Bargs played well at Center in some lineups. There were some bad lineups that didn't work, but blaming it on Bargs is just crazy. I said it last year that it's easy to pick on Bargs as the reason even when it was Felton, JR and Shump unable to hit the side of a barn. This system is much better in that a guy like Bargs will touch the ball much more and remain focused more since he's going to be in the middle of the plays.

1	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | J. Smith | A. Stoudemire	  286:41    +0.6
2	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | T. Hardaway | J. Smith	  195:17    -0.4
3	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | R. Felton | K. Martin | I. Shumpert	  145:51    +7.0
4	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | I. Shumpert | J. Smith	  141:24    +13.9
5	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | P. Prigioni | I. Shumpert  133:53    +14.6
6	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | R. Felton | I. Shumpert | J. Smith	  126:11    +10.8
7	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | T. Chandler | R. Felton | I. Shumpert   90:52    -23.7
8	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | P. Prigioni | J. Smith	   73:20    +13.2
9	C. Anthony | R. Felton | I. Shumpert | J. Smith | A. Stoudemire	   71:55    -0.3
10	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | K. Martin | I. Shumpert | B. Udrih	   66:33    -2.5
11	C. Anthony | R. Felton | T. Hardaway | J. Smith | A. Stoudemire	   60:43    -20.9
12	C. Anthony | T. Hardaway | P. Prigioni | J. Smith | A. Stoudemire  57:11    -16.0
13	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | T. Hardaway | P. Prigioni | J. Smith	   50:13    +12.1
14	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | T. Hardaway | P. Prigioni | I. Shumpert 48:39    +7.5
15	C. Anthony | T. Chandler | R. Felton | T. Hardaway | I. Shumpert   44:02    -6.7
16	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | P. Prigioni | J. Smith | A. Stoudemire  42:54    -45.8
17	T. Hardaway | K. Martin | T. Murry | J. Smith | A. Stoudemire	   42:43    -27.7
18	C. Aldrich | S. Brown | T. Hardaway | T. Murry | J. Tyler	   40:01    -30.5
19	C. Anthony | A. Bargnani | P. Prigioni | I. Shumpert | J. Smith	   38:41    -4.5
20	A. Bargnani | T. Chandler | T. Hardaway | J. Smith | B. Udrih	   37:27    -33.3

H1AND1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:When he was actually getting minutes Bargs was the 2nd best player on the team!!! People have seriously developed amnesia about last year. We didn't lose because of Bargnani. We lost cuz of Woody, JR, Felton sucking and Tyson breaking his leg etc. There were a myriad of reasons, but early in the year before Bargs lost his confidence and then got injured, he was avg'ing 16/6/1.3 blks on 47.4%, 81% FT and 37% from 3pt range. People just forget that he actually was doing that with Felton, Shump and JR stinking up the joint. IMO he most definitely can be a productive player. Coaching will make a huge difference and the presence of Jose will also help cuz they have chemistry.

where do you come up with these things?

What the F were you watching at the start of the year when Bargs was in FACT the 2nd best player on the team. Don't piss on my posts if you're not gonna back up what you say with SOMETHING. I hate that ISH.

Bargs:  32.7 mpg 47.4% FG  37.0% 3pt 81.1% FT 5.8 reb 1.3 blks 16.4 pts
Felton: 35.1 mpg 36.6% FG  23.7% 3pt 85.7% FT 2.8 reb 5.8 ast  9.9  pts
JR:     31.5 mpg 32.8$ FG  28.6% 3pt 59.1% FT 4.6 reb 1.9 ast  11.7 pts

The poor coaching and poor play of our guards sucked the life out of Bargs. All those losses broke team spirit. Before Bargs lost all his confidence and enthusiasm, he was doing OK. Woody didn't make sure to keep him a part of the action. Bargs is the kind of player that has to be involved. He'll drift if he's not getting touches. That's the beauty of the Triangle, the ball gets to touch everyones hands and they are all active and engaged on every play.

dude you need to chill out with that crap and relax. You want to hang your hat on a 13 game stretch like that's something to hold on to even though he still had a negative +/-. What about December and January when he was "getting minutes"? I guess those don't count. He started the season sucking then had a good 13 games so the other 27 games just do not count.

He the definition of a negative player but I know to you he is awesome.

Well if he can't base his perfomance during a 13 game stretch, how do you base it on a 27 game stretch, with so many other issues that the team had.

Are you saying Barg can never be good no matter who you put around him, or no matter what system he plays in?

Are you taking woodson system into consideration, the PG play, the passes he got, the timing of his shots?

Are you determining his success strickly of off stats, is that truly the way to judge a player.

Bargs has never put together a really great season in his entire career? Even when he was putting up 17-20 points a game he was doing so inefficiently and playing atrocious defense. Then, the past 3 or 4 seasons he's been atrocious.

Why should we think he is all of sudden going to play up to expectations now?

Name the best NBA coach Barg has played for? That answer would also lead to none of them have a head coaching job now. Now I'm not a big fan of Barg and yes he has his flaws. But if a coach allows Melo to ball hog, Jr. To run free, Tysons to play lazy, Barg to have a green light at the three, and Felton to think he can actually play then. All the bad play this year leads to the person the allows the circus to go on. If a player starts doing things outside of your offense and you allow it to continue than your battle is lost.

nixluva wrote:The real blessing of Phil coming here is that he is changing the culture. He said he would and we can already see that it's happening. The nonsense that went on in the past won't be tolerated anymore. He's putting in a team oriented system which so far already looks good with our kids. He's balancing the roster and he told all the players to come to camp in great shape. So far from what i've seen Shump, Melo and Bargs already look leaner. THJ got stronger. I think all of the signs are good so far.

Phil made a point of the fact that he has Jose and Prigs to run point and Bargs plays better with those PG's. Some don't want to accept that this can have an impact but IMO it clearly can have a real impact on a big man that needs his PG to be in sync with him. Nash/STAT, Stockton/Malone... It matters who is playing PG. This offense is perfect for Jose and Prigs in that they don't have to create as much. The offense puts these guys in spots they can thrive in. Jose and Prigs are great spot up shooters and great passing PG's in the 2 man game, which will happen in the Pinch Post plays in the Triangle.

I don't see Prig's staying. Can't teach old dogs new triangles.

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

nixluva wrote:The real blessing of Phil coming here is that he is changing the culture. He said he would and we can already see that it's happening. The nonsense that went on in the past won't be tolerated anymore. He's putting in a team oriented system which so far already looks good with our kids. He's balancing the roster and he told all the players to come to camp in great shape. So far from what i've seen Shump, Melo and Bargs already look leaner. THJ got stronger. I think all of the signs are good so far.

Phil made a point of the fact that he has Jose and Prigs to run point and Bargs plays better with those PG's. Some don't want to accept that this can have an impact but IMO it clearly can have a real impact on a big man that needs his PG to be in sync with him. Nash/STAT, Stockton/Malone... It matters who is playing PG. This offense is perfect for Jose and Prigs in that they don't have to create as much. The offense puts these guys in spots they can thrive in. Jose and Prigs are great spot up shooters and great passing PG's in the 2 man game, which will happen in the Pinch Post plays in the Triangle.

I don't see Prig's staying. Can't teach old dogs new triangles.

I don't care for priggs much anyway, thats not saying I don't appreciate what he does do good, I just dont like the fact that he doesn't shoot even has a 4th option.

As fas as implemented the triangle with him in the rotation, shouldn't be a problem at all, he's use to hitting cutters, screen and rolls, PnR's was he thing overseas.

NYKBocker wrote:

Nalod wrote:

nixluva wrote:The real blessing of Phil coming here is that he is changing the culture. He said he would and we can already see that it's happening. The nonsense that went on in the past won't be tolerated anymore. He's putting in a team oriented system which so far already looks good with our kids. He's balancing the roster and he told all the players to come to camp in great shape. So far from what i've seen Shump, Melo and Bargs already look leaner. THJ got stronger. I think all of the signs are good so far.

Phil made a point of the fact that he has Jose and Prigs to run point and Bargs plays better with those PG's. Some don't want to accept that this can have an impact but IMO it clearly can have a real impact on a big man that needs his PG to be in sync with him. Nash/STAT, Stockton/Malone... It matters who is playing PG. This offense is perfect for Jose and Prigs in that they don't have to create as much. The offense puts these guys in spots they can thrive in. Jose and Prigs are great spot up shooters and great passing PG's in the 2 man game, which will happen in the Pinch Post plays in the Triangle.

I don't see Prig's staying. Can't teach old dogs new triangles.

I kinda agree. I think Pablo is the odd man out in the PG position. You really don't have a triangle guard in the past that you can compare his skillset with. Larkin is like a much shorter BJ Armstrong. Calderon is in the Kerr/Paxson mold.

You guys are highly underestimating Prigs IMO. He's capable of doing much of what the Triangle PG is expected to do. I also think Larkin will get his chances this year to contribute. Phil obviously wants a change of pace PG like Larkin. Larkin was already a good PnR PG which is important in the Pinch Post part of the Triangle.

If it is passed to the weak-side guard it initiates the "pinch post" option. There are two options. The first and most common is to pass to the weak-side forward who flashes to the elbow (corner of the key at the free throw line) to receive the pass. When he does the options are a rub handoff, back door cut by guard without the ball, post up of the guard on a smaller player, or face up and attack. The second option is a pick and roll with the forward. The advantage to the first option is there are so many weapons to attack the defense it opens up a lot of freedom and ability to score effectively. The advantage on the second option is that the player who has the ball and uses the screen now has the entire side of the floor to work with to go one on one.

Here is a short video with some Pinch Post action:

Larkin's quickness can be an asset in the Pinch Post. Jose and Prigs can use the PnR or take the open jumper that is often created by the Pinch Post action. If you look at just about all of the PG options in the Triangle very little of it requires him to pound the ball and create on his own. PG gets hand offs, open shots from 3, PnR action and back cuts. This excellent video shows all the options.

knickscity wrote:I'd be surprised if Bargs can stay healthy this season.

WHY? He hasn't had any major Knee issues. Dude fell on his elbow trying a dumb long drive Dunk attempt and a player slid under him. Just so you know he was FOULED on that play. He was trying to make something happen. I don't think he's gonna have to take chances like that this year. He'll get more great looks closer to the basket.

In the Triangle he's not gonna be in that kind of position to come from so far to try a dunk attempt. This idea that he's got health issues is coincidental. I think STAT has legit health concerns, but Bargs hasn't had any knee issues. Phil has made it mandatory that everyone come to camp already in great shape and so far as I can see players are taking that seriously. People need to leave the Bargs stuff in the past. Let's see how he does in this new regime.

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:I'd be surprised if Bargs can stay healthy this season.

WHY? He hasn't had any major Knee issues. Dude fell on his elbow trying a dumb long drive Dunk attempt and a player slid under him. Just so you know he was FOULED on that play. He was trying to make something happen. I don't think he's gonna have to take chances like that this year. He'll get more great looks closer to the basket.

In the Triangle he's not gonna be in that kind of position to come from so far to try a dunk attempt. This idea that he's got health issues is coincidental. I think STAT has legit health concerns, but Bargs hasn't had any knee issues. Phil has made it mandatory that everyone come to camp already in great shape and so far as I can see players are taking that seriously. People need to leave the Bargs stuff in the past. Let's see how he does in this new regime.

Not sure why you're debating bargs staying healthy, he definitely hasn't been otherwise he wouldnt have missed so many games the past three seasons due to injuries.

Some guys are just injury prone, Bargs has proven to be one of them.

Speaking on Amare though, he's actually played MORE games and minutes than Bargs has in the past three years....bad knees and all.

BTW coming to camp in shape isnt the same as staying healthy. I havent question Bargs fitness level, merely durability.

2 of Bargs causes for missed games came on failed dunk attempts where he injured his arm and one time it was a strained calf. That's something he can avoid from now on. I don't really think it's the same thing as missing time for knee surgery or some other chronic and debilitating condition. Bargs is 28 and basically if he just plays his game and stays within himself I doubt he'll have any health issues. His being in great shape this summer could also be a huge plus cuz last summer he was very sick and out for a month which interrupted his chance to get any off season conditioning. If he is coming into this year in his best shape it could really be a game changer for him. I don't know that he's ever really taken his conditioning serious.

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:I'd be surprised if Bargs can stay healthy this season.

WHY? He hasn't had any major Knee issues. Dude fell on his elbow trying a dumb long drive Dunk attempt and a player slid under him. Just so you know he was FOULED on that play. He was trying to make something happen. I don't think he's gonna have to take chances like that this year. He'll get more great looks closer to the basket.

In the Triangle he's not gonna be in that kind of position to come from so far to try a dunk attempt. This idea that he's got health issues is coincidental. I think STAT has legit health concerns, but Bargs hasn't had any knee issues. Phil has made it mandatory that everyone come to camp already in great shape and so far as I can see players are taking that seriously. People need to leave the Bargs stuff in the past. Let's see how he does in this new regime.

Not sure why you're debating bargs staying healthy, he definitely hasn't been otherwise he wouldnt have missed so many games the past three seasons due to injuries.

Some guys are just injury prone, Bargs has proven to be one of them.

Speaking on Amare though, he's actually played MORE games and minutes than Bargs has in the past three years....bad knees and all.

BTW coming to camp in shape isnt the same as staying healthy. I havent question Bargs fitness level, merely durability.

2 of Bargs causes for missed games came on failed dunk attempts where he injured his arm and one time it was a strained calf. That's something he can avoid from now on. I don't really think it's the same thing as missing time for knee surgery or some other chronic and debilitating condition. Bargs is 28 and basically if he just plays his game and stays within himself I doubt he'll have any health issues. His being in great shape this summer could also be a huge plus cuz last summer he was very sick and out for a month which interrupted his chance to get any off season conditioning. If he is coming into this year in his best shape it could really be a game changer for him. I don't know that he's ever really taken his conditioning serious.

I dont recall Bargs having conditioning issues at any point of his career outside of last season, but I could be mistaken.

But his ability to be a healthy player is my concern and is a legit one....

Just speaking on his elbow....

Bargnani: “I’m very upset that it’s something very bad again (Bargnani missed most of the 2011-12 season due to injuries), kind of depressed,” Bargnani said before lightening up a bit.

“It was a bad fall, could have been worse, could have broke some of my bones, my wrist, so I got lucky in certain ways, but it’s really bad. Bad moment, bad timing, everything.”

Casey said he would talk to Bargnani to make sure he isn’t actually depressed.

“Down is OK, but depressed is pretty strong,” Casey said.

http://sports-kings.com/passthepill/andrea-bargnani-depressed-by-raptors-woes/

The injury that bargs is admitting he was depressed from irnoically is the same type of injury he suffered with us and the playbook certainly did not contribute to it.

here's another.....

if anything, worse – the shots weren’t falling, the energy was non-existent, and the effort level was abysmal. Than came injury, sustaining a ligament tear in his elbow, where he was sitting in his Italian leather until February, where he made a return off the bench against the Boston Celtics. A couple days later, Bargnani would not play a handful of games due to flu-like symptoms, where he once again returned, but not for very long. Andrea would leave in the first half in a game against the Los Angeles Lakers, where he would re-aggravate his elbow, thus resulting in being shut down for the rest of the season.

http://www.raptorscage.ca/what-happened-this-season-toronto-raptors/

This past season was almost a remix of sorts with Bargnani when it comes to his ability to stay healthy.

But even with that, the guy who actually has a major health issue has played more games in this same span.

The key is what they do, not what can prevent them.

Amare being the healthier player of the two during the past three years is actually ridiculous......but he has been, and likely weill continue this year as well.

You're still not really saying anything except that in the past he got hurt and missed games. It does matter what the nature of the injury was. He didn't have season ending knee surgery. He doesn't have any chronic injury that we can predict will cause him to be at risk in playing this year. IN the end that's my only point. He's, from what i've seen, in better shape. If he has taken Phil's admonition seriously and has gotten into top shape, WHICH HE WAS NOT last summer due to his illness, then he should be fine health wise cuz there's nothing chronically wrong with him.

You can't say definitively that Bargnani is gonna have another collision injury being undercut on dunks just like he had cuz there's no way to predict that. I think this year will see him refine his game so that he's not doing things he shouldn't be doing. Phil and Fish will get his game right and put him in spots to be productive. That's what Phil does. It's not me just guessing. This is his history as a coach and leader. More importantly this is a contract year for Bargs. What usually happens in players contract year is a strong commitment to having a strong season. I would expect Bargs to do the same as just about every NBA player in the same circumstance.

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:I'd be surprised if Bargs can stay healthy this season.

WHY? He hasn't had any major Knee issues. Dude fell on his elbow trying a dumb long drive Dunk attempt and a player slid under him. Just so you know he was FOULED on that play. He was trying to make something happen. I don't think he's gonna have to take chances like that this year. He'll get more great looks closer to the basket.

In the Triangle he's not gonna be in that kind of position to come from so far to try a dunk attempt. This idea that he's got health issues is coincidental. I think STAT has legit health concerns, but Bargs hasn't had any knee issues. Phil has made it mandatory that everyone come to camp already in great shape and so far as I can see players are taking that seriously. People need to leave the Bargs stuff in the past. Let's see how he does in this new regime.

Not sure why you're debating bargs staying healthy, he definitely hasn't been otherwise he wouldnt have missed so many games the past three seasons due to injuries.

Some guys are just injury prone, Bargs has proven to be one of them.

Speaking on Amare though, he's actually played MORE games and minutes than Bargs has in the past three years....bad knees and all.

BTW coming to camp in shape isnt the same as staying healthy. I havent question Bargs fitness level, merely durability.

2 of Bargs causes for missed games came on failed dunk attempts where he injured his arm and one time it was a strained calf. That's something he can avoid from now on. I don't really think it's the same thing as missing time for knee surgery or some other chronic and debilitating condition. Bargs is 28 and basically if he just plays his game and stays within himself I doubt he'll have any health issues. His being in great shape this summer could also be a huge plus cuz last summer he was very sick and out for a month which interrupted his chance to get any off season conditioning. If he is coming into this year in his best shape it could really be a game changer for him. I don't know that he's ever really taken his conditioning serious.

I dont recall Bargs having conditioning issues at any point of his career outside of last season, but I could be mistaken.

But his ability to be a healthy player is my concern and is a legit one....

Just speaking on his elbow....

Bargnani: “I’m very upset that it’s something very bad again (Bargnani missed most of the 2011-12 season due to injuries), kind of depressed,” Bargnani said before lightening up a bit.

“It was a bad fall, could have been worse, could have broke some of my bones, my wrist, so I got lucky in certain ways, but it’s really bad. Bad moment, bad timing, everything.”

Casey said he would talk to Bargnani to make sure he isn’t actually depressed.

“Down is OK, but depressed is pretty strong,” Casey said.

http://sports-kings.com/passthepill/andrea-bargnani-depressed-by-raptors-woes/

The injury that bargs is admitting he was depressed from irnoically is the same type of injury he suffered with us and the playbook certainly did not contribute to it.

here's another.....

if anything, worse – the shots weren’t falling, the energy was non-existent, and the effort level was abysmal. Than came injury, sustaining a ligament tear in his elbow, where he was sitting in his Italian leather until February, where he made a return off the bench against the Boston Celtics. A couple days later, Bargnani would not play a handful of games due to flu-like symptoms, where he once again returned, but not for very long. Andrea would leave in the first half in a game against the Los Angeles Lakers, where he would re-aggravate his elbow, thus resulting in being shut down for the rest of the season.

http://www.raptorscage.ca/what-happened-this-season-toronto-raptors/

This past season was almost a remix of sorts with Bargnani when it comes to his ability to stay healthy.

But even with that, the guy who actually has a major health issue has played more games in this same span.

The key is what they do, not what can prevent them.

Amare being the healthier player of the two during the past three years is actually ridiculous......but he has been, and likely weill continue this year as well.

You're still not really saying anything except that in the past he got hurt and missed games. It does matter what the nature of the injury was. He didn't have season ending knee surgery. He doesn't have any chronic injury that we can predict will cause him to be at risk in playing this year. IN the end that's my only point. He's, from what i've seen, in better shape. If he has taken Phil's admonition seriously and has gotten into top shape, WHICH HE WAS NOT last summer due to his illness, then he should be fine health wise cuz there's nothing chronically wrong with him.

You can't say definitively that Bargnani is gonna have another collision injury being undercut on dunks just like he had cuz there's no way to predict that. I think this year will see him refine his game so that he's not doing things he shouldn't be doing. Phil and Fish will get his game right and put him in spots to be productive. That's what Phil does. It's not me just guessing. This is his history as a coach and leader. More importantly this is a contract year for Bargs. What usually happens in players contract year is a strong commitment to having a strong season. I would expect Bargs to do the same as just about every NBA player in the same circumstance.

I have no issue with your optimism, i just dont share it. Bargs has history that Phil hasnt had to deal with. he doesnt make no so good player better, what he does is elevate guys who already are good, which Bargs is not.

Thats Phil's "history".

As far as contract year things go, there's quite a few on the team that fall in that category, so that isnt a for sure thing that bargs in particular will automatically play better.

The system still will be adhered to, bargs if he is even still on the team by then will need to blend.

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:I have no doubt Phil and Fisher will give him every chance to play well, but only Bargs can make the ball go in the hoop. Only bargs can stay healthy as well.

I have no issue with your optimism, i just dont share it. Bargs has history that Phil hasnt had to deal with. he doesnt make no so good player better, what he does is elevate guys who already are good, which Bargs is not.

Thats Phil's "history".

As far as contract year things go, there's quite a few on the team that fall in that category, so that isnt a for sure thing that bargs in particular will automatically play better.

The system still will be adhered to, bargs if he is even still on the team by then will need to blend.

I can't believe I have to keep reading such Bullish. You think that Phil can't put Bargs in a position to succeed? It's already clear that Woody did not put Bargs in a position to succeed and it made things worse than they had to be. If you as a coach fail to play your players to their strengths but instead put them in positions that highlight their weaknesses then you're ensuring that they'll fail. It's always important that a player does his best but you also have to create the environment for players to succeed. That is what Phil has done. He doesn't just "elevate guys who already are good". That's a diss to Phil's coaching if you think that's all he does.

All the statistics show that Bargs is an excellent Pick n Pop player and if you get him in that kind of action more often he'll be playing to his strengths. The more he touches the ball the better he plays.

With about six minutes left in the fourth quarter of their game Wednesday against the Denver Nuggets, the Toronto Raptors found themselves trailing by 1 point. Coming off a possession that started with an offensive rebound, the Raptors pulled the basketball out and ran a pick-and-roll between Jose Calderon and Andrea Bargnani. It worked so well that they went back to it, then they went back to it again.

In total, the Raptors used Bargnani as the roll man in the pick-and-roll three times during a two-minute stretch, scoring seven points off of it (good for a PPP of 2.33), and turning a 1-point deficit into a four-point lead. What’s really interesting about these pick-and-rolls is that they not only got into them three different ways, but Bargnani scored out of them three different ways, showing off his versatility when put in pick-and-rolls.

PPP in Pick and Pop 2012
Andrea Bargnani 
1. Bargnani 1.022 
2. Duncan 1.007 
3. K. Love 1.000 
4. Garnett .979 
5. Aldridge .969 
6. M. Gasol .947 
7. Jason Smith .931 
8. D. West .931 
9. Gooden .927 
10. D. Lee .909 

Interesting name shows up in this list. Jason Smith is there. This is part of the rationale behind Phil adding him. It's also why I think Phil is confident that he can get something out of Bargs. The skills they have are useful in the Triangle.

But they arent magicians, players have to be good already. bargs has certain aspects that can be used, but his negatives totally eclipse that.