BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

nixluva wrote:The idea that he HAD to give up a pick for Lowry is incorrect from what i've read. It was Felton, MWP and Shump OR THJ OR 2018 Pick. So he could've made the deal with just Felton, MWP and Shump, who he supposedly wanted to trade all summer.

If we the Knicks were commited to a Lowry/Shumpert backcourt I would have no problem with including the pick, maybe try for a 2nd rounder back

The only problem is Shumpert is a bench player at tops.

Bonn1997 wrote:You have to look at the trade from their perspective too. We're giving them 3 marginal NBA players in Shumpert, Felton, and MWP, and asking them to take on an extra $13 mil in salary. That's worse than letting than just letting Lowry walk would be. So of course they're going to ask for a draft pick or THJ. I'd be glad to get out of that $13 mil. Don't forget, if we give $9 mil per for Lowry, we'd be adding only $4.5 mil in salary for the critical 2015 free agent year since they're taking Felton off our hands. We can do this trade only if Lowry agrees to an extension. But we have to give Toronto a reason to take that $13 mil on. We have to make it better for them than just letting Lowry walk would be.

But you seem to be working on the premise that we get rid of Melo- more likely Dolan ends up bestowing a max contract on him, which means we're screwed even further cap space wise by signing Lowry to $8mil. Our team in 2015 will be Melo, 30yr old Lowry, JR- that's $40 mil gone already.

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

nixluva wrote:The idea that he HAD to give up a pick for Lowry is incorrect from what i've read. It was Felton, MWP and Shump OR THJ OR 2018 Pick. So he could've made the deal with just Felton, MWP and Shump, who he supposedly wanted to trade all summer.

If we the Knicks were commited to a Lowry/Shumpert backcourt I would have no problem with including the pick, maybe try for a 2nd rounder back

The only problem is Shumpert is a bench player at tops.

what could Bruce Bowen or Raja Bell do that Shumpert cant? He's still raw but he's played in 120ish NBA games... not even a year and a half.

He looks especially bad now because of the trade rumors (speculation) and he never EVER gets the ball in any kind of position to score (fact). When was the last time you saw a play run for this guy?

Im no Shump homer... He's not future all star but doesnt mean he cant be pretty good

They were both better defenders who guarded well on the ball and off the ball. Shump is a lazy/poor off the ball defender who struggles in traffic. I don't know what their numbers looked at around the rim but they may be better than shump at that too. Shump is probably around league avg right now. Back to D he also has a high foul rate which keeps him off the floor.

He may be another Landry. He should be better but he may not be.

He should be closer to what THJR is on O but a better passer and rebounder yet isn't. So what's holding him back?

nyk4ever wrote:

Vmart wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

Vmart wrote:

djsunyc wrote:this was leaked by toronto. the value has now been set for lowry as this deal was agreed to. i expect him moved in a similar package by monday (most likely to another team). dolan probably won't get back in this b/c he's a stubborn child.

I don't know the infatuation with Lowry, but the Knicks should not even consider a player from the Raptors. There only one player of real value and that is Derozen.

what do you not like about lowry?

He is not that far off from Felton. Coming from a losing environment is my main grip with Lowry. This is a move that will not change the fortunes of the Knicks. I will give you that he plays better defense. Simply put Lowry is not worth that much. I personally think Dolan finally made the right move.

On a positive note Dolan might have realized he has idiots working for him as he had enough brains to nix the deal and that to me is a scary thought.

believe me, i agree with you about the deal that dolan of all people nixed, i wouldn't make that trade either. i can't get on lowry for coming from a losing situation though. from listening to dj, rudy gay was toxic to that team and it sounds like he just did whatever he wanted. when lowry was with houston, they were a winning team and he was a big part of it. the kid plays hard, he never has weight issues, he does tend to get hurt and miss around 10games a year but i think that's from the level of how hard he plays. he plays balls out. we could use a guy like him, he actually gives a ****.

i just dont like the felton comparison at all. if this deal were lowry for shumpert straight-up, i wouldn't even think twice before accepting. we need a guy like him.

Who wouldn't jump at that deal, with the way Shump has turned into Chump-ert. But that deal is not even remotely on the table. If we can convince Ujiri to take Felton+MWP+Shump, sign me up. Lowry can ball and unlike so many NYK players, he gives a **** about playing hard.

Clean wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I don't think one person here wants to give away assets for a 5 month rental. That's nonsense.

This is exactly what this trade is. You know Dolan loves his "Superstars". Do you seriously think he is going to re-sign Lowry and mess up the 2015 plans? This is the same person who would not give out contracts that extend past that summer this offseason.

The Knicks don't have a "Plan" for 2015. They have the option to clear the decks if they choose, but that's not the same thing as a plan. A plan would suggest they have a specific idea on what kind of team they want to build and I doubt that is true.

Lowry would make it so that they aren't wasting this season which is very important given that they don't have a pick. It was Dolan who said this was a Title contending team. If Dolan really believed that then he can't think this team is that far away from contention. Adding Lowry and getting back Tyson would be a huge improvement. That was the idea that started the talks. SO what changed really? Only the fear of embarrassment made Dolan change his mind. That's not a good reason to change your plans. It suggests a lack of conviction and small thinking. I'd have more respect for him sticking to his convictions than pouting about media leaks.

Dolan is a joke because he's not making pure BB decisions. He's worried about the wrong things. Why even get that far in the trade talks if you weren't committed to getting Lowry? Felton, MWP and Shump wasn't too much to give up if you really think the team is a playoff team with a decent PG. Surely Dolan felt the team was a playoff team, if not a Title Team and he wanted to trade Shump anyway, so why get cold feet on this deal that could get the team back on track?

Where will Kyle Lowry end up? We don't know that just yet, but two people with knowledge of the Brooklyn Nets' dealings said a deal won't get done if Raptors general manager Masai Ujiri insists on the inclusion of a first-round draft pick in return. The people spoke on condition on anonymity because of the private nature of trade talks. The Nets don't even have a first-round pick that they can offer until 2020, and Ujiri is known to have asked for it to be included. Brooklyn, it appears, is finally putting a cap on its win-now-pay-for-it-later approach - especially since they're not winning nearly as much as they'd hoped. A deal involving the Nets' young talent remains a possibility as talks continue. Meanwhile, the Raptors would love to land the Knicks' 2018 first-round pick that appeared to be in play in Lowry-Raymond Felton talks with New York but it may not be anymore. Golden State has also discussed Lowry with Toronto but, as of late Friday, viewed the asking price as too high and appeared to be moving on.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2013/12/13/a-to-z-2014-draft-tanking-boston-celtics-milwaukee-bucks-phoenix-suns/4015187/

smackeddog wrote:

Where will Kyle Lowry end up? We don't know that just yet, but two people with knowledge of the Brooklyn Nets' dealings said a deal won't get done if Raptors general manager Masai Ujiri insists on the inclusion of a first-round draft pick in return. The people spoke on condition on anonymity because of the private nature of trade talks. The Nets don't even have a first-round pick that they can offer until 2020, and Ujiri is known to have asked for it to be included. Brooklyn, it appears, is finally putting a cap on its win-now-pay-for-it-later approach - especially since they're not winning nearly as much as they'd hoped. A deal involving the Nets' young talent remains a possibility as talks continue. Meanwhile, the Raptors would love to land the Knicks' 2018 first-round pick that appeared to be in play in Lowry-Raymond Felton talks with New York but it may not be anymore. Golden State has also discussed Lowry with Toronto but, as of late Friday, viewed the asking price as too high and appeared to be moving on.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2013/12/13/a-to-z-2014-draft-tanking-boston-celtics-milwaukee-bucks-phoenix-suns/4015187/

You see everyone thinks they are asking for too much but some Knick fans. Lowry is a good player and I do want him. I just value Shump more than a 5 month rental of Lowry.

Clean wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Where will Kyle Lowry end up? We don't know that just yet, but two people with knowledge of the Brooklyn Nets' dealings said a deal won't get done if Raptors general manager Masai Ujiri insists on the inclusion of a first-round draft pick in return. The people spoke on condition on anonymity because of the private nature of trade talks. The Nets don't even have a first-round pick that they can offer until 2020, and Ujiri is known to have asked for it to be included. Brooklyn, it appears, is finally putting a cap on its win-now-pay-for-it-later approach - especially since they're not winning nearly as much as they'd hoped. A deal involving the Nets' young talent remains a possibility as talks continue. Meanwhile, the Raptors would love to land the Knicks' 2018 first-round pick that appeared to be in play in Lowry-Raymond Felton talks with New York but it may not be anymore. Golden State has also discussed Lowry with Toronto but, as of late Friday, viewed the asking price as too high and appeared to be moving on.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2013/12/13/a-to-z-2014-draft-tanking-boston-celtics-milwaukee-bucks-phoenix-suns/4015187/

You see everyone thinks they are asking for too much but some Knick fans. Lowry is a good player and I do want him. I just value Shump more than a 5 month rental of Lowry.

I think we have a different deal with Shump lined up- doesn't make sense that Dolan wouldn't have agreed to put him in the raptors deal.