Bonn1997 wrote:So are you still trying to argue that JR is better than Lin? I don't know what your main point is? They still look even in most areas with the exception of a huge advantage in scoring efficiency for Lin. They both were sixth men on comparable teams. Until you provide evidence that JR was playing more meaningful minutes than Lin, that's just an unsupported statement.
BTW, the defensive rating is how many points per 100 possessions the man you're guarding scores. So all of those factors - at least insofar as they impact the amount your man scores - do count.

At the moment, JR is not better than Lin but when he is healthy and clicking on all cylinders, absolutely. Let's be honest, they were both 6th men but only one was 6th Man of the Year while the other got bumped to the trading block. There is no symmetry between both players and that award is plenty enough evidence.

And again, you're ignoring the inherent flaws with these metrics. As far as Defensive Ratings are concerned, does it standardize for the position being guarded? After all, not all positions are created equal and their priorities of a PG (distribute the ball) are different from swingmen (who are finishers). The later probably scores more than the former on average, which can skew the data and give the impression that Lin's a better defender at PG even though his man isn't looking to score as much. Does the metric also take into account the competency of the supporting cast and how they may positively or negatively impact the players ability to contain his man? Does it standardize for the amount of energy a player has to expend? After all, it's a bit unfair to compare players if one player has to create shots for himself, his teammates, be the 3rd best rebounder on the team, the 2nd best floor spacer AND also defend while all the other player has to do is defend. I can go on and on about the metrics other potential flaws. Nothing substitutes the eye test and the eye test, along with that 6th Man of the Year Award (aka popular opinion), has told me that J.R. is easily the superior player.

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:So are you still trying to argue that JR is better than Lin? I don't know what your main point is? They still look even in most areas with the exception of a huge advantage in scoring efficiency for Lin. They both were sixth men on comparable teams. Until you provide evidence that JR was playing more meaningful minutes than Lin, that's just an unsupported statement.
BTW, the defensive rating is how many points per 100 possessions the man you're guarding scores. So all of those factors - at least insofar as they impact the amount your man scores - do count.

At the moment, JR is not better than Lin but when he is healthy and clicking on all cylinders, absolutely. Let's be honest, they were both 6th men but only one was 6th Man of the Year while the other got bumped to the trading block. There is no symmetry between both players and that award is plenty enough evidence.

And again, you're ignoring the inherent flaws with these metrics. As far as Defensive Ratings are concerned, does it standardize for the position being guarded? After all, not all positions are created equal and their priorities of a PG (distribute the ball) are different from swingmen (who are finishers). The later probably scores more than the former on average, which can skew the data and give the impression that Lin's a better defender at PG even though his man isn't looking to score as much. Does the metric also take into account the competency of the supporting cast and how they may positively or negatively impact the players ability to contain his man? Does it standardize for the amount of energy a player has to expend? After all, it's a bit unfair to compare players if one player has to create shots for himself, his teammates, be the 3rd best rebounder on the team, the 2nd best floor spacer AND also defend while all the other player has to do is defend. I can go on and on about the metrics other potential flaws. Nothing substitutes the eye test and the eye test, along with that 6th Man of the Year Award (aka popular opinion), has told me that J.R. is easily the superior player.

You really should read about the metrics. You sound like I did about 4 years ago. Berri's book, the Wages of Wins, is a great introduction (even though there are better systems than his wins produced stat) and this website is a good discussion forum: http://apbr.org/metrics/.
The problem with the eyeball test is that it heavily favors the higher PPG player no matter how inefficient the extra scoring is. It's the main reason why there is almost no correlation between team payroll and wins. Even GMs can't tell just by using their own two eyes how valuable a player is. They just think the high PPG player is more valuable. The cutoff is around 31% from the field in terms of the eyeball test - if you make roughly 1 of every 3 shots, you should just keep shooting. You'll get paid more and be more popular. You're better off averaging 8.0 FGs on 18.0 FGAs than 6.0 for 12.0 in terms of your next contract even though 4 extra points on 6 shots is pretty bad.

Lin, like I've been telling all of you freaking guys, is a guy that's just getting started,

Guys wanna jump on him for his first season in Houston,

LOLZ, give me a break, the kid is 26 and had a late start, and he's been overcoming **** his entire career,

Nash didn't start dropping serious buckets until age 30,

Lin is gonna be fine, he will be so good that you will cry about letting him go, you don't get it, you don't get it, no one gets it,

GOD DROPPED A POINT GUARD INTO OUR LAP AND MELO AND DOLAN SENT HIM PACKING LIKE HE IS A PUNK BITCH,

THE COSMOS WILL NEVER FORGET YOU FOR THIS, DOLAN AND MELO, YOU UGLY BRUTES, DISGUSTING PEOPLE

Bonn1997 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Lin is either fragile or a slow healer. My guess is this drags out a bit more than 2 weeks. After His surgery with the Knicks he was supposed to be able to come back in the playoffs and it was still bothering him at the beginning of the Rockets season last year 7 months later. He also had the chest injury last year that was a first. I am sure he will be back when he is 100%.

I'd take 60 games a season of Lin over 82 games from any of our backcourt players.

Bingo. And it's not as if our backcourt is some paragon of health. Shumpert has battled knee problems every year he's been in the league so far; Felton gets hurt every year since we signed him three years ago missing 7, 16, 14, and 4 games so far this season; Prigioni is 36 years old and probably can't hold up over the rigors of a full NBA season; JR is a knucklehead who's always in danger of getting suspended, even during the playoffs.

SlimChin wrote:Hope Lin gets traded and ends up on a team that can properly utilize him.

NYKBocker wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

SlimChin wrote:Hope Lin gets traded and ends up on a team that can properly utilize him.

Brooks needs to get minutes. Lin and Beverly are both very good. I think one of them will be moved.

Lin and Asik will be moved. I just hope Knicks can swallow its pride and go after Lin.

Bonn1997 wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

RonRon wrote:JR: 12 pts, 1 assist on .322% FG.
J Lin: 15 pts, 4.5 assists on .503% FG.

Who has the "ridiculous" contract now Melo? Ridiculous to let Jeremy Lin go, Dolan.

You are aware that the body of work you're citing is only 12 games long and that JR Smith has been the exponentially better of the two over the course of their respective careers, right? Never mind the fact that Lin still makes $2 million more than Smith this season and will have that figure triple by next season.

The only thing JR is better at is getting suspensions.

seriously? What are you basing this off of?

The same thing they base everything off of. FG%. It's the key to life.

Who cares about the playoffs, anyway?

Next brilliant quip: With the way JR performed last year, Lin had a greater impact by sitting out of the playoffs.

Yeah, I just don't get them. JR's antics piss me off to no end, which is why I thought we should've traded him in 2011 after he first signed with us. I'd still trade him now if the right deal came along but his talent and impact on the floor can't be denied.

P.S., I'm glad that we can agree on something and be civil to one another. My apologies if you've felt insulted by me in the past.

Dude! Not at all! I may be a friggin rightwingnut conservative, board-on homer, but I never take any of this internet stuff all that seriously. No matter what the typing may look like. This always beats actually working.

No insults taken, and hopefully likewise.

Peace.

You guys are great at stroking each other but tell me what JR does better than Lin

1) JR doesn't wear as many suits during the playoffs.
2) Lin would be shut down right now for the next two seasons after knee surgery, and this thread wouldn't exist.