We sure as hell won't be drafting one while this is melo's team as the big kahuna

gunsnewing wrote:Jordan couldn't advance either in the playoffs when he did get there. Are we going to hold that against him too? arguably the greatest of all time. Why are people being so hard on KG? Another all time great. Multi-faceted game changer. Like I said even the best players need help. In Melos case he needs a lot of help or a Batman to his Robin. It ain't that complicated

We have one. Need another. Amare isnt it. Chandler isnt it. Lets get another. I agree... it aint that complicated. The time to rebuild is after Melo's next contract, not after this one. As bad as this team played Im quite sure he can sustain a high level of play for the next 3-4 years. Bottom line is his legs are still springy after all the mileage. He needs a stud guard. Is it Rondo next year? I dont know... but I agree! Its not that complicated..

gunsnewing wrote:The complicated part is building a core that fits.

And in my opinion building through the draft is a necessity. Name a team in any sport that won it all with only FA signings? Can't think of one. Yankees, giants, lakers, spurs, heat etc

Dolan has gone the exact opposite route with starphuching everything. It hasn't worked for his 16yrs as owner. Time to do it the right way. I'm am praying and hopeful that Phil does just that

Chances of developing our own stars are slim with Melo as the big kahuna

That's what next season should be about, assembing complimentary pieces, players Jackson believe have the skills and the right attitude to get the job done. Cant wait till 2015 to do it all at once.

gunsnewing wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:A lot of factors:
Melo better supporting cast
Karl better coach than Saunders etc

We saw what KG(all time great, offense, defense and leadership, kills you in multiple ways) did when he finally had spree cassel and Wally. Unfortunately they weren't good enough a supporting cast to compete with Duncan Shaq and Kobe

Take KG's supporting cast up a level(pierce Allen rondo) and he wins a ring. It's not that hard

Do you see Melo winning a ring as the Big Kahuna is the question?

Or as a robin to a batman?

I go with the latter.

Melo @ $25-30mil pretty much guarantees that it continues to be all about Melo

Which again is good enough if the goal is to make the playoffs

This really isn't that hard goddammit!!!

when KG joined that team was he the big Kahuna? Pretty sure led the team with 9ish boards and thats about it. Yup.. he was 3rd in minutes, 2nd in scoring. Thats the big Kahuna? Seems to me he came in and played exactly the Robin role your talking about. Let other guys do their thing. Was that even KG's team? Seems like Pierce was the finisher there anyway.

So what have we learned?

Same point in their careers: KG, a coveted player around these parts was a bigger loser than Melo at same point in their careers. KG comes to Boston, plays 2nd fiddle to other players and wins one title, instantly becomes the player that MElo never could after the age of 30. OK... got it.

His game was declining into his 30s. Much like Melo soon will. Both guys came into the league in their teens and have logged a ton of minutes by the age of 30

Difference is KG is still effective going to 2 finals and toe to toe with Miami in recent years because he effects the game in a number of different ways. Passing scoring defense and leadership. What's melo's defense going to look like in 2-4yrs?

Look... I dont hold Melo on a pedestal, but he's a top 10 player. Holes in his game? Hell yes... but Ive seen enough to believe he's got every bit the champion in him that a guy like Pierce or even Dirk (remember they called in Irk???). The pieces he needs around him are easier to get then Melo himself.

Guys need help! Chris Paul is sick... he's easily a top 10 player, prob top 5 and he's got Blake and Jordan up front and cant make it out of the 2nd round, and I think he's only been there once. It takes alot!

I would hope the plan with Phil would be to resign Melo and built not a team around him, but a team. Thats why Phil is here. In 4 years when Melo is 34 (or 34.5 for DK) if we are an old team of aging vets like Boston was last offseason I am ALL FOR blowing it up. Not when you have a guy playing at Melo's level right now. Need to try to build this thing up and especially need to start improving from within. Fix PG, and let the rest of the guys back. They all expire. Lets see where we stand. We have what? One first rounder in the next 3 years? Now isnt the time to rebuild. It just doesnt make sense.

Bad example even Atlanta drafts talent but no winning culture established. I strive to be like Miami, spurs, Indy and okc. Dolan has done the exact opposite as those teamS

gunsnewing wrote:I'm ok with keeping Melo if we somehow surround him with championship level talent. Not just enough talent to make the playoffs like Melos nuggets and KG's wolves. Unless Lebron or Durant come here where are we finding these guys? Kevin Love is putting us over the top? I rather trade Melo for picks and draft the next true Kahuna. In the meantime be subjected to good basketball and a winning culture. Much better than becoming the Atlanta Hawks.

Bad example even Atlanta drafts talent but no winning culture established. I strive to be like Miami, spurs, Indy and okc. Dolan has done the exact opposite as those teamS

There is a lot of dysfunction to fix and improvement from within, and much of it can come from fixing one position: PG. I think we see Lowry here.

He is getting older. Will probably need shoulder surgery and god forbid his knees go aka H20 & mcdyess from over usuage. Had he been entering his prime years 25-28 than you build around him. At 30+ injuries will be an issue and his motor will slow down. Especially considering his defensive motor and footwork was never there to begin with. He plays defense with his hands not feet

Or somehow get Lebron or Durant

gunsnewing wrote:I want draft picks and sign guys who are in their prime like Jordan Kobe Shaq & Duncan. Drafted or signed in their prime years

Or somehow get Lebron or Durant

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Jordan couldn't advance either in the playoffs when he did get there. Are we going to hold that against him too? arguably the greatest of all time. Why are people being so hard on KG? Another all time great. Multi-faceted game changer. Like I said even the best players need help. In Melos case he needs a lot of help or a Batman to his Robin. It ain't that complicated

I agree. So why are folks so desperate to get rid of him rather then get help? I mean look around... the elite teams all have 2+ stars

We have one. Need another. Amare isnt it. Chandler isnt it. Lets get another. I agree... it aint that complicated. The time to rebuild is after Melo's next contract, not after this one. As bad as this team played Im quite sure he can sustain a high level of play for the next 3-4 years. Bottom line is his legs are still springy after all the mileage. He needs a stud guard. Is it Rondo next year? I dont know... but I agree! Its not that complicated..

the elite teams have good all around talent, and their best player is usually a good leader and solid all around player.. carmelo is neither... I mean do you really think it makes sense comparing carmelo's situation to Jordan, or Garnett, or Dirk... you first have to start with this fish... all of those guys are miles ahead of carmelo.. they are so much better.. building teams around players who can lead and who are complete is a lot different than building around such a flawed player...

Your problem is that you overvalue carmelo.. why? who knows... having one flat tire and adding 3 good ones around it won't make the car ride any better...

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:Melo is not the real problem despite his desire to go ISO, which wouldn't be the end of the world if we had a team around him and an offense that involves some off ball motion. This is the change the Knicks need most. In the NBA the difference between teams is not that great. Aside from needing a Top Tier player you also need a roster that makes sense and has the needed balance and scheme to enhance the overall team play. You could take the same roster and put in a better scheme and this team would win a lot more games. Now if you also improve the team with the right player or two then we'd be talking about a contender.

We will get a chance to see this roster with better coaching, scheme and perhaps a glue type player or 2 that can make it all work at a higher level. Better understanding of how to play the game on a higher level is going to be key and that is what Phil is going to be looking to do. Better fundamentals and overall scheme will make a HUGE difference. Just watching this team there were so many times where this team lost simply due to a lack of fundamentals and a sound BB scheme. Poor coaching and on the floor decision making was often the real detriment as opposed to needing more talent. Of course we want to improve the talent but you also have to improve the base level of BB acumen and IQ. We've been playing dumb BB and selfish BB that doesn't maximize the talent we have already.

his arrival here in the first place made the roster make no sense. they gutted the team and could not figure it out. the team has been in chaos and disarray thanks to the melo trade. "surrounding" such a flawed-- and redundant player-- was a non-starter. we should have stood pat in 2010-2011 and gotten an upgrade at point guard. tha was surely walsh's plan, since he had felton on a cheap two-year audition deal. we would have been in much better shape than we are now, waiting for some cooky draft night trades and then 2015 free agency.

It's really hard to put a team together that can win a title without one of the top players in the league and a scheme that maximizes the role players on your team. We already have Melo who I believe is talented enough to help a team win in the post season, but the big IF is having the right coach and leadership, the right balance of players that make sense together. We need a cultural shift to TEAM WORK as opposed to what we've had. IMO getting rid of Melo doesn't really solve any of the teams pressing issues. If only creates a major one. Who exactly do you replace him with that has the talent to take over when a team of role players needs that star player? It's not like they grow those players on trees.

I'd take my chances with Melo and Phil rather than just hoping we can eventually find a lead player and put a team around him. IMO if we had replaced Felton with a more capable player that would do more than getting rid of Melo. Just think about how Kidd was able to help this team despite losing most of his physical skills. He did it with his mind more than anything else. We need a younger Ball mover who can lead the team on the floor. We need the kind of scheme that Phil is espousing that is based on Team Ball.

Papabear Says

Good Post. Makes a lot of since.