fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I don't think Melo will ever be able to lift his teammates the way Lebron and Durant do. He's more Marbury in that sense. He needs ready made talent. Cross your fingers and hope we don't screw up this time

not Lebron. Cmon... he's the best player in the NBA. I dont preted Melo is as good as KD or LBJ, not for a second. But he's good enough to go fight them, and he's good enough to beat them. Yes.. he will need help, but he's shown he can compete at that level.

I dont worry too much of Melo's drop because he hasnt shown any yet, and his shooting has really improved. He's like 40%+ from downtown. Not sure thats a sustainable trend but it has been this year.

but fish the type of help and the level of help carmelo needs, dictates he should not be a max player then. the kind of guys he needs if the knicks had them would not need to pay carmelo 30 mil, they could then go out and get a player like deng, a more complete player like him, pay him less and yield similar if not better results.. and I am betting on better results..

But he's good enough to go fight them, and he's good enough to beat them.

you see fish you can't say, tell me a team the nuggets should have beat in the west when he was a nugget and then say he is good enough to beat the likes of lebron.. because if carmelo is as good as you say at some point he should have beaten kobe, or duncan, or even deron williams..or elton Brand... they lost to the clippers bro.. At some point don't you think that a great player would have been able to advance. .I mean he did have some good players around him, its not like the clippers, and jazz were world beaters..

either you are or you aren't..Durant beat duncan, he beat dirk, he lost to dirk, the lakers beat boston, boston beat LA.. Great players tend to beat one another.. unless your name is MJ.. but at some point you have to define your self, your career with winning.. enough with the excuses.. and winning I don't necessarily mean winning a ring which is GREAT, but hard.. I mean advancing in the playoffs consistently, a finals appearance, a few confrence finals...

carmelo lacks in that area greatly and all I keep hearing is that it is someone else fault..

fishmike wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I don't think Melo will ever be able to lift his teammates the way Lebron and Durant do. He's more Marbury in that sense. He needs ready made talent. Cross your fingers and hope we don't screw up this time

not Lebron. Cmon... he's the best player in the NBA. I dont preted Melo is as good as KD or LBJ, not for a second. But he's good enough to go fight them, and he's good enough to beat them. Yes.. he will need help, but he's shown he can compete at that level.

I dont worry too much of Melo's drop because he hasnt shown any yet, and his shooting has really improved. He's like 40%+ from downtown. Not sure thats a sustainable trend but it has been this year.

but fish the type of help and the level of help carmelo needs, dictates he should not be a max player then. the kind of guys he needs if the knicks had them would not need to pay carmelo 30 mil, they could then go out and get a player like deng, a more complete player like him, pay him less and yield similar if not better results.. and I am betting on better results..

But he's good enough to go fight them, and he's good enough to beat them.

what does that mean? good enough to fight them? so are a lot of guys.. good enough to beat them? well that hasn't happened...

you see fish you can't say, tell me a team the nuggets should have beat in the west when he was a nugget and then say he is good enough to beat the likes of lebron.. because if carmelo is as good as you say at some point he should have beaten kobe, or duncan, or even deron williams..or elton Brand... they lost to the clippers bro.. At some point don't you think that a great player would have been able to advance. .I mean he did have some good players around him, its not like the clippers, and jazz were world beaters..

either you are or you aren't..Durant beat duncan, he beat dirk, he lost to dirk, the lakers beat boston, boston beat LA.. Great players tend to beat one another.. unless your name is MJ.. but at some point you have to define your self, your career with winning.. enough with the excuses.. and winning I don't necessarily mean winning a ring which is GREAT, but hard.. I mean advancing in the playoffs consistently, a finals appearance, a few confrence finals...

carmelo lacks in that area greatly and all I keep hearing is that it is someone else fault..

yes.. and Dirk lost in the first round and had other defeats where his team was the favorite. Melo's playoff teams have never been the favorite, except last year and they won that series.

What are the excuses dude? Im not making any. Im saying to win BIG you need multiple guys. MJ, Duncan, Lebron... all those guys you mention are probably better than Melo, thats a debate. Whats NOT a debate is the quality of talent they had to work with that Melo has not.

Ill ask you again... Im making excuses? Fine. Dispell them. Who are the great players Melo has played with? Who are the other stars? MJ-> Scotty. Shaq->Kobe. Duncan-> Robinson/Parker/Manu. Lebron->Wade/Bosh.

Go tell me the guys. On one hand you say Melo needs to stand up and take control of his winning. Lebron did that... by joining two other max guys. Durant didnt make the conf finals with Westbrook on the bench did he? How far did the Celtics with Rondo then how did they do after he tore his ACL?

We could do this all day.

TFK your posting and your points are crap, and I will tell you why. When your arguements fall short you always revert to the same thing... Melo lacks this or Melo isnt that "type" of guy.

What have we seen here with the Knicks? What happens? Does Melo suck in the playoffs? Does he fail? What happened last year? I know you hate Melo, so I wont ask you what you thought about his postseason, but how did Kidd play? How did JR play? How did Chandler play? Is it Melo's fault those three GROSSLY underperformed in the post season? Is that another Melo playoff failure? Im sure you think it is...

You actually prefer Marbury. Yes... you said it. We are supposed to listen to you talk about Melo after that comment? Its a joke.

NO FISH, actually what is crap is your defense, when you meet oposition you start tossing shyt around like some upset caged animal...

I made it clear.. carmelo is not on the level of lebron or mj or durant or bird or dirk... and all of those guys to some extent have had success even with lesser talent...so I am asking you, why is it that guys like paul george, joakim noah can still lead winning teams, even under the worst set of circumstances.. remember both guys played for team that lost it best player.. at one time...carmelo has a history of losing in the playoffs fish and I mean this is what we are talking about..

so I am reverting to melo isn't that "type" of guy because you keep saying he is.. and you are producing nothing to back it up, but say that guys who were much better than him had help.. what kind of argument is that? because I will simply point out lebron who had a cavs team with little talent and they went to the finals?

who was dirk's running mate when he won the finals, beating lebron and wade? see where your argument falls short?

yes.. and Dirk lost in the first round and had other defeats where his team was the favorite. Melo's playoff teams have never been the favorite, except last year and they won that series.

ok, so lets do this fish... since you are dancing.. lets discount where these guys have fallen short and lets highlight what they have done.. Dirk lost in the first round.. Ok.. dirk also been to 2 finals. and has one ring..

Carmelo? I will let you fill that one in__________________________________________________

Who are the great players Melo has played with? Who are the other stars? MJ-> Scotty. Shaq->Kobe. Duncan-> Robinson/Parker/Manu. Lebron->

I mentioned, Billups who was a champion and finals MVP... Iverson, DPOY in camby and chandler who just came off a championship... kenyon martin.. 6th man of the year.. what else are you asking for fish? if you want him to play with a lebron or kobe, then I say fine.. give me lebron.. we don't need carmelo we can win with luol deng in his place.... stop bringing up lebron and MJ and Duncan, those guys are on another level than carmelo.. if you are going to invite them into this argument then don't use the defense that those guys are better than carmelo which is why they have succeeded.. since you already conceded that they are better than carmelo, no need to keep mentioning they had help... can't have it both ways fish..

as Dk said, this is beginning to get over your head bro... no offense..

i want to end with this... you keep pumping up the 54 win team from last year, ok, lets say that was a good team... carmelo said that was the best and most talent he has played with.. HE said that.. yet they lost to the pacers in 6 games. a team that supposedly didn't have a superstar or Allstar on that team... So i ask the knicks had the so called "superstar" they had the defending DPOY in chandler, 6th man of the year in JR smith, veterans and HOME court advantage... No excuses.. why were they thoroughly outplayed by a so called.. "lesser" team? how did carmelo winning the scoring title by the slimmest of margins, or him beasting towards the end of the year... help the knicks vs Paul george and the pacers?

at some point stats become empty without results..

fishmike wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I don't think Melo will ever be able to lift his teammates the way Lebron and Durant do. He's more Marbury in that sense. He needs ready made talent. Cross your fingers and hope we don't screw up this time

not Lebron. Cmon... he's the best player in the NBA. I dont preted Melo is as good as KD or LBJ, not for a second. But he's good enough to go fight them, and he's good enough to beat them. Yes.. he will need help, but he's shown he can compete at that level.

I dont worry too much of Melo's drop because he hasnt shown any yet, and his shooting has really improved. He's like 40%+ from downtown. Not sure thats a sustainable trend but it has been this year.

but fish the type of help and the level of help carmelo needs, dictates he should not be a max player then. the kind of guys he needs if the knicks had them would not need to pay carmelo 30 mil, they could then go out and get a player like deng, a more complete player like him, pay him less and yield similar if not better results.. and I am betting on better results..

But he's good enough to go fight them, and he's good enough to beat them.

what does that mean? good enough to fight them? so are a lot of guys.. good enough to beat them? well that hasn't happened...

you see fish you can't say, tell me a team the nuggets should have beat in the west when he was a nugget and then say he is good enough to beat the likes of lebron.. because if carmelo is as good as you say at some point he should have beaten kobe, or duncan, or even deron williams..or elton Brand... they lost to the clippers bro.. At some point don't you think that a great player would have been able to advance. .I mean he did have some good players around him, its not like the clippers, and jazz were world beaters..

either you are or you aren't..Durant beat duncan, he beat dirk, he lost to dirk, the lakers beat boston, boston beat LA.. Great players tend to beat one another.. unless your name is MJ.. but at some point you have to define your self, your career with winning.. enough with the excuses.. and winning I don't necessarily mean winning a ring which is GREAT, but hard.. I mean advancing in the playoffs consistently, a finals appearance, a few confrence finals...

carmelo lacks in that area greatly and all I keep hearing is that it is someone else fault..

yes.. and Dirk lost in the first round and had other defeats where his team was the favorite. Melo's playoff teams have never been the favorite, except last year and they won that series.

What are the excuses dude? Im not making any. Im saying to win BIG you need multiple guys. MJ, Duncan, Lebron... all those guys you mention are probably better than Melo, thats a debate. Whats NOT a debate is the quality of talent they had to work with that Melo has not.

Ill ask you again... Im making excuses? Fine. Dispell them. Who are the great players Melo has played with? Who are the other stars? MJ-> Scotty. Shaq->Kobe. Duncan-> Robinson/Parker/Manu. Lebron->Wade/Bosh.

Go tell me the guys. On one hand you say Melo needs to stand up and take control of his winning. Lebron did that... by joining two other max guys. Durant didnt make the conf finals with Westbrook on the bench did he? How far did the Celtics with Rondo then how did they do after he tore his ACL?

We could do this all day.

TFK your posting and your points are crap, and I will tell you why. When your arguements fall short you always revert to the same thing... Melo lacks this or Melo isnt that "type" of guy.

What have we seen here with the Knicks? What happens? Does Melo suck in the playoffs? Does he fail? What happened last year? I know you hate Melo, so I wont ask you what you thought about his postseason, but how did Kidd play? How did JR play? How did Chandler play? Is it Melo's fault those three GROSSLY underperformed in the post season? Is that another Melo playoff failure? Im sure you think it is...

You actually prefer Marbury. Yes... you said it. We are supposed to listen to you talk about Melo after that comment? Its a joke.

so to review:

it's melo's fault that he is in this situation here in new york. he is not an innocent victim.

it doesn't matter who he plays with-- his style of play drags down others and his teams underachieve.

even as he has underachieved his entire career and has not elevated his game to that of a champion, yet he is paid like a champion and traded for like a champion.

if he was fully aware of his profound limitations he would have not forced a trade.

as dirty harry says: "a man's got to know his limitations."

holfresh wrote:Stop it..Melo is balling, period...Ray Charles can see that...28 and 9...Shaq the last to do it...As for the trade, JR replaced Gallo's production..Numbers don't lie...

28 and 9 on a 21-36 team is the definition of empty stats in a vacuum. it's still a team game. is he making others better? nope. never has never will.

your numbers lie champ.

TeamBall wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:I don't think Melo will ever be able to lift his teammates the way Lebron and Durant do. He's more Marbury in that sense. He needs ready made talent. Cross your fingers and hope we don't screw up this time

not Lebron. Cmon... he's the best player in the NBA. I dont preted Melo is as good as KD or LBJ, not for a second. But he's good enough to go fight them, and he's good enough to beat them. Yes.. he will need help, but he's shown he can compete at that level.

I dont worry too much of Melo's drop because he hasnt shown any yet, and his shooting has really improved. He's like 40%+ from downtown. Not sure thats a sustainable trend but it has been this year.

but fish the type of help and the level of help carmelo needs, dictates he should not be a max player then. the kind of guys he needs if the knicks had them would not need to pay carmelo 30 mil, they could then go out and get a player like deng, a more complete player like him, pay him less and yield similar if not better results.. and I am betting on better results..

But he's good enough to go fight them, and he's good enough to beat them.

what does that mean? good enough to fight them? so are a lot of guys.. good enough to beat them? well that hasn't happened...

you see fish you can't say, tell me a team the nuggets should have beat in the west when he was a nugget and then say he is good enough to beat the likes of lebron.. because if carmelo is as good as you say at some point he should have beaten kobe, or duncan, or even deron williams..or elton Brand... they lost to the clippers bro.. At some point don't you think that a great player would have been able to advance. .I mean he did have some good players around him, its not like the clippers, and jazz were world beaters..

either you are or you aren't..Durant beat duncan, he beat dirk, he lost to dirk, the lakers beat boston, boston beat LA.. Great players tend to beat one another.. unless your name is MJ.. but at some point you have to define your self, your career with winning.. enough with the excuses.. and winning I don't necessarily mean winning a ring which is GREAT, but hard.. I mean advancing in the playoffs consistently, a finals appearance, a few confrence finals...

carmelo lacks in that area greatly and all I keep hearing is that it is someone else fault..

yes.. and Dirk lost in the first round and had other defeats where his team was the favorite. Melo's playoff teams have never been the favorite, except last year and they won that series.

What are the excuses dude? Im not making any. Im saying to win BIG you need multiple guys. MJ, Duncan, Lebron... all those guys you mention are probably better than Melo, thats a debate. Whats NOT a debate is the quality of talent they had to work with that Melo has not.

Ill ask you again... Im making excuses? Fine. Dispell them. Who are the great players Melo has played with? Who are the other stars? MJ-> Scotty. Shaq->Kobe. Duncan-> Robinson/Parker/Manu. Lebron->Wade/Bosh.

Go tell me the guys. On one hand you say Melo needs to stand up and take control of his winning. Lebron did that... by joining two other max guys. Durant didnt make the conf finals with Westbrook on the bench did he? How far did the Celtics with Rondo then how did they do after he tore his ACL?

We could do this all day.

TFK your posting and your points are crap, and I will tell you why. When your arguements fall short you always revert to the same thing... Melo lacks this or Melo isnt that "type" of guy.

What have we seen here with the Knicks? What happens? Does Melo suck in the playoffs? Does he fail? What happened last year? I know you hate Melo, so I wont ask you what you thought about his postseason, but how did Kidd play? How did JR play? How did Chandler play? Is it Melo's fault those three GROSSLY underperformed in the post season? Is that another Melo playoff failure? Im sure you think it is...

You actually prefer Marbury. Yes... you said it. We are supposed to listen to you talk about Melo after that comment? Its a joke.

so to review:

it's melo's fault that he is in this situation here in new york. he is not an innocent victim.

it doesn't matter who he plays with-- his style of play drags down others and his teams underachieve.

even as he has underachieved his entire career and has not elevated his game to that of a champion, yet he is paid like a champion and traded for like a champion.

if he was fully aware of his profound limitations he would have not forced a trade.

as dirty harry says: "a man's got to know his limitations."

You've said before that the Knicks overachieved last year though

if i did then it was completely attributable to kidd for the first 20-25 games, with an assist from rasheed wallace-- two champions and leaders. when kidd ran out of gas the team was basically a .500 team from there on out. whatever hot streak occurred later was due to woodson waking up and allowing another champion, prigioni, to facilitate the offense.

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:also to say Melo does not play defense is dishonest. Is he always playing 100%, no, and no one is. I don't have a synergy account but someone posted his a while ago and through 43 games opponents fg% was 38% and was top 6 in the league in isolations. If I believe Woody was an advance stat guy I would say that's why Melo was guarding Dirk but He just put him on Dirk or Melo asked to guard him. Would I like Melo to play elite defense more consistently, yes.

Fine - that opens a legitimate basketball discussion, but all these guys do is call him a stupid obsessed hater.

well when you ignore his defensive abilities and continue to say he plays no defense despite him doing so is strange. It is also strange to say I haven't watch the game but I bet Melo's man went off is weird.

It is also weird to call someone lazy because they are of Puerto Rican decent That's not basketball related. Something is wrong when a persons go there, imo.

Also, I agree with there should not be any name calling for poster or player.

first of all you are "mis-remembering." i said nothing about carmelo anthony that is not backed up by a reasonable amount of scientific studies about ethnicity, diet, obesity, stress.

that he is lazy is an entirely different assertion, having nothing to do with his ethnicity.

so please don't conflate weight issues on the one hand with laziness on the other. one has to do with genetics and lifestyle and the other has to do with character.

bloomberg has done studies, as have others, about the epidemic levels of disease related to diet and lifestyle. for example, a little googling gets you this from the american diabetes association: "The impact of diabetes hits Hispanic, Latino and African American New Yorkers even harder. Almost 28% of Latinos and Hispanics in the New York City market, and 31% of African American New Yorkers, have diabetes. In New York City during 2007, 22 African Americans and 23 Hispanics or Latinos of every 100,000 died from diabetes."

i am not the sort to make outrageous statements based solely on personal experience. but growing up in new york city and playing ball against the full spectrum of new yorkers i reserve the right to say what my personal experience is.

i sincerely hope this clears things up for you.

i think i know the one but looks can be deceiving. he is not genetically gifted the way that jordan, garnett, payton, miner etc. were but all that means is that he should be working much harder to achieve that level. if he did he would have the quickness necessary to play on both sides of the ball at the small forward position. people like to tout that he is a matchup nightmare on offense but he remains a liability on defense and this will dog him. people like to say that he needs to conserve energy but i call bull**** on that. he's part puerto rican, right? i played football, baseball, and basketball with plenty of borinquenos in my day in new york. most of them had conditioning issues in spite of their athletic skills. native new yorkers know exactly what i am talking about. in baseball you can get away with it but not basketball.

holfresh wrote:

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:Stop it..Melo is balling, period...Ray Charles can see that...28 and 9...Shaq the last to do it...As for the trade, JR replaced Gallo's production..Numbers don't lie...

28 and 9 on a 21-36 team is the definition of empty stats in a vacuum. it's still a team game. is he making others better? nope. never has never will.

your numbers lie champ.

Exactly but you blame 1 guy, not the team...KLove has never been to the playoffs, are u wondering why he hasn't made the rest of the roster better, no...Last year, did u give Melo credit for a 54 win season, can't bring yourself to do it...Bosh and Wade could not do it on their own, everyone needs help...

i am not sure love is "that guy" to be honest. haven't watched him enough. maybe a number two player. so if he is a number two he is not going to go very far.

bosh is definitely not a franchise talent.

frankly i never saw wade as that guy either. i did not like the stern-inspired image burnishing they did for wade that season he had shaq. he has better numbers in terms of team play than i had expected but he was overrated as a scorer at that time. he has improved as a scorer and he is capable of elite defense in spurts. don't like the palming and traveling he does almost every time he handles the ball either. definitely not a franchise talent.

car<meh>lo is a third-team all-nba player, or an allstar reserve level player. he is definitely not a franchise-level player, and neither is amare stoudemire for that matter. the tragedy of the knicks is that carmelo thinks of himself as a franchise level talent and this gross overvaluation of his own talent has undermined any possibility of winning.

the knicks last year without a healthy and energized kidd were a .500 ballclub. look at the numbers for yourself.

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:also to say Melo does not play defense is dishonest. Is he always playing 100%, no, and no one is. I don't have a synergy account but someone posted his a while ago and through 43 games opponents fg% was 38% and was top 6 in the league in isolations. If I believe Woody was an advance stat guy I would say that's why Melo was guarding Dirk but He just put him on Dirk or Melo asked to guard him. Would I like Melo to play elite defense more consistently, yes.

Fine - that opens a legitimate basketball discussion, but all these guys do is call him a stupid obsessed hater.

well when you ignore his defensive abilities and continue to say he plays no defense despite him doing so is strange. It is also strange to say I haven't watch the game but I bet Melo's man went off is weird.

It is also weird to call someone lazy because they are of Puerto Rican decent That's not basketball related. Something is wrong when a persons go there, imo.

Also, I agree with there should not be any name calling for poster or player.

first of all you are "mis-remembering." i said nothing about carmelo anthony that is not backed up by a reasonable amount of scientific studies about ethnicity, diet, obesity, stress.

that he is lazy is an entirely different assertion, having nothing to do with his ethnicity.

so please don't conflate weight issues on the one hand with laziness on the other. one has to do with genetics and lifestyle and the other has to do with character.

bloomberg has done studies, as have others, about the epidemic levels of disease related to diet and lifestyle. for example, a little googling gets you this from the american diabetes association: "The impact of diabetes hits Hispanic, Latino and African American New Yorkers even harder. Almost 28% of Latinos and Hispanics in the New York City market, and 31% of African American New Yorkers, have diabetes. In New York City during 2007, 22 African Americans and 23 Hispanics or Latinos of every 100,000 died from diabetes."

i am not the sort to make outrageous statements based solely on personal experience. but growing up in new york city and playing ball against the full spectrum of new yorkers i reserve the right to say what my personal experience is.

i sincerely hope this clears things up for you.

I remember your exact words. Guys have gotten banned for a lot less. This is your quote.

i think i know the one but looks can be deceiving. he is not genetically gifted the way that jordan, garnett, payton, miner etc. were but all that means is that he should be working much harder to achieve that level. if he did he would have the quickness necessary to play on both sides of the ball at the small forward position. people like to tout that he is a matchup nightmare on offense but he remains a liability on defense and this will dog him. people like to say that he needs to conserve energy but i call bull**** on that. he's part puerto rican, right? i played football, baseball, and basketball with plenty of borinquenos in my day in new york. most of them had conditioning issues in spite of their athletic skills. native new yorkers know exactly what i am talking about. in baseball you can get away with it but not basketball.

Sounds a bit different from how you are spinning it now.

WOW!!!! Can you say, Jimmy the Greek.....

Bonn1997 wrote:He has much more than that. Lots of people jumped to his defense within minutes in the other thread. I'd take not fitting in at realgm as a badge of honor. He's obviously lasted 13 years here.
Sucks to be him? Doesn't suck to be any Knicks fan?!

he has resorted to juvenile attempts to insult me.. He only makes himself look foolish.. as He has been getting mopped up in these debates around here..