Basically I wanted to point to the idea that if Melo does indeed look to score more on actually BB plays rather than hold the ball ISO's then that's a GREAT development. There is no negative angle to take on this. We can't know if he'll really increase the rate of PnR plays etc, but if he does that would be a very good thing. Melo and his trainer identified a part of his game that is very efficient but that he hasn't used enough and I think if he's highlighting PnR then that will lead to an improvement in the amount of these plays he tries to execute. That's a good thing. Especially now that he'll have more teammates who can also excel in the PnR/PnP game.

Now someone tried to insinuate that teams will shut down the PnR, but what you have to do is disguise when you're going to use it. If it comes in a very natural and fluid manner as opposed to being stiff and obvious then it works. Fluid ball and player movement leads a defense to being out of position and it becomes easier to run set plays and ad lib. That's when PnR plays work best. You get the ball and player movement and then BANG a PnR/PnP. The same goes for curls and such. Just getting Melo to look to score more in the flow of the offense will be a major victory. This team KILLED teams when the ball was constantly moving. That's what we need to get more of. It's entirely possible that Melo can do this because it's all in his control. He simply has to decide this is what he wants to do on the court just like when he makes up his mind to hold the ball and go ISO. It's a choice not a talent.

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:Well i'm dealing with realities here and as I mentioned above Melo did show he can be more effective when he plays quick and doesn't just hold the ball on every play. Melo used picks and screens and ran some PnR. He still had his post ups but was smarter in how he used them. This game is more of an idea of what I think Melo does when he's playing more team oriented and in the flow of the offense.

well since you deal in realities.. reality is, he rarely plays this way, it has been like that for 10 years..counting

i disagree about things being the same for the past 10 years. That being said are you the same person you were at 19? How about 24? 26? My guess is you would say you have evolved. Would you want someone to say you couldnt adapt and improve at 29? Come on now. You said you dislike this guy so much you hate his face. Might be time to stay away from him as a topic. There isnt any objectivity to your posts when it comes to this guy.

Comparing it to your example, if I were the same person at age 19, 26,36,40, guess what? why would you believe that I would change at age 41?

nixluva wrote:This argument is pointless. Melo at this point is the star of the team and this year they've given him the best help he's had since being here. Melo does need help. It will keep him fresh and in the playoffs it will give defenses something else to worry about and make what he does more impactful.

Basically I wanted to point to the idea that if Melo does indeed look to score more on actually BB plays rather than hold the ball ISO's then that's a GREAT development. There is no negative angle to take on this. We can't know if he'll really increase the rate of PnR plays etc, but if he does that would be a very good thing. Melo and his trainer identified a part of his game that is very efficient but that he hasn't used enough and I think if he's highlighting PnR then that will lead to an improvement in the amount of these plays he tries to execute. That's a good thing. Especially now that he'll have more teammates who can also excel in the PnR/PnP game.

Now someone tried to insinuate that teams will shut down the PnR, but what you have to do is disguise when you're going to use it. If it comes in a very natural and fluid manner as opposed to being stiff and obvious then it works. Fluid ball and player movement leads a defense to being out of position and it becomes easier to run set plays and ad lib. That's when PnR plays work best. You get the ball and player movement and then BANG a PnR/PnP. The same goes for curls and such. Just getting Melo to look to score more in the flow of the offense will be a major victory. This team KILLED teams when the ball was constantly moving. That's what we need to get more of. It's entirely possible that Melo can do this because it's all in his control. He simply has to decide this is what he wants to do on the court just like when he makes up his mind to hold the ball and go ISO. It's a choice not a talent.

One sentence>>>essay.

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:This argument is pointless. Melo at this point is the star of the team and this year they've given him the best help he's had since being here. Melo does need help. It will keep him fresh and in the playoffs it will give defenses something else to worry about and make what he does more impactful.

Basically I wanted to point to the idea that if Melo does indeed look to score more on actually BB plays rather than hold the ball ISO's then that's a GREAT development. There is no negative angle to take on this. We can't know if he'll really increase the rate of PnR plays etc, but if he does that would be a very good thing. Melo and his trainer identified a part of his game that is very efficient but that he hasn't used enough and I think if he's highlighting PnR then that will lead to an improvement in the amount of these plays he tries to execute. That's a good thing. Especially now that he'll have more teammates who can also excel in the PnR/PnP game.

Now someone tried to insinuate that teams will shut down the PnR, but what you have to do is disguise when you're going to use it. If it comes in a very natural and fluid manner as opposed to being stiff and obvious then it works. Fluid ball and player movement leads a defense to being out of position and it becomes easier to run set plays and ad lib. That's when PnR plays work best. You get the ball and player movement and then BANG a PnR/PnP. The same goes for curls and such. Just getting Melo to look to score more in the flow of the offense will be a major victory. This team KILLED teams when the ball was constantly moving. That's what we need to get more of. It's entirely possible that Melo can do this because it's all in his control. He simply has to decide this is what he wants to do on the court just like when he makes up his mind to hold the ball and go ISO. It's a choice not a talent.

It's likely he wont change something he prefers to do.

One sentence>>>essay.

Some how you think that if Melo is literally convinced something new he's working on will help his game that he's not going to use it? You really haven't thought this thru have you? As I've said before. In the past Melo was asked to do these kinds of things but he resisted. He NEVER actually worked on adding PnR/PnP skills into his game. This would mark the 1st time he's come out stating that he's working on adding a high % skill to his game like this. Somehow you think this is the same as before, so I will challenge you to go back and find articles where he's stated that he's working specifically on this skill, recognizing that it's a high % part of his game that he hasn't taken full advantage of. His long time trainer is making it a point of emphasis, so clearly this is different. But you go on and keep repeating yourself as if that's a clever argument.

http://knickerblogger.net/knicks-morning-news-saturday-aug-24-2013/#comment-445433

ruruland
August 25, 2013 at 11:10 pm

Per Synergy

Melo ranked third in the NBA as a pnr ballhandler last year, averaging 1.07 ppp on 269 plays.

Melo was the 5th ranked roll man in the NBA last year as well.

In 2011-12, Melo ranked 18th in the league as a pnr ballhandler avg .96 PPP on 142 plays.

Melo also averaged 1.14 PPP on 22 pnr plays as the roll man in 11-12, which would have been a top 10 ranking had he qualified.

Melo compared with other highly efficient stars

2011-12 PNR Ballhandler

Lebron .97 PPP
Melo .96 PPP
Durant .93
Harden .99
Paul .93
Wade .89
Bryant .86
Curry .97
Pierce .80
Parker .85
Lawson .85

2011-12 PNR Rollman

Lebron 1.17 PPP
Melo 1.14 PPP
Durant 1.05
Griffin 1.08

2012-13 PNR Ballhandler

Melo 1.07
Lebron .92
Durant .91
Harden 1.00
Paul .98
Williams .75
Bryant .86
Wade .84
Curry .87
Lawson .88
Parker .91

(Quote)
12
ruruland
August 25, 2013 at 11:24 pm

The above shows you the power of shot distribution. It’s the kind of thing our friend Owen has never been able to wrap his head around.

Melo’s 269 possessions as a pick and roll ballhandler were a lot in 67 games relative to the average guard/wing. However, they represented a smaller part of his shot mix compared to the other guys on the list. Most of those players used 15-20 + percent of their possessions in the pick and roll.

It’s not as though Melo isn’t capable of significantly raising the amount of pick and rolls he’s involved in. Look at the other players on those lists. Almost all of them are primary ballhandlers.

The primary reason Melo didn’t have a TS% near .600 last year, as has been true throughout much of his career, was his shot distribution.

In Denver, Melo played in an unstructured offensive system that stressed quick shots, transition and semi-transition. He rarely had much shooting around him, and played with non-traditional guards that were most effective in isolation and post-ups (Billups and Miller).

Pick and rolls were not the emphasis of the offense, and were a largely neglected part of Melo’s game. His isolation and post-up centric approach developed in Denver.

But the year after Melo was traded to New York, his off-season emphasis was developing his pick and roll handling so he would better mesh in the 4-out as the Knicks primary playmaker.

Melo actually played much better as the point forward than he was given credit for.

To wit, Melo was averaging 4.5 assists per 36 minutes prior to Lin’s emergence. He had an assist percentage of 27.4. Melo was putting up those numbers without the benefit of a Steve Novak or JR Smith to spread the floor and make those corner 3-pointers.

It’s reasonable to assume that with just average shooting Melo would have been in the 5 assist area as the team’s primary ballhandler.

(Quote)
13
ruruland
August 25, 2013 at 11:40 pm

Remember that some of us observed in 2011-12 that Melo started to shift back to a more independent isolation-centric offensive approach as the Knicks shooting woes lingered on through January.

Last year, Melo led the league in usage by a large margin, and nearly 50 percent of his shots came off post-ups and isolations.

That’s way too much.

I think the coaching staff has recognized how great Melo is as pnr ballhandler, and have relayed that message to Ravin and Melo.

Remember that the Melo/Chandler pnr was the bread and butter player in the 4th quarter of close games last year.

That’s Woodson who called those plays.

I think the idea going into last season was to have Felton act as the team’s primary pnr attacker. I don’t think that will change much, and I still think Melo is almost always going to find the ball if a set doesn’t create a shot in the first 14 seconds.

But Melo can’t have a shot distribution like he’s had historically on a team with shooting and attacking like the Knicks will have next year.

I think Melo needs to be initiating sets much more frequently . He passes more frequently in the pnr as it allows him to see the floor and develop a rhythm managing the game.

Felton plays in spurts and when he’s tired after one of those spurts he starts to take those mid-range shots.

There’s no reason for that to happen next year.

A 10-15 percent reduction in isolations and post-ups should be made in pnr plays as the ballhandler in roller, and that’s kind of change will not only shoot-up Melo’s efficiency, but it will ensure the offense doesn’t stagnate too much. That only happens if the Knicks emphasize getting the ball to Melo earlier in the clock and further from the basket

There’s still a place for isolations and post-ups, even if they are less efficient shots. And Melo is still going to the primary bail-out option with 10 seconds or less.

IronWillGiroud wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:... shots with the opposing man's hand in his face or off-balance fade away jumpers.

to be fair, bonn--- that's just how it be sometimes

Bonn1997 wrote:

IronWillGiroud wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:... shots with the opposing man's hand in his face or off-balance fade away jumpers.

to be fair, bonn--- that's just how it be sometimes

If the shot clock is expiring, then it's a good thing that Melo can create a shot that he hits at an adequate rate. He takes those shots sometimes with 10 or 15 left on the clock though.

I believe his synergy account numbers have him with an pretty high attempts late in the shot clock. The guy I posted above posted the numbers before I believe.

nixluva wrote:

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:This argument is pointless. Melo at this point is the star of the team and this year they've given him the best help he's had since being here. Melo does need help. It will keep him fresh and in the playoffs it will give defenses something else to worry about and make what he does more impactful.

Basically I wanted to point to the idea that if Melo does indeed look to score more on actually BB plays rather than hold the ball ISO's then that's a GREAT development. There is no negative angle to take on this. We can't know if he'll really increase the rate of PnR plays etc, but if he does that would be a very good thing. Melo and his trainer identified a part of his game that is very efficient but that he hasn't used enough and I think if he's highlighting PnR then that will lead to an improvement in the amount of these plays he tries to execute. That's a good thing. Especially now that he'll have more teammates who can also excel in the PnR/PnP game.

Now someone tried to insinuate that teams will shut down the PnR, but what you have to do is disguise when you're going to use it. If it comes in a very natural and fluid manner as opposed to being stiff and obvious then it works. Fluid ball and player movement leads a defense to being out of position and it becomes easier to run set plays and ad lib. That's when PnR plays work best. You get the ball and player movement and then BANG a PnR/PnP. The same goes for curls and such. Just getting Melo to look to score more in the flow of the offense will be a major victory. This team KILLED teams when the ball was constantly moving. That's what we need to get more of. It's entirely possible that Melo can do this because it's all in his control. He simply has to decide this is what he wants to do on the court just like when he makes up his mind to hold the ball and go ISO. It's a choice not a talent.

It's likely he wont change something he prefers to do.

One sentence>>>essay.

Some how you think that if Melo is literally convinced something new he's working on will help his game that he's not going to use it? You really haven't thought this thru have you? As I've said before. In the past Melo was asked to do these kinds of things but he resisted. He NEVER actually worked on adding PnR/PnP skills into his game. This would mark the 1st time he's come out stating that he's working on adding a high % skill to his game like this. Somehow you think this is the same as before, so I will challenge you to go back and find articles where he's stated that he's working specifically on this skill, recognizing that it's a high % part of his game that he hasn't taken full advantage of. His long time trainer is making it a point of emphasis, so clearly this is different. But you go on and keep repeating yourself as if that's a clever argument.

BTW, he was already doing these things last year, notice the difference between last year and the year prior....

http://knickerblogger.net/knicks-morning-news-saturday-aug-24-2013/#comment-445433

August 25, 2013 at 11:10 pm

Per Synergy

Melo ranked third in the NBA as a pnr ballhandler last year, averaging 1.07 ppp on 269 plays.

Melo was the 5th ranked roll man in the NBA last year as well.

In 2011-12, Melo ranked 18th in the league as a pnr ballhandler avg .96 PPP on 142 plays.

Melo also averaged 1.14 PPP on 22 pnr plays as the roll man in 11-12, which would have been a top 10 ranking had he qualified.

yellowboy90 wrote:Saw this after I made my post some good numbers and some bias but it is what it is.

http://knickerblogger.net/knicks-morning-news-saturday-aug-24-2013/#comment-445433

ruruland
August 25, 2013 at 11:10 pm

Per Synergy

Melo ranked third in the NBA as a pnr ballhandler last year, averaging 1.07 ppp on 269 plays.

Melo was the 5th ranked roll man in the NBA last year as well.

In 2011-12, Melo ranked 18th in the league as a pnr ballhandler avg .96 PPP on 142 plays.

Melo also averaged 1.14 PPP on 22 pnr plays as the roll man in 11-12, which would have been a top 10 ranking had he qualified.

Melo compared with other highly efficient stars

2011-12 PNR Ballhandler

Lebron .97 PPP
Melo .96 PPP
Durant .93
Harden .99
Paul .93
Wade .89
Bryant .86
Curry .97
Pierce .80
Parker .85
Lawson .85

2011-12 PNR Rollman

Lebron 1.17 PPP
Melo 1.14 PPP
Durant 1.05
Griffin 1.08

2012-13 PNR Ballhandler

Melo 1.07
Lebron .92
Durant .91
Harden 1.00
Paul .98
Williams .75
Bryant .86
Wade .84
Curry .87
Lawson .88
Parker .91

(Quote)
12
ruruland
August 25, 2013 at 11:24 pm

The above shows you the power of shot distribution. It’s the kind of thing our friend Owen has never been able to wrap his head around.

Melo’s 269 possessions as a pick and roll ballhandler were a lot in 67 games relative to the average guard/wing. However, they represented a smaller part of his shot mix compared to the other guys on the list. Most of those players used 15-20 + percent of their possessions in the pick and roll.

It’s not as though Melo isn’t capable of significantly raising the amount of pick and rolls he’s involved in. Look at the other players on those lists. Almost all of them are primary ballhandlers.

The primary reason Melo didn’t have a TS% near .600 last year, as has been true throughout much of his career, was his shot distribution.

In Denver, Melo played in an unstructured offensive system that stressed quick shots, transition and semi-transition. He rarely had much shooting around him, and played with non-traditional guards that were most effective in isolation and post-ups (Billups and Miller).

Pick and rolls were not the emphasis of the offense, and were a largely neglected part of Melo’s game. His isolation and post-up centric approach developed in Denver.

But the year after Melo was traded to New York, his off-season emphasis was developing his pick and roll handling so he would better mesh in the 4-out as the Knicks primary playmaker.

Melo actually played much better as the point forward than he was given credit for.

To wit, Melo was averaging 4.5 assists per 36 minutes prior to Lin’s emergence. He had an assist percentage of 27.4. Melo was putting up those numbers without the benefit of a Steve Novak or JR Smith to spread the floor and make those corner 3-pointers.

It’s reasonable to assume that with just average shooting Melo would have been in the 5 assist area as the team’s primary ballhandler.

(Quote)
13
ruruland
August 25, 2013 at 11:40 pm

Remember that some of us observed in 2011-12 that Melo started to shift back to a more independent isolation-centric offensive approach as the Knicks shooting woes lingered on through January.

Last year, Melo led the league in usage by a large margin, and nearly 50 percent of his shots came off post-ups and isolations.

That’s way too much.

I think the coaching staff has recognized how great Melo is as pnr ballhandler, and have relayed that message to Ravin and Melo.

Remember that the Melo/Chandler pnr was the bread and butter player in the 4th quarter of close games last year.

That’s Woodson who called those plays.

I think the idea going into last season was to have Felton act as the team’s primary pnr attacker. I don’t think that will change much, and I still think Melo is almost always going to find the ball if a set doesn’t create a shot in the first 14 seconds.

But Melo can’t have a shot distribution like he’s had historically on a team with shooting and attacking like the Knicks will have next year.

I think Melo needs to be initiating sets much more frequently . He passes more frequently in the pnr as it allows him to see the floor and develop a rhythm managing the game.

Felton plays in spurts and when he’s tired after one of those spurts he starts to take those mid-range shots.

There’s no reason for that to happen next year.

A 10-15 percent reduction in isolations and post-ups should be made in pnr plays as the ballhandler in roller, and that’s kind of change will not only shoot-up Melo’s efficiency, but it will ensure the offense doesn’t stagnate too much. That only happens if the Knicks emphasize getting the ball to Melo earlier in the clock and further from the basket

There’s still a place for isolations and post-ups, even if they are less efficient shots. And Melo is still going to the primary bail-out option with 10 seconds or less.