knickscity wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knickscity wrote:

mreinman wrote:2.7 turnovers per game vs 1.5 assists.

2.7 is defined as MR Turnover? Dude please.

Cant Imagine how you felt about Patrick Ewing back in the day.

Dude you please.

I thought that his assist -> turnover ratio sucked.

Are you saying that Amare did not have a turnover problem? Never saw him go 1 on 5 and turn the ball over?

Are you one of those guys that kill Melo for what the way he pissed that day but are blind to anything negative about amare? If yes, I will move along ... no patience for blind extremism.

Actually I dont rate SCORERS by their assists to turnovers....it's a dumb way to rate them.

But if under 3 is turnovcer prone or even a problem in your book, your book is best left closed.

My issues with Amare is his defense, outside of that i have none.

My issue with melo is his salary when he is not worth the price on the court, but in his case, if he shoots 43% from the field....yeah he should pass. When he hits over 50% for his CAREER like Amare does no matter when he plays....he aint gotta pass at all.

Bonn1997 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knickscity wrote:

mreinman wrote:2.7 turnovers per game vs 1.5 assists.

2.7 is defined as MR Turnover? Dude please.

Cant Imagine how you felt about Patrick Ewing back in the day.

Dude you please.

I thought that his assist -> turnover ratio sucked.

Are you saying that Amare did not have a turnover problem? Never saw him go 1 on 5 and turn the ball over?

Are you one of those guys that kill Melo for what the way he pissed that day but are blind to anything negative about amare? If yes, I will move along ... no patience for blind extremism.

Actually I dont rate SCORERS by their assists to turnovers....it's a dumb way to rate them.

But if under 3 is turnovcer prone or even a problem in your book, your book is best left closed.

My issues with Amare is his defense, outside of that i have none.

My issue with melo is his salary when he is not worth the price on the court, but in his case, if he shoots 43% from the field....yeah he should pass. When he hits over 50% for his CAREER like Amare does no matter when he plays....he aint gotta pass at all.

I have to side with mreinman here. It doesn't matter if you label the guy a "scorer." The high turnover rate and low assists still hurt the team. 1.3 assists and 2.5 turnovers a game? that means out of 3.8 possessions the team is getting about 2.6 points.

knickscity wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knickscity wrote:

mreinman wrote:2.7 turnovers per game vs 1.5 assists.

2.7 is defined as MR Turnover? Dude please.

Cant Imagine how you felt about Patrick Ewing back in the day.

Dude you please.

I thought that his assist -> turnover ratio sucked.

Are you saying that Amare did not have a turnover problem? Never saw him go 1 on 5 and turn the ball over?

Are you one of those guys that kill Melo for what the way he pissed that day but are blind to anything negative about amare? If yes, I will move along ... no patience for blind extremism.

Actually I dont rate SCORERS by their assists to turnovers....it's a dumb way to rate them.

But if under 3 is turnovcer prone or even a problem in your book, your book is best left closed.

My issues with Amare is his defense, outside of that i have none.

My issue with melo is his salary when he is not worth the price on the court, but in his case, if he shoots 43% from the field....yeah he should pass. When he hits over 50% for his CAREER like Amare does no matter when he plays....he aint gotta pass at all.

I have to side with mreinman here. It doesn't matter if you label the guy a "scorer." The high turnover rate and low assists still hurt the team. 1.3 assists and 2.5 turnovers a game? that means out of 3.8 possessions the team is getting about 2.6 points.

I honestly dont find that to be be a high number, and I really dont just feel the need to look at a players assist total when they efficient shooting the basketball....definitely not for a big. That's like looking at a guards rebound totals and saying his rebound rate hurts the team. It really just doesnt make sense.

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knickscity wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knickscity wrote:

mreinman wrote:2.7 turnovers per game vs 1.5 assists.

2.7 is defined as MR Turnover? Dude please.

Cant Imagine how you felt about Patrick Ewing back in the day.

Dude you please.

I thought that his assist -> turnover ratio sucked.

Are you saying that Amare did not have a turnover problem? Never saw him go 1 on 5 and turn the ball over?

Are you one of those guys that kill Melo for what the way he pissed that day but are blind to anything negative about amare? If yes, I will move along ... no patience for blind extremism.

Actually I dont rate SCORERS by their assists to turnovers....it's a dumb way to rate them.

But if under 3 is turnovcer prone or even a problem in your book, your book is best left closed.

My issues with Amare is his defense, outside of that i have none.

My issue with melo is his salary when he is not worth the price on the court, but in his case, if he shoots 43% from the field....yeah he should pass. When he hits over 50% for his CAREER like Amare does no matter when he plays....he aint gotta pass at all.

Inferring that I rate players by assist to turnovers is dumb in itself. I did not state that.

Melo shoots 43%?

If your only issue with Amare is defense then you know very little about basketball. I am assuming that you then probably have more issues with Amare other than defense. HOW ABOUT REBOUNDING? Fukk passing ... that is only for losers. Did you know that his USG -> Assists ratio is one of the worst possible? Oh right ... Ewing didn't pass either (which happens to be his biggest asterisk) so its perfect.

the assists issue only became viable when he was no longer being set up as a pick and roll finisher by one of he truly great pick and roll players. i know there was more to stoudemire's game than that of a finisher in phoenix, but when he came to new york and began to play with inferior point guards AND he began to incorporate more elbow plays, the need to pass the rock had become increasingly vital for team success.

to his credit his assist percentage almost doubled his first half of 2011-2012, even as his usage jumped 4 points or so. and his assists also were the highest of his career. he was trying, but he just wasn't/isn't good enough in this capacity. and of course his TS% plummeted to a barely acceptable 56.5%. hardly mvp numbers to my mind and yet he was being touted as such by many. again, the numbers do not support this, nor did my eyes at the time.

bottom line he was never meant to be the type of player that he was trying to be his first 50 games as a knick. for that he would have needed nash here or chris paul. that way his strengths are maximalized and his profound weaknesses are masked just enough for him to be a positive-sum player. this is one of the reasons (among several) why i count the melo trade as more a betrayal than a boon-- to not only stoudemire but also d'antoni and several role players like fields, for instance.

so i'll take a guy who is primarily a finisher with a 62%TS on a team, especially when he gets to the line 7-8 times a game. free throws are a big deal in the playoffs.

How can you defend his RPM's? The STAT that you sold as "the all new advanced stat"? It has him at 425 lowest out of 430 players.

And you know that he only goes to the line 5.5 times a game as a knick?

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knickscity wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knickscity wrote:

mreinman wrote:2.7 turnovers per game vs 1.5 assists.

2.7 is defined as MR Turnover? Dude please.

Cant Imagine how you felt about Patrick Ewing back in the day.

Dude you please.

I thought that his assist -> turnover ratio sucked.

Are you saying that Amare did not have a turnover problem? Never saw him go 1 on 5 and turn the ball over?

Are you one of those guys that kill Melo for what the way he pissed that day but are blind to anything negative about amare? If yes, I will move along ... no patience for blind extremism.

Actually I dont rate SCORERS by their assists to turnovers....it's a dumb way to rate them.

But if under 3 is turnovcer prone or even a problem in your book, your book is best left closed.

My issues with Amare is his defense, outside of that i have none.

My issue with melo is his salary when he is not worth the price on the court, but in his case, if he shoots 43% from the field....yeah he should pass. When he hits over 50% for his CAREER like Amare does no matter when he plays....he aint gotta pass at all.

Inferring that I rate players by assist to turnovers is dumb in itself. I did not state that.

Melo shoots 43%?

If your only issue with Amare is defense then you know very little about basketball. I am assuming that you then probably have more issues with Amare other than defense. HOW ABOUT REBOUNDING? Fukk passing ... that is only for losers. Did you know that his USG -> Assists ratio is one of the worst possible? Oh right ... Ewing didn't pass either (which happens to be his biggest asterisk) so its perfect.

the assists issue only became viable when he was no longer being set up as a pick and roll finisher by one of he truly great pick and roll players. i know there was more to stoudemire's game than that of a finisher in phoenix, but when he came to new york and began to play with inferior point guards AND he began to incorporate more elbow plays, the need to pass the rock had become increasingly vital for team success.

to his credit his assist percentage almost doubled his first half of 2011-2012, even as his usage jumped 4 points or so. and his assists also were the highest of his career. he was trying, but he just wasn't/isn't good enough in this capacity. and of course his TS% plummeted to a barely acceptable 56.5%. hardly mvp numbers to my mind and yet he was being touted as such by many. again, the numbers do not support this, nor did my eyes at the time.

bottom line he was never meant to be the type of player that he was trying to be his first 50 games as a knick. for that he would have needed nash here or chris paul. that way his strengths are maximalized and his profound weaknesses are masked just enough for him to be a positive-sum player. this is one of the reasons (among several) why i count the melo trade as more a betrayal than a boon-- to not only stoudemire but also d'antoni and several role players like fields, for instance.

so i'll take a guy who is primarily a finisher with a 62%TS on a team, especially when he gets to the line 7-8 times a game. free throws are a big deal in the playoffs.

How can you defend his RPM's? The STAT that you sold as "the all new advanced stat"? It has him at 425 lowest out of 430 players.

And you know that he only goes to the line 5.5 times a game as a knick?

if you want to be absolutely fair you will need to look at that figure when he was a phoenix suns player.

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:I think the circumstances will be different for him in this system. He's gonna be put in a different position in this offense. Less of the PnR and more pure Post up with more space to operate or make a simple hand off or short pass to a cutter. It's a better set of choices for a player with limited BB IQ and passing skills. He's closer to the basket on more plays and his read is simpler. He has a cutter go baseline and the next guy cuts from the 3pt line thru the paint and his other shoulder. If he's doubled he has a open teammate less than 10' away in prime scoring position or a man open at the 3pt line. He'll be doing this over and over again in practice and in games for an entire season. Trust me it gets to be 2nd nature after all that repetition. I think he'll eventually get the hang of it and thrive. If not we know for sure and can stay away from having him be in that situation. There's enough versatility in this system to accommodate a player with limited skills. Unlike Woody I doubt Fish will continue to go with something that clearly doesn't work. Not with so many other options.

So who do you think will NOT flourish next year?

Where did I say he would flourish??? See if I wrote that he was a lock to turn into a top passing big like Noah, then you could accuse me of being pie in the sky. I merely explained the FACTS of STAT in this system. The difference of the Triangle verses the way he was used most of his career. He'll be playing a much different role in the Triangle. The Triangle isn't a heavy PnR offense and so him being in the post with cutters moving by him and shooters coming around screens will give him a few more options before he goes into his move. It's not my intention to just throw crap out there. I never do. I fully explain my points in relation to the real situation we're gonna see this year. Unless you have knowledge of some other system the team will be playing this year.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:I think the circumstances will be different for him in this system. He's gonna be put in a different position in this offense. Less of the PnR and more pure Post up with more space to operate or make a simple hand off or short pass to a cutter. It's a better set of choices for a player with limited BB IQ and passing skills. He's closer to the basket on more plays and his read is simpler. He has a cutter go baseline and the next guy cuts from the 3pt line thru the paint and his other shoulder. If he's doubled he has a open teammate less than 10' away in prime scoring position or a man open at the 3pt line. He'll be doing this over and over again in practice and in games for an entire season. Trust me it gets to be 2nd nature after all that repetition. I think he'll eventually get the hang of it and thrive. If not we know for sure and can stay away from having him be in that situation. There's enough versatility in this system to accommodate a player with limited skills. Unlike Woody I doubt Fish will continue to go with something that clearly doesn't work. Not with so many other options.

So who do you think will NOT flourish next year?

Where did I say he would flourish??? See if I wrote that he was a lock to turn into a top passing big like Noah, then you could accuse me of being pie in the sky. I merely explained the FACTS of STAT in this system. The difference of the Triangle verses the way he was used most of his career. He'll be playing a much different role in the Triangle. The Triangle isn't a heavy PnR offense and so him being in the post with cutters moving by him and shooters coming around screens will give him a few more options before he goes into his move. It's not my intention to just throw crap out there. I never do. I fully explain my points in relation to the real situation we're gonna see this year. Unless you have knowledge of some other system the team will be playing this year.

It's a reasonable question. Do you think anyone on the team will have subpar seasons (#s below their career averages)?

What's reasonable about it? You want me to try and guess who doesn't fit in this system and might have a bad year? Sometimes a player just has a down year. Thing is we did that last year, when many players played well below their career avg's. I would say that Phil already made changes that he could to address that issue as well as chemistry issues he saw. If a player is still here he's gonna do everything he can to help them be productive. His system is designed to lift the performance of all the players on the team in a TEAM concept. He's known for creating an environment that allows players to excel. The environment last year was toxic and not conducive to players performing at their best. If you have some other interpretation of the environment last year i'd like to hear it.

Most important is how they all function as a GROUP!!! Phil wants to have this team be more like the Spurs in terms of getting the team to function at a high level which may not mean individuals put up career numbers but the team as a whole still functions at a high level. You really don't focus on individuals as much with the Spurs. That's what Phil is looking to institute here. So when I mention that STAT will be in the post in the Triangle and have cutters to look for and easy passes to make it's a change in that the movements are prescribed and repeated so much that a big like him has a chance to get used to it and know what to expect. The more he's in this system the better he'll get at anticipating what is happening and what to do. Doesn't mean he'll be the greatest at it, but he should get better and have a chance to develop chemistry with his teammates in this TEAM oriented system and overall better environment for team play.

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knickscity wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knickscity wrote:

mreinman wrote:2.7 turnovers per game vs 1.5 assists.

2.7 is defined as MR Turnover? Dude please.

Cant Imagine how you felt about Patrick Ewing back in the day.

Dude you please.

I thought that his assist -> turnover ratio sucked.

Are you saying that Amare did not have a turnover problem? Never saw him go 1 on 5 and turn the ball over?

Are you one of those guys that kill Melo for what the way he pissed that day but are blind to anything negative about amare? If yes, I will move along ... no patience for blind extremism.

Actually I dont rate SCORERS by their assists to turnovers....it's a dumb way to rate them.

But if under 3 is turnovcer prone or even a problem in your book, your book is best left closed.

My issues with Amare is his defense, outside of that i have none.

My issue with melo is his salary when he is not worth the price on the court, but in his case, if he shoots 43% from the field....yeah he should pass. When he hits over 50% for his CAREER like Amare does no matter when he plays....he aint gotta pass at all.

Inferring that I rate players by assist to turnovers is dumb in itself. I did not state that.

Melo shoots 43%?

If your only issue with Amare is defense then you know very little about basketball. I am assuming that you then probably have more issues with Amare other than defense. HOW ABOUT REBOUNDING? Fukk passing ... that is only for losers. Did you know that his USG -> Assists ratio is one of the worst possible? Oh right ... Ewing didn't pass either (which happens to be his biggest asterisk) so its perfect.

the assists issue only became viable when he was no longer being set up as a pick and roll finisher by one of he truly great pick and roll players. i know there was more to stoudemire's game than that of a finisher in phoenix, but when he came to new york and began to play with inferior point guards AND he began to incorporate more elbow plays, the need to pass the rock had become increasingly vital for team success.

to his credit his assist percentage almost doubled his first half of 2011-2012, even as his usage jumped 4 points or so. and his assists also were the highest of his career. he was trying, but he just wasn't/isn't good enough in this capacity. and of course his TS% plummeted to a barely acceptable 56.5%. hardly mvp numbers to my mind and yet he was being touted as such by many. again, the numbers do not support this, nor did my eyes at the time.

bottom line he was never meant to be the type of player that he was trying to be his first 50 games as a knick. for that he would have needed nash here or chris paul. that way his strengths are maximalized and his profound weaknesses are masked just enough for him to be a positive-sum player. this is one of the reasons (among several) why i count the melo trade as more a betrayal than a boon-- to not only stoudemire but also d'antoni and several role players like fields, for instance.

so i'll take a guy who is primarily a finisher with a 62%TS on a team, especially when he gets to the line 7-8 times a game. free throws are a big deal in the playoffs.

Pretty decent breakdown but being fair

In this abridgment of yours is this principally based or a result of what we ended up with

The reason I ask, we didn't have any point guard close to Nash when acquiring Amar'e

The opportunities down the road could have produced an over the hill Nash

Not a diligent way to build a team

It didn't take long for Phx to recover

Once they moved on from Amar'e and Nash

Only 1 true losing season

We may have had a shot at Chris Paul////

Very slim chance and at what cost

What players wouldn't have benefited playing with Nash and CP3

Since we're retroflecting

I don't think it would have taken $80mil to resign David Lee

Wouldn't he have benefited playing with Nash or CP3, much cheaper than Amar'e for sure

Aren't his usage rates just as good, hasn't he been better

As much as I hate to say this, he's probably a better match to play with Melo

Bottomline Amar'e and Melo were disastrous signings

No matter how much the metrics are massaged, fondled, and groped

dk7th wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knickscity wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knickscity wrote:

mreinman wrote:2.7 turnovers per game vs 1.5 assists.

2.7 is defined as MR Turnover? Dude please.

Cant Imagine how you felt about Patrick Ewing back in the day.

Dude you please.

I thought that his assist -> turnover ratio sucked.

Are you saying that Amare did not have a turnover problem? Never saw him go 1 on 5 and turn the ball over?

Are you one of those guys that kill Melo for what the way he pissed that day but are blind to anything negative about amare? If yes, I will move along ... no patience for blind extremism.

Actually I dont rate SCORERS by their assists to turnovers....it's a dumb way to rate them.

But if under 3 is turnovcer prone or even a problem in your book, your book is best left closed.

My issues with Amare is his defense, outside of that i have none.

My issue with melo is his salary when he is not worth the price on the court, but in his case, if he shoots 43% from the field....yeah he should pass. When he hits over 50% for his CAREER like Amare does no matter when he plays....he aint gotta pass at all.

Inferring that I rate players by assist to turnovers is dumb in itself. I did not state that.

Melo shoots 43%?

If your only issue with Amare is defense then you know very little about basketball. I am assuming that you then probably have more issues with Amare other than defense. HOW ABOUT REBOUNDING? Fukk passing ... that is only for losers. Did you know that his USG -> Assists ratio is one of the worst possible? Oh right ... Ewing didn't pass either (which happens to be his biggest asterisk) so its perfect.

the assists issue only became viable when he was no longer being set up as a pick and roll finisher by one of he truly great pick and roll players. i know there was more to stoudemire's game than that of a finisher in phoenix, but when he came to new york and began to play with inferior point guards AND he began to incorporate more elbow plays, the need to pass the rock had become increasingly vital for team success.

to his credit his assist percentage almost doubled his first half of 2011-2012, even as his usage jumped 4 points or so. and his assists also were the highest of his career. he was trying, but he just wasn't/isn't good enough in this capacity. and of course his TS% plummeted to a barely acceptable 56.5%. hardly mvp numbers to my mind and yet he was being touted as such by many. again, the numbers do not support this, nor did my eyes at the time.

bottom line he was never meant to be the type of player that he was trying to be his first 50 games as a knick. for that he would have needed nash here or chris paul. that way his strengths are maximalized and his profound weaknesses are masked just enough for him to be a positive-sum player. this is one of the reasons (among several) why i count the melo trade as more a betrayal than a boon-- to not only stoudemire but also d'antoni and several role players like fields, for instance.

so i'll take a guy who is primarily a finisher with a 62%TS on a team, especially when he gets to the line 7-8 times a game. free throws are a big deal in the playoffs.

How can you defend his RPM's? The STAT that you sold as "the all new advanced stat"? It has him at 425 lowest out of 430 players.

And you know that he only goes to the line 5.5 times a game as a knick?

if you want to be absolutely fair you will need to look at that figure when he was a phoenix suns player.

Why? That's not the player we have

because of the premise i introduced in my initial response to reinman this morning.

Lets stick to 100 million dollar KNICK Amare. Phoenix Amare no longer exists nor does Phoenix Nash.

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knickscity wrote:

mreinman wrote:

knickscity wrote:

mreinman wrote:2.7 turnovers per game vs 1.5 assists.

2.7 is defined as MR Turnover? Dude please.

Cant Imagine how you felt about Patrick Ewing back in the day.

Dude you please.

I thought that his assist -> turnover ratio sucked.

Are you saying that Amare did not have a turnover problem? Never saw him go 1 on 5 and turn the ball over?

Are you one of those guys that kill Melo for what the way he pissed that day but are blind to anything negative about amare? If yes, I will move along ... no patience for blind extremism.

Actually I dont rate SCORERS by their assists to turnovers....it's a dumb way to rate them.

But if under 3 is turnovcer prone or even a problem in your book, your book is best left closed.

My issues with Amare is his defense, outside of that i have none.

My issue with melo is his salary when he is not worth the price on the court, but in his case, if he shoots 43% from the field....yeah he should pass. When he hits over 50% for his CAREER like Amare does no matter when he plays....he aint gotta pass at all.

Inferring that I rate players by assist to turnovers is dumb in itself. I did not state that.

Melo shoots 43%?

If your only issue with Amare is defense then you know very little about basketball. I am assuming that you then probably have more issues with Amare other than defense. HOW ABOUT REBOUNDING? Fukk passing ... that is only for losers. Did you know that his USG -> Assists ratio is one of the worst possible? Oh right ... Ewing didn't pass either (which happens to be his biggest asterisk) so its perfect.

the assists issue only became viable when he was no longer being set up as a pick and roll finisher by one of he truly great pick and roll players. i know there was more to stoudemire's game than that of a finisher in phoenix, but when he came to new york and began to play with inferior point guards AND he began to incorporate more elbow plays, the need to pass the rock had become increasingly vital for team success.

to his credit his assist percentage almost doubled his first half of 2011-2012, even as his usage jumped 4 points or so. and his assists also were the highest of his career. he was trying, but he just wasn't/isn't good enough in this capacity. and of course his TS% plummeted to a barely acceptable 56.5%. hardly mvp numbers to my mind and yet he was being touted as such by many. again, the numbers do not support this, nor did my eyes at the time.

bottom line he was never meant to be the type of player that he was trying to be his first 50 games as a knick. for that he would have needed nash here or chris paul. that way his strengths are maximalized and his profound weaknesses are masked just enough for him to be a positive-sum player. this is one of the reasons (among several) why i count the melo trade as more a betrayal than a boon-- to not only stoudemire but also d'antoni and several role players like fields, for instance.

so i'll take a guy who is primarily a finisher with a 62%TS on a team, especially when he gets to the line 7-8 times a game. free throws are a big deal in the playoffs.

How can you defend his RPM's? The STAT that you sold as "the all new advanced stat"? It has him at 425 lowest out of 430 players.

And you know that he only goes to the line 5.5 times a game as a knick?

if you want to be absolutely fair you will need to look at that figure when he was a phoenix suns player.

Why? That's not the player we have

because of the premise i introduced in my initial response to reinman this morning.

Lets stick to 100 million dollar KNICK Amare. Phoenix Amare no longer exists nor does Phoenix Nash.

I am sorry but you do not understand. Amar'e was misused and abused. He did not sign on to play with a roster without Nash. That wwas not his plan when he signed in NY. You need to stop picking on amar'e and talking about his flaws. It is much better to focus on what Amar'e used to do and how he was very good for a few months/ maybe season as a Knick. Feel sorry for Amar'e or be gone!!!

Your first sentence threw me off :-)

Actually, Amare's first season in NY (the MVP season) was interestingly one of his most inefficient of his career. His TS was a sh1tty Melo like 56.