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How long will it take for the Knicks to be a real contender? How come other teams with no cap can make deals & we can,t
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Splat
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12/26/2014  10:48 AM
Sum it up with this simple question:

Does a player who eats up 40% of the team's cap produce 40% of the production?

In aggregate, not just PPG.

Or you could find other metrics and rephrase the question however you want to shine a light on it.

Win shares perhaps?

Should a team's fortunes be bound up to the degree they are as the Knicks are with Melo?

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
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nixluva
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12/26/2014  11:16 AM
I'm fully aware just like you guys what Melo's flaws are and what he brings and doesn't bring to the game. I'm fully aware of his hit to the cap and that it's out of proportion to his actual production. None of this means that you can't still build a winning team with him on it. It just means that you have to find quality at a lower price to put around him. That will start with this years draft and developing other young players we have. It can continue with smart FA signings.

We're not getting enough out of every other position on the roster right now. Too many players are performing below their capabilities. Execution is poor due to a lack of passing skills, IQ, not to mention overall talent and perhaps some players no really buying in cuz they know they won't be here. So anytime we can improve on those weaknesses this team will get better. We're talking about building a new core to this team.

F500ONE
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12/26/2014  11:20 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
nixluva wrote:You really think it's not possible to build a team just cuz Melo is on the team? We're about to see a major change in this roster. There's no way around it. Melo is one player of 15 and no team is about just one player. When we get better players, that can play team ball, it will make for a better team.



Here's what Melo can do for you. He can help you win just enough that you never get bad enough to get deep into the draft lottery to get a chance at a game changing prospect, usually the top one or two guys in any draft. You are just good enough to fringe that 8th or 9th spot in the weakened East, but if you get to the playoffs, you won't get anywhere since you will be firebombed by the top seeds. Then you can enjoy the 12-14th pick in the draft, if you even have a draft pick.

We're headed there now

When has a Max Player, Top 5 PURE money maker


Ever led his team to the worst record in the NBA

F500ONE
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12/26/2014  11:23 AM
nixluva wrote:I'm fully aware just like you guys what Melo's flaws are and what he brings and doesn't bring to the game. I'm fully aware of his hit to the cap and that it's out of proportion to his actual production. None of this means that you can't still build a winning team with him on it. It just means that you have to find quality at a lower price to put around him. That will start with this years draft and developing other young players we have. It can continue with smart FA signings.

We're not getting enough out of every other position on the roster right now. Too many players are performing below their capabilities. Execution is poor due to a lack of passing skills, IQ, not to mention overall talent and perhaps some players no really buying in cuz they know they won't be here. So anytime we can improve on those weaknesses this team will get better. We're talking about building a new core to this team.

None of us are interested in seeing

Brooklyn Nets peak in the next 3yrs Nix


Who cares if we can rebuild around Melo to

A Joe Johnson level finale, we're not fans in the business for these results

BRIGGS
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12/26/2014  11:38 AM
Reality the people who make the end decisions just have melo 125 There is nothing else to be said. The bulls and lakers were willing to give him 100mm. So in this case we were not bidding against ourselves. You can either accept melo is part of the team or not probability says he will be here
RIP Crushalot😞
knickscity
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12/26/2014  11:41 AM
nixluva wrote:I'm fully aware just like you guys what Melo's flaws are and what he brings and doesn't bring to the game. I'm fully aware of his hit to the cap and that it's out of proportion to his actual production. None of this means that you can't still build a winning team with him on it. It just means that you have to find quality at a lower price to put around him. That will start with this years draft and developing other young players we have. It can continue with smart FA signings.

We're not getting enough out of every other position on the roster right now. Too many players are performing below their capabilities. Execution is poor due to a lack of passing skills, IQ, not to mention overall talent and perhaps some players no really buying in cuz they know they won't be here. So anytime we can improve on those weaknesses this team will get better. We're talking about building a new core to this team.


Melo is like driving a Hummer to work everyday when you have a confined budget. Cool ride, head turner, gets you to work. but it strains everything else you buy as the provider of your house.

The Knicks confined themselves by not picking up Larkins option....Melo's 22 prevented...Larkins 1.7, and that is a young player who'll likely be gone, so no development there.

The Knicks didnt offer Shumpert a contract either....so if a team swoops in and overpays, Shumpert likely will be gone as well. Fpr the most part he played well within the triangle while Calderon was out....has played like crap the entire time Calderon has been back. Once again...no youth development, he's likely gone.

Early plays melo's position, so does wear, and if thanasis get called in...so doe he. So how do they develop with melo here? they dont....likely wont be here either.

But here is where things really get interesting.....the draft pick. Okafor doesnt play defense at all, you cant pair him up with melo who usually dont play defense. Okafor is a scorer, does Melo allow him to develop on offense? Who knows.

Towns on the other hands has a refined offensive game and does defend rebound pass etc....but he plays a team oriented game. he wont develop with melo either because his nature is to get other guys going, so he'll take the ultimate back seat to melo.

It all centers around melo...even the player who are willing to come as free agents.

knickscity
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12/26/2014  11:45 AM
BRIGGS wrote:Reality the people who make the end decisions just have melo 125 There is nothing else to be said. The bulls and lakers were willing to give him 100mm. So in this case we were not bidding against ourselves. You can either accept melo is part of the team or not probability says he will be here

The Bulls didnt have 100 mil to offer, and they made zero moves to clear that space. The Knicks were bidding against themselves.
F500ONE
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12/26/2014  11:48 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/26/2014  11:54 AM
BRIGGS wrote:Reality the people who make the end decisions just have melo 125 There is nothing else to be said. The bulls and lakers were willing to give him 100mm. So in this case we were not bidding against ourselves. You can either accept melo is part of the team or not probability says he will be here

The Bulls did not offer $100mil

Lakers offered $97mil and we gave him $30mil more


Yes we did bid against ourselves

Add Negotiating to Salary Cap Brush Up on your to do list

gunsnewing
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12/26/2014  11:53 AM
Most Bulls could offer was $74mil I believe
RonRon
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12/26/2014  2:22 PM
Chicago and Houston already have a stacked team with ALL STARS already
At the time, Lakers actually has a better roster and brighter future at the time they had a pick

We are in STEP 1 of the process and CA isn't getting any younger

It takes time to build a team and it is impossible to build a contender unless suddendly we seem to pick out a bunch of steals like Manu/Parker/Ibaka
And signing vet min players to 2 year deals that play like ALL STARS

Again, I didn't care if CA wanted to get paid, however, it had to have happened AFTER we acquired a solid core with a *WINK WINK* deal like we did with JR and Chris Smith
However, if we pay him first, we simply do not have the ability to build the a team around him

Nalod
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12/26/2014  2:24 PM
F500ONE wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Reality the people who make the end decisions just have melo 125 There is nothing else to be said. The bulls and lakers were willing to give him 100mm. So in this case we were not bidding against ourselves. You can either accept melo is part of the team or not probability says he will be here

The Bulls did not offer $100mil

Lakers offered $97mil and we gave him $30mil more


Yes we did bid against ourselves

Add Negotiating to Salary Cap Brush Up on your to do list

Nuh uh, Melo was not.......

Splat
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12/26/2014  2:37 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/26/2014  2:38 PM
RonRon wrote:Chicago and Houston already have a stacked team with ALL STARS already
At the time, Lakers actually has a better roster and brighter future at the time they had a pick

We are in STEP 1 of the process and CA isn't getting any younger

It takes time to build a team and it is impossible to build a contender unless suddendly we seem to pick out a bunch of steals like Manu/Parker/Ibaka
And signing vet min players to 2 year deals that play like ALL STARS

Again, I didn't care if CA wanted to get paid, however, it had to have happened AFTER we acquired a solid core with a *WINK WINK* deal like we did with JR and Chris Smith
However, if we pay him first, we simply do not have the ability to build the a team around him

Yes. It is so basic.

Trying to tell some here this basic principle is like talking to a wall.

You add Melo to a team that is mostly already constructed.

You do not build around Melo.

Or if you insist on doing so, you don't commit that much cap space for 5 years with a no-trade clause to a player heading into their declining years.

It is all so obvious. Lots of baby talk going on here when people can't grasp these basic realities. They want to tear your face off if you stick to these as your core assumptions.

If Melo were added to my already decent team at a reasonable price, I'd be singing a completely different tune.

The Bulls understood Melo's realistic value and they were not going to give up value to get him.

The Knicks set his market value where the Knicks usually set market values which is stratopheric prices for non-franchise players.

I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cowbell!
Papabear
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12/26/2014  3:08 PM
nixluva wrote:
F500ONE wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:From Mannix:
The Knicks don’t need Jackson dumping a drawer full of rings in front of Love; they need him in Lexington evaluating Karl Towns or in Texas studying Myles Turner. They need him doing what Sam Presti, R.C. Buford and every other top executive does, and they need him to do it better. Jackson brought credibility to the franchise when he assumed his new role. Now, he has to bring something more.

http://www.si.com/nba/2014/12/25/knicks-wizards-christmas-carmelo-anthony-phil-jackson-john-wall

What I've been saying all along

As I said if Presti, Morey, Masai, Buford, Hinkie, Ainge


Took over this franchise irregardless of pay

No way it looks like it does today and we'd have more assets[picks] in the fold


Phil needs to be a better exec than them, no question about it

The potions and spells of triangle pixie dust will not get it done


Phil hasn't even gotten thru his 1st Trade Deadline much less a full NBA season. How can you fully judge anything based off such a short period of time? He has added picks and young players and i'm sure he'll add more. Give the man a damn chance to work.

Papabear Says

Was Woody given a fair shot? After seeing what is going on now I think Woody did an ok job last with the talent he had,

Papabear
misterearl
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12/26/2014  3:43 PM
Mike Woodson was a genius
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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12/26/2014  3:45 PM
TrileThreat Is the man

Thoughtful. Detailed. Never boring.

Two thumbs up

once a knick always a knick
Bonn1997
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12/26/2014  4:26 PM
RonRon wrote:Chicago and Houston already have a stacked team with ALL STARS already
At the time, Lakers actually has a better roster and brighter future at the time they had a pick

We are in STEP 1 of the process and CA isn't getting any younger

It takes time to build a team and it is impossible to build a contender unless suddendly we seem to pick out a bunch of steals like Manu/Parker/Ibaka
And signing vet min players to 2 year deals that play like ALL STARS

Again, I didn't care if CA wanted to get paid, however, it had to have happened AFTER we acquired a solid core with a *WINK WINK* deal like we did with JR and Chris Smith
However, if we pay him first, we simply do not have the ability to build the a team around him


Exactly. That's one of the many reasons why this is so unlikely to work
newyorknewyork
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12/26/2014  4:36 PM
Knicks only had a max contract to offer Melo and the ability to keep his family intact in NY. That's all the Knicks had to offer. If they offer Carmelo less money then there is no reason for him not to sign with the Bulls for less money to be on a better team.

So we could have let Melo walk, went full rebuild over a 5yr span or something. But Phil choose to not lose him for nothing. So what Phil needs to do is to continue to treat this like a rebuilding situation even with Melo on the roster. Then either Melo can accept the rebuild and play along or demand a trade, remove his no trade clause, and we get something back for him.

You guys can talk about why we shouldn't have resigned Melo for 124mil until your blue in the face. None of that is relevant to our current situation as Melo was resigned for 124mil over the next 5yrs with a no trade clause. The only discussion that is meaningful is what we can do going forward under these circumstances.

I say we depend on the draft more rather then free agency as you are able to exceed the salary cap resigning your draft picks making Carmelo's salary less impact full.

https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
holfresh
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12/26/2014  4:41 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
nixluva wrote:You really think it's not possible to build a team just cuz Melo is on the team? We're about to see a major change in this roster. There's no way around it. Melo is one player of 15 and no team is about just one player. When we get better players, that can play team ball, it will make for a better team.


I'm at the point where I think you simply cannot see or don't want to see the larger long term view of how teams are built in the modern NBA.

Melo makes 40 percent of the cap. While the cap will go up, it's not like the other teams in the league are going to be restricted and only the Knicks will get the bump in money. Also, raising the cap will work in a relative sense, player salaries will go up as well. To win a title, you need rim protection, you need a guy who can defend who play above the rim who isn't a complete stiff on offense. Young guys who can do this take time to develop, big men historically take longer to develop than other NBA skill positions. Older guys who can do this are veterans and the minimum cost for a player who can do this is going to push 10-12 million a year. A contender also needs wings who can defend and are athletic enough and long enough to work the perimeter, slash and shut down passing lanes. Wings get paid. Even ones just on potential. Even guys who aren't Alpha quality wings get paid. There's a reason Tyreke Evans, Alec Burks, Gordon Hayward and Avery Bradley all got paid recently, mostly on potential instead of production. To contend, you really need two effective wings. You also need enough bench depth to give your lead pivot a solid big man rotation. You need a quality third guard and you need some glue guys/solid role players. All cost money.

Melo is a power forward. Call him what you want, but he's not able to defend the average NBA wing and as he ages, it will only get worse defensively. His best position and where he creates the most mismatches and uses his extra weight to his advantage is power forward. The Knicks have big money tied up now in PF and PG going forward, which are the two positions where many elite teams are able to get by and spend less and use more mining and less expensive options to get by.

You simply can't make 40 percent of a teams cap and not play defense and ever hope to win. You can't make that much, plus Calderon's salary which can't be moved easily, and find money for a true pivot and couple of effective wings. Maybe you can draft them. Except the Knicks are barren of draft assets in the next few years. And even if you could draft them, they will take time to develop, by that time, Melo's contract will likely be up.

Here's what Melo can do for you. He can help you win just enough that you never get bad enough to get deep into the draft lottery to get a chance at a game changing prospect, usually the top one or two guys in any draft. You are just good enough to fringe that 8th or 9th spot in the weakened East, but if you get to the playoffs, you won't get anywhere since you will be firebombed by the top seeds. Then you can enjoy the 12-14th pick in the draft, if you even have a draft pick.

How do you get better players on a perpetually bad team? You can overpay them. But that means you are choking out even more of that 60 percent left for the rest of the roster situation when you need a quality pivot and pair of wings. And you face the reality that "better players" might be better than what you have, but there's a reason why free agents were let free by their own franchises. The true game changers were likely locked up or restricted.

No team is one player, that is correct. But when your star player has so many deficiencies that you need expanded roster help to build a team around him, you start to play a game of how much cap space do I really need to build a team? This is why Chicago was willing to give Melo their open cap space but not gut their team in a sign and trade for him. Because his limitations would mean they needed much more of their roster held to actually contend with him.

You also miss the issue that Melo doesn't make his team mates better. He doesn't elevate the play of the guys around him. People like to point to the quality of opponent that the Knicks faced during Linsanity. That certain teams were weakened by injury or having a bad year or this team was on the end of a back to back. But Jeremy Lin simply elevated the play of the guys around him. His impact on the roster compared to Melo was like night and day. On the current roster, Melo, if he was what the Knicks needed, and at his base cost, should be elevating the play of those around him. When you make 40 percent of the cap, it's your duty as the team leader. ( Or did it elude you that the year the Nuggets made a push, it was Billups who lead the locker room and floor?)

Do you know who have no leadership responsibilities, are designated gunners set to run an offense while the other four guys do the rest of the dirty work, and often are built for beating other players in a one on one environment?

Sixth men. Melo would be a quality 6th man on a very elite team. But a 6th man can't make 40 percent of your cap.

Melo is in a situation very close to what Herschel Walker went through in Dallas with the Cowboys. Except Walker was in elite shape, cared, tried to be a leader and gave his all in all instances. If you have no clue why Walker got traded off the Cowboys roster, then you'll have no conception why Melo is a bad roster fit for this current Knicks team.

Melo is so much like Rod Tidwell without the happy ending in Jerry Maguire that it isn't even funny anymore ( i.e. a pro athlete who desperately wants the love of the fans and public but is too arrogant/ignorant/tone deaf to understand why he won't ever get it)


Oh stop it...Pecentage of what a guy makes has nothing to do with winning..There are plenty of teams that won with guys who made over 40% of the cap on their roster...Kobe in 2009,2010, Duncan, Garnett in Biston, MJ in Chicgo, Dirk in Dallas and I can name more and more..It depends on the skilled front office roster building ability..Surrounding Melo with the right talent..If anything, it shows you need at least one high priced player to win...
gunsnewing
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12/26/2014  4:44 PM
^Those guys are alltime greats. Sure fire Hall of Famers
F500ONE
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12/26/2014  4:51 PM
gunsnewing wrote:^Those guys are alltime greats. Sure fire Hall of Famers

I can't believed he mentioned them

No wait I actually can

How long will it take for the Knicks to be a real contender? How come other teams with no cap can make deals & we can,t

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