holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

helloharv wrote:

holfresh wrote:I was a big Love fan and I'm down on him..Alarm bells went off when he didn't really step up on the Olympic team...He really didn't assert himself..Now you are really seeing it on the Cavs...No way I'll give Love 20 mil per...The money can be spent more wisely..I'll rather pass and wait...

don't you think it would be tough for him to be the 3rd wheel after being the man for his entire life?

here he can be the man on some nights and the 2nd in charge all other nights

I can't wait for the playoffs because it will tell the story...He will have to step up in the playoffs..I'm just not sure if it's just a case of him needing to be the man or have no impact at all...It is kind of alarming that his team in Minny never made the playoffs..Say what you want about Melo, he teams were always in the playoffs in Denver...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2015.html

i am providing you with the link to a page that should clear things up. when looking at the advanced stats you will notice that kevin love's defensive win share is superior to both lebron's and irving's. on espn his real defensive plus/minus has him 10th among power forwards. it turns out that he is an above-average defender-- unless you ignore the advanced metrics.

meanwhile his TS% is at 56% which is not great but is exactly the same as carmelo's better seasons. so if you consider melo an effective scorer then i guess you'll have to say the same about love, and this is with love in a diminished role in cleveland.

and the playoff failure meme is a canard. take a look at those wolves lineups. second-rate and awful. put melo on those teams and it's unmitigated disaster!

So let me get this straight..According to advanced stats, KLove is the best defender on Cleveland Cavs or his defense leads to more wins??

The rebounding is why his defensive win shares is high. The #s on 82games.com and the NBA player tracking stats are better ways to measure man to man defense.

Bonn, what I don't understand is this..Isn't it more important to know how a player arrives at his stats than just looking at one number such as TS%..Isnt the information of knowing a player shoots higher from the three or gets to the foul line or just shoots higher from two point land more important than just looking at one number ?

a thorough understanding of the stats is important, sure. The team's are hiring stats experts, not message board posters for a reason!

I'm not hearing of any teams relieving their scouting departments of their duties either..

huh? Who suggested that they should.
You seem stuck in an outdated debate on whether one should use either their eyes or the advanced metrics.

And who suggested message board posters should be hired?..And next time Dk7 takes it upon himself to bring up the topic of advanced stats with me, I should not engage?

Well, your comments made it seem to me like you thought there was something wrong with the advanced stats, rather than just confusion over what the numbers mean.

I don't think there is anything wrong with advanced stat, I just don't value it as a means of determining who is a good player and who isn't..

So if you ran a team would you go back to the basketball stone age (like 1990s) and not hire any metrics specialists? All the good and even adequate teams are hiring them now.

As with anything else you are going to do whatever you can to get an edge on the other team...It will be silly to totally discredit it without proper examination...Advanced stats is the flavor of the day, no doubt about it..Has it been proven as to be the way or a way to build a team??..NO...Also, I think teams built in the stone age like the Bulls/Pistons/Lakers will be able to hold their own today and then some, metrics or no metrics...

That's a cop-out. Have you done this "proper evaluation"? If so, you should be able to answer the question about whether you'd spend money on metrics specialists or join the Bobcats and Magic as the only teams without metrics departments. Obviously, this is money that could be spent on more scouts instead. If you haven't done this proper evaluation, why are you even commenting on the usefulness of the metrics?

Because these message boards affords you the ability of voicing skepticism where you are a skeptic...Actually when metrics first came out, I looked into the formulas that some of the practitioners used to derive their figures/numbers..They were basically adding numbers together and then multiplying by an arbitrary coefficient, sometimes two different coefficient in one formula and that didn't make sense to me...I always question the need to see an evaluation tool as one figure/number instead of the sum of the parts that could better tell the story of an individual...It just never made sense to me...I haven't gone back to reexamine the topic since that time and nothing ground breaking has emerged...I think I'm safe being a skeptic...

But doing the proper evaluation involves years of study and seeing the outcome based on models you rely upon...You don't know how these will turn out but it seems like you have wholeheartedly endorsed this methodology of evaluating players without results...

What do you mean by without results? And it's not that I have embraced them. It's that every championship team in recent history has.

I'm not sure we can deduce metrics a success because teams has added a department for evaluation...Has GMs/Coaches come out and say we have used metric in player evaluation to get us championship results??..Are players saying they are using metric for better floor/shot selection and it has improve my performance??..I think it's still too early to really know..Isn't the Philly GM a huge metrics guy with multiple articles written about him??..They are battling us for the worst record in the league...

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:Dk, I think you must mean the tightening of these rules...And the answer is yes...I think MJ, Pippen and Rodman/Grant was better than Bron, Wade and Bosh Spice, with a much better coach...They went to the finals 4 consecutive years..

you're right. so the modern era is kind of tin plated because it allows an extra step and palming but does not allow the hand-check. of course i agree with that.

even so, the TS% that you are dismissing actually reflects the sort of tough scoring ability necessary for the playoffs, because it folds in not only 2s and 3s but also free throw attempts.

58%TS michael jordan which is great considering he was not a 3-point shooter but 8FTA regular, 9FTA playoffs. superb finisher

54%TS scottie pippen which is not great but his playmaking was like a guard's and he always elevated his game playoff-wise, great defender

horace grant solid player, underrated passer.

dennis rodman, great defender, underrated passer, best offensive rebounder i ever saw

yeah the miami guys would have been destroyed. how do you think last year's spurs would have done?

Duncan is a little long in the tooth to be anchoring a championship team with no other real interior presence, that's how the game has changed...I'm not sure that a team like Dallas could have won 20/25 years ago but Houston pulled it off with Hakeem in Jordan's absence..It's a tough call..

But the game changes in the playoffs too, the things you rely upon in the regular season may not exist in the playoffs..Will Harden TS% stay the same in the playoffs as the regular season..Will he get the cheap fouls called in the playoffs the way he has in the regular season, against better defenders??..What ref will blow that whistle to put the team's other star on the bench during the playoffs??

Harden does still have a lot to prove in the playoffs. That's a limitation of Harden's experience and past performances, not a limitation of the metrics though. Whether your use the eyeball test, analytics measures, or both, some players will perform differently in the playoffs than the regular season.
Your question is strange though because his free throw shooting has been almost the same in the playoffs as in the regular season.

You are right, his ft's are marginally lower in the playoffs, 2 shots...It's his three point shooting and overall shooting percentage that has suffered..The point I was trying to make was that it's good to know in which areas he is suffering as opposed to just an overall lower TS%..You can better assess how he can improve his numbers and thus his playoff performance...Which I didn't clearly state..

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

helloharv wrote:

holfresh wrote:I was a big Love fan and I'm down on him..Alarm bells went off when he didn't really step up on the Olympic team...He really didn't assert himself..Now you are really seeing it on the Cavs...No way I'll give Love 20 mil per...The money can be spent more wisely..I'll rather pass and wait...

don't you think it would be tough for him to be the 3rd wheel after being the man for his entire life?

here he can be the man on some nights and the 2nd in charge all other nights

I can't wait for the playoffs because it will tell the story...He will have to step up in the playoffs..I'm just not sure if it's just a case of him needing to be the man or have no impact at all...It is kind of alarming that his team in Minny never made the playoffs..Say what you want about Melo, he teams were always in the playoffs in Denver...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2015.html

i am providing you with the link to a page that should clear things up. when looking at the advanced stats you will notice that kevin love's defensive win share is superior to both lebron's and irving's. on espn his real defensive plus/minus has him 10th among power forwards. it turns out that he is an above-average defender-- unless you ignore the advanced metrics.

meanwhile his TS% is at 56% which is not great but is exactly the same as carmelo's better seasons. so if you consider melo an effective scorer then i guess you'll have to say the same about love, and this is with love in a diminished role in cleveland.

and the playoff failure meme is a canard. take a look at those wolves lineups. second-rate and awful. put melo on those teams and it's unmitigated disaster!

So let me get this straight..According to advanced stats, KLove is the best defender on Cleveland Cavs or his defense leads to more wins??

The rebounding is why his defensive win shares is high. The #s on 82games.com and the NBA player tracking stats are better ways to measure man to man defense.

Bonn, what I don't understand is this..Isn't it more important to know how a player arrives at his stats than just looking at one number such as TS%..Isnt the information of knowing a player shoots higher from the three or gets to the foul line or just shoots higher from two point land more important than just looking at one number ?

a thorough understanding of the stats is important, sure. The team's are hiring stats experts, not message board posters for a reason!

I'm not hearing of any teams relieving their scouting departments of their duties either..

huh? Who suggested that they should.
You seem stuck in an outdated debate on whether one should use either their eyes or the advanced metrics.

And who suggested message board posters should be hired?..And next time Dk7 takes it upon himself to bring up the topic of advanced stats with me, I should not engage?

Well, your comments made it seem to me like you thought there was something wrong with the advanced stats, rather than just confusion over what the numbers mean.

I don't think there is anything wrong with advanced stat, I just don't value it as a means of determining who is a good player and who isn't..

So if you ran a team would you go back to the basketball stone age (like 1990s) and not hire any metrics specialists? All the good and even adequate teams are hiring them now.

As with anything else you are going to do whatever you can to get an edge on the other team...It will be silly to totally discredit it without proper examination...Advanced stats is the flavor of the day, no doubt about it..Has it been proven as to be the way or a way to build a team??..NO...Also, I think teams built in the stone age like the Bulls/Pistons/Lakers will be able to hold their own today and then some, metrics or no metrics...

That's a cop-out. Have you done this "proper evaluation"? If so, you should be able to answer the question about whether you'd spend money on metrics specialists or join the Bobcats and Magic as the only teams without metrics departments. Obviously, this is money that could be spent on more scouts instead. If you haven't done this proper evaluation, why are you even commenting on the usefulness of the metrics?

Because these message boards affords you the ability of voicing skepticism where you are a skeptic...Actually when metrics first came out, I looked into the formulas that some of the practitioners used to derive their figures/numbers..They were basically adding numbers together and then multiplying by an arbitrary coefficient, sometimes two different coefficient in one formula and that didn't make sense to me...I always question the need to see an evaluation tool as one figure/number instead of the sum of the parts that could better tell the story of an individual...It just never made sense to me...I haven't gone back to reexamine the topic since that time and nothing ground breaking has emerged...I think I'm safe being a skeptic...

But doing the proper evaluation involves years of study and seeing the outcome based on models you rely upon...You don't know how these will turn out but it seems like you have wholeheartedly endorsed this methodology of evaluating players without results...

What do you mean by without results? And it's not that I have embraced them. It's that every championship team in recent history has.

I'm not sure we can deduce metrics a success because teams has added a department for evaluation...Has GMs/Coaches come out and say we have used metric in player evaluation to get us championship results??..Are players saying they are using metric for better floor/shot selection and it has improve my performance??..I think it's still too early to really know..Isn't the Philly GM a huge metrics guy with multiple articles written about him??..They are battling us for the worst record in the league...

From Cuban:

Wayne Winston. I met with him and pretty much hired him then. We started using advanced plus/minus to help us, and it started to help us quite a bit…it eventually helped us come back from a 2-0 deficit in the playoffs against Houston, based on what the numbers said. Putting JJ (Barea) in the mix in the championship run had a lot to do with analytics. What happens is when a couple teams are using it, you have an advantage, but now that everyone is using it, that advantage is pretty much gone, and that’s where analytics has gotten to now.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

helloharv wrote:

holfresh wrote:I was a big Love fan and I'm down on him..Alarm bells went off when he didn't really step up on the Olympic team...He really didn't assert himself..Now you are really seeing it on the Cavs...No way I'll give Love 20 mil per...The money can be spent more wisely..I'll rather pass and wait...

don't you think it would be tough for him to be the 3rd wheel after being the man for his entire life?

here he can be the man on some nights and the 2nd in charge all other nights

I can't wait for the playoffs because it will tell the story...He will have to step up in the playoffs..I'm just not sure if it's just a case of him needing to be the man or have no impact at all...It is kind of alarming that his team in Minny never made the playoffs..Say what you want about Melo, he teams were always in the playoffs in Denver...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2015.html

i am providing you with the link to a page that should clear things up. when looking at the advanced stats you will notice that kevin love's defensive win share is superior to both lebron's and irving's. on espn his real defensive plus/minus has him 10th among power forwards. it turns out that he is an above-average defender-- unless you ignore the advanced metrics.

meanwhile his TS% is at 56% which is not great but is exactly the same as carmelo's better seasons. so if you consider melo an effective scorer then i guess you'll have to say the same about love, and this is with love in a diminished role in cleveland.

and the playoff failure meme is a canard. take a look at those wolves lineups. second-rate and awful. put melo on those teams and it's unmitigated disaster!

So let me get this straight..According to advanced stats, KLove is the best defender on Cleveland Cavs or his defense leads to more wins??

The rebounding is why his defensive win shares is high. The #s on 82games.com and the NBA player tracking stats are better ways to measure man to man defense.

Bonn, what I don't understand is this..Isn't it more important to know how a player arrives at his stats than just looking at one number such as TS%..Isnt the information of knowing a player shoots higher from the three or gets to the foul line or just shoots higher from two point land more important than just looking at one number ?

a thorough understanding of the stats is important, sure. The team's are hiring stats experts, not message board posters for a reason!

I'm not hearing of any teams relieving their scouting departments of their duties either..

huh? Who suggested that they should.
You seem stuck in an outdated debate on whether one should use either their eyes or the advanced metrics.

And who suggested message board posters should be hired?..And next time Dk7 takes it upon himself to bring up the topic of advanced stats with me, I should not engage?

Well, your comments made it seem to me like you thought there was something wrong with the advanced stats, rather than just confusion over what the numbers mean.

I don't think there is anything wrong with advanced stat, I just don't value it as a means of determining who is a good player and who isn't..

So if you ran a team would you go back to the basketball stone age (like 1990s) and not hire any metrics specialists? All the good and even adequate teams are hiring them now.

As with anything else you are going to do whatever you can to get an edge on the other team...It will be silly to totally discredit it without proper examination...Advanced stats is the flavor of the day, no doubt about it..Has it been proven as to be the way or a way to build a team??..NO...Also, I think teams built in the stone age like the Bulls/Pistons/Lakers will be able to hold their own today and then some, metrics or no metrics...

That's a cop-out. Have you done this "proper evaluation"? If so, you should be able to answer the question about whether you'd spend money on metrics specialists or join the Bobcats and Magic as the only teams without metrics departments. Obviously, this is money that could be spent on more scouts instead. If you haven't done this proper evaluation, why are you even commenting on the usefulness of the metrics?

Because these message boards affords you the ability of voicing skepticism where you are a skeptic...Actually when metrics first came out, I looked into the formulas that some of the practitioners used to derive their figures/numbers..They were basically adding numbers together and then multiplying by an arbitrary coefficient, sometimes two different coefficient in one formula and that didn't make sense to me...I always question the need to see an evaluation tool as one figure/number instead of the sum of the parts that could better tell the story of an individual...It just never made sense to me...I haven't gone back to reexamine the topic since that time and nothing ground breaking has emerged...I think I'm safe being a skeptic...

But doing the proper evaluation involves years of study and seeing the outcome based on models you rely upon...You don't know how these will turn out but it seems like you have wholeheartedly endorsed this methodology of evaluating players without results...

What do you mean by without results? And it's not that I have embraced them. It's that every championship team in recent history has.

I'm not sure we can deduce metrics a success because teams has added a department for evaluation...Has GMs/Coaches come out and say we have used metric in player evaluation to get us championship results??..Are players saying they are using metric for better floor/shot selection and it has improve my performance??..I think it's still too early to really know..Isn't the Philly GM a huge metrics guy with multiple articles written about him??..They are battling us for the worst record in the league...

From Cuban:

Wayne Winston. I met with him and pretty much hired him then. We started using advanced plus/minus to help us, and it started to help us quite a bit…it eventually helped us come back from a 2-0 deficit in the playoffs against Houston, based on what the numbers said. Putting JJ (Barea) in the mix in the championship run had a lot to do with analytics. What happens is when a couple teams are using it, you have an advantage, but now that everyone is using it, that advantage is pretty much gone, and that’s where analytics has gotten to now.

That's a great quote

Barea had a huge offense impact that playoff series getting into the lane..Everyone could see that..Question is what came first, did advance stats foretell this or was it a backward looking indicator which plus/minus essentially is...Point is, I think it's a coach's job and his assistants to recognizing what's working and what isn't and implement it immediately..

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

helloharv wrote:

holfresh wrote:I was a big Love fan and I'm down on him..Alarm bells went off when he didn't really step up on the Olympic team...He really didn't assert himself..Now you are really seeing it on the Cavs...No way I'll give Love 20 mil per...The money can be spent more wisely..I'll rather pass and wait...

don't you think it would be tough for him to be the 3rd wheel after being the man for his entire life?

here he can be the man on some nights and the 2nd in charge all other nights

I can't wait for the playoffs because it will tell the story...He will have to step up in the playoffs..I'm just not sure if it's just a case of him needing to be the man or have no impact at all...It is kind of alarming that his team in Minny never made the playoffs..Say what you want about Melo, he teams were always in the playoffs in Denver...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2015.html

i am providing you with the link to a page that should clear things up. when looking at the advanced stats you will notice that kevin love's defensive win share is superior to both lebron's and irving's. on espn his real defensive plus/minus has him 10th among power forwards. it turns out that he is an above-average defender-- unless you ignore the advanced metrics.

meanwhile his TS% is at 56% which is not great but is exactly the same as carmelo's better seasons. so if you consider melo an effective scorer then i guess you'll have to say the same about love, and this is with love in a diminished role in cleveland.

and the playoff failure meme is a canard. take a look at those wolves lineups. second-rate and awful. put melo on those teams and it's unmitigated disaster!

So let me get this straight..According to advanced stats, KLove is the best defender on Cleveland Cavs or his defense leads to more wins??

The rebounding is why his defensive win shares is high. The #s on 82games.com and the NBA player tracking stats are better ways to measure man to man defense.

Bonn, what I don't understand is this..Isn't it more important to know how a player arrives at his stats than just looking at one number such as TS%..Isnt the information of knowing a player shoots higher from the three or gets to the foul line or just shoots higher from two point land more important than just looking at one number ?

a thorough understanding of the stats is important, sure. The team's are hiring stats experts, not message board posters for a reason!

I'm not hearing of any teams relieving their scouting departments of their duties either..

huh? Who suggested that they should.
You seem stuck in an outdated debate on whether one should use either their eyes or the advanced metrics.

And who suggested message board posters should be hired?..And next time Dk7 takes it upon himself to bring up the topic of advanced stats with me, I should not engage?

Well, your comments made it seem to me like you thought there was something wrong with the advanced stats, rather than just confusion over what the numbers mean.

I don't think there is anything wrong with advanced stat, I just don't value it as a means of determining who is a good player and who isn't..

So if you ran a team would you go back to the basketball stone age (like 1990s) and not hire any metrics specialists? All the good and even adequate teams are hiring them now.

As with anything else you are going to do whatever you can to get an edge on the other team...It will be silly to totally discredit it without proper examination...Advanced stats is the flavor of the day, no doubt about it..Has it been proven as to be the way or a way to build a team??..NO...Also, I think teams built in the stone age like the Bulls/Pistons/Lakers will be able to hold their own today and then some, metrics or no metrics...

That's a cop-out. Have you done this "proper evaluation"? If so, you should be able to answer the question about whether you'd spend money on metrics specialists or join the Bobcats and Magic as the only teams without metrics departments. Obviously, this is money that could be spent on more scouts instead. If you haven't done this proper evaluation, why are you even commenting on the usefulness of the metrics?

Because these message boards affords you the ability of voicing skepticism where you are a skeptic...Actually when metrics first came out, I looked into the formulas that some of the practitioners used to derive their figures/numbers..They were basically adding numbers together and then multiplying by an arbitrary coefficient, sometimes two different coefficient in one formula and that didn't make sense to me...I always question the need to see an evaluation tool as one figure/number instead of the sum of the parts that could better tell the story of an individual...It just never made sense to me...I haven't gone back to reexamine the topic since that time and nothing ground breaking has emerged...I think I'm safe being a skeptic...

But doing the proper evaluation involves years of study and seeing the outcome based on models you rely upon...You don't know how these will turn out but it seems like you have wholeheartedly endorsed this methodology of evaluating players without results...

What do you mean by without results? And it's not that I have embraced them. It's that every championship team in recent history has.

I'm not sure we can deduce metrics a success because teams has added a department for evaluation...Has GMs/Coaches come out and say we have used metric in player evaluation to get us championship results??..Are players saying they are using metric for better floor/shot selection and it has improve my performance??..I think it's still too early to really know..Isn't the Philly GM a huge metrics guy with multiple articles written about him??..They are battling us for the worst record in the league...

From Cuban:

Wayne Winston. I met with him and pretty much hired him then. We started using advanced plus/minus to help us, and it started to help us quite a bit…it eventually helped us come back from a 2-0 deficit in the playoffs against Houston, based on what the numbers said. Putting JJ (Barea) in the mix in the championship run had a lot to do with analytics. What happens is when a couple teams are using it, you have an advantage, but now that everyone is using it, that advantage is pretty much gone, and that’s where analytics has gotten to now.

That's a great quote

Barea had a huge offense impact that playoff series getting into the lane..Everyone could see that..Question is what came first, did advance stats foretell this or was it a backward looking indicator which plus/minus essentially is...Point is, I think it's a coach's job and his assistants to recognizing what's working and what isn't and implement it immediately..

Cuban is saying what came first