Re: Shump - It was Shump who knocked the ball away from Austin Rivers on the last play which was recovered by Rivers at mid court. But good to see that Shump recovers and is right by the basket to be in a good rebounding position if the shot was missed. One thing, he may be going in too often for rebounds and leaving his perimeter man open for a three. Happened earlier in the game when Austin Rivers hit a wide open three.

nixluva wrote:

codeunknown wrote:

nixluva wrote:
As for Shump I think people misunderstand the importance of him working on some PG skills and his BB IQ. It's only going to help him as a player. As a PG he's handling the ball FAR more than he would as a SG. He also gets to learn the offense from a higher level since he has to know what everyone else is doing and where to hit them with the pass. Shump will gain confidence handling the ball and eventually he'll get better running the PnR, which will be a big help. This wont' hurt his ability to be a scorer. It's going to enhance that, by allowing him to be used more. Shump will get a lot of extra looks off PnR where he can drive to the hoop. This won't stop him from getting off the ball looks as a SG, it's only going to add more looks when he has the ball as a PG. NO ONE handles the ball more than a PG. THINK ABOUT THAT!

Generalizing the overlap between the positions as "handling the ball" is not insightful. The point guard dribble is aimed at court survey and trap evasion, often near the top of the key. The flavor of the shooting guard dribble involves quick bursts, often at varying wing angle positions where the defensive kernel is less adaptable. Because of these considerations, it requires a separate array of moves and a different notion of ball protection. That isn't to say that cross-position innovation is impossible, but rather that, collateral terms like "handle" and "BBIQ" are probably overstating the relevance of one to the other.

All in all, it would be fantastic if Shumpert could play PG well. It would also be awesome if he could play center, coach and replace Mike Breen. But empirically, we know that few players are successful at multiple positions and, given Shumpert's baseline, investing conservatively here long-term may be prudent. That said, this is summer league. Its already an added effort to attend on his part and probably wise to give him some freedom to learn what he wants. His motivation is as important a variable towards his success as the others discussed above.

Man WTF are you talking about. There are so many Combo guards who run the point but also attack off the dribble and score at a high rate that it's not even funny. Some of the greatest dribble drive penetraters have always been PG's. Don't try to play some game of semantics about the role of the PG and how he uses the dribble. Shump was drafted as a combo guard. That's what he did in college. He's more of a SG than PG, but he does have some ability to play point, but just not at the NBA level.

The idea here is to see if they can raise Iman's acumen as a decision maker and that includes scoring and creating. From the PG spot he can learn a lot more about the game and how to attack a defense from the PG position. I think it's worth the effort to put Shump in this position and see how he handles it. He'll have a TON of time to work on scoring from the SG spot. This is a unique opportunity to work in some higher level stuff as a floor general. It has value. If it doesn't yield much there's no harm. Shump will spend a TON of his time playing the much easier role of SG which is mostly focused on scoring and really is much simpler from a mental standpoint.

Apparently you too should stick to things simpler from a mental standpoint. Either misunderstanding or willfully ignoring what was written doesn't make it semantic. Reread the post.

Few combo guards are stellar at both aspects, others are adequate, and Shump is unlikely to be in the former category. The probability of being stellar or close to it as a 2g is greater. Areas of focus should be weighed accordingly.

Note also that starting a post with "WTF are you talking about" will fetch you these sort of replies, this being the second you've received in just this thread.

CrushAlot wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

martin wrote:

playa2 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:Anyone see how Bullock played for Atlanta? I noticed he was 8-15 with 3 steals. (He was picked right after Hardaway Jr and many preferred him over him.)
I hope once Hardaway Jr improves his shot selection he % goes up...

I believe I was the ONLY poster here on UK Lobbying hard for us to take Bullock at 24.

It seems to me that Knicks Brass doesn't want anybody to compete with Melo with needing the balls in their hands. First we get rid of Copeland(potential fan favorite) and now we passed on another lights out shooting rookie from a good program at North Carolina. Hmmm

we got rid of Cope? wow

Well, just like Lin we didn't even make him an offer AND he was a fan favorite. I can overlook the last part but not even making an offer makes me think we didn't want him.

Good points Briggs, I really don't understand how they drafted another 2G (who isn't a great shooter). I would have been happier with Muscala also, but I'm sure he wasn't "value" there. (Remember last time we did that and took that Arizona guy over 3 or 4 pgs who all of us wanted???)

Cope and Lin's situations are a bit different in my opinion but the outrage comes when it is suggested that management is letting undrafted free agents they brought in walk and avoiding certain hopefully future role players in the draft with the 24th pick because those guys are going to compete against Melo by needing the ball in their hands. In regards to Lin, he is a pretty good point guard getting paid really good point guard money. Management chose not to take on that poison pill of 15 mil in year 3.

Signing Camby, Kidd and Novak to those deals could also be called a poison pill. I think the thing with Lin was, you don't let him walk for nothing. The 3rd year was a killer but he is a good player and we really need a #2 scorer (with brains). Now, we are still searching for a pg and still have yet to try and draft one...

I get the feeling Woody was involved in both Lin and Cope, as far as not even making offers.

earthmansurfer wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

martin wrote:

playa2 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:Anyone see how Bullock played for Atlanta? I noticed he was 8-15 with 3 steals. (He was picked right after Hardaway Jr and many preferred him over him.)
I hope once Hardaway Jr improves his shot selection he % goes up...

I believe I was the ONLY poster here on UK Lobbying hard for us to take Bullock at 24.

It seems to me that Knicks Brass doesn't want anybody to compete with Melo with needing the balls in their hands. First we get rid of Copeland(potential fan favorite) and now we passed on another lights out shooting rookie from a good program at North Carolina. Hmmm

we got rid of Cope? wow

Well, just like Lin we didn't even make him an offer AND he was a fan favorite. I can overlook the last part but not even making an offer makes me think we didn't want him.

Good points Briggs, I really don't understand how they drafted another 2G (who isn't a great shooter). I would have been happier with Muscala also, but I'm sure he wasn't "value" there. (Remember last time we did that and took that Arizona guy over 3 or 4 pgs who all of us wanted???)

Cope and Lin's situations are a bit different in my opinion but the outrage comes when it is suggested that management is letting undrafted free agents they brought in walk and avoiding certain hopefully future role players in the draft with the 24th pick because those guys are going to compete against Melo by needing the ball in their hands. In regards to Lin, he is a pretty good point guard getting paid really good point guard money. Management chose not to take on that poison pill of 15 mil in year 3.

Signing Camby, Kidd and Novak to those deals could also be called a poison pill. I think the thing with Lin was, you don't let him walk for nothing. The 3rd year was a killer but he is a good player and we really need a #2 scorer (with brains). Now, we are still searching for a pg and still have yet to try and draft one...

I get the feeling Woody was involved in both Lin and Cope, as far as not even making offers.

codeunknown wrote:

nixluva wrote:

codeunknown wrote:

nixluva wrote:
As for Shump I think people misunderstand the importance of him working on some PG skills and his BB IQ. It's only going to help him as a player. As a PG he's handling the ball FAR more than he would as a SG. He also gets to learn the offense from a higher level since he has to know what everyone else is doing and where to hit them with the pass. Shump will gain confidence handling the ball and eventually he'll get better running the PnR, which will be a big help. This wont' hurt his ability to be a scorer. It's going to enhance that, by allowing him to be used more. Shump will get a lot of extra looks off PnR where he can drive to the hoop. This won't stop him from getting off the ball looks as a SG, it's only going to add more looks when he has the ball as a PG. NO ONE handles the ball more than a PG. THINK ABOUT THAT!

Generalizing the overlap between the positions as "handling the ball" is not insightful. The point guard dribble is aimed at court survey and trap evasion, often near the top of the key. The flavor of the shooting guard dribble involves quick bursts, often at varying wing angle positions where the defensive kernel is less adaptable. Because of these considerations, it requires a separate array of moves and a different notion of ball protection. That isn't to say that cross-position innovation is impossible, but rather that, collateral terms like "handle" and "BBIQ" are probably overstating the relevance of one to the other.

All in all, it would be fantastic if Shumpert could play PG well. It would also be awesome if he could play center, coach and replace Mike Breen. But empirically, we know that few players are successful at multiple positions and, given Shumpert's baseline, investing conservatively here long-term may be prudent. That said, this is summer league. Its already an added effort to attend on his part and probably wise to give him some freedom to learn what he wants. His motivation is as important a variable towards his success as the others discussed above.

Man WTF are you talking about. There are so many Combo guards who run the point but also attack off the dribble and score at a high rate that it's not even funny. Some of the greatest dribble drive penetraters have always been PG's. Don't try to play some game of semantics about the role of the PG and how he uses the dribble. Shump was drafted as a combo guard. That's what he did in college. He's more of a SG than PG, but he does have some ability to play point, but just not at the NBA level.

The idea here is to see if they can raise Iman's acumen as a decision maker and that includes scoring and creating. From the PG spot he can learn a lot more about the game and how to attack a defense from the PG position. I think it's worth the effort to put Shump in this position and see how he handles it. He'll have a TON of time to work on scoring from the SG spot. This is a unique opportunity to work in some higher level stuff as a floor general. It has value. If it doesn't yield much there's no harm. Shump will spend a TON of his time playing the much easier role of SG which is mostly focused on scoring and really is much simpler from a mental standpoint.

Apparently you too should stick to things simpler from a mental standpoint. Either misunderstanding or willfully ignoring what was written doesn't make it semantic. Reread the post.

Few combo guards are stellar at both aspects, others are adequate, and Shump is unlikely to be in the former category. The probability of being stellar or close to it as a 2g is greater. Areas of focus should be weighed accordingly.

Note also that starting a post with "WTF are you talking about" will fetch you these sort of replies, this being the second you've received in just this thread.

Your argument is getting weaker. There was nothing wrong with the idea of trying out Shump at the POint in order to see if they can't IMPROVE on his PG skills and at the same time his overall game. PG skills or better yet decision making with the ball is a good skill to have at any position. I don't understand what your argument is in that regard. No one on the Knicks suggested they wanted to move Shump to the PG purely nor have they suggested he won't still spend a great amount of time working on skills that will help him as a SG or SF. This is a stupid thing to criticize the team for. It can only help to have Shump improve his ability to handle the ball and make better decisions with the ball.

earthmansurfer wrote:

nixluva wrote:Woody said that he expected to have Toure Murry in Training Camp. He said he loves everything about him!

I would be ECSTATIC if we brought in Tyler and Murry to camp. Tyler is still raw IMO, but I really think you can't allow a kid like him to get away when you can get him for nothing and develop him. I also think Vargas may be worth a look. He's got a really nice jumper and could be useful.

I'd like to see Tyler as a project, or even the Mathews kid if he plays well. Centers take time to develop, so I don't mind a 3 year plan for one. They both are rebounding machines and big guys...

I think Murry is a lock. Also, considering that he is a 2 originally and now learning to play PG, he is doing quite well. Maybe under the radar of most.

LOVE MURRY! He's got a smooth style to his game that I love. As I just watched him score. He can actually be a useful reserve right now IMO. They just need to give this kid a lot of attention in Camp and coach him up. He's got the talent and just needs to be taught the NBA game. I actually really like the scouting the Knicks seem to do talent wise, cuz the kids on this SL team are pretty good overall. With more development some of these kids could be good down the line. Vargas, AJ Mathews, Brownlee and Jennings in particular. Be good for the D League team.

Sad thing is that of all the kids I think Chris Smith is in the lower half of the talent here. I just don't see what he brings that will help the team. He's just a notch below what I think it takes to have an impact at the NBA level as PG. Smith is D League fodder IMO. Don't like J'Covan Brown either.

Right now for Camp i'd want to see Tyler, Murry along with THJ and CJ.

Clean wrote:Am I the only one who notices the potential in Jenning? He has played pretty good in both games without anyone saying anything about him.

I mentioned him. I think he's got some talent too. As I said I think this is a great SL team the Knicks put together. Really interesting talent on this team. Jennings has been very active and shown some good talent. It's just a numbers game tho. I can't imagine there being enough room for all of these guys. Murry, Tyler are locks IMO. Then you have THJ and CJ. Not sure there's room for Jennings too.

Papabear wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

martin wrote:

playa2 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:Anyone see how Bullock played for Atlanta? I noticed he was 8-15 with 3 steals. (He was picked right after Hardaway Jr and many preferred him over him.)
I hope once Hardaway Jr improves his shot selection he % goes up...

I believe I was the ONLY poster here on UK Lobbying hard for us to take Bullock at 24.

It seems to me that Knicks Brass doesn't want anybody to compete with Melo with needing the balls in their hands. First we get rid of Copeland(potential fan favorite) and now we passed on another lights out shooting rookie from a good program at North Carolina. Hmmm

we got rid of Cope? wow

Well, just like Lin we didn't even make him an offer AND he was a fan favorite. I can overlook the last part but not even making an offer makes me think we didn't want him.

Good points Briggs, I really don't understand how they drafted another 2G (who isn't a great shooter). I would have been happier with Muscala also, but I'm sure he wasn't "value" there. (Remember last time we did that and took that Arizona guy over 3 or 4 pgs who all of us wanted???)

The guy said multiple times he would have taken less money to stay here, so we didn't even bother to make him an offer. How is that not letting go of him?

I truly think the other poster is on to something. As funny as it sounds, management doesn't want anyone to moderately threaten Melo. Fan favorites like Lin and Cope do that to a point, but Cope and Lin also were scorers and I just don't think management (maybe the coach) wants that from other players. This is Melos team and they just want support around him.

The first time this happened with Lin I said the same thing, now again with Cope, come on????????

Papabear Says

If that is the case then Melo dosen't really want to win a championship. He just want to shoot the ball and to hell with everything else. Screw winning just let melo get his and he will be happy. Am I correct with what you are saying?

Politics in NY is NORMAL, you don't think Melo wants it this way ?

For crying out loud he was the leagues leading scorer, so if that doesn't tell you something nothing will. The way the team played early on with ball movement his numbers weren't as gaudy.

Now mind you I'm not a Melo hater, but when you are trying to win A Championship, you have to sacrifice something to allow others to help you win.

I'm looking for the signs, waiting for the team to win together and add more fire power putting the ball in the nets. We passed on Bullock for what ?