Knixkik wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

dk7th wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?

Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.

1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo is a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing exactly one 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.•
A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

first i don't compare apples to oranges. say what you wish about stoudemire but he came as a free agent and that means it was just dolan's money. moreover, dolan-- beyond the tacit mandate of the league to clean up his and isiah's mess by bringing in walsh-- drives the agenda for this team. a courageous, uncynical owner would have foregone the two-star approach and built patiently until a better situation came along. he had the option to do so but like most of the knick fanbase, he is an impatient dullard that prizes entertainment over winning.

building a winner requires patience and shrewdness. he lacks both but deep pockets keep you in the game. he is like a bad poker player who keeps replenishing his chips even if he is losing because he is willing to pay for being amused even as he is losing.

second, the writer is missing the obvious: the game has passed carmelo anthony by. it's a new era where efficiency is prized over volume and defense is in higher demand than ever. his analysis is therefore misleading let alone lazy.

instead of providing stability the roster has been in constant turmoil, much of it having to do with how difficult carmelo anthony is to play with, let alone build around.

So Stat was a humble, ungreedy soul who just took stupid Dolan's money. And promptly did sheehit for 3.5 out of 4 years. Compared to Melo's apples. Yes, I see your logic there.

Yes, and your incessant whining about efficiency and game passing and owner stupidity has a tremendous amount to do with the value of the pieces of oranges we gave away to get Carmelo, the greedy fool.

why are constantly peevish and uncivil? stoudemire got max money not because he was greedy but because dolan was desperate to get a name in new york city and stoudemire was in the right place at the right time. you can make a case for saying that we gave up only lee i suppose.

and nobody feels stat is a franchise talent, do they? so while dolan felt it necessary to overpay for damaged goods how does that translate to stoudemire being either humble or greedy? i liked the team we had starting out in 2010-2011 but i did not like felton much at all and i thought stat was too selfish and limited anyway. so he was a number two guy who got max money but did not cost the knicks human assets. had melo done the same thing that would have been acceptable.

if anything i have to believe that stoudemire was humiliated in the wake of the melo deal. and i felt that once he was paired with a real point guard he would have thrived. instead we acquire a player who is essentially redundant and stoudemire gets shoved aside and becomes immediately irrelevant. much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.

Are you kidding? What happened to Amare was what the doctors in Phoenix said would happen and the reason he isn't on the Suns. You also have to consider that D'Antoni rode Amare like he was Secretariat at the Center position and he wore down as the season went on. This is a new low though. Blaming Melo for Amare's physical breaking down.

melo isn't to blame for stoudemire breaking down that is preposterous. and neither is d'antoni responsible for stoudemire breaking down, that too is preposterous. you're playing games again.

stoudemire is responsible for stoudemire breaking down. coming to new york he knew how to do one thing great which is finish on a pick and roll-- provided he had a good point guard. instead we get felton. not having any ability to be a playmaker for others, and dealing with a third-rate felton even in a d'antoni system, he does the only other thing he thinks he is capable of: going one on three night after night. i knew it was baloney but people like you love when players go into this asinine beast mode. and yet you still think he saved the knicks. i think what he did was foolish-- he is responsible for breaking himself down.

the secretariat quote from d'antoni was in reference to jeremy lin.

to any student of the game it was clear that stoudemire nightly broke away from the system and succeeded in freezing out teammates, even as an inept felton was incapable of keeping others involved.

I agree but what was your point in posting this nonsense?

much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.[/quote]
If it was baloney why do you post such nonsense. Like your assessment of Melo's shoulder injury from what you saw on tv. Also, not sure where you are coming from with your 'people like me' comment. I am a fan and I do get excited during games. It is what is fun about being a fan. Again, don't post stuff likes its the truth and then react when you get called out on it. Keep it real. No need for backpedaling and fake outrage if you post the truth. Not interested in how it was baloney or hearing about your shoulder injuries make you an expert. Most guys that work out have had rotator cuff injuries. I have only encountered one that can diagnose the minimal impact of it on a basketball player from watching it on tv.

He rarely has any point. And he's spent 4 pages now not answering two simple questions, but wet-dreaming about make believe assets and draft picks and yoots that haven't panned out to be anything. Which somehow makes him a subject matter expert talking in circles above everyone's head.

It's okay.

Soon we'll read about Melo's greedy fool impact on the declining attendance at Bulgarian league games.

Its amazing how Melo gets blamed for everything around here. Blamed for the Knicks trade like he was the GM, blamed for Amare's decline like he's the doctor, blamed for Gallo's lack of growth like he's the trainer, blamed for Felton's problems like he's the dietitian, blamed for Lin like he's now a superstar on the Rockets. My favorite is how he was supposed to say no to an extension during a looming lockout so we could keep Gallo, chandler, and the great Moz. LOL this place is unreal.

I agree with everything you said about Melo and the modest value we sent to get him. Even so, assets are assets and I can't help but think that those guys could've been repackaged in another to get us a player we needed like CP3. That and draft picks was a far more compelling off than the one NOH originally got from LAL, and had it been made, I don't think it would've gotten nixed since it could have been marketed as moves for the future. I suppose we'll never know though.

The real mistake the Knicks made was waiving Corey Brewer when they did. Not only has he become a productive player but he could've been used as a sign and trade asset for Tyson Chandler, since Dallas wanted him all along anyway. That would've preserved our amnesty to use on Amar'e and allowed us to keep Billups' expiring contract to parlay into other moves. That one single move turned us from a team on the cusps of building a Dallas Mavericks-esque contender to being forced to present guys like Raymond Felton and Andrea Bargnani as franchise saviours. All because ****ing Donnie Walsh was butt buddies with Amare's agent Happy Walters (who was Corey's as well) and all because D'Antoni can't make use of a player without a jumpshot no matter how talented they are.

The problem with our package was Gallo and Chandler were both due to be paid the following year. Rebuilding teams wants 2 things: high draft picks and promising players on rookie contracts. Gallo and Chandler would have only offered a team one year at rookie cost and then due the money they are making now. It significantly lessens their value. And i agree 100% about Brewer, that was stupid to let him go for nothing. The Billups thing was unfortunately because of Stoudemire's decline. It wasn't a bad move at the time, just bad with what we know now. If anything, that hurt us the most. That as well as letting Lin and Fields walk as opposed to trading them sooner. People talk about losing assets for Melo, but Fields and Lin were assets that we got nothing for.

To be fair, Eric Gordon and Chris Kaman were expiring contracts that the Hornets got in return. In the initial trade, NOH accepted Lamar Odom (expirer), Luis Scola and Kevin Martin with no picks. All those guys had bloated contracts, were in their 30's and clearly passed their prime so I can't help but feel that the issues with our package were moot. Even in terms of value, it's hard to say that our package was lacking. Eric Gordon is better than Gallo but was he appreciably better? Wilson Chandler though was IMMENSELY better than Al Farouq Aminu. Landry Fields still had his hype and could've easily been the 10th pick of the draft that year (Austin Rivers). Timofey Mozgov had some nice games, including a 23 point and 17 rebound game against Detriot before he got traded to Denver, so I would've imagined that his stock would've been high. AND Chauncey Billups has always been better than Chris Kaman. I think you're underestimating this move but all I've got is conjecture at this point.

As for Lin and Fields, I wholeheartedly agree. After Lin got hurt, we should've looked to trade Fields immediately for a late 1st round pick/early 2nd round pick during the season. After all, he had put up some pretty good games playing at a quickened pace with Jeremy and without Melo. Even if we let him walk at season's end and only could pursue a sign and trade, that would've been a $5 million trade exception we could've used to get someone else, while preserving our Mid-Level Exception.

As for Jeremy, I still don't understand why we didn't sign and trade him in that deal the Rockets made with the Raptors for their 1st round pick. We should've walked away with Marcus Camby (sign and traded) and Toronto's pick (that became Steven Adams). Toronto should've still gotten Lowry and Houston should've gotten Lin. There was no excuse for us not to get something back considering the value he generated during the season, on and off the court; not to mention the leverage we had against Houston who had just missed out on Dwight Howard and had already committed to trade away both their PG's to clear cap space for him. We had the Rockets by the balls and we still screwed things up. But, we're dealing with the Knicks and have to accept a grain of ineptitude in everything that we do.

Yes, Gordon was an expiring contract as well. Difference is, they viewed him as a future superstar. Obviously injuries and possibly attitude/fit have prevented that, but NO wanted him badly because they thought he was a player you could build around. While teams liked Gallo, no one saw him as anything near that. Everything else i agree with you. I don't think our issue has been as much about trading away picks, it's wasting assets and not getting anything in return. Lin and Fields are the biggest examples of that. Getting Melo for Gallo, Chandler, and a couple picks is far from the problem. Any assets we had left over are gone without compensation. Melo is the only thing we have to show for it, plus Chandler possible.

NardDogNation wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

dk7th wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?

Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.

1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo is a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing exactly one 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.•
A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

first i don't compare apples to oranges. say what you wish about stoudemire but he came as a free agent and that means it was just dolan's money. moreover, dolan-- beyond the tacit mandate of the league to clean up his and isiah's mess by bringing in walsh-- drives the agenda for this team. a courageous, uncynical owner would have foregone the two-star approach and built patiently until a better situation came along. he had the option to do so but like most of the knick fanbase, he is an impatient dullard that prizes entertainment over winning.

building a winner requires patience and shrewdness. he lacks both but deep pockets keep you in the game. he is like a bad poker player who keeps replenishing his chips even if he is losing because he is willing to pay for being amused even as he is losing.

second, the writer is missing the obvious: the game has passed carmelo anthony by. it's a new era where efficiency is prized over volume and defense is in higher demand than ever. his analysis is therefore misleading let alone lazy.

instead of providing stability the roster has been in constant turmoil, much of it having to do with how difficult carmelo anthony is to play with, let alone build around.

So Stat was a humble, ungreedy soul who just took stupid Dolan's money. And promptly did sheehit for 3.5 out of 4 years. Compared to Melo's apples. Yes, I see your logic there.

Yes, and your incessant whining about efficiency and game passing and owner stupidity has a tremendous amount to do with the value of the pieces of oranges we gave away to get Carmelo, the greedy fool.

why are constantly peevish and uncivil? stoudemire got max money not because he was greedy but because dolan was desperate to get a name in new york city and stoudemire was in the right place at the right time. you can make a case for saying that we gave up only lee i suppose.

and nobody feels stat is a franchise talent, do they? so while dolan felt it necessary to overpay for damaged goods how does that translate to stoudemire being either humble or greedy? i liked the team we had starting out in 2010-2011 but i did not like felton much at all and i thought stat was too selfish and limited anyway. so he was a number two guy who got max money but did not cost the knicks human assets. had melo done the same thing that would have been acceptable.

if anything i have to believe that stoudemire was humiliated in the wake of the melo deal. and i felt that once he was paired with a real point guard he would have thrived. instead we acquire a player who is essentially redundant and stoudemire gets shoved aside and becomes immediately irrelevant. much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.

Are you kidding? What happened to Amare was what the doctors in Phoenix said would happen and the reason he isn't on the Suns. You also have to consider that D'Antoni rode Amare like he was Secretariat at the Center position and he wore down as the season went on. This is a new low though. Blaming Melo for Amare's physical breaking down.

melo isn't to blame for stoudemire breaking down that is preposterous. and neither is d'antoni responsible for stoudemire breaking down, that too is preposterous. you're playing games again.

stoudemire is responsible for stoudemire breaking down. coming to new york he knew how to do one thing great which is finish on a pick and roll-- provided he had a good point guard. instead we get felton. not having any ability to be a playmaker for others, and dealing with a third-rate felton even in a d'antoni system, he does the only other thing he thinks he is capable of: going one on three night after night. i knew it was baloney but people like you love when players go into this asinine beast mode. and yet you still think he saved the knicks. i think what he did was foolish-- he is responsible for breaking himself down.

the secretariat quote from d'antoni was in reference to jeremy lin.

to any student of the game it was clear that stoudemire nightly broke away from the system and succeeded in freezing out teammates, even as an inept felton was incapable of keeping others involved.

I agree but what was your point in posting this nonsense?

much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.[/quote]
If it was baloney why do you post such nonsense. Like your assessment of Melo's shoulder injury from what you saw on tv. Also, not sure where you are coming from with your 'people like me' comment. I am a fan and I do get excited during games. It is what is fun about being a fan. Again, don't post stuff likes its the truth and then react when you get called out on it. Keep it real. No need for backpedaling and fake outrage if you post the truth. Not interested in how it was baloney or hearing about your shoulder injuries make you an expert. Most guys that work out have had rotator cuff injuries. I have only encountered one that can diagnose the minimal impact of it on a basketball player from watching it on tv.

He rarely has any point. And he's spent 4 pages now not answering two simple questions, but wet-dreaming about make believe assets and draft picks and yoots that haven't panned out to be anything. Which somehow makes him a subject matter expert talking in circles above everyone's head.

It's okay.

Soon we'll read about Melo's greedy fool impact on the declining attendance at Bulgarian league games.

Its amazing how Melo gets blamed for everything around here. Blamed for the Knicks trade like he was the GM, blamed for Amare's decline like he's the doctor, blamed for Gallo's lack of growth like he's the trainer, blamed for Felton's problems like he's the dietitian, blamed for Lin like he's now a superstar on the Rockets. My favorite is how he was supposed to say no to an extension during a looming lockout so we could keep Gallo, chandler, and the great Moz. LOL this place is unreal.

I agree with everything you said about Melo and the modest value we sent to get him. Even so, assets are assets and I can't help but think that those guys could've been repackaged in another to get us a player we needed like CP3. That and draft picks was a far more compelling off than the one NOH originally got from LAL, and had it been made, I don't think it would've gotten nixed since it could have been marketed as moves for the future. I suppose we'll never know though.

The real mistake the Knicks made was waiving Corey Brewer when they did. Not only has he become a productive player but he could've been used as a sign and trade asset for Tyson Chandler, since Dallas wanted him all along anyway. That would've preserved our amnesty to use on Amar'e and allowed us to keep Billups' expiring contract to parlay into other moves. That one single move turned us from a team on the cusps of building a Dallas Mavericks-esque contender to being forced to present guys like Raymond Felton and Andrea Bargnani as franchise saviours. All because ****ing Donnie Walsh was butt buddies with Amare's agent Happy Walters (who was Corey's as well) and all because D'Antoni can't make use of a player without a jumpshot no matter how talented they are.

The problem with our package was Gallo and Chandler were both due to be paid the following year. Rebuilding teams wants 2 things: high draft picks and promising players on rookie contracts. Gallo and Chandler would have only offered a team one year at rookie cost and then due the money they are making now. It significantly lessens their value. And i agree 100% about Brewer, that was stupid to let him go for nothing. The Billups thing was unfortunately because of Stoudemire's decline. It wasn't a bad move at the time, just bad with what we know now. If anything, that hurt us the most. That as well as letting Lin and Fields walk as opposed to trading them sooner. People talk about losing assets for Melo, but Fields and Lin were assets that we got nothing for.

To be fair, Eric Gordon and Chris Kaman were expiring contracts that the Hornets got in return. In the initial trade, NOH accepted Lamar Odom (expirer), Luis Scola and Kevin Martin with no picks. All those guys had bloated contracts, were in their 30's and clearly passed their prime so I can't help but feel that the issues with our package were moot. Even in terms of value, it's hard to say that our package was lacking. Eric Gordon is better than Gallo but was he appreciably better? Wilson Chandler though was IMMENSELY better than Al Farouq Aminu. Landry Fields still had his hype and could've easily been the 10th pick of the draft that year (Austin Rivers). Timofey Mozgov had some nice games, including a 23 point and 17 rebound game against Detriot before he got traded to Denver, so I would've imagined that his stock would've been high. AND Chauncey Billups has always been better than Chris Kaman. I think you're underestimating this move but all I've got is conjecture at this point.

As for Lin and Fields, I wholeheartedly agree. After Lin got hurt, we should've looked to trade Fields immediately for a late 1st round pick/early 2nd round pick during the season. After all, he had put up some pretty good games playing at a quickened pace with Jeremy and without Melo. Even if we let him walk at season's end and only could pursue a sign and trade, that would've been a $5 million trade exception we could've used to get someone else, while preserving our Mid-Level Exception.

As for Jeremy, I still don't understand why we didn't sign and trade him in that deal the Rockets made with the Raptors for their 1st round pick. We should've walked away with Marcus Camby (sign and traded) and Toronto's pick (that became Steven Adams). Toronto should've still gotten Lowry and Houston should've gotten Lin. There was no excuse for us not to get something back considering the value he generated during the season, on and off the court; not to mention the leverage we had against Houston who had just missed out on Dwight Howard and had already committed to trade away both their PG's to clear cap space for him. We had the Rockets by the balls and we still screwed things up. But, we're dealing with the Knicks and have to accept a grain of ineptitude in everything that we do.

He keeps trying to mitigate what we gave up and it honestly is a pathetic attempt... Lets get down to results.. since the trade, the nuggets have had a better record than the knicks.. even till this very minute.. since chandler has been back, i think denver is 4-1...

I posted an article here a while back regarding gallo's value to the nuggets, they nuggs moved koufos and extened moz who has been playing solid ball and chandler is back and the nuggets have been better since he got healthy....

not sure what people look at when building a team, but I can tell by the way they value carmelo that they are more interested in NBA jams video style play than anything else.... classic example.. people will look at carmelo's stat line last night and see 34/15 and be like "wow"!!! he did his job.... yea, but what the stats don't show are the late rotations, the ridiculous heat check shots with guys open, and a host of other disgusting style basketball.. meanwhile, batum showed us how a SF who plays a complete, balanced game, elevates your team. He schooled the knicks last night.. jeez..

As I said, when you look at value a players value you have to accurately asses that player.. and we didn't do that with carmelo.. well walsh did, dolan didn't care... and in the end, what you see now is the inevitable IMO....

This article is a complete joke and a fail.. the writer clearly acknowledges that carmelo is a second tier star,a "robin", yet he doesn't address this point.. what team has ever traded as many assets as we have for a second tier star? where has that ever happened in the history of the NBA for such a player?

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

dk7th wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?

Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.

1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo is a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing exactly one 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.•
A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

first i don't compare apples to oranges. say what you wish about stoudemire but he came as a free agent and that means it was just dolan's money. moreover, dolan-- beyond the tacit mandate of the league to clean up his and isiah's mess by bringing in walsh-- drives the agenda for this team. a courageous, uncynical owner would have foregone the two-star approach and built patiently until a better situation came along. he had the option to do so but like most of the knick fanbase, he is an impatient dullard that prizes entertainment over winning.

building a winner requires patience and shrewdness. he lacks both but deep pockets keep you in the game. he is like a bad poker player who keeps replenishing his chips even if he is losing because he is willing to pay for being amused even as he is losing.

second, the writer is missing the obvious: the game has passed carmelo anthony by. it's a new era where efficiency is prized over volume and defense is in higher demand than ever. his analysis is therefore misleading let alone lazy.

instead of providing stability the roster has been in constant turmoil, much of it having to do with how difficult carmelo anthony is to play with, let alone build around.

So Stat was a humble, ungreedy soul who just took stupid Dolan's money. And promptly did sheehit for 3.5 out of 4 years. Compared to Melo's apples. Yes, I see your logic there.

Yes, and your incessant whining about efficiency and game passing and owner stupidity has a tremendous amount to do with the value of the pieces of oranges we gave away to get Carmelo, the greedy fool.

why are constantly peevish and uncivil? stoudemire got max money not because he was greedy but because dolan was desperate to get a name in new york city and stoudemire was in the right place at the right time. you can make a case for saying that we gave up only lee i suppose.

and nobody feels stat is a franchise talent, do they? so while dolan felt it necessary to overpay for damaged goods how does that translate to stoudemire being either humble or greedy? i liked the team we had starting out in 2010-2011 but i did not like felton much at all and i thought stat was too selfish and limited anyway. so he was a number two guy who got max money but did not cost the knicks human assets. had melo done the same thing that would have been acceptable.

if anything i have to believe that stoudemire was humiliated in the wake of the melo deal. and i felt that once he was paired with a real point guard he would have thrived. instead we acquire a player who is essentially redundant and stoudemire gets shoved aside and becomes immediately irrelevant. much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.

Are you kidding? What happened to Amare was what the doctors in Phoenix said would happen and the reason he isn't on the Suns. You also have to consider that D'Antoni rode Amare like he was Secretariat at the Center position and he wore down as the season went on. This is a new low though. Blaming Melo for Amare's physical breaking down.

melo isn't to blame for stoudemire breaking down that is preposterous. and neither is d'antoni responsible for stoudemire breaking down, that too is preposterous. you're playing games again.

stoudemire is responsible for stoudemire breaking down. coming to new york he knew how to do one thing great which is finish on a pick and roll-- provided he had a good point guard. instead we get felton. not having any ability to be a playmaker for others, and dealing with a third-rate felton even in a d'antoni system, he does the only other thing he thinks he is capable of: going one on three night after night. i knew it was baloney but people like you love when players go into this asinine beast mode. and yet you still think he saved the knicks. i think what he did was foolish-- he is responsible for breaking himself down.

the secretariat quote from d'antoni was in reference to jeremy lin.

to any student of the game it was clear that stoudemire nightly broke away from the system and succeeded in freezing out teammates, even as an inept felton was incapable of keeping others involved.

I agree but what was your point in posting this nonsense?

much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.[/quote]
If it was baloney why do you post such nonsense. Like your assessment of Melo's shoulder injury from what you saw on tv. Also, not sure where you are coming from with your 'people like me' comment. I am a fan and I do get excited during games. It is what is fun about being a fan. Again, don't post stuff likes its the truth and then react when you get called out on it. Keep it real. No need for backpedaling and fake outrage if you post the truth. Not interested in how it was baloney or hearing about your shoulder injuries make you an expert. Most guys that work out have had rotator cuff injuries. I have only encountered one that can diagnose the minimal impact of it on a basketball player from watching it on tv.

He rarely has any point. And he's spent 4 pages now not answering two simple questions, but wet-dreaming about make believe assets and draft picks and yoots that haven't panned out to be anything. Which somehow makes him a subject matter expert talking in circles above everyone's head.

It's okay.

Soon we'll read about Melo's greedy fool impact on the declining attendance at Bulgarian league games.

Its amazing how Melo gets blamed for everything around here. Blamed for the Knicks trade like he was the GM, blamed for Amare's decline like he's the doctor, blamed for Gallo's lack of growth like he's the trainer, blamed for Felton's problems like he's the dietitian, blamed for Lin like he's now a superstar on the Rockets. My favorite is how he was supposed to say no to an extension during a looming lockout so we could keep Gallo, chandler, and the great Moz. LOL this place is unreal.

I agree with everything you said about Melo and the modest value we sent to get him. Even so, assets are assets and I can't help but think that those guys could've been repackaged in another to get us a player we needed like CP3. That and draft picks was a far more compelling off than the one NOH originally got from LAL, and had it been made, I don't think it would've gotten nixed since it could have been marketed as moves for the future. I suppose we'll never know though.

The real mistake the Knicks made was waiving Corey Brewer when they did. Not only has he become a productive player but he could've been used as a sign and trade asset for Tyson Chandler, since Dallas wanted him all along anyway. That would've preserved our amnesty to use on Amar'e and allowed us to keep Billups' expiring contract to parlay into other moves. That one single move turned us from a team on the cusps of building a Dallas Mavericks-esque contender to being forced to present guys like Raymond Felton and Andrea Bargnani as franchise saviours. All because ****ing Donnie Walsh was butt buddies with Amare's agent Happy Walters (who was Corey's as well) and all because D'Antoni can't make use of a player without a jumpshot no matter how talented they are.

The problem with our package was Gallo and Chandler were both due to be paid the following year. Rebuilding teams wants 2 things: high draft picks and promising players on rookie contracts. Gallo and Chandler would have only offered a team one year at rookie cost and then due the money they are making now. It significantly lessens their value. And i agree 100% about Brewer, that was stupid to let him go for nothing. The Billups thing was unfortunately because of Stoudemire's decline. It wasn't a bad move at the time, just bad with what we know now. If anything, that hurt us the most. That as well as letting Lin and Fields walk as opposed to trading them sooner. People talk about losing assets for Melo, but Fields and Lin were assets that we got nothing for.

To be fair, Eric Gordon and Chris Kaman were expiring contracts that the Hornets got in return. In the initial trade, NOH accepted Lamar Odom (expirer), Luis Scola and Kevin Martin with no picks. All those guys had bloated contracts, were in their 30's and clearly passed their prime so I can't help but feel that the issues with our package were moot. Even in terms of value, it's hard to say that our package was lacking. Eric Gordon is better than Gallo but was he appreciably better? Wilson Chandler though was IMMENSELY better than Al Farouq Aminu. Landry Fields still had his hype and could've easily been the 10th pick of the draft that year (Austin Rivers). Timofey Mozgov had some nice games, including a 23 point and 17 rebound game against Detriot before he got traded to Denver, so I would've imagined that his stock would've been high. AND Chauncey Billups has always been better than Chris Kaman. I think you're underestimating this move but all I've got is conjecture at this point.

As for Lin and Fields, I wholeheartedly agree. After Lin got hurt, we should've looked to trade Fields immediately for a late 1st round pick/early 2nd round pick during the season. After all, he had put up some pretty good games playing at a quickened pace with Jeremy and without Melo. Even if we let him walk at season's end and only could pursue a sign and trade, that would've been a $5 million trade exception we could've used to get someone else, while preserving our Mid-Level Exception.

As for Jeremy, I still don't understand why we didn't sign and trade him in that deal the Rockets made with the Raptors for their 1st round pick. We should've walked away with Marcus Camby (sign and traded) and Toronto's pick (that became Steven Adams). Toronto should've still gotten Lowry and Houston should've gotten Lin. There was no excuse for us not to get something back considering the value he generated during the season, on and off the court; not to mention the leverage we had against Houston who had just missed out on Dwight Howard and had already committed to trade away both their PG's to clear cap space for him. We had the Rockets by the balls and we still screwed things up. But, we're dealing with the Knicks and have to accept a grain of ineptitude in everything that we do.

He keeps trying to mitigate what we gave up and it honestly is a pathetic attempt... Lets get down to results.. since the trade, the nuggets have had a better record than the knicks.. even till this very minute.. since chandler has been back, i think denver is 4-1...

I posted an article here a while back regarding gallo's value to the nuggets, they nuggs moved koufos and extened moz who has been playing solid ball and chandler is back and the nuggets have been better since he got healthy....

not sure what people look at when building a team, but I can tell by the way they value carmelo that they are more interested in NBA jams video style play than anything else.... classic example.. people will look at carmelo's stat line last night and see 34/15 and be like "wow"!!! he did his job.... yea, but what the stats don't show are the late rotations, the ridiculous heat check shots with guys open, and a host of other disgusting style basketball.. meanwhile, batum showed us how a SF who plays a complete, balanced game, elevates your team. He schooled the knicks last night.. jeez..

As I said, when you look at value a players value you have to accurately asses that player.. and we didn't do that with carmelo.. well walsh did, dolan didn't care... and in the end, what you see now is the inevitable IMO....

This article is a complete joke and a fail.. the writer clearly acknowledges that carmelo is a second tier star,a "robin", yet he doesn't address this point.. what team has ever traded as many assets as we have for a second tier star? where has that ever happened in the history of the NBA for such a player?

My argument has never been that we gave up too much for Melo. The fact of the matter is that he is a franchise player and worth a lot more. My argument is that it would've been in his and our better interest if he signed with us outright and allowed for us to parlay those assets into Chris Paul, who s had a few years to go before he became a free agent. At the end of the day, we got the better end of the exchange with Denver but the move was a bit myopic. Melo has no help at the moment but he really has no one to blame but himself for that; LeBron and Wade took a bit of a hit financially, why couldn't he?

NardDogNation wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

dk7th wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?

Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.

1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo is a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing exactly one 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.•
A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

first i don't compare apples to oranges. say what you wish about stoudemire but he came as a free agent and that means it was just dolan's money. moreover, dolan-- beyond the tacit mandate of the league to clean up his and isiah's mess by bringing in walsh-- drives the agenda for this team. a courageous, uncynical owner would have foregone the two-star approach and built patiently until a better situation came along. he had the option to do so but like most of the knick fanbase, he is an impatient dullard that prizes entertainment over winning.

building a winner requires patience and shrewdness. he lacks both but deep pockets keep you in the game. he is like a bad poker player who keeps replenishing his chips even if he is losing because he is willing to pay for being amused even as he is losing.

second, the writer is missing the obvious: the game has passed carmelo anthony by. it's a new era where efficiency is prized over volume and defense is in higher demand than ever. his analysis is therefore misleading let alone lazy.

instead of providing stability the roster has been in constant turmoil, much of it having to do with how difficult carmelo anthony is to play with, let alone build around.

So Stat was a humble, ungreedy soul who just took stupid Dolan's money. And promptly did sheehit for 3.5 out of 4 years. Compared to Melo's apples. Yes, I see your logic there.

Yes, and your incessant whining about efficiency and game passing and owner stupidity has a tremendous amount to do with the value of the pieces of oranges we gave away to get Carmelo, the greedy fool.

why are constantly peevish and uncivil? stoudemire got max money not because he was greedy but because dolan was desperate to get a name in new york city and stoudemire was in the right place at the right time. you can make a case for saying that we gave up only lee i suppose.

and nobody feels stat is a franchise talent, do they? so while dolan felt it necessary to overpay for damaged goods how does that translate to stoudemire being either humble or greedy? i liked the team we had starting out in 2010-2011 but i did not like felton much at all and i thought stat was too selfish and limited anyway. so he was a number two guy who got max money but did not cost the knicks human assets. had melo done the same thing that would have been acceptable.

if anything i have to believe that stoudemire was humiliated in the wake of the melo deal. and i felt that once he was paired with a real point guard he would have thrived. instead we acquire a player who is essentially redundant and stoudemire gets shoved aside and becomes immediately irrelevant. much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.

Are you kidding? What happened to Amare was what the doctors in Phoenix said would happen and the reason he isn't on the Suns. You also have to consider that D'Antoni rode Amare like he was Secretariat at the Center position and he wore down as the season went on. This is a new low though. Blaming Melo for Amare's physical breaking down.

melo isn't to blame for stoudemire breaking down that is preposterous. and neither is d'antoni responsible for stoudemire breaking down, that too is preposterous. you're playing games again.

stoudemire is responsible for stoudemire breaking down. coming to new york he knew how to do one thing great which is finish on a pick and roll-- provided he had a good point guard. instead we get felton. not having any ability to be a playmaker for others, and dealing with a third-rate felton even in a d'antoni system, he does the only other thing he thinks he is capable of: going one on three night after night. i knew it was baloney but people like you love when players go into this asinine beast mode. and yet you still think he saved the knicks. i think what he did was foolish-- he is responsible for breaking himself down.

the secretariat quote from d'antoni was in reference to jeremy lin.

to any student of the game it was clear that stoudemire nightly broke away from the system and succeeded in freezing out teammates, even as an inept felton was incapable of keeping others involved.

I agree but what was your point in posting this nonsense?

much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.[/quote]
If it was baloney why do you post such nonsense. Like your assessment of Melo's shoulder injury from what you saw on tv. Also, not sure where you are coming from with your 'people like me' comment. I am a fan and I do get excited during games. It is what is fun about being a fan. Again, don't post stuff likes its the truth and then react when you get called out on it. Keep it real. No need for backpedaling and fake outrage if you post the truth. Not interested in how it was baloney or hearing about your shoulder injuries make you an expert. Most guys that work out have had rotator cuff injuries. I have only encountered one that can diagnose the minimal impact of it on a basketball player from watching it on tv.

He rarely has any point. And he's spent 4 pages now not answering two simple questions, but wet-dreaming about make believe assets and draft picks and yoots that haven't panned out to be anything. Which somehow makes him a subject matter expert talking in circles above everyone's head.

It's okay.

Soon we'll read about Melo's greedy fool impact on the declining attendance at Bulgarian league games.

Its amazing how Melo gets blamed for everything around here. Blamed for the Knicks trade like he was the GM, blamed for Amare's decline like he's the doctor, blamed for Gallo's lack of growth like he's the trainer, blamed for Felton's problems like he's the dietitian, blamed for Lin like he's now a superstar on the Rockets. My favorite is how he was supposed to say no to an extension during a looming lockout so we could keep Gallo, chandler, and the great Moz. LOL this place is unreal.

I agree with everything you said about Melo and the modest value we sent to get him. Even so, assets are assets and I can't help but think that those guys could've been repackaged in another to get us a player we needed like CP3. That and draft picks was a far more compelling off than the one NOH originally got from LAL, and had it been made, I don't think it would've gotten nixed since it could have been marketed as moves for the future. I suppose we'll never know though.

The real mistake the Knicks made was waiving Corey Brewer when they did. Not only has he become a productive player but he could've been used as a sign and trade asset for Tyson Chandler, since Dallas wanted him all along anyway. That would've preserved our amnesty to use on Amar'e and allowed us to keep Billups' expiring contract to parlay into other moves. That one single move turned us from a team on the cusps of building a Dallas Mavericks-esque contender to being forced to present guys like Raymond Felton and Andrea Bargnani as franchise saviours. All because ****ing Donnie Walsh was butt buddies with Amare's agent Happy Walters (who was Corey's as well) and all because D'Antoni can't make use of a player without a jumpshot no matter how talented they are.

The problem with our package was Gallo and Chandler were both due to be paid the following year. Rebuilding teams wants 2 things: high draft picks and promising players on rookie contracts. Gallo and Chandler would have only offered a team one year at rookie cost and then due the money they are making now. It significantly lessens their value. And i agree 100% about Brewer, that was stupid to let him go for nothing. The Billups thing was unfortunately because of Stoudemire's decline. It wasn't a bad move at the time, just bad with what we know now. If anything, that hurt us the most. That as well as letting Lin and Fields walk as opposed to trading them sooner. People talk about losing assets for Melo, but Fields and Lin were assets that we got nothing for.

To be fair, Eric Gordon and Chris Kaman were expiring contracts that the Hornets got in return. In the initial trade, NOH accepted Lamar Odom (expirer), Luis Scola and Kevin Martin with no picks. All those guys had bloated contracts, were in their 30's and clearly passed their prime so I can't help but feel that the issues with our package were moot. Even in terms of value, it's hard to say that our package was lacking. Eric Gordon is better than Gallo but was he appreciably better? Wilson Chandler though was IMMENSELY better than Al Farouq Aminu. Landry Fields still had his hype and could've easily been the 10th pick of the draft that year (Austin Rivers). Timofey Mozgov had some nice games, including a 23 point and 17 rebound game against Detriot before he got traded to Denver, so I would've imagined that his stock would've been high. AND Chauncey Billups has always been better than Chris Kaman. I think you're underestimating this move but all I've got is conjecture at this point.

As for Lin and Fields, I wholeheartedly agree. After Lin got hurt, we should've looked to trade Fields immediately for a late 1st round pick/early 2nd round pick during the season. After all, he had put up some pretty good games playing at a quickened pace with Jeremy and without Melo. Even if we let him walk at season's end and only could pursue a sign and trade, that would've been a $5 million trade exception we could've used to get someone else, while preserving our Mid-Level Exception.

As for Jeremy, I still don't understand why we didn't sign and trade him in that deal the Rockets made with the Raptors for their 1st round pick. We should've walked away with Marcus Camby (sign and traded) and Toronto's pick (that became Steven Adams). Toronto should've still gotten Lowry and Houston should've gotten Lin. There was no excuse for us not to get something back considering the value he generated during the season, on and off the court; not to mention the leverage we had against Houston who had just missed out on Dwight Howard and had already committed to trade away both their PG's to clear cap space for him. We had the Rockets by the balls and we still screwed things up. But, we're dealing with the Knicks and have to accept a grain of ineptitude in everything that we do.

He keeps trying to mitigate what we gave up and it honestly is a pathetic attempt... Lets get down to results.. since the trade, the nuggets have had a better record than the knicks.. even till this very minute.. since chandler has been back, i think denver is 4-1...

I posted an article here a while back regarding gallo's value to the nuggets, they nuggs moved koufos and extened moz who has been playing solid ball and chandler is back and the nuggets have been better since he got healthy....

not sure what people look at when building a team, but I can tell by the way they value carmelo that they are more interested in NBA jams video style play than anything else.... classic example.. people will look at carmelo's stat line last night and see 34/15 and be like "wow"!!! he did his job.... yea, but what the stats don't show are the late rotations, the ridiculous heat check shots with guys open, and a host of other disgusting style basketball.. meanwhile, batum showed us how a SF who plays a complete, balanced game, elevates your team. He schooled the knicks last night.. jeez..

As I said, when you look at value a players value you have to accurately asses that player.. and we didn't do that with carmelo.. well walsh did, dolan didn't care... and in the end, what you see now is the inevitable IMO....

This article is a complete joke and a fail.. the writer clearly acknowledges that carmelo is a second tier star,a "robin", yet he doesn't address this point.. what team has ever traded as many assets as we have for a second tier star? where has that ever happened in the history of the NBA for such a player?

Yet since the trade the Knicks have been more successful in the playoffs. Dude you can justify it to yourself all day you want, but in the end we didn't give much in comparison to what was offered and agreed upon for Melo by other teams. Had he said he would accept an extension anywhere, we would not have him right now and thats a fact. While that would make you very happy, it has to make you realize that his value around the league was much higher than what we were offering. If we did a poor job accessing is value, then so did many other teams in the league. I'm not going to get into that topic with you of what he's worth, because clearly you think you are smarter than most GMs and owners, but is value is what others are willing to pay. For NJ that was Favors (#3 pick) and 4 first round picks. And who knows what other deals would have been on the table even better than that if he said he would sign anywhere else.

+1

+100000000000 He's actually stated this on occasion. For real.

tkf will tell you the regular season doesn't matter when he's trashing Melo, but then tell you the regular season is important when he's praising the Nuggets.

He's funny now like that.

NardDogNation wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

dk7th wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?

Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.

1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo is a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing exactly one 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.•
A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

first i don't compare apples to oranges. say what you wish about stoudemire but he came as a free agent and that means it was just dolan's money. moreover, dolan-- beyond the tacit mandate of the league to clean up his and isiah's mess by bringing in walsh-- drives the agenda for this team. a courageous, uncynical owner would have foregone the two-star approach and built patiently until a better situation came along. he had the option to do so but like most of the knick fanbase, he is an impatient dullard that prizes entertainment over winning.

building a winner requires patience and shrewdness. he lacks both but deep pockets keep you in the game. he is like a bad poker player who keeps replenishing his chips even if he is losing because he is willing to pay for being amused even as he is losing.

second, the writer is missing the obvious: the game has passed carmelo anthony by. it's a new era where efficiency is prized over volume and defense is in higher demand than ever. his analysis is therefore misleading let alone lazy.

instead of providing stability the roster has been in constant turmoil, much of it having to do with how difficult carmelo anthony is to play with, let alone build around.

So Stat was a humble, ungreedy soul who just took stupid Dolan's money. And promptly did sheehit for 3.5 out of 4 years. Compared to Melo's apples. Yes, I see your logic there.

Yes, and your incessant whining about efficiency and game passing and owner stupidity has a tremendous amount to do with the value of the pieces of oranges we gave away to get Carmelo, the greedy fool.

why are constantly peevish and uncivil? stoudemire got max money not because he was greedy but because dolan was desperate to get a name in new york city and stoudemire was in the right place at the right time. you can make a case for saying that we gave up only lee i suppose.

and nobody feels stat is a franchise talent, do they? so while dolan felt it necessary to overpay for damaged goods how does that translate to stoudemire being either humble or greedy? i liked the team we had starting out in 2010-2011 but i did not like felton much at all and i thought stat was too selfish and limited anyway. so he was a number two guy who got max money but did not cost the knicks human assets. had melo done the same thing that would have been acceptable.

if anything i have to believe that stoudemire was humiliated in the wake of the melo deal. and i felt that once he was paired with a real point guard he would have thrived. instead we acquire a player who is essentially redundant and stoudemire gets shoved aside and becomes immediately irrelevant. much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.

Are you kidding? What happened to Amare was what the doctors in Phoenix said would happen and the reason he isn't on the Suns. You also have to consider that D'Antoni rode Amare like he was Secretariat at the Center position and he wore down as the season went on. This is a new low though. Blaming Melo for Amare's physical breaking down.

melo isn't to blame for stoudemire breaking down that is preposterous. and neither is d'antoni responsible for stoudemire breaking down, that too is preposterous. you're playing games again.

stoudemire is responsible for stoudemire breaking down. coming to new york he knew how to do one thing great which is finish on a pick and roll-- provided he had a good point guard. instead we get felton. not having any ability to be a playmaker for others, and dealing with a third-rate felton even in a d'antoni system, he does the only other thing he thinks he is capable of: going one on three night after night. i knew it was baloney but people like you love when players go into this asinine beast mode. and yet you still think he saved the knicks. i think what he did was foolish-- he is responsible for breaking himself down.

the secretariat quote from d'antoni was in reference to jeremy lin.

to any student of the game it was clear that stoudemire nightly broke away from the system and succeeded in freezing out teammates, even as an inept felton was incapable of keeping others involved.

I agree but what was your point in posting this nonsense?

much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.[/quote]
If it was baloney why do you post such nonsense. Like your assessment of Melo's shoulder injury from what you saw on tv. Also, not sure where you are coming from with your 'people like me' comment. I am a fan and I do get excited during games. It is what is fun about being a fan. Again, don't post stuff likes its the truth and then react when you get called out on it. Keep it real. No need for backpedaling and fake outrage if you post the truth. Not interested in how it was baloney or hearing about your shoulder injuries make you an expert. Most guys that work out have had rotator cuff injuries. I have only encountered one that can diagnose the minimal impact of it on a basketball player from watching it on tv.

He rarely has any point. And he's spent 4 pages now not answering two simple questions, but wet-dreaming about make believe assets and draft picks and yoots that haven't panned out to be anything. Which somehow makes him a subject matter expert talking in circles above everyone's head.

It's okay.

Soon we'll read about Melo's greedy fool impact on the declining attendance at Bulgarian league games.

Its amazing how Melo gets blamed for everything around here. Blamed for the Knicks trade like he was the GM, blamed for Amare's decline like he's the doctor, blamed for Gallo's lack of growth like he's the trainer, blamed for Felton's problems like he's the dietitian, blamed for Lin like he's now a superstar on the Rockets. My favorite is how he was supposed to say no to an extension during a looming lockout so we could keep Gallo, chandler, and the great Moz. LOL this place is unreal.

I agree with everything you said about Melo and the modest value we sent to get him. Even so, assets are assets and I can't help but think that those guys could've been repackaged in another to get us a player we needed like CP3. That and draft picks was a far more compelling off than the one NOH originally got from LAL, and had it been made, I don't think it would've gotten nixed since it could have been marketed as moves for the future. I suppose we'll never know though.

The real mistake the Knicks made was waiving Corey Brewer when they did. Not only has he become a productive player but he could've been used as a sign and trade asset for Tyson Chandler, since Dallas wanted him all along anyway. That would've preserved our amnesty to use on Amar'e and allowed us to keep Billups' expiring contract to parlay into other moves. That one single move turned us from a team on the cusps of building a Dallas Mavericks-esque contender to being forced to present guys like Raymond Felton and Andrea Bargnani as franchise saviours. All because ****ing Donnie Walsh was butt buddies with Amare's agent Happy Walters (who was Corey's as well) and all because D'Antoni can't make use of a player without a jumpshot no matter how talented they are.

The problem with our package was Gallo and Chandler were both due to be paid the following year. Rebuilding teams wants 2 things: high draft picks and promising players on rookie contracts. Gallo and Chandler would have only offered a team one year at rookie cost and then due the money they are making now. It significantly lessens their value. And i agree 100% about Brewer, that was stupid to let him go for nothing. The Billups thing was unfortunately because of Stoudemire's decline. It wasn't a bad move at the time, just bad with what we know now. If anything, that hurt us the most. That as well as letting Lin and Fields walk as opposed to trading them sooner. People talk about losing assets for Melo, but Fields and Lin were assets that we got nothing for.

To be fair, Eric Gordon and Chris Kaman were expiring contracts that the Hornets got in return. In the initial trade, NOH accepted Lamar Odom (expirer), Luis Scola and Kevin Martin with no picks. All those guys had bloated contracts, were in their 30's and clearly passed their prime so I can't help but feel that the issues with our package were moot. Even in terms of value, it's hard to say that our package was lacking. Eric Gordon is better than Gallo but was he appreciably better? Wilson Chandler though was IMMENSELY better than Al Farouq Aminu. Landry Fields still had his hype and could've easily been the 10th pick of the draft that year (Austin Rivers). Timofey Mozgov had some nice games, including a 23 point and 17 rebound game against Detriot before he got traded to Denver, so I would've imagined that his stock would've been high. AND Chauncey Billups has always been better than Chris Kaman. I think you're underestimating this move but all I've got is conjecture at this point.

As for Lin and Fields, I wholeheartedly agree. After Lin got hurt, we should've looked to trade Fields immediately for a late 1st round pick/early 2nd round pick during the season. After all, he had put up some pretty good games playing at a quickened pace with Jeremy and without Melo. Even if we let him walk at season's end and only could pursue a sign and trade, that would've been a $5 million trade exception we could've used to get someone else, while preserving our Mid-Level Exception.

As for Jeremy, I still don't understand why we didn't sign and trade him in that deal the Rockets made with the Raptors for their 1st round pick. We should've walked away with Marcus Camby (sign and traded) and Toronto's pick (that became Steven Adams). Toronto should've still gotten Lowry and Houston should've gotten Lin. There was no excuse for us not to get something back considering the value he generated during the season, on and off the court; not to mention the leverage we had against Houston who had just missed out on Dwight Howard and had already committed to trade away both their PG's to clear cap space for him. We had the Rockets by the balls and we still screwed things up. But, we're dealing with the Knicks and have to accept a grain of ineptitude in everything that we do.

He keeps trying to mitigate what we gave up and it honestly is a pathetic attempt... Lets get down to results.. since the trade, the nuggets have had a better record than the knicks.. even till this very minute.. since chandler has been back, i think denver is 4-1...

I posted an article here a while back regarding gallo's value to the nuggets, they nuggs moved koufos and extened moz who has been playing solid ball and chandler is back and the nuggets have been better since he got healthy....

not sure what people look at when building a team, but I can tell by the way they value carmelo that they are more interested in NBA jams video style play than anything else.... classic example.. people will look at carmelo's stat line last night and see 34/15 and be like "wow"!!! he did his job.... yea, but what the stats don't show are the late rotations, the ridiculous heat check shots with guys open, and a host of other disgusting style basketball.. meanwhile, batum showed us how a SF who plays a complete, balanced game, elevates your team. He schooled the knicks last night.. jeez..

As I said, when you look at value a players value you have to accurately asses that player.. and we didn't do that with carmelo.. well walsh did, dolan didn't care... and in the end, what you see now is the inevitable IMO....

This article is a complete joke and a fail.. the writer clearly acknowledges that carmelo is a second tier star,a "robin", yet he doesn't address this point.. what team has ever traded as many assets as we have for a second tier star? where has that ever happened in the history of the NBA for such a player?

Yet since the trade the Knicks have been more successful in the playoffs. Dude you can justify it to yourself all day you want, but in the end we didn't give much in comparison to what was offered and agreed upon for Melo by other teams. Had he said he would accept an extension anywhere, we would not have him right now and thats a fact. While that would make you very happy, it has to make you realize that his value around the league was much higher than what we were offering. If we did a poor job accessing is value, then so did many other teams in the league. I'm not going to get into that topic with you of what he's worth, because clearly you think you are smarter than most GMs and owners, but is value is what others are willing to pay. For NJ that was Favors (#3 pick) and 4 first round picks. And who knows what other deals would have been on the table even better than that if he said he would sign anywhere else.

+1

-1

knicks have advanced just last year, but remember we made this trade not to just beat a depleated boston team.. IMO it is a failure.. I can't believe you cosign the knicks have been more sucessful in the playoffs.. LOL.. for real?

Ok, so let me ask this. looking at the position we are in now.. no picks, one of the worst teams in the leaugue..... how has this been a win for us? how?????????

we are in worse shape than any team in the NBA.. I don't know a team in worse shape...

this trade has been a colossal fail...

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

dk7th wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?

Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.

1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo is a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing exactly one 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.•
A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

first i don't compare apples to oranges. say what you wish about stoudemire but he came as a free agent and that means it was just dolan's money. moreover, dolan-- beyond the tacit mandate of the league to clean up his and isiah's mess by bringing in walsh-- drives the agenda for this team. a courageous, uncynical owner would have foregone the two-star approach and built patiently until a better situation came along. he had the option to do so but like most of the knick fanbase, he is an impatient dullard that prizes entertainment over winning.

building a winner requires patience and shrewdness. he lacks both but deep pockets keep you in the game. he is like a bad poker player who keeps replenishing his chips even if he is losing because he is willing to pay for being amused even as he is losing.

second, the writer is missing the obvious: the game has passed carmelo anthony by. it's a new era where efficiency is prized over volume and defense is in higher demand than ever. his analysis is therefore misleading let alone lazy.

instead of providing stability the roster has been in constant turmoil, much of it having to do with how difficult carmelo anthony is to play with, let alone build around.

So Stat was a humble, ungreedy soul who just took stupid Dolan's money. And promptly did sheehit for 3.5 out of 4 years. Compared to Melo's apples. Yes, I see your logic there.

Yes, and your incessant whining about efficiency and game passing and owner stupidity has a tremendous amount to do with the value of the pieces of oranges we gave away to get Carmelo, the greedy fool.

why are constantly peevish and uncivil? stoudemire got max money not because he was greedy but because dolan was desperate to get a name in new york city and stoudemire was in the right place at the right time. you can make a case for saying that we gave up only lee i suppose.

and nobody feels stat is a franchise talent, do they? so while dolan felt it necessary to overpay for damaged goods how does that translate to stoudemire being either humble or greedy? i liked the team we had starting out in 2010-2011 but i did not like felton much at all and i thought stat was too selfish and limited anyway. so he was a number two guy who got max money but did not cost the knicks human assets. had melo done the same thing that would have been acceptable.

if anything i have to believe that stoudemire was humiliated in the wake of the melo deal. and i felt that once he was paired with a real point guard he would have thrived. instead we acquire a player who is essentially redundant and stoudemire gets shoved aside and becomes immediately irrelevant. much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.

Are you kidding? What happened to Amare was what the doctors in Phoenix said would happen and the reason he isn't on the Suns. You also have to consider that D'Antoni rode Amare like he was Secretariat at the Center position and he wore down as the season went on. This is a new low though. Blaming Melo for Amare's physical breaking down.

melo isn't to blame for stoudemire breaking down that is preposterous. and neither is d'antoni responsible for stoudemire breaking down, that too is preposterous. you're playing games again.

stoudemire is responsible for stoudemire breaking down. coming to new york he knew how to do one thing great which is finish on a pick and roll-- provided he had a good point guard. instead we get felton. not having any ability to be a playmaker for others, and dealing with a third-rate felton even in a d'antoni system, he does the only other thing he thinks he is capable of: going one on three night after night. i knew it was baloney but people like you love when players go into this asinine beast mode. and yet you still think he saved the knicks. i think what he did was foolish-- he is responsible for breaking himself down.

the secretariat quote from d'antoni was in reference to jeremy lin.

to any student of the game it was clear that stoudemire nightly broke away from the system and succeeded in freezing out teammates, even as an inept felton was incapable of keeping others involved.

I agree but what was your point in posting this nonsense?

much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.[/quote]
If it was baloney why do you post such nonsense. Like your assessment of Melo's shoulder injury from what you saw on tv. Also, not sure where you are coming from with your 'people like me' comment. I am a fan and I do get excited during games. It is what is fun about being a fan. Again, don't post stuff likes its the truth and then react when you get called out on it. Keep it real. No need for backpedaling and fake outrage if you post the truth. Not interested in how it was baloney or hearing about your shoulder injuries make you an expert. Most guys that work out have had rotator cuff injuries. I have only encountered one that can diagnose the minimal impact of it on a basketball player from watching it on tv.

He rarely has any point. And he's spent 4 pages now not answering two simple questions, but wet-dreaming about make believe assets and draft picks and yoots that haven't panned out to be anything. Which somehow makes him a subject matter expert talking in circles above everyone's head.

It's okay.

Soon we'll read about Melo's greedy fool impact on the declining attendance at Bulgarian league games.

Its amazing how Melo gets blamed for everything around here. Blamed for the Knicks trade like he was the GM, blamed for Amare's decline like he's the doctor, blamed for Gallo's lack of growth like he's the trainer, blamed for Felton's problems like he's the dietitian, blamed for Lin like he's now a superstar on the Rockets. My favorite is how he was supposed to say no to an extension during a looming lockout so we could keep Gallo, chandler, and the great Moz. LOL this place is unreal.

I agree with everything you said about Melo and the modest value we sent to get him. Even so, assets are assets and I can't help but think that those guys could've been repackaged in another to get us a player we needed like CP3. That and draft picks was a far more compelling off than the one NOH originally got from LAL, and had it been made, I don't think it would've gotten nixed since it could have been marketed as moves for the future. I suppose we'll never know though.

The real mistake the Knicks made was waiving Corey Brewer when they did. Not only has he become a productive player but he could've been used as a sign and trade asset for Tyson Chandler, since Dallas wanted him all along anyway. That would've preserved our amnesty to use on Amar'e and allowed us to keep Billups' expiring contract to parlay into other moves. That one single move turned us from a team on the cusps of building a Dallas Mavericks-esque contender to being forced to present guys like Raymond Felton and Andrea Bargnani as franchise saviours. All because ****ing Donnie Walsh was butt buddies with Amare's agent Happy Walters (who was Corey's as well) and all because D'Antoni can't make use of a player without a jumpshot no matter how talented they are.

The problem with our package was Gallo and Chandler were both due to be paid the following year. Rebuilding teams wants 2 things: high draft picks and promising players on rookie contracts. Gallo and Chandler would have only offered a team one year at rookie cost and then due the money they are making now. It significantly lessens their value. And i agree 100% about Brewer, that was stupid to let him go for nothing. The Billups thing was unfortunately because of Stoudemire's decline. It wasn't a bad move at the time, just bad with what we know now. If anything, that hurt us the most. That as well as letting Lin and Fields walk as opposed to trading them sooner. People talk about losing assets for Melo, but Fields and Lin were assets that we got nothing for.

To be fair, Eric Gordon and Chris Kaman were expiring contracts that the Hornets got in return. In the initial trade, NOH accepted Lamar Odom (expirer), Luis Scola and Kevin Martin with no picks. All those guys had bloated contracts, were in their 30's and clearly passed their prime so I can't help but feel that the issues with our package were moot. Even in terms of value, it's hard to say that our package was lacking. Eric Gordon is better than Gallo but was he appreciably better? Wilson Chandler though was IMMENSELY better than Al Farouq Aminu. Landry Fields still had his hype and could've easily been the 10th pick of the draft that year (Austin Rivers). Timofey Mozgov had some nice games, including a 23 point and 17 rebound game against Detriot before he got traded to Denver, so I would've imagined that his stock would've been high. AND Chauncey Billups has always been better than Chris Kaman. I think you're underestimating this move but all I've got is conjecture at this point.

As for Lin and Fields, I wholeheartedly agree. After Lin got hurt, we should've looked to trade Fields immediately for a late 1st round pick/early 2nd round pick during the season. After all, he had put up some pretty good games playing at a quickened pace with Jeremy and without Melo. Even if we let him walk at season's end and only could pursue a sign and trade, that would've been a $5 million trade exception we could've used to get someone else, while preserving our Mid-Level Exception.

As for Jeremy, I still don't understand why we didn't sign and trade him in that deal the Rockets made with the Raptors for their 1st round pick. We should've walked away with Marcus Camby (sign and traded) and Toronto's pick (that became Steven Adams). Toronto should've still gotten Lowry and Houston should've gotten Lin. There was no excuse for us not to get something back considering the value he generated during the season, on and off the court; not to mention the leverage we had against Houston who had just missed out on Dwight Howard and had already committed to trade away both their PG's to clear cap space for him. We had the Rockets by the balls and we still screwed things up. But, we're dealing with the Knicks and have to accept a grain of ineptitude in everything that we do.

He keeps trying to mitigate what we gave up and it honestly is a pathetic attempt... Lets get down to results.. since the trade, the nuggets have had a better record than the knicks.. even till this very minute.. since chandler has been back, i think denver is 4-1...

I posted an article here a while back regarding gallo's value to the nuggets, they nuggs moved koufos and extened moz who has been playing solid ball and chandler is back and the nuggets have been better since he got healthy....

not sure what people look at when building a team, but I can tell by the way they value carmelo that they are more interested in NBA jams video style play than anything else.... classic example.. people will look at carmelo's stat line last night and see 34/15 and be like "wow"!!! he did his job.... yea, but what the stats don't show are the late rotations, the ridiculous heat check shots with guys open, and a host of other disgusting style basketball.. meanwhile, batum showed us how a SF who plays a complete, balanced game, elevates your team. He schooled the knicks last night.. jeez..

As I said, when you look at value a players value you have to accurately asses that player.. and we didn't do that with carmelo.. well walsh did, dolan didn't care... and in the end, what you see now is the inevitable IMO....

This article is a complete joke and a fail.. the writer clearly acknowledges that carmelo is a second tier star,a "robin", yet he doesn't address this point.. what team has ever traded as many assets as we have for a second tier star? where has that ever happened in the history of the NBA for such a player?

Yet since the trade the Knicks have been more successful in the playoffs. Dude you can justify it to yourself all day you want, but in the end we didn't give much in comparison to what was offered and agreed upon for Melo by other teams. Had he said he would accept an extension anywhere, we would not have him right now and thats a fact. While that would make you very happy, it has to make you realize that his value around the league was much higher than what we were offering. If we did a poor job accessing is value, then so did many other teams in the league. I'm not going to get into that topic with you of what he's worth, because clearly you think you are smarter than most GMs and owners, but is value is what others are willing to pay. For NJ that was Favors (#3 pick) and 4 first round picks. And who knows what other deals would have been on the table even better than that if he said he would sign anywhere else.

+1

+100000000000 He's actually stated this on occasion. For real.

tkf will tell you the regular season doesn't matter when he's trashing Melo, but then tell you the regular season is important when he's praising the Nuggets.

He's funny now like that.

regular season matters for teams like denver... knicks are a win now team.... we suck, we don't win now.. so it is a fail!!!

knicks are 3-10, we are closer to the jazz than the sixers...

you are funny like that... LOL

are you that dense that you can't see that? do you actually think the knicks are better than denver? this trash we are seeing?

Are the knicks set up to be better than denver? NO

we lost...

we didn't do **** in the playoffs!!!!!!!!!!! are you nuts! damn....smh..LOL

the end..

jrodmc wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

dk7th wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:this piece is incoherent garbage. awful. is he getting paid?!?

Not sure why you would say that. Do you think Melo and the Knicks don't succeed in a three star system where Melo is the number 2 guy? Do you disagree with the point that guys mature and become more of a team player as they get older and understand that they may need to change their game to compliment other stars to win? If so I am going to say that I am leaning towards Doc Rivers opinion based on his knowledge of the game as a player and a coach.

assuming everything you read here is true then the conclusion is that melo is a greedy fool for coming to new york to be numero uno. he is also being intellectually dishonest when he uses empty calorie statistics to support his opinion on the evaluation of players mentioned. melo has value but the price paid in salary and assets was far more than whatever value he brings.

1) One, how do you read this and conclude that Melo is a greedy fool for coming to New York? Was Stat a greedy fool for coming to NY and providing exactly one 1/2 of a max contract regular season?

2) And exactly what wholesome, nutritous statistics would you provide to offset these:

The Knicks gave up a lot of replaceable role players to acquire Anthony:
• Danilo Gallinari, who has averaged 15.5 points and shot 41.6 percent from the field in 128 games with the Nuggets. He sustained a torn ACL last April.
• Raymond Felton, who is back with the Knicks after disappointing seasons with the Nuggets and Trail Blazers.
• Wilson Chandler, who has averaged 12.3 points in 77 games with Denver.
• Timofey Mozgov, the "deal-breaker," who has been DNP for more than 40 percent of his games as a Nugget, and has averaged 4.7 points in 13 minutes when he has played.
• Eddy Curry, who has played 108 minutes since the trade.
• Anthony Randolph, who has averaged 6.9 points with two teams since the trade.
• Two second-round picks that turned into Quincy Miller and Romero Osby, who between them have played a total of 27 NBA minutes.•
A first-round pick in the 2014 draft, which may turn out to be the most valuable piece surrendered by New York.
Not only did the Knicks receive Anthony, but they also acquired Chauncey Billups, whose contract (via amnesty) enabled them to land Tyson Chandler. So they were able to exchange those role players (whose value had suddenly increased thanks to coach Mike D'Antoni's offensive system) for one of the NBA's most prolific scorers and a championship center.

And don't forget, while you type your response, keep saying "57 regular season wins and never out of the first round".

first i don't compare apples to oranges. say what you wish about stoudemire but he came as a free agent and that means it was just dolan's money. moreover, dolan-- beyond the tacit mandate of the league to clean up his and isiah's mess by bringing in walsh-- drives the agenda for this team. a courageous, uncynical owner would have foregone the two-star approach and built patiently until a better situation came along. he had the option to do so but like most of the knick fanbase, he is an impatient dullard that prizes entertainment over winning.

building a winner requires patience and shrewdness. he lacks both but deep pockets keep you in the game. he is like a bad poker player who keeps replenishing his chips even if he is losing because he is willing to pay for being amused even as he is losing.

second, the writer is missing the obvious: the game has passed carmelo anthony by. it's a new era where efficiency is prized over volume and defense is in higher demand than ever. his analysis is therefore misleading let alone lazy.

instead of providing stability the roster has been in constant turmoil, much of it having to do with how difficult carmelo anthony is to play with, let alone build around.

So Stat was a humble, ungreedy soul who just took stupid Dolan's money. And promptly did sheehit for 3.5 out of 4 years. Compared to Melo's apples. Yes, I see your logic there.

Yes, and your incessant whining about efficiency and game passing and owner stupidity has a tremendous amount to do with the value of the pieces of oranges we gave away to get Carmelo, the greedy fool.

why are constantly peevish and uncivil? stoudemire got max money not because he was greedy but because dolan was desperate to get a name in new york city and stoudemire was in the right place at the right time. you can make a case for saying that we gave up only lee i suppose.

and nobody feels stat is a franchise talent, do they? so while dolan felt it necessary to overpay for damaged goods how does that translate to stoudemire being either humble or greedy? i liked the team we had starting out in 2010-2011 but i did not like felton much at all and i thought stat was too selfish and limited anyway. so he was a number two guy who got max money but did not cost the knicks human assets. had melo done the same thing that would have been acceptable.

if anything i have to believe that stoudemire was humiliated in the wake of the melo deal. and i felt that once he was paired with a real point guard he would have thrived. instead we acquire a player who is essentially redundant and stoudemire gets shoved aside and becomes immediately irrelevant. much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.

Are you kidding? What happened to Amare was what the doctors in Phoenix said would happen and the reason he isn't on the Suns. You also have to consider that D'Antoni rode Amare like he was Secretariat at the Center position and he wore down as the season went on. This is a new low though. Blaming Melo for Amare's physical breaking down.

melo isn't to blame for stoudemire breaking down that is preposterous. and neither is d'antoni responsible for stoudemire breaking down, that too is preposterous. you're playing games again.

stoudemire is responsible for stoudemire breaking down. coming to new york he knew how to do one thing great which is finish on a pick and roll-- provided he had a good point guard. instead we get felton. not having any ability to be a playmaker for others, and dealing with a third-rate felton even in a d'antoni system, he does the only other thing he thinks he is capable of: going one on three night after night. i knew it was baloney but people like you love when players go into this asinine beast mode. and yet you still think he saved the knicks. i think what he did was foolish-- he is responsible for breaking himself down.

the secretariat quote from d'antoni was in reference to jeremy lin.

to any student of the game it was clear that stoudemire nightly broke away from the system and succeeded in freezing out teammates, even as an inept felton was incapable of keeping others involved.

I agree but what was your point in posting this nonsense?

much of what occurred to stoudemire may well have been psychosomatic, meaning that he reacted to the way he was treated with a physical breakdown because he did not like the new situation he found himself in as of february 22, 2011.[/quote]
If it was baloney why do you post such nonsense. Like your assessment of Melo's shoulder injury from what you saw on tv. Also, not sure where you are coming from with your 'people like me' comment. I am a fan and I do get excited during games. It is what is fun about being a fan. Again, don't post stuff likes its the truth and then react when you get called out on it. Keep it real. No need for backpedaling and fake outrage if you post the truth. Not interested in how it was baloney or hearing about your shoulder injuries make you an expert. Most guys that work out have had rotator cuff injuries. I have only encountered one that can diagnose the minimal impact of it on a basketball player from watching it on tv.

He rarely has any point. And he's spent 4 pages now not answering two simple questions, but wet-dreaming about make believe assets and draft picks and yoots that haven't panned out to be anything. Which somehow makes him a subject matter expert talking in circles above everyone's head.

It's okay.

Soon we'll read about Melo's greedy fool impact on the declining attendance at Bulgarian league games.

Its amazing how Melo gets blamed for everything around here. Blamed for the Knicks trade like he was the GM, blamed for Amare's decline like he's the doctor, blamed for Gallo's lack of growth like he's the trainer, blamed for Felton's problems like he's the dietitian, blamed for Lin like he's now a superstar on the Rockets. My favorite is how he was supposed to say no to an extension during a looming lockout so we could keep Gallo, chandler, and the great Moz. LOL this place is unreal.

I agree with everything you said about Melo and the modest value we sent to get him. Even so, assets are assets and I can't help but think that those guys could've been repackaged in another to get us a player we needed like CP3. That and draft picks was a far more compelling off than the one NOH originally got from LAL, and had it been made, I don't think it would've gotten nixed since it could have been marketed as moves for the future. I suppose we'll never know though.

The real mistake the Knicks made was waiving Corey Brewer when they did. Not only has he become a productive player but he could've been used as a sign and trade asset for Tyson Chandler, since Dallas wanted him all along anyway. That would've preserved our amnesty to use on Amar'e and allowed us to keep Billups' expiring contract to parlay into other moves. That one single move turned us from a team on the cusps of building a Dallas Mavericks-esque contender to being forced to present guys like Raymond Felton and Andrea Bargnani as franchise saviours. All because ****ing Donnie Walsh was butt buddies with Amare's agent Happy Walters (who was Corey's as well) and all because D'Antoni can't make use of a player without a jumpshot no matter how talented they are.

The problem with our package was Gallo and Chandler were both due to be paid the following year. Rebuilding teams wants 2 things: high draft picks and promising players on rookie contracts. Gallo and Chandler would have only offered a team one year at rookie cost and then due the money they are making now. It significantly lessens their value. And i agree 100% about Brewer, that was stupid to let him go for nothing. The Billups thing was unfortunately because of Stoudemire's decline. It wasn't a bad move at the time, just bad with what we know now. If anything, that hurt us the most. That as well as letting Lin and Fields walk as opposed to trading them sooner. People talk about losing assets for Melo, but Fields and Lin were assets that we got nothing for.

To be fair, Eric Gordon and Chris Kaman were expiring contracts that the Hornets got in return. In the initial trade, NOH accepted Lamar Odom (expirer), Luis Scola and Kevin Martin with no picks. All those guys had bloated contracts, were in their 30's and clearly passed their prime so I can't help but feel that the issues with our package were moot. Even in terms of value, it's hard to say that our package was lacking. Eric Gordon is better than Gallo but was he appreciably better? Wilson Chandler though was IMMENSELY better than Al Farouq Aminu. Landry Fields still had his hype and could've easily been the 10th pick of the draft that year (Austin Rivers). Timofey Mozgov had some nice games, including a 23 point and 17 rebound game against Detriot before he got traded to Denver, so I would've imagined that his stock would've been high. AND Chauncey Billups has always been better than Chris Kaman. I think you're underestimating this move but all I've got is conjecture at this point.

As for Lin and Fields, I wholeheartedly agree. After Lin got hurt, we should've looked to trade Fields immediately for a late 1st round pick/early 2nd round pick during the season. After all, he had put up some pretty good games playing at a quickened pace with Jeremy and without Melo. Even if we let him walk at season's end and only could pursue a sign and trade, that would've been a $5 million trade exception we could've used to get someone else, while preserving our Mid-Level Exception.

As for Jeremy, I still don't understand why we didn't sign and trade him in that deal the Rockets made with the Raptors for their 1st round pick. We should've walked away with Marcus Camby (sign and traded) and Toronto's pick (that became Steven Adams). Toronto should've still gotten Lowry and Houston should've gotten Lin. There was no excuse for us not to get something back considering the value he generated during the season, on and off the court; not to mention the leverage we had against Houston who had just missed out on Dwight Howard and had already committed to trade away both their PG's to clear cap space for him. We had the Rockets by the balls and we still screwed things up. But, we're dealing with the Knicks and have to accept a grain of ineptitude in everything that we do.

He keeps trying to mitigate what we gave up and it honestly is a pathetic attempt... Lets get down to results.. since the trade, the nuggets have had a better record than the knicks.. even till this very minute.. since chandler has been back, i think denver is 4-1...

I posted an article here a while back regarding gallo's value to the nuggets, they nuggs moved koufos and extened moz who has been playing solid ball and chandler is back and the nuggets have been better since he got healthy....

not sure what people look at when building a team, but I can tell by the way they value carmelo that they are more interested in NBA jams video style play than anything else.... classic example.. people will look at carmelo's stat line last night and see 34/15 and be like "wow"!!! he did his job.... yea, but what the stats don't show are the late rotations, the ridiculous heat check shots with guys open, and a host of other disgusting style basketball.. meanwhile, batum showed us how a SF who plays a complete, balanced game, elevates your team. He schooled the knicks last night.. jeez..

As I said, when you look at value a players value you have to accurately asses that player.. and we didn't do that with carmelo.. well walsh did, dolan didn't care... and in the end, what you see now is the inevitable IMO....

This article is a complete joke and a fail.. the writer clearly acknowledges that carmelo is a second tier star,a "robin", yet he doesn't address this point.. what team has ever traded as many assets as we have for a second tier star? where has that ever happened in the history of the NBA for such a player?

Yet since the trade the Knicks have been more successful in the playoffs. Dude you can justify it to yourself all day you want, but in the end we didn't give much in comparison to what was offered and agreed upon for Melo by other teams. Had he said he would accept an extension anywhere, we would not have him right now and thats a fact. While that would make you very happy, it has to make you realize that his value around the league was much higher than what we were offering. If we did a poor job accessing is value, then so did many other teams in the league. I'm not going to get into that topic with you of what he's worth, because clearly you think you are smarter than most GMs and owners, but is value is what others are willing to pay. For NJ that was Favors (#3 pick) and 4 first round picks. And who knows what other deals would have been on the table even better than that if he said he would sign anywhere else.

+1

+100000000000 He's actually stated this on occasion. For real.

tkf will tell you the regular season doesn't matter when he's trashing Melo, but then tell you the regular season is important when he's praising the Nuggets.

He's funny now like that.

regular season matters for teams like denver... knicks are a win now team.... we suck, we don't win now.. so it is a fail!!!

knicks are 3-10, we are closer to the jazz than the sixers...

you are funny like that... LOL

So Denver won the trade because regular season matters for them and they had a good regular season. Playoffs are irrelevant. We lost the trade because we only won one playoff series and the regular season is irrelevant for us. Ok got it lol. Makes perfect sense smh.

+1
And posts like this from the guy who brought you the whole "junior varsity" season theory...sad.

3-10!!

6 straight losses!!

No picks!!!

Old team!!!

Nuff said!

tkf wrote:^^ Denver won the trade because it made them a better team.. The end..

are you that dense that you can't see that? do you actually think the knicks are better than denver? this trash we are seeing?

Are the knicks set up to be better than denver? NO

we lost...

we didn't do **** in the playoffs!!!!!!!!!!! are you nuts! damn....smh..LOL

the end..

Look at all the comments to you around you here dude. Everyone knows you make no sense. I will just leave it at that.

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:^^ Denver won the trade because it made them a better team.. The end..

are you that dense that you can't see that? do you actually think the knicks are better than denver? this trash we are seeing?

Are the knicks set up to be better than denver? NO

we lost...

we didn't do **** in the playoffs!!!!!!!!!!! are you nuts! damn....smh..LOL

the end..

Look at all the comments to you around you here dude. Everyone knows you make no sense. I will just leave it at that.

what makes sense is that denver has been better since the trade..

we suck now..

No picks.

plenty of panic.

we lost..

the end.

WRONG!!! If knicks won a title you would still say we lost the trade lol. Denver hasn't done anything. Just given a lot of long term contracts to mid level players. Meanwhile, we are clean slate in 2015.

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

tkf wrote:^^ Denver won the trade because it made them a better team.. The end..

are you that dense that you can't see that? do you actually think the knicks are better than denver? this trash we are seeing?

Are the knicks set up to be better than denver? NO

we lost...

we didn't do **** in the playoffs!!!!!!!!!!! are you nuts! damn....smh..LOL

the end..

Look at all the comments to you around you here dude. Everyone knows you make no sense. I will just leave it at that.

what makes sense is that denver has been better since the trade..

we suck now..

No picks.

plenty of panic.

we lost..

the end.

WRONG!!! If knicks won a title you would still say we lost the trade lol. Denver hasn't done anything. Just given a lot of long term contracts to mid level players. Meanwhile, we are clean slate in 2015.

LOL, you love dreaming... clean slate? rofl.. with no one to sign or who wants to come here.. so I guess you have just wiped out Jr smith contract.. and carmelo isn't here.. cool,I can deal with that clean slate..

either way you lose.. if carmelo is here, no clean slate as his ugly deal will haunt us.... if he isn't here then we truly have a clean slate, and I get what I want.. so either way, you are stuck.

You just don't get it smh.