Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Bargnani's bad - probably bottom 50 - but I don't quite think he's the worst player in the NBA. But there is a lot of good info. here from Berri's website, though. His bad rating is because of how far below average he is in all the nonscoring aspects of the game (especially rebounding).

So...take last year's Knicks, which were surprisingly good, and a big reason for that was the strength of their 3-point efficiency (a highly variable factor). Now subtract its best 3-point shooter (Novak) and its highly efficient shooting guard (Kidd). Then make Tyson Chandler and Amare Stoudemire each a year older (are we done calling Amare "Stat"? 'Cause now it's just kinda embarassing). Finally, sprinkle in a bit of the worst player in the NBA. These are not the ingredients of a championship. Adding a stellar-but-ancient defender who won't see a lot of playing time won't help either. You can make an argument that Kidd was a defensive liability, but he was a good rebounder and he and prigioni were the only two players that kept the ball moving in that offense. Then consider that Bargnani is a much worse defender, at a much more important position defensively, and that the Knicks don't have the types of players that can make up for it. I expect that this team is going to be about 10 wins worse than last year's team, which is probably going to get Mike Woodson fired, because management's expectations are too high.

I suppose it is possible that Woodson keeps Bargs on the bench entirely, starts Metta World Peace, and plays Melo at PF, but it won't be enough to make up for the Knicks shortcomings. And all the while we're banking on Tyson Chandler to stay healthy and play heavy minutes. It's hard to see this team beating the Bulls, the Pacers, or the Nets in a four game series, much less the Heat.

good find.. honest analysis.. except bargnani being the worst player in the NBA... I know players that are worse, but he isn't far from the bottom I guess when you factor everything in...

Yeah, it's just one metric. It's one you can't ignore but only part of the picture. The other metrics are a little better for him but still bad.

The plan is to play Bargs as a stretch 4, yes? Who is he a far worse defender than: Novak or Copeland?
From a defensive standpoint, we're not replacing Kidd with Bargnani, so that point in the quote is irrelevent. If anything, we're replacing Kidd with Shump. I'd call that an improvement. Add Artest up front, and I say we're coming out ahead on defense.

Bonn1997 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Bargnani's bad - probably bottom 50 - but I don't quite think he's the worst player in the NBA. But there is a lot of good info. here from Berri's website, though. His bad rating is because of how far below average he is in all the nonscoring aspects of the game (especially rebounding).

So...take last year's Knicks, which were surprisingly good, and a big reason for that was the strength of their 3-point efficiency (a highly variable factor). Now subtract its best 3-point shooter (Novak) and its highly efficient shooting guard (Kidd). Then make Tyson Chandler and Amare Stoudemire each a year older (are we done calling Amare "Stat"? 'Cause now it's just kinda embarassing). Finally, sprinkle in a bit of the worst player in the NBA. These are not the ingredients of a championship. Adding a stellar-but-ancient defender who won't see a lot of playing time won't help either. You can make an argument that Kidd was a defensive liability, but he was a good rebounder and he and prigioni were the only two players that kept the ball moving in that offense. Then consider that Bargnani is a much worse defender, at a much more important position defensively, and that the Knicks don't have the types of players that can make up for it. I expect that this team is going to be about 10 wins worse than last year's team, which is probably going to get Mike Woodson fired, because management's expectations are too high.

I suppose it is possible that Woodson keeps Bargs on the bench entirely, starts Metta World Peace, and plays Melo at PF, but it won't be enough to make up for the Knicks shortcomings. And all the while we're banking on Tyson Chandler to stay healthy and play heavy minutes. It's hard to see this team beating the Bulls, the Pacers, or the Nets in a four game series, much less the Heat.

good find.. honest analysis.. except bargnani being the worst player in the NBA... I know players that are worse, but he isn't far from the bottom I guess when you factor everything in...

Yeah, it's just one metric. It's one you can't ignore but only part of the picture. The other metrics are a little better for him but still bad.

Then we could have evaluated the PG position since we still are chasing PG's.. well we would have had enough money to get a guy like beno...and not insult him with a vet min and 3rd string hopes.. I know beno feels he is better than pablo.. heck we really could have upgraded the PG spot with a guy like Darren Collison... so collison and Hollins would have taken up our MLE.. well guess what? we still have the vet min.. available.. Dj augustine and Austin Day would have made sense.. Day can shoot, he can play some SF, and depending on matchups, a little PF if you want to spread the floor at times... Dj augustine, while not great, brings some scoring and speed at the PG spot.. heck none of our guards could check him..

so looking at what could have been done, we had options, but NO, the knicks are not concerned with giving the fans a good product, just one that looks good on the outside, on paper.... we could have filled some needs, and gotten younger.... and just think, maybe we don't go after daye, we could have gone after byron mullens.. Now I know he has a lot of improvement to do.. but he is athletic, another 7 footer, and he averaged almost 11/7 last year.. his shooting % was not good, but again, size.. and very good athleticism.. dude had a 31/14 game last year... and he is only 24.. low risk, high reward.. I mean the new spin is we are not working towards 2015 right? so why not start adding potential gems now? not reclamation projects and guys ready for the glue factory..

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I find it amusing that nba writers and pundits all herald Cope signing with the Pacers as a godly move, because he's a superb offensive player- doesn't matter that he can't defend or rebound- the Pacers will cover that, excellent signing, great player etc etc. But bargs is awful, he can't rebound! He can't play defense! His injury decimated year stats are somehow his entire career stats! terrible addition to the roster!

I'm sorry, but Bargs is better and more proven than Cope at this stage of their career.

Are you replying to my article? Bargs' wins produced was at the bottom of the league every year, not just last year. There isn't anyone in the league who's farther from the average in all the nonscoring aspects of the game.

Do you think Cope would have had a better career, or had more of an impact on wins, if you went back in time and the Raptors had drafted him instead of Bargs?

Some players just aren't able to help their teams win as the first option- doen't mean they'll be equally as ineffective as the third option.

Even though I haven't studied your stats (you know how I feel about them!), I have noticed in most of his highlight videos, the score shows the raptors are trailing. However like people have said, he might be able to be more effective in a different role for us.

cope would not have cost us any picks..

Vmart wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I find it amusing that nba writers and pundits all herald Cope signing with the Pacers as a godly move, because he's a superb offensive player- doesn't matter that he can't defend or rebound- the Pacers will cover that, excellent signing, great player etc etc. But bargs is awful, he can't rebound! He can't play defense! His injury decimated year stats are somehow his entire career stats! terrible addition to the roster!

I'm sorry, but Bargs is better and more proven than Cope at this stage of their career.

Who said Cope can't defend. That was a ploy by the Knicks to decrease his value around the league so they could resign him on the cheap. It's funny how one of the best defensive teams in the NBA picked him and they saw plenty of him during the playoff series to give him a contract. The Knicks are a funny organization they put these rumors out and fans believe it.

Anyone who watched Knicks games?

A defensive team who picks up a player does not equate to making that player an auto defensive player.

I think you just said that the Knicks put out rumors about their own players.... how it that possible?

tkf wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I find it amusing that nba writers and pundits all herald Cope signing with the Pacers as a godly move, because he's a superb offensive player- doesn't matter that he can't defend or rebound- the Pacers will cover that, excellent signing, great player etc etc. But bargs is awful, he can't rebound! He can't play defense! His injury decimated year stats are somehow his entire career stats! terrible addition to the roster!

I'm sorry, but Bargs is better and more proven than Cope at this stage of their career.

Are you replying to my article? Bargs' wins produced was at the bottom of the league every year, not just last year. There isn't anyone in the league who's farther from the average in all the nonscoring aspects of the game.

Do you think Cope would have had a better career, or had more of an impact on wins, if you went back in time and the Raptors had drafted him instead of Bargs?

Some players just aren't able to help their teams win as the first option- doen't mean they'll be equally as ineffective as the third option.

Even though I haven't studied your stats (you know how I feel about them!), I have noticed in most of his highlight videos, the score shows the raptors are trailing. However like people have said, he might be able to be more effective in a different role for us.

cope would not have cost us any picks..

But if the Knicks signed Cope at $3M, it would have cost them the ability to sign a PG behind Felton.

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I find it amusing that nba writers and pundits all herald Cope signing with the Pacers as a godly move, because he's a superb offensive player- doesn't matter that he can't defend or rebound- the Pacers will cover that, excellent signing, great player etc etc. But bargs is awful, he can't rebound! He can't play defense! His injury decimated year stats are somehow his entire career stats! terrible addition to the roster!

I'm sorry, but Bargs is better and more proven than Cope at this stage of their career.

Are you replying to my article? Bargs' wins produced was at the bottom of the league every year, not just last year. There isn't anyone in the league who's farther from the average in all the nonscoring aspects of the game.

Do you think Cope would have had a better career, or had more of an impact on wins, if you went back in time and the Raptors had drafted him instead of Bargs?

Some players just aren't able to help their teams win as the first option- doen't mean they'll be equally as ineffective as the third option.

Even though I haven't studied your stats (you know how I feel about them!), I have noticed in most of his highlight videos, the score shows the raptors are trailing. However like people have said, he might be able to be more effective in a different role for us.

It's hard to say because there's so little data from Cope in the NBA. Based on what he did show, I think it's unlikely that he'd be as bad as Bargs though. But I definitely would NOT have given up the 3 picks, Novak, and Camby for Copeland anyway.

martin wrote:

Vmart wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I find it amusing that nba writers and pundits all herald Cope signing with the Pacers as a godly move, because he's a superb offensive player- doesn't matter that he can't defend or rebound- the Pacers will cover that, excellent signing, great player etc etc. But bargs is awful, he can't rebound! He can't play defense! His injury decimated year stats are somehow his entire career stats! terrible addition to the roster!

I'm sorry, but Bargs is better and more proven than Cope at this stage of their career.

Who said Cope can't defend. That was a ploy by the Knicks to decrease his value around the league so they could resign him on the cheap. It's funny how one of the best defensive teams in the NBA picked him and they saw plenty of him during the playoff series to give him a contract. The Knicks are a funny organization they put these rumors out and fans believe it.

Anyone who watched Knicks games?

A defensive team who picks up a player does not equate to making that player an auto defensive player.

I think you just said that the Knicks put out rumors about their own players.... how it that possible?

honestly martin, would you put that past the knicks.. I mean seriously...this is the same organization that reportedly hid from the rockets(in a hotel) delivery of an offer for Lin..

“Rockets so far unable to hand deliver Lin offer sheet. Knicks refused to accept at team hotel. Glen Grunwald not at practice yest, gm today. Rockets had a courier knocking on doors at hotel, call room. Could not get someone to accept offer sheet yesterday. Rockets FedExed offer sheet to Knicks offices in NY, but league said GM Glen Grunwald must receive it himself. Clock to match at standstill. All of this is high comedy, but does leave no doubt that Knicks will take every bit of three days to match, once offer sheet is in hand”
While all of this is undoubtedly hilarious, as the Knicks childishly play “catch me if you can” with Houston, we’re not sure why they’re even doing this. Every report indicates they’ll match the Rockets’ offer, so there’s really not much to discuss in the front office – and news of the Rockets’ offer sheet has been public for over a week now, so they’ve had plenty of time to discuss further options. In any case, we hope the Knicks’ GM Glen Grunwald skips town and ends up in a country without an extradition treaty.

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nba/the-knicks-are-avoiding-jeremy-lins-houston-offer-sheet-so-the-three-day-clock-wont-start/

martin, all of us want the knicks to win, but enough is enough. .as fans we have to start demanding excellence from this organization.. from top to bottom.. as fans we have to draw the line with our dollars.. when will it come to an end.. when fans start flocking over the bridge to Brooklyn? at one time it sounded funny and far from reality, but let this crap continue.. and who knows martin.. I know we all want the same thing.. some of us are just tired, and we complain because we want better.. and we don't want fellow fans to settle for less... they deserve better... too bad they just don't see it themselves...

martin wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I find it amusing that nba writers and pundits all herald Cope signing with the Pacers as a godly move, because he's a superb offensive player- doesn't matter that he can't defend or rebound- the Pacers will cover that, excellent signing, great player etc etc. But bargs is awful, he can't rebound! He can't play defense! His injury decimated year stats are somehow his entire career stats! terrible addition to the roster!

I'm sorry, but Bargs is better and more proven than Cope at this stage of their career.

Are you replying to my article? Bargs' wins produced was at the bottom of the league every year, not just last year. There isn't anyone in the league who's farther from the average in all the nonscoring aspects of the game.

Do you think Cope would have had a better career, or had more of an impact on wins, if you went back in time and the Raptors had drafted him instead of Bargs?

Some players just aren't able to help their teams win as the first option- doen't mean they'll be equally as ineffective as the third option.

Even though I haven't studied your stats (you know how I feel about them!), I have noticed in most of his highlight videos, the score shows the raptors are trailing. However like people have said, he might be able to be more effective in a different role for us.

It's hard to say because there's so little data from Cope in the NBA. Based on what he did show, I think it's unlikely that he'd be as bad as Bargs though. But I definitely would NOT have given up the 3 picks, Novak, and Camby for Copeland anyway.

So there are a ton of usage, etc stats out there. I'd like to ask cause I don't know the answer: how do the stats compensate for starter versus bench? There is an obvious drop in talent in this regard and yet we still make direct comparisons with these 2 situations. Have you seen any adjustments?

If I was Woody one of the things i'd do with AB is to give him more post ups. Try to get him to the FT line more often. AB is an excellent FT shooter and needs to look to get there more often. IMO the more touches he gets the better. You wanna get AB up over 15 shots a game. AB's usage rate was up over 24% and as high as 29% the last 3 yrs. That's why you can't compare what AB does to players like Cope and Novak. Now with Melo, AB won't be the highest usage player on his team anymore. Melo had the highest usage rate of his career last year at 35.6%, which is crazy. Lebron was down to 30% last yr. Melo can come down a bit too. For both guys this will allow them to save some energy for the other end of the floor. Melo and AB can share the load more as opposed to taking on a bigger load.

Vmart wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Vmart wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I find it amusing that nba writers and pundits all herald Cope signing with the Pacers as a godly move, because he's a superb offensive player- doesn't matter that he can't defend or rebound- the Pacers will cover that, excellent signing, great player etc etc. But bargs is awful, he can't rebound! He can't play defense! His injury decimated year stats are somehow his entire career stats! terrible addition to the roster!

I'm sorry, but Bargs is better and more proven than Cope at this stage of their career.

Who said Cope can't defend. That was a ploy by the Knicks to decrease his value around the league so they could resign him on the cheap. It's funny how one of the best defensive teams in the NBA picked him and they saw plenty of him during the playoff series to give him a contract. The Knicks are a funny organization they put these rumors out and fans believe it.

He couldn't defend- he lacked even the basic's and seemed to give half-arsed effort in practice (watch the vids of Woody always telling him off). He certainly got better by the end of the year, but it's not a myth that he was a bad defender- saw it with my own eyes!

Woody had his favorites. Towards the end of the season Cope made strides in becoming a better defender. If you watched the playoffs he played better defense on Hibbert than Chandler.

Gee, that's saying alot. You could have played better D on Hibbert than Tyson's Chicken Legs.
Yes indeedy, Knicks are now using the old "season-long, keep the great young up and coming defensive presence on the bench ploy" in order to lower his market value.

Knick fans are and will always be funnier than the Knicks.

Next up, Nate Robinson, the underrated astronomical basketball IQ not properly utilized by this funny organization...