Bonn1997 wrote:Dagger wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Dagger wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Dagger wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Dagger wrote:Shump, Felton, and a 1st SHOULD be enough.If the raptors wont take that then forget it.
They'd be better off letting him walk. You're asking them to pay $18 mil for a distant first round pick and Shumpert - a guy who looks like a 2nd round pick.
Give up more than that when the Raptors have absolutely zero leverage? No thanks. This is not a player the raps have under contract for 4 years? How are they better off letting him walk for nothing than they are getting a 1st round pick, a back-up pg and a SG with decent potential...
Lowry is an above average PG but it's not like we're talking about an elite PG.
They can buy a first round pick (which is the only appealing asset we're giving them) for a lot less than $18 mil. Letting him walk is less bad. You're not looking at the finances of the situation.
Teams don't sell first round picks often anymore, and most teams don't have money left at the end of the year to buy the pick. If it was that easy we would have a first round pick every year. You're acting like a first round pick has no value, when has that ever been the case? It's sure as hell better than the whole lot of nothing they'll get when he walks. Where do you get the 18 million figure from, the salaries of Felton and Shumpert combined over the next 3-4 years to sound dramatic? Shumpert is an asset, he's not great but he has upside. If you want to talk salaries, even if we agree to an extension with Lowry it will probably be 40 million/4 years, so we're taking 40 MILLION back in salaries for a player that is playing well in a contract year, and may very quickly revert to a 5 million/year quality player. Then we wasted 20 million AND lost assets. The raptors aren't losing anything besides the chance they had to resign Lowry, which is not very high based on their determination to move him.
There is no risk in this move for Toronto and they have no leverage, it's a perfectly acceptable offer for a player they will lose in a few months. Shumpert and Felton are not net negative players and their contracts are small. I feel like I'm talking to Masai Ujiri right now... The Knicks would be fools to offer anymore than Felton, Shumpert and that pick. Anything more would be laughed at around the league as the Knicks getting fleeced again, outbidding themselves, and rightfully so.
If it sounds dramatic, asking them to spend that much on a 1st round pick in 2018 really is dramatic. It's not monopoly money. They really do have to spend that money. Show me the math. How much is Felton worth? Vet min? OK so that's $1 mil. How much would Shumpert get? I highly doubt more than 2 yrs, $4 mil right now. You're asking them to spend at least $13 mil on a 2018 pick. There's a reason why Toronto rejected that offer. Whether you want to see that reason, doesn't really matter. But show us how the math works out anyway. Or explain why Toronto doesn't care about the total money involved.
You're argument doesn't make sense and frankly it doesn't hold any water which it's why it's seldom used. You're actually using lowball hypothetical contracts to try to justify some point that Toronto would be wasting money signing our players, but your estimates of what the contracts will be are worthless.
Okay, you say Felton is a vet min player that would be signed for one year. I could just as easily, and just as plausibly, turn around and say he's a 3 million dollar a year player and say they'd pay him for three years. Same with Shumpert, you say he's worth 2 million a year, I say teams would be willing to pay him 4 million for 3 years. Oh look my estimates say they are worth 21 million, and that Toronto isn't wasting any money. My point- your estimates of their worth are just as worthless as the ones I just invented. Your argument rests on two points which are both flawed 1) Toronto doesn't overpay players, every player on their roster is worth what he's payed. (Hello Bargnani!)2) Toronto is a team struggling to even afford the salary cap, so much so that overpaying a player by 1 million a year would devastate the team's future. Plus even if Toronto thought the salaries were awful they could trade them because they are on low contracts, especially Shump. The way you're looking at this is just crazy. The raptors lose nothing by making this trade while we lose two assets, they are not losing because you choose to pretend Felton and Shumpert are vet min players that should be payed on 1-2 year contracts their entire careers.
Except the dollar values you're proposing don't pass the laugh test.
You won't find any metric that justifies giving those salaries to Felton or Shumpert
It's not like the eyeball test says they're particularly valuable either
When Felton was a few years younger and healthier, he only got $4 mil a year. And Shumpert is playing like an NBDL call up.
We simply don't do a good job developing
Like Trevor Ariza who was also pretty bad in NYK but turned in to a very good complimentary player in Lakers
We can blame that on our philosophy/system, Iman playing out of position, Iman playing with NO PG (Melo plays point/forward 1/2 the times)
He really tries to do everything from rebounding the ball, defending, pushing the ball, spreading the offense, and the kid doesn't get the credit that with numbers playing out of position
He does in fact need to work on his handle and improve his PG skills, but having players that emphasize PUSHING the ball more, attacking the basket, and better spacing would greatly help
NOT play the PG but work on those skills to help more, he has been playing more liks a SF which he is NOT
He has to be stronger to make up for his size, while he should be working on his speed/quickness and footwork to defend the PG/SG positions but our team is flawed
Lets be honest,
We do need to place a better emphasize on player development, even if Lance Stephenson was drafted by us, he would NEVER have turned out to be a rotational player
That is why we don't value our 2nd round picks
1/28/2014 6:05 PM
