knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

raven wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

RonRon wrote:Using Novak as a SPREAD the floor type player just DOESN'T WORK
All the opponents DEFENSE has to do is put the man 1v1 on him and NEVER CHEAT or HELP when they cannot recover in time to contest his shot, and he will be locked down
Our DEF constantly helps even when we face shooters that have been great shooters the entire career and yet continue to let them get hot because our philosophy on DEF requires HELP and constant switching, like recently on players like Kevin Martin (is this on the coach or players)

We all noticed the difference between the play of Novak and many others from Lin initiating our offense versus Melo doing it
Yet our coach continues to stick with this philosophy on OFFENSE that doesn't work along with his DEFENSIVE lineups and philosophies that are completely flawed and also don't work

Spot on.

Not at all.
If a man can't help that means the threat job is done.
You can't double Melo using Novak's man, which put a new constraint in the defense equation.
Melo being unguardable 1on1 is another one. Put too many of those constraints on the floor at the same time and defense can't adjust.

You guys just keep at looking a the tree in front of the forest...

Silly. Most coaches won't have you leave any man open consistently from one to twelve, and Melo usually doesn't get double teamed unless he's under the rim and about to shoot, which at that point makes no difference if Novak is open or not because Melo isn't passing the ball. Most of Novak's buckets came in transition with his defender trailing, not because Melo was double teamed.

melo positions himself in the easiest spot to double....the elbow since there wont ever be a clear passing lane.

But with Novak on the court that extra defend cant leave.

melo was not doubled nearly as much last year.

No one is doubling Melo away from the rim with any frequency this season either. You guys keep saying that just the threat of Novak on the team is enough of a reason to keep him. Not buying it. Novak is very lucky to drain a 3 with someone in his face in a half court set. I count one time last season where I saw him drain a jumper from inside the arc. He can't put the ball on the floor and he's a lousy defender. Bargs puts up 20/10 with 4 blocks, does a great job on Griffin, does a better job in the 4th, but you're still talking about Novak, which some of you will change the subject to draft picks and keep changing the rationale for trading Novak.

Stats dont impress me without impact....Novak's impact without taking a single shot is better than anything Bargnani will ever put up.

This team will always be built around melo as long as he's here, so it would make sense to have more long distance threats so he can shoot his mid range j's with as few defenders around as possible.

Novak provided that, Bargs dont.

All winning teams have a Novak, none have a Bargnani.

The only thing Bargs should be judged on is his contribution to the team which has been increasing steadily since the start of the season. You shouldn't blame him for what you find lacking in Melo. You're right, Bargs isn't standing in a corner trying to live off his rep as a 3 pt specialist. Kidd was a much more important three point shooter for this team. Did Novak pick up the slack? Give us clutch 3s when we needed it? No he didn't.

What Bargs is doing is providing scoring from everywhere, playing defense well against some of the best bigs in the league, and one of the few bright spots this season.

As for your last statement, yes winning teams usually have a 3 pt specialist but not necessarily a "Novak" who needs everything to be just right for him to make a 3. Shawne Williams was one of the best 3 point shooters in the league before we traded him because he too couldn't deliver in the clutch.

SW was never a 3pt specialist, he was a corner three shooter...Novak has always been a three point shooter.

But no, this team will be judged by results, and this team is built badly from top to bottom.

individually guys are doing well, but unfortunately for them it's supposed to be a team, and none of them play as one.

Whatever you want to call Shawne he was one of the best 3pt shooters in the league at the time but he had the same problem as Novak, although he was a better defender. I defended Novak last season when he wasn't giving us anything and posters were going off on him, so its not like I'm biased.

When we got bargs I said it might work but time will tell. Time is showing someone who is not the problem here, even though I keep hearing it. If Novak was all that important, he would be able to stick with a team. I got nothing against him, he was fun to watch that first season but I need more than just the perceived threat of his shooting and an actual, measurable contribution which Novak didn't give us last season. If he had he probably would still be here.

If JR, Shump, Beno, Prigs, Felton, among others were doing their share, I doubt we would be talking about Novak and Bargs. Bigger fish to fry IMO.

Specialist hardly stay with the same team.

Korver is a damn good three point shooter but has played on many teams, even one of the best ever in Steve Kerr played on at least three.

Of course if guys were doing their share the convo would be different, but dont you think it's odd that everybody came out the gate playing like trash?

Korver spent his first 5 years in Philly, then 3 years in Utah, Novak can't stay with a team more than 2 seasons but truth be told Korver is a clutch shooter and on a different level, at least he used to be. Some three point specialists jump around but that's usually because there are weaknesses in their game that make them easier to move. Guys like John Paxson and Steve Kerr had no trouble staying with a team and were in demand.

We're playing like trash For a bunch of reasons, but I don't believe that Novak has anything to do with our lack of success.

The ability to have a spread floor is an issue....nobody is providing that.

For me i think it's talent related, been saying it all summer, this team isnt as good as last years.

Ball movement and our shooters actually making shots will spread the floor. Since we have very little of both this season it looks like one big clusterfrak. I agree about this team overall being not as good. Just want to see what they will do once Tyson is here and gets his legs back. Our starting SG is averaging 3 pts a game, that isn't helping. Our 6th man is playing like he just left a club, that isn't helping either, neither is inconsistent play from our PGs. Felton has heart but if he can't play well consistently, then we have to look to upgrade.

if this is Shump, the kid has checked out, he knows he's gone, no need to break a sweat.

I really don't believe Shump is tanking, I think Woodson has handled him poorly and is inside his head. Some players respond differently to the drill sergeant approach, especially if he believes more established vets are getting a pass. I believe Shump really loves playing in NYC and the thought of leaving for maybe some small market hell has him panicked. Just hope he can get his confidence back soon or he will be sent packing.

I honestly dont think Shump forgot how to defend, thats the area that is most glaring.

I wonder if his knees are giving him problems? Lateral movement isn't what it was, isn't fast enough to slide and take charges this season, he hasn't shown much lift when he elevates either.

Don't know if you watched the last game but he looked much livelier on D, Shump put in the effort. The offense however is still ca ca. He's playing so poorly that they don't look to pass to him anymore. Until Shump can earn their trust again he's going to be on the outside looking in.

In hindsight he should have taken the coach up on that pg run opportunity.

But yes, i would expect his defense to be somewhat better against a good team, all of them do that from time to time.

Im glad that Murry got the time at PG because he has better court vision than Shump, helped him make the squad. The only reason I wanted Shump there was to work on his SG skills. I see someone who has made being a New Yorker part of who he is. I don't believe any aspiring rapper wants to be sent to Minny .

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

raven wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

RonRon wrote:Using Novak as a SPREAD the floor type player just DOESN'T WORK
All the opponents DEFENSE has to do is put the man 1v1 on him and NEVER CHEAT or HELP when they cannot recover in time to contest his shot, and he will be locked down
Our DEF constantly helps even when we face shooters that have been great shooters the entire career and yet continue to let them get hot because our philosophy on DEF requires HELP and constant switching, like recently on players like Kevin Martin (is this on the coach or players)

We all noticed the difference between the play of Novak and many others from Lin initiating our offense versus Melo doing it
Yet our coach continues to stick with this philosophy on OFFENSE that doesn't work along with his DEFENSIVE lineups and philosophies that are completely flawed and also don't work

Spot on.

Not at all.
If a man can't help that means the threat job is done.
You can't double Melo using Novak's man, which put a new constraint in the defense equation.
Melo being unguardable 1on1 is another one. Put too many of those constraints on the floor at the same time and defense can't adjust.

You guys just keep at looking a the tree in front of the forest...

Silly. Most coaches won't have you leave any man open consistently from one to twelve, and Melo usually doesn't get double teamed unless he's under the rim and about to shoot, which at that point makes no difference if Novak is open or not because Melo isn't passing the ball. Most of Novak's buckets came in transition with his defender trailing, not because Melo was double teamed.

melo positions himself in the easiest spot to double....the elbow since there wont ever be a clear passing lane.

But with Novak on the court that extra defend cant leave.

melo was not doubled nearly as much last year.

No one is doubling Melo away from the rim with any frequency this season either. You guys keep saying that just the threat of Novak on the team is enough of a reason to keep him. Not buying it. Novak is very lucky to drain a 3 with someone in his face in a half court set. I count one time last season where I saw him drain a jumper from inside the arc. He can't put the ball on the floor and he's a lousy defender. Bargs puts up 20/10 with 4 blocks, does a great job on Griffin, does a better job in the 4th, but you're still talking about Novak, which some of you will change the subject to draft picks and keep changing the rationale for trading Novak.

Stats dont impress me without impact....Novak's impact without taking a single shot is better than anything Bargnani will ever put up.

This team will always be built around melo as long as he's here, so it would make sense to have more long distance threats so he can shoot his mid range j's with as few defenders around as possible.

Novak provided that, Bargs dont.

All winning teams have a Novak, none have a Bargnani.

The only thing Bargs should be judged on is his contribution to the team which has been increasing steadily since the start of the season. You shouldn't blame him for what you find lacking in Melo. You're right, Bargs isn't standing in a corner trying to live off his rep as a 3 pt specialist. Kidd was a much more important three point shooter for this team. Did Novak pick up the slack? Give us clutch 3s when we needed it? No he didn't.

What Bargs is doing is providing scoring from everywhere, playing defense well against some of the best bigs in the league, and one of the few bright spots this season.

As for your last statement, yes winning teams usually have a 3 pt specialist but not necessarily a "Novak" who needs everything to be just right for him to make a 3. Shawne Williams was one of the best 3 point shooters in the league before we traded him because he too couldn't deliver in the clutch.

SW was never a 3pt specialist, he was a corner three shooter...Novak has always been a three point shooter.

But no, this team will be judged by results, and this team is built badly from top to bottom.

individually guys are doing well, but unfortunately for them it's supposed to be a team, and none of them play as one.

Whatever you want to call Shawne he was one of the best 3pt shooters in the league at the time but he had the same problem as Novak, although he was a better defender. I defended Novak last season when he wasn't giving us anything and posters were going off on him, so its not like I'm biased.

When we got bargs I said it might work but time will tell. Time is showing someone who is not the problem here, even though I keep hearing it. If Novak was all that important, he would be able to stick with a team. I got nothing against him, he was fun to watch that first season but I need more than just the perceived threat of his shooting and an actual, measurable contribution which Novak didn't give us last season. If he had he probably would still be here.

If JR, Shump, Beno, Prigs, Felton, among others were doing their share, I doubt we would be talking about Novak and Bargs. Bigger fish to fry IMO.

Specialist hardly stay with the same team.

Korver is a damn good three point shooter but has played on many teams, even one of the best ever in Steve Kerr played on at least three.

Of course if guys were doing their share the convo would be different, but dont you think it's odd that everybody came out the gate playing like trash?

Korver spent his first 5 years in Philly, then 3 years in Utah, Novak can't stay with a team more than 2 seasons but truth be told Korver is a clutch shooter and on a different level, at least he used to be. Some three point specialists jump around but that's usually because there are weaknesses in their game that make them easier to move. Guys like John Paxson and Steve Kerr had no trouble staying with a team and were in demand.

We're playing like trash For a bunch of reasons, but I don't believe that Novak has anything to do with our lack of success.

The ability to have a spread floor is an issue....nobody is providing that.

For me i think it's talent related, been saying it all summer, this team isnt as good as last years.

Ball movement and our shooters actually making shots will spread the floor. Since we have very little of both this season it looks like one big clusterfrak. I agree about this team overall being not as good. Just want to see what they will do once Tyson is here and gets his legs back. Our starting SG is averaging 3 pts a game, that isn't helping. Our 6th man is playing like he just left a club, that isn't helping either, neither is inconsistent play from our PGs. Felton has heart but if he can't play well consistently, then we have to look to upgrade.

if this is Shump, the kid has checked out, he knows he's gone, no need to break a sweat.

I really don't believe Shump is tanking, I think Woodson has handled him poorly and is inside his head. Some players respond differently to the drill sergeant approach, especially if he believes more established vets are getting a pass. I believe Shump really loves playing in NYC and the thought of leaving for maybe some small market hell has him panicked. Just hope he can get his confidence back soon or he will be sent packing.

I honestly dont think Shump forgot how to defend, thats the area that is most glaring.

I wonder if his knees are giving him problems? Lateral movement isn't what it was, isn't fast enough to slide and take charges this season, he hasn't shown much lift when he elevates either.

Don't know if you watched the last game but he looked much livelier on D, Shump put in the effort. The offense however is still ca ca. He's playing so poorly that they don't look to pass to him anymore. Until Shump can earn their trust again he's going to be on the outside looking in.

Shumpert was running the break with THJ and throwing down dunks. Then the season started and we reverted back to our bread and butter. Slow pace half court offense. Guys like Shumpert will never excel on a team that doesn't move the ball or run. Same goes for Novak

gunsnewing wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knickscity wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

raven wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

RonRon wrote:Using Novak as a SPREAD the floor type player just DOESN'T WORK
All the opponents DEFENSE has to do is put the man 1v1 on him and NEVER CHEAT or HELP when they cannot recover in time to contest his shot, and he will be locked down
Our DEF constantly helps even when we face shooters that have been great shooters the entire career and yet continue to let them get hot because our philosophy on DEF requires HELP and constant switching, like recently on players like Kevin Martin (is this on the coach or players)

We all noticed the difference between the play of Novak and many others from Lin initiating our offense versus Melo doing it
Yet our coach continues to stick with this philosophy on OFFENSE that doesn't work along with his DEFENSIVE lineups and philosophies that are completely flawed and also don't work

Spot on.

Not at all.
If a man can't help that means the threat job is done.
You can't double Melo using Novak's man, which put a new constraint in the defense equation.
Melo being unguardable 1on1 is another one. Put too many of those constraints on the floor at the same time and defense can't adjust.

You guys just keep at looking a the tree in front of the forest...

Silly. Most coaches won't have you leave any man open consistently from one to twelve, and Melo usually doesn't get double teamed unless he's under the rim and about to shoot, which at that point makes no difference if Novak is open or not because Melo isn't passing the ball. Most of Novak's buckets came in transition with his defender trailing, not because Melo was double teamed.

melo positions himself in the easiest spot to double....the elbow since there wont ever be a clear passing lane.

But with Novak on the court that extra defend cant leave.

melo was not doubled nearly as much last year.

No one is doubling Melo away from the rim with any frequency this season either. You guys keep saying that just the threat of Novak on the team is enough of a reason to keep him. Not buying it. Novak is very lucky to drain a 3 with someone in his face in a half court set. I count one time last season where I saw him drain a jumper from inside the arc. He can't put the ball on the floor and he's a lousy defender. Bargs puts up 20/10 with 4 blocks, does a great job on Griffin, does a better job in the 4th, but you're still talking about Novak, which some of you will change the subject to draft picks and keep changing the rationale for trading Novak.

Stats dont impress me without impact....Novak's impact without taking a single shot is better than anything Bargnani will ever put up.

This team will always be built around melo as long as he's here, so it would make sense to have more long distance threats so he can shoot his mid range j's with as few defenders around as possible.

Novak provided that, Bargs dont.

All winning teams have a Novak, none have a Bargnani.

The only thing Bargs should be judged on is his contribution to the team which has been increasing steadily since the start of the season. You shouldn't blame him for what you find lacking in Melo. You're right, Bargs isn't standing in a corner trying to live off his rep as a 3 pt specialist. Kidd was a much more important three point shooter for this team. Did Novak pick up the slack? Give us clutch 3s when we needed it? No he didn't.

What Bargs is doing is providing scoring from everywhere, playing defense well against some of the best bigs in the league, and one of the few bright spots this season.

As for your last statement, yes winning teams usually have a 3 pt specialist but not necessarily a "Novak" who needs everything to be just right for him to make a 3. Shawne Williams was one of the best 3 point shooters in the league before we traded him because he too couldn't deliver in the clutch.

SW was never a 3pt specialist, he was a corner three shooter...Novak has always been a three point shooter.

But no, this team will be judged by results, and this team is built badly from top to bottom.

individually guys are doing well, but unfortunately for them it's supposed to be a team, and none of them play as one.

Whatever you want to call Shawne he was one of the best 3pt shooters in the league at the time but he had the same problem as Novak, although he was a better defender. I defended Novak last season when he wasn't giving us anything and posters were going off on him, so its not like I'm biased.

When we got bargs I said it might work but time will tell. Time is showing someone who is not the problem here, even though I keep hearing it. If Novak was all that important, he would be able to stick with a team. I got nothing against him, he was fun to watch that first season but I need more than just the perceived threat of his shooting and an actual, measurable contribution which Novak didn't give us last season. If he had he probably would still be here.

If JR, Shump, Beno, Prigs, Felton, among others were doing their share, I doubt we would be talking about Novak and Bargs. Bigger fish to fry IMO.

Specialist hardly stay with the same team.

Korver is a damn good three point shooter but has played on many teams, even one of the best ever in Steve Kerr played on at least three.

Of course if guys were doing their share the convo would be different, but dont you think it's odd that everybody came out the gate playing like trash?

Korver spent his first 5 years in Philly, then 3 years in Utah, Novak can't stay with a team more than 2 seasons but truth be told Korver is a clutch shooter and on a different level, at least he used to be. Some three point specialists jump around but that's usually because there are weaknesses in their game that make them easier to move. Guys like John Paxson and Steve Kerr had no trouble staying with a team and were in demand.

We're playing like trash For a bunch of reasons, but I don't believe that Novak has anything to do with our lack of success.

The ability to have a spread floor is an issue....nobody is providing that.

For me i think it's talent related, been saying it all summer, this team isnt as good as last years.

Ball movement and our shooters actually making shots will spread the floor. Since we have very little of both this season it looks like one big clusterfrak. I agree about this team overall being not as good. Just want to see what they will do once Tyson is here and gets his legs back. Our starting SG is averaging 3 pts a game, that isn't helping. Our 6th man is playing like he just left a club, that isn't helping either, neither is inconsistent play from our PGs. Felton has heart but if he can't play well consistently, then we have to look to upgrade.

if this is Shump, the kid has checked out, he knows he's gone, no need to break a sweat.

I really don't believe Shump is tanking, I think Woodson has handled him poorly and is inside his head. Some players respond differently to the drill sergeant approach, especially if he believes more established vets are getting a pass. I believe Shump really loves playing in NYC and the thought of leaving for maybe some small market hell has him panicked. Just hope he can get his confidence back soon or he will be sent packing.

I honestly dont think Shump forgot how to defend, thats the area that is most glaring.

I wonder if his knees are giving him problems? Lateral movement isn't what it was, isn't fast enough to slide and take charges this season, he hasn't shown much lift when he elevates either.

Don't know if you watched the last game but he looked much livelier on D, Shump put in the effort. The offense however is still ca ca. He's playing so poorly that they don't look to pass to him anymore. Until Shump can earn their trust again he's going to be on the outside looking in.

Shumpert was running the break with THJ and throwing down dunks. Then the season started and we reverted back to our bread and butter. Slow pace half court offense. Guys like Shumpert will never excel on a team that doesn't move the ball or run. Same goes for Novak

Shump won't excel unless he gives up on the Rucker moves, and expands his game. He hasn't been over-dribbling lately so that's a plus, hope he keeps it up. Also has to do a better job of moving without the ball. Is much too athletic and too young not to expand his game. I thought he was going to have a breakout year, but sadly, he's a basket case out there. At some point a change of scenery will be the only thing that will snap him out of it. We're rapidly approaching that point if we haven't already. His trade value is in the cellar so he still has some time, but maybe not that much. Maybe the all star break.

GustavBahler wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Start Murray and Shumpert. Run the floor and move the ball. Melos efficiency numbers will get better

I would love to see that tried, was thinking the same thing. Might be what Shump needs, someone more willing to get him going. Still has to take it upon himself to contribute.