as Kerr has in GS. It's not possible for us to make that kind of jump in one off season. The system is actually creating openings on a regular basis but our players aren't always able to finish the plays. You put better players in those same spots and they'll convert them into scores and draw fouls etc.

What exactly has he shown you, please tell me the games you saw that gave you the impression that with a better roster he can win 50 games.

Lets go down the basic coaching list

development- Who has gotten better on this roster since training camp, and I'm not talking one or 2 good games

Rotation-He has never ever had a set rotation for more than 2 games, so no player knew when or if they were going to play or how many minutes

Defense- He preached defense like that was the focal point of training camp, it has been god awful (worse than MDA) were like dead last in almost every defensive category.

You keep saying the players we have can create, well neither can the coach. The players can create there on shots, and the coach can create a system to fit his roster

I simply don't understand your take on things. No matter how many times people point out to you that this team lacks enough talent you still seem not to want to accept this truth.

Fish has been developing players all year. Galloway, Amundson, Cole, Shved and Thomas have all gotten better. They have limitations tho so you have to keep things in perspective. The teams execution as a whole has improved but again you have to recognize that there's only so much you can do before a lack of talent limits how good you can be.

It's much easier to have a set rotation when you have clear starters and not a team full of role players. As players have stepped up Fish has gone with a more set rotation. Still since players are so up and down he has to make changes.

If you really are watching the games then you know that the team does in fact try hard on defense. They don't have enough defensive talent to play top D for 48 minutes. Another big part of their problem is really on the offensive end where they can't score enough points. All of these things go back to talent and not coaching. Is Fish learning on the job? Sure? But he's not so out of it as a coach as you're trying to make him out to be.

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:This team may lose games but it's not because they aren't well prepared or coached. They simply don't have enough talent. In terms of actually executing the system they do it right but can't even finish simple layups consistently nor do they have the shooting or enough players who can create their own offense. This has nothing to do with Fisher's coaching. He's shown enough so far to see that with more talent he could win games. We're not even talking about having as much talent as Kerr has in GS. It's not possible for us to make that kind of jump in one off season. The system is actually creating openings on a regular basis but our players aren't always able to finish the plays. You put better players in those same spots and they'll convert them into scores and draw fouls etc.

What exactly has he shown you, please tell me the games you saw that gave you the impression that with a better roster he can win 50 games.

Lets go down the basic coaching list

development- Who has gotten better on this roster since training camp, and I'm not talking one or 2 good games

Rotation-He has never ever had a set rotation for more than 2 games, so no player knew when or if they were going to play or how many minutes

Defense- He preached defense like that was the focal point of training camp, it has been god awful (worse than MDA) were like dead last in almost every defensive category.

You keep saying the players we have can create, well neither can the coach. The players can create there on shots, and the coach can create a system to fit his roster

I simply don't understand your take on things. No matter how many times people point out to you that this team lacks enough talent you still seem not to want to accept this truth.

Fish has been developing players all year. Galloway, Amundson, Cole, Shved and Thomas have all gotten better. They have limitations tho so you have to keep things in perspective. The teams execution as a whole has improved but again you have to recognize that there's only so much you can do before a lack of talent limits how good you can be.

It's much easier to have a set rotation when you have clear starters and not a team full of role players. As players have stepped up Fish has gone with a more set rotation. Still since players are so up and down he has to make changes.

If you really are watching the games then you know that the team does in fact try hard on defense. They don't have enough defensive talent to play top D for 48 minutes. Another big part of their problem is really on the offensive end where they can't score enough points. All of these things go back to talent and not coaching. Is Fish learning on the job? Sure? But he's not so out of it as a coach as you're trying to make him out to be.

Sorry Nix, those players you have mention have not gotten better, Galloway came to the Knicks performing just as he was in the D league, he is still too inconsistent to start, amundson is doing the same thing he has always done (with more minutes), which is why he's a 10 yr vet, thomas, cole (who shoots 8 foot hook shots that make kareem cringe) is a mess. They are all super inconsistent, but majority of the reason is the minutes and roles, neither of which has ever been establish.

Defensively, the philosophy to pack the paint has back fired like a like a $2 gun, 1) you don't nearly have the athletes quick enough to recover, or the length 2)With sub par defenders, you can put them in positions they can't handle, like don't allow a layup, but be prepare to race back out for the kick out pass.

The little ass baby steps of improvement you are referring to, will get him fired,every one knows the coaching window for success is 1 to 3 years.

I recalled last season we both killed woodson for the switching and the erratic rotation,and when JR was finally inserted for good, the team finish 16-4.

But here is the real issue I'm having, if you look at our 13 wins, the rotation was tight in all of them. why in gods name would you defer from that

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

I simply don't understand your take on things. No matter how many times people point out to you that this team lacks enough talent you still seem not to want to accept this truth.

I dont understand either. When the season started did the team lack talent? I surely dont recall you saying it then....and they were garbage then as well.

nixluva wrote:Fish has been developing players all year. Galloway, Amundson, Cole, Shved and Thomas have all gotten better. They have limitations tho so you have to keep things in perspective. The teams execution as a whole has improved but again you have to recognize that there's only so much you can do before a lack of talent limits how good you can be.

Lou is a veteran, please dont insult anyone saying he's gotten better under Fisher. Cole actually looks worse mainly because he doesnt play much. Galloway was honed in the D-league, Shved has years of professional ball playing experience. I dont even think the team will even keep Thomas. Now lets talk about development.....has he developed Timmy? Larkin? Acy certainly was a better player before he got here.

nixluva wrote:It's much easier to have a set rotation when you have clear starters and not a team full of role players. As players have stepped up Fish has gone with a more set rotation. Still since players are so up and down he has to make changes.

That will be the case even if he had a team full of all-stars.

nixluva wrote:If you really are watching the games then you know that the team does in fact try hard on defense. They don't have enough defensive talent to play top D for 48 minutes. Another big part of their problem is really on the offensive end where they can't score enough points. All of these things go back to talent and not coaching. Is Fish learning on the job? Sure? But he's not so out of it as a coach as you're trying to make him out to be.

Fisher tells them to defend the rim, and not worry about the three.....they do neither well. No team that tries to defend would be last.

There was a lot of stuff that sabotaged the start of the year and you know it. Injuries, adjustment to the system, Fish was brand spanking knew and dealing with a less than ideal situation, JR was lost, guys not buying in. I can go on and on about how that all transpired. Since the trade you can see that players don't look as lost as they did to start the year. Players are trying but they're limited. They aren't losing because they aren't prepared or coached well. Fish isn't just rolling the ball out there and saying go get em. Doesn't matter what anyone says cuz you're stuck on this.

Injuries affect every team, stop using it as a copout. Since you used GS recently, how come their adjustment has been somewhat flawless?

Because 1) the coach is flexible enough to recognize his talent and use them along with the experience he has. Say what you will but Kerr has Phil and Pop in his blood, and he runs a system to reflect such. GS wasnt this good last year, he IS the difference.

Kerr emphasizes defense as well and thus keeps David Leee on the bench. Fisher will NEVER run Bargs of the bench.

This team has always "tried" to run the triangle....it's just not a system that maximizes players or raise their levels....it systematically holds them back.

The only reason reason why the team is playing better now is because they arent running the triangle in it's native form. galloway isnt running the triangle at all and for the most part Shved isnt either. Lou in particular is merely bringing effort and energy. the only player I can honestly say is "running" the system is Bargs. These cats are freelancing out their now.

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

I simply don't understand your take on things. No matter how many times people point out to you that this team lacks enough talent you still seem not to want to accept this truth.

I dont understand either. When the season started did the team lack talent? I surely dont recall you saying it then....and they were garbage then as well.

nixluva wrote:Fish has been developing players all year. Galloway, Amundson, Cole, Shved and Thomas have all gotten better. They have limitations tho so you have to keep things in perspective. The teams execution as a whole has improved but again you have to recognize that there's only so much you can do before a lack of talent limits how good you can be.

Lou is a veteran, please dont insult anyone saying he's gotten better under Fisher. Cole actually looks worse mainly because he doesnt play much. Galloway was honed in the D-league, Shved has years of professional ball playing experience. I dont even think the team will even keep Thomas. Now lets talk about development.....has he developed Timmy? Larkin? Acy certainly was a better player before he got here.

nixluva wrote:It's much easier to have a set rotation when you have clear starters and not a team full of role players. As players have stepped up Fish has gone with a more set rotation. Still since players are so up and down he has to make changes.

That will be the case even if he had a team full of all-stars.

nixluva wrote:If you really are watching the games then you know that the team does in fact try hard on defense. They don't have enough defensive talent to play top D for 48 minutes. Another big part of their problem is really on the offensive end where they can't score enough points. All of these things go back to talent and not coaching. Is Fish learning on the job? Sure? But he's not so out of it as a coach as you're trying to make him out to be.

Fisher tells them to defend the rim, and not worry about the three.....they do neither well. No team that tries to defend would be last.

There was a lot of stuff that sabotaged the start of the year and you know it. Injuries, adjustment to the system, Fish was brand spanking knew and dealing with a less than ideal situation, JR was lost, guys not buying in. I can go on and on about how that all transpired. Since the trade you can see that players don't look as lost as they did to start the year. Players are trying but they're limited. They aren't losing because they aren't prepared or coached well. Fish isn't just rolling the ball out there and saying go get em. Doesn't matter what anyone says cuz you're stuck on this.

Not buying it, because Phil explained all of which some of us were saying from the start.

Injuries affect every team, stop using it as a copout. Since you used GS recently, how come their adjustment has been somewhat flawless?

Because 1) the coach is flexible enough to recognize his talent and use them along with the experience he has. Say what you will but Kerr has Phil and Pop in his blood, and he runs a system to reflect such. GS wasnt this good last year, he IS the difference.

Kerr emphasizes defense as well and thus keeps David Leee on the bench. Fisher will NEVER run Bargs of the bench.

This team has always "tried" to run the triangle....it's just not a system that maximizes players or raise their levels....it systematically holds them back.

The only reason reason why the team is playing better now is because they arent running the triangle in it's native form. galloway isnt running the triangle at all and for the most part Shved isnt either. Lou in particular is merely bringing effort and energy. the only player I can honestly say is "running" the system is Bargs. These cats are freelancing out their now.

You are talking so much crap out of your ass right now. Kerr's situation is in no way comparable to Fish in NY. Even if you grant that Kerr is a bit further ahead in his development that still wouldn't make up for the MASSIVE advantage Kerr has with his loaded roster. You lose all credibility even trying to compare the situations. The Warriors were already a top defensive team before Kerr signed his contract. He took over a team that was already good. It's much easier to tweak an already high performance roster than to deal with what Fish had to deal with.

As for the Triangle as an offense I think you simply have no idea what the system is all about. You're basing your comments not on actual knowledge but assumptions based on what you're seeing with the Knicks this year. Just the fact that you think they aren't running the Triangle is proof that you have no F'n idea what the Triangle offense is. Besides with so little talent it's easy for things to break down and look sloppy at times. Lou Amundson is actually doing what he's supposed to do no matter what system you run and he also is running the system. The whole team is executing the options in the offense as best they can. They may not always finish off the plays but they get into each action as they should. They're making the right passes and cuts. They mostly make the right reads but again when it comes to finishing plays they aren't always able to do it.

Maybe you should try more cowbell Nix

Knicks1969 wrote:Fisher was lucky to be offered a coaching job while the entire world knew that this dude was not qualified. I do t blame him for accepting the contract, I blame Phil. Our record is not what it is due to talents; it is what it is because of fisher's inability to coach and motivate

YOU MY FREIND ARE LOST!!! Tony Robbins and Depak Chopra couldn't motivate this team to wins. They need talent.

Once Kerr took the GS job there was no way he was going with anyone but his type of guy. You think Phil didn't know Fish was inexperienced? Phil wasn't looking for a long time experienced coach who was set in his ways. He wanted a new coach that would be open to doing things the way he wanted them done and to be mentored.

This team loses because we have almost no one on the roster and even worse with the injuries. I don't care what coach came in here he'd find it tough to get wins. Besides who's really caring about wins at this point? We should thank Phil for trashing this roster in this year when we have our pick and there are good players at the top of this draft. Phil did us a favor once he gave up on the players we had. Now we get to clean out the trash and try to bring in better players and hopefully draft a core player for the future. Fisher got a full season to learn and be more ready next year when the roster is improved.