knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

3G4G wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

Clean wrote:People are quick to forget how unstopable Melo was at the end of the season. All it took was 3 injuries and 12 games before that memory was gone from existance.

his legacy will be defined by the post season for the most part. could be unfair.

Yet Paul George is defining his legacy now....Remember the Melo Legacy Threads that were started 2 times across 2 series and he performed poorly. To be honest even when Melo has been healthy he hasn't performed well in the playoffs as a Knick....

You kill me. Melo performed poorly, which for you is shooting the ball poorly, but George has performed admirably. There is a huge problem with that though.

George shot 40.6% from the field during his first two playoff series while Melo shot 40.6% over the same stretch and number of games (12).

George scored 19.1 ppg over that same stretch while Melo averaged 28.8ppg over the same stretch and number of games.

In a head to head against George, Melo averaged 7.8rpg and George averaged 7.0rpg.

Melo averaged 2.5 turnovers per game and George averaged 4.5.

Melo shot 86.8% from the free throw line while George shot just 60%.

All of this occurred with George averaging more than 4 minutes per game more than Melo and yet George is defining his legacy despite being below par to Melo on most metrics while Melo is Hitler. Makes sense.

You're making the argument for Melo worse by comparing him to a younger 3 year player.

Melo's stats were not better than PG in most areas, the turnovers make it even worse considering melo doesn't run his teams offense like PG does.

PG is a nightly triple double threat who also plays consistent defense....Melo just takes alot of shots, great when he hits them, average NBA player when he misses.....so far pretty subpar as a playoff Knick.

Again, you can't jump in and not follow the origin of the argument. 3G4G was intimating that Paul George was better than Carmelo. I was merely defending Melo against that point. And again, the numbers speak for themselves if you disagree with my defense.

I already acknowledged that George is a better defender but I don't think that is the end all be all of any discussion. Personally, I don't. I also don't consider George to be a triple double threat getting just one this season and one in the playoffs but to each his own. He is a pretty good passer, which is partially reflected in his assists per game but he doesn't "run his teams offense" anymore than Melo runs our own. George Hill and DJ Augustin are clearly the primary ballhandlers for that team, with Lance Stephenson being the guy to be the ballhandler on fastbreaks. As I mentioned, George is a pretty good passer but to have assists you have to have teammates be able to make shots which the Knicks couldn't in the playoffs.

Wasn't hard to jump in, PG is playing better than melo in the postseason in many of the facets that the playoffs require with the ultimate being defense.

Wont even debate the point of teammates, as everyone in the starting lineup shot better from three than melo yet melo took the most shots from that area...29% is dismal.

Even his fg% wasn't even 1-3, and that's not including chdnler, only Pablo was worse, and we know he prefers NOT to shoot and psses up many.

For me the playoffs is where players shine, melo has yet to shine as a Knick, whereas PG is definitely shining as a Pacer.

Does George also fart rainbows and happiness too? The guy had two impressive games against the Heat and that somehow supersedes his body of work; which has been subpar to Melo this season? Bull****.

And last I checked, three pointers don't even come close to representing half of the teams offensive sets. Using a team's 3-point shooting percentage as a representation of a teams offensive prowess is about as a ridiculous as using a players FT% as a metric for how effective an offensive player he is;

both are such great marginalizations. In the 6 games we lost in the playoffs the Knicks as a team shot 38% from the field and 30.7% from beyond the arch. Clearly this team's supporting cast did not step up to the challenge.

I'm not entirely sure what point you were trying to make following the "29% is dismal [sic]" bit. In any case, its ridiculous to suggest that one player is "shining" while another is not, despite the later consistently outperforming him in every metric. Facts are not subject to a popularity contest no matter how much you try to make it. George has had two very impressive games against the Heat but two games don't supersede an entire body of work.

A team that shoots an absurd amount of threes shouldn't be judged by their threes? I'm I reading this correctly?

Honestly I dont care about melos "body of work", i only care about his play in the postseason as a Knick.

37% 41% 40% is dismal.....and that's combined by being subpar in other areas.

PG is not subpar in the other areas, and his offense isn't that far behind melo's postseason averages.

"An absurd amount of threes" still represents only 35% of the total shots taken during the game and only 29.86% of total shots made. And no, I'm not sure if you've been reading correctly.

For the record Melo's shooting percentages in the playoffs were 38%, 42% and 41% but thats nitpicking. Yes, those shooting percentages are abysmal if you don't have the common sense to acknowledge that he was a lone wolf in each of the three series. Its pretty difficult to score when everyone knows you're the only threat on the floor and can zero in on you. Give him some actual talent and he'd be able to make the difference.

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

3G4G wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

Clean wrote:People are quick to forget how unstopable Melo was at the end of the season. All it took was 3 injuries and 12 games before that memory was gone from existance.

his legacy will be defined by the post season for the most part. could be unfair.

Yet Paul George is defining his legacy now....Remember the Melo Legacy Threads that were started 2 times across 2 series and he performed poorly. To be honest even when Melo has been healthy he hasn't performed well in the playoffs as a Knick....

You kill me. Melo performed poorly, which for you is shooting the ball poorly, but George has performed admirably. There is a huge problem with that though.

George shot 40.6% from the field during his first two playoff series while Melo shot 40.6% over the same stretch and number of games (12).

George scored 19.1 ppg over that same stretch while Melo averaged 28.8ppg over the same stretch and number of games.

In a head to head against George, Melo averaged 7.8rpg and George averaged 7.0rpg.

Melo averaged 2.5 turnovers per game and George averaged 4.5.

Melo shot 86.8% from the free throw line while George shot just 60%.

All of this occurred with George averaging more than 4 minutes per game more than Melo and yet George is defining his legacy despite being below par to Melo on most metrics while Melo is Hitler. Makes sense.

You're making the argument for Melo worse by comparing him to a younger 3 year player.

Melo's stats were not better than PG in most areas, the turnovers make it even worse considering melo doesn't run his teams offense like PG does.

PG is a nightly triple double threat who also plays consistent defense....Melo just takes alot of shots, great when he hits them, average NBA player when he misses.....so far pretty subpar as a playoff Knick.

SO basically Melo has to have around 10 rebs battling bigger players for it to be considered as something else and he can't play good D he has to hold a guy to under 10 points?

He certainly cannot be an inconsistent rebounder playing a position that requires consistent boards.

Also he cannot have more turnovers than assists when he isn't running the offense.

And scoring which is his only skill cannot be 37% 41% 40% in the playoffs as a New York Knick....that's actually pretty scrubbish.

Durant shot 42% without a capable no.2 man? Is he "scrubbish" too?

Durant didn't average that for the playoffs like melo did, but nice try.

Durant had two terrible games, prior to those he was ridiculously efficient and was rebounding passing and defending.

now if melo averaged 9 boards and 6 dimes in the playoffs, a few bad shooting nights would be excused.

You're half right and I apologize. After Westbrook went down on April 24th, Durant shot 47% from the field in the 9 games he played in. That number is a bit misleading though because of the type of opponent he played against in the 1st round. The Rockets are an uptempo team, which allowed the game to be easier to score in. Against the Grizzlies whose tempo and personnel is much more akin to the opponents Melo played, Durant only shot 42.1% in the series which is where I got that number. Take away game 4 of the Houston series where he shot 75% from the field, a clear aberration for any player, and Durant's averages 43.68% shooting from the field which is very much indicative of the 42.1% he shot against the Grizzlies. The point is that no one player makes a team or an individual performance.

Personally, I'm not saying that Melo is as good or a better overall player than Durant. I'm only comparing the two from an offensive perspective, which is clearly appropriate. You can't knock Melo's offensive prowess when you hold no other scorer in his class to that standard.

Even you only look at offense, which in the playoffs you never should, Durant lead his team in virtually every offensive category from points, assists, fg, and ft%....and thats on top of being the teams leading rebounder and steals getter.

This point is no where even close....

Dude, re-read my posts. You're having an argument with yourself and don't seem to know it. I've NEVER insinuated that Melo is some jack of all trades, though I don't think he gets credit for what he can do because everyone is expecting LeBron type numbers. My response was tailored to 3G4G dismissing Melo because of his shooting percentage. That is it and has been it. As an offensive player, Melo is an elite dude and if he had the same luxuries other scoring stars shared, it would not even be a question.

And how the hell is offense something you should never look at? Half of the game is played on the offensive end of the floor so you can't just discredit it. Stop regurgitating the generic bull**** that some talking head says and that sheep follow blindly. For all the talk about "defense winning games, offense selling tickets", the legends of the game have all made their bones through their offensive prowess. People don't remember Jordan as much for his defensive skill in the playoffs as they do for his shots over Craig Elo and Bryon Russell, as well as his 63 points against an elite Celtics team, etc.

The reason why so much stock is put into great scorers is because they are able to put the ball in the basket during a stretch of the season when everyones' defensive intensity increases exponentially. Melo lacks the intangibles that make the greats like Jordan but he still possesses a hell of a scoring ability despite lacking much talent from his supporting cast.

Now what he does do is double his fga's compared to his next teammate, while being inefficient at such.

Can you seriously justify 300+ shots in 12 games, which is not including the ones he missed on continuations leading to free throws?

But your right scorer are remembered because they score, the guys you mentioned not only scored but also won the game.

As far as Jordan's 63, he knew he had to do more than that....thus he started to do more.

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

3G4G wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

Clean wrote:People are quick to forget how unstopable Melo was at the end of the season. All it took was 3 injuries and 12 games before that memory was gone from existance.

his legacy will be defined by the post season for the most part. could be unfair.

Yet Paul George is defining his legacy now....Remember the Melo Legacy Threads that were started 2 times across 2 series and he performed poorly. To be honest even when Melo has been healthy he hasn't performed well in the playoffs as a Knick....

You kill me. Melo performed poorly, which for you is shooting the ball poorly, but George has performed admirably. There is a huge problem with that though.

George shot 40.6% from the field during his first two playoff series while Melo shot 40.6% over the same stretch and number of games (12).

George scored 19.1 ppg over that same stretch while Melo averaged 28.8ppg over the same stretch and number of games.

In a head to head against George, Melo averaged 7.8rpg and George averaged 7.0rpg.

Melo averaged 2.5 turnovers per game and George averaged 4.5.

Melo shot 86.8% from the free throw line while George shot just 60%.

All of this occurred with George averaging more than 4 minutes per game more than Melo and yet George is defining his legacy despite being below par to Melo on most metrics while Melo is Hitler. Makes sense.

You're making the argument for Melo worse by comparing him to a younger 3 year player.

Melo's stats were not better than PG in most areas, the turnovers make it even worse considering melo doesn't run his teams offense like PG does.

PG is a nightly triple double threat who also plays consistent defense....Melo just takes alot of shots, great when he hits them, average NBA player when he misses.....so far pretty subpar as a playoff Knick.

SO basically Melo has to have around 10 rebs battling bigger players for it to be considered as something else and he can't play good D he has to hold a guy to under 10 points?

He certainly cannot be an inconsistent rebounder playing a position that requires consistent boards.

Also he cannot have more turnovers than assists when he isn't running the offense.

And scoring which is his only skill cannot be 37% 41% 40% in the playoffs as a New York Knick....that's actually pretty scrubbish.

Durant shot 42% without a capable no.2 man? Is he "scrubbish" too?

Durant didn't average that for the playoffs like melo did, but nice try.

Durant had two terrible games, prior to those he was ridiculously efficient and was rebounding passing and defending.

now if melo averaged 9 boards and 6 dimes in the playoffs, a few bad shooting nights would be excused.

You're half right and I apologize. After Westbrook went down on April 24th, Durant shot 47% from the field in the 9 games he played in. That number is a bit misleading though because of the type of opponent he played against in the 1st round. The Rockets are an uptempo team, which allowed the game to be easier to score in. Against the Grizzlies whose tempo and personnel is much more akin to the opponents Melo played, Durant only shot 42.1% in the series which is where I got that number. Take away game 4 of the Houston series where he shot 75% from the field, is a clear aberration for any player, and Durant's averages 43.68% shooting from the field which is very much indicative of the 42.1% he shot against the Grizzlies. The point is that no one player makes a team or an individual performance.

Personally, I'm not saying that Melo is as good or a better overall player than Durant. I'm only comparing the two from an offensive perspective, which is clearly appropriate. You can't knock Melo's offensive prowess when you hold no other scorer in his class to that standard.

You know that 42.1% would be an above average post-season for Melo? Regardless, the criticism of Melo was not simply his low FG% but also was that scoring is his only skill (see bold above)

....and Melo never had a guy like Westbrook to be his no.2 like Durant has from the jump. The two seasons Melo had an aged Billups heading into the playoffs, he shot 45.8% and 45.2% from the field. And for all the talk about "scoring being his only skill", he averaged 6rpg and 3apg from the 3 spot in the playoffs which should rank him among the elites at his position. If you're expecting him to be LeBron then the problem has more to do with you than him.

I said "is", not "was." You're right that he used to be a good rebounder but now is below average when playing either forward position.

He averages 7.3rpg for his career in the playoffs over 39mpg. This season he averaged 6.6 over 40.1mpg. Does that 0.7rpg make that significant a difference?

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

3G4G wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

Clean wrote:People are quick to forget how unstopable Melo was at the end of the season. All it took was 3 injuries and 12 games before that memory was gone from existance.

his legacy will be defined by the post season for the most part. could be unfair.

Yet Paul George is defining his legacy now....Remember the Melo Legacy Threads that were started 2 times across 2 series and he performed poorly. To be honest even when Melo has been healthy he hasn't performed well in the playoffs as a Knick....

You kill me. Melo performed poorly, which for you is shooting the ball poorly, but George has performed admirably. There is a huge problem with that though.

George shot 40.6% from the field during his first two playoff series while Melo shot 40.6% over the same stretch and number of games (12).

George scored 19.1 ppg over that same stretch while Melo averaged 28.8ppg over the same stretch and number of games.

In a head to head against George, Melo averaged 7.8rpg and George averaged 7.0rpg.

Melo averaged 2.5 turnovers per game and George averaged 4.5.

Melo shot 86.8% from the free throw line while George shot just 60%.

All of this occurred with George averaging more than 4 minutes per game more than Melo and yet George is defining his legacy despite being below par to Melo on most metrics while Melo is Hitler. Makes sense.

You're making the argument for Melo worse by comparing him to a younger 3 year player.

Melo's stats were not better than PG in most areas, the turnovers make it even worse considering melo doesn't run his teams offense like PG does.

PG is a nightly triple double threat who also plays consistent defense....Melo just takes alot of shots, great when he hits them, average NBA player when he misses.....so far pretty subpar as a playoff Knick.

Again, you can't jump in and not follow the origin of the argument. 3G4G was intimating that Paul George was better than Carmelo. I was merely defending Melo against that point. And again, the numbers speak for themselves if you disagree with my defense.

I already acknowledged that George is a better defender but I don't think that is the end all be all of any discussion. Personally, I don't. I also don't consider George to be a triple double threat getting just one this season and one in the playoffs but to each his own. He is a pretty good passer, which is partially reflected in his assists per game but he doesn't "run his teams offense" anymore than Melo runs our own. George Hill and DJ Augustin are clearly the primary ballhandlers for that team, with Lance Stephenson being the guy to be the ballhandler on fastbreaks. As I mentioned, George is a pretty good passer but to have assists you have to have teammates be able to make shots which the Knicks couldn't in the playoffs.

Wasn't hard to jump in, PG is playing better than melo in the postseason in many of the facets that the playoffs require with the ultimate being defense.

Wont even debate the point of teammates, as everyone in the starting lineup shot better from three than melo yet melo took the most shots from that area...29% is dismal.

Even his fg% wasn't even 1-3, and that's not including chdnler, only Pablo was worse, and we know he prefers NOT to shoot and psses up many.

For me the playoffs is where players shine, melo has yet to shine as a Knick, whereas PG is definitely shining as a Pacer.

Does George also fart rainbows and happiness too? The guy had two impressive games against the Heat and that somehow supersedes his body of work; which has been subpar to Melo this season? Bull****.

And last I checked, three pointers don't even come close to representing half of the teams offensive sets. Using a team's 3-point shooting percentage as a representation of a teams offensive prowess is about as a ridiculous as using a players FT% as a metric for how effective an offensive player he is;

both are such great marginalizations. In the 6 games we lost in the playoffs the Knicks as a team shot 38% from the field and 30.7% from beyond the arch. Clearly this team's supporting cast did not step up to the challenge.

I'm not entirely sure what point you were trying to make following the "29% is dismal [sic]" bit. In any case, its ridiculous to suggest that one player is "shining" while another is not, despite the later consistently outperforming him in every metric. Facts are not subject to a popularity contest no matter how much you try to make it. George has had two very impressive games against the Heat but two games don't supersede an entire body of work.

A team that shoots an absurd amount of threes shouldn't be judged by their threes? I'm I reading this correctly?

Honestly I dont care about melos "body of work", i only care about his play in the postseason as a Knick.

37% 41% 40% is dismal.....and that's combined by being subpar in other areas.

PG is not subpar in the other areas, and his offense isn't that far behind melo's postseason averages.

"An absurd amount of threes" still represents only 35% of the total shots taken during the game and only 29.86% of total shots made. And no, I'm not sure if you've been reading correctly.

For the record Melo's shooting percentages in the playoffs were 38%, 42% and 41% but thats nitpicking. Yes, those shooting percentages are abysmal if you don't have the common sense to acknowledge that he was a lone wolf in each of the three series. Its pretty difficult to score when everyone knows you're the only threat on the floor and can zero in on you. Give him some actual talent and he'd be able to make the difference.

How is the one thing he does is nitpicking? and he certainly couldn't be the lone wolf if he had guys with better %'s starting games right along with him.

Share the ball, those guys in the same starting lineup shot better than he did.

Go look at Raymond Felton's playoff FG% without Melo. Go look at JR Smith's playoff FG% the one season without Melo in Denver. Go look Jared Jefferies FG% without Melo in the playoffs. Go look at Bill Walkers FG% without Melo in the playoffs. Go look at Shawne Williams FG% without Melo in the playoffs. Go look at Jason Kidd's FG% without Melo in the playoffs. All of those guys were prominent rotation player at different time with Melo, that shot similarly poorly without Melo. What you're suggesting is ridiculous. If he passed the ball more, they would have shot just as bad, if not worse and the games probably would not have been as competitive.

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

3G4G wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

Clean wrote:People are quick to forget how unstopable Melo was at the end of the season. All it took was 3 injuries and 12 games before that memory was gone from existance.

his legacy will be defined by the post season for the most part. could be unfair.

Yet Paul George is defining his legacy now....Remember the Melo Legacy Threads that were started 2 times across 2 series and he performed poorly. To be honest even when Melo has been healthy he hasn't performed well in the playoffs as a Knick....

You kill me. Melo performed poorly, which for you is shooting the ball poorly, but George has performed admirably. There is a huge problem with that though.

George shot 40.6% from the field during his first two playoff series while Melo shot 40.6% over the same stretch and number of games (12).

George scored 19.1 ppg over that same stretch while Melo averaged 28.8ppg over the same stretch and number of games.

In a head to head against George, Melo averaged 7.8rpg and George averaged 7.0rpg.

Melo averaged 2.5 turnovers per game and George averaged 4.5.

Melo shot 86.8% from the free throw line while George shot just 60%.

All of this occurred with George averaging more than 4 minutes per game more than Melo and yet George is defining his legacy despite being below par to Melo on most metrics while Melo is Hitler. Makes sense.

You're making the argument for Melo worse by comparing him to a younger 3 year player.

Melo's stats were not better than PG in most areas, the turnovers make it even worse considering melo doesn't run his teams offense like PG does.

PG is a nightly triple double threat who also plays consistent defense....Melo just takes alot of shots, great when he hits them, average NBA player when he misses.....so far pretty subpar as a playoff Knick.

SO basically Melo has to have around 10 rebs battling bigger players for it to be considered as something else and he can't play good D he has to hold a guy to under 10 points?

He certainly cannot be an inconsistent rebounder playing a position that requires consistent boards.

Also he cannot have more turnovers than assists when he isn't running the offense.

And scoring which is his only skill cannot be 37% 41% 40% in the playoffs as a New York Knick....that's actually pretty scrubbish.

Durant shot 42% without a capable no.2 man? Is he "scrubbish" too?

Durant didn't average that for the playoffs like melo did, but nice try.

Durant had two terrible games, prior to those he was ridiculously efficient and was rebounding passing and defending.

now if melo averaged 9 boards and 6 dimes in the playoffs, a few bad shooting nights would be excused.

You're half right and I apologize. After Westbrook went down on April 24th, Durant shot 47% from the field in the 9 games he played in. That number is a bit misleading though because of the type of opponent he played against in the 1st round. The Rockets are an uptempo team, which allowed the game to be easier to score in. Against the Grizzlies whose tempo and personnel is much more akin to the opponents Melo played, Durant only shot 42.1% in the series which is where I got that number. Take away game 4 of the Houston series where he shot 75% from the field, is a clear aberration for any player, and Durant's averages 43.68% shooting from the field which is very much indicative of the 42.1% he shot against the Grizzlies. The point is that no one player makes a team or an individual performance.

Personally, I'm not saying that Melo is as good or a better overall player than Durant. I'm only comparing the two from an offensive perspective, which is clearly appropriate. You can't knock Melo's offensive prowess when you hold no other scorer in his class to that standard.

You know that 42.1% would be an above average post-season for Melo? Regardless, the criticism of Melo was not simply his low FG% but also was that scoring is his only skill (see bold above)

....and Melo never had a guy like Westbrook to be his no.2 like Durant has from the jump. The two seasons Melo had an aged Billups heading into the playoffs, he shot 45.8% and 45.2% from the field. And for all the talk about "scoring being his only skill", he averaged 6rpg and 3apg from the 3 spot in the playoffs which should rank him among the elites at his position. If you're expecting him to be LeBron then the problem has more to do with you than him.

I said "is", not "was." You're right that he used to be a good rebounder but now is below average when playing either forward position.

He averages 7.3rpg for his career in the playoffs over 39mpg. This season he averaged 6.6 over 40.1mpg. Does that 0.7rpg make that significant a difference?

You do realize this years playoffs was arguably his worst rebounding effort? When has he ever got less than 1 offensive board, but i guess that's what happens when the majority of what he does is shoot jumpers and threes.

Your arguments in support of melo is making him looks worse....please cease.

I see math isn't a strong suit of yours.

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

3G4G wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

Clean wrote:People are quick to forget how unstopable Melo was at the end of the season. All it took was 3 injuries and 12 games before that memory was gone from existance.

his legacy will be defined by the post season for the most part. could be unfair.

Yet Paul George is defining his legacy now....Remember the Melo Legacy Threads that were started 2 times across 2 series and he performed poorly. To be honest even when Melo has been healthy he hasn't performed well in the playoffs as a Knick....

You kill me. Melo performed poorly, which for you is shooting the ball poorly, but George has performed admirably. There is a huge problem with that though.

George shot 40.6% from the field during his first two playoff series while Melo shot 40.6% over the same stretch and number of games (12).

George scored 19.1 ppg over that same stretch while Melo averaged 28.8ppg over the same stretch and number of games.

In a head to head against George, Melo averaged 7.8rpg and George averaged 7.0rpg.

Melo averaged 2.5 turnovers per game and George averaged 4.5.

Melo shot 86.8% from the free throw line while George shot just 60%.

All of this occurred with George averaging more than 4 minutes per game more than Melo and yet George is defining his legacy despite being below par to Melo on most metrics while Melo is Hitler. Makes sense.

You're making the argument for Melo worse by comparing him to a younger 3 year player.

Melo's stats were not better than PG in most areas, the turnovers make it even worse considering melo doesn't run his teams offense like PG does.

PG is a nightly triple double threat who also plays consistent defense....Melo just takes alot of shots, great when he hits them, average NBA player when he misses.....so far pretty subpar as a playoff Knick.

Again, you can't jump in and not follow the origin of the argument. 3G4G was intimating that Paul George was better than Carmelo. I was merely defending Melo against that point. And again, the numbers speak for themselves if you disagree with my defense.

I already acknowledged that George is a better defender but I don't think that is the end all be all of any discussion. Personally, I don't. I also don't consider George to be a triple double threat getting just one this season and one in the playoffs but to each his own. He is a pretty good passer, which is partially reflected in his assists per game but he doesn't "run his teams offense" anymore than Melo runs our own. George Hill and DJ Augustin are clearly the primary ballhandlers for that team, with Lance Stephenson being the guy to be the ballhandler on fastbreaks. As I mentioned, George is a pretty good passer but to have assists you have to have teammates be able to make shots which the Knicks couldn't in the playoffs.

Wasn't hard to jump in, PG is playing better than melo in the postseason in many of the facets that the playoffs require with the ultimate being defense.

Wont even debate the point of teammates, as everyone in the starting lineup shot better from three than melo yet melo took the most shots from that area...29% is dismal.

Even his fg% wasn't even 1-3, and that's not including chdnler, only Pablo was worse, and we know he prefers NOT to shoot and psses up many.

For me the playoffs is where players shine, melo has yet to shine as a Knick, whereas PG is definitely shining as a Pacer.

Does George also fart rainbows and happiness too? The guy had two impressive games against the Heat and that somehow supersedes his body of work; which has been subpar to Melo this season? Bull****.

And last I checked, three pointers don't even come close to representing half of the teams offensive sets. Using a team's 3-point shooting percentage as a representation of a teams offensive prowess is about as a ridiculous as using a players FT% as a metric for how effective an offensive player he is;

both are such great marginalizations. In the 6 games we lost in the playoffs the Knicks as a team shot 38% from the field and 30.7% from beyond the arch. Clearly this team's supporting cast did not step up to the challenge.

I'm not entirely sure what point you were trying to make following the "29% is dismal [sic]" bit. In any case, its ridiculous to suggest that one player is "shining" while another is not, despite the later consistently outperforming him in every metric. Facts are not subject to a popularity contest no matter how much you try to make it. George has had two very impressive games against the Heat but two games don't supersede an entire body of work.

A team that shoots an absurd amount of threes shouldn't be judged by their threes? I'm I reading this correctly?

Honestly I dont care about melos "body of work", i only care about his play in the postseason as a Knick.

37% 41% 40% is dismal.....and that's combined by being subpar in other areas.

PG is not subpar in the other areas, and his offense isn't that far behind melo's postseason averages.

"An absurd amount of threes" still represents only 35% of the total shots taken during the game and only 29.86% of total shots made. And no, I'm not sure if you've been reading correctly.

For the record Melo's shooting percentages in the playoffs were 38%, 42% and 41% but thats nitpicking. Yes, those shooting percentages are abysmal if you don't have the common sense to acknowledge that he was a lone wolf in each of the three series. Its pretty difficult to score when everyone knows you're the only threat on the floor and can zero in on you. Give him some actual talent and he'd be able to make the difference.

How is the one thing he does is nitpicking? and he certainly couldn't be the lone wolf if he had guys with better %'s starting games right along with him.

Share the ball, those guys in the same starting lineup shot better than he did.

Go look at Raymond Felton's playoff FG% without Melo. Go look at JR Smith's playoff FG% the one season without Melo in Denver. Go look Jared Jefferies FG% without Melo in the playoffs. Go look at Bill Walkers FG% without Melo in the playoffs. Go look at Shawne Williams FG% without Melo in the playoffs. Go look at Jason Kidd's FG% without Melo in the playoffs. All of those guys were prominent rotation player at different time with Melo, that shot similarly poorly without Melo. What you're suggesting is ridiculous. If he passed the ball more, they would have shot just as bad, if not worse and the games probably would not have been as competitive.

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

3G4G wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

Clean wrote:People are quick to forget how unstopable Melo was at the end of the season. All it took was 3 injuries and 12 games before that memory was gone from existance.

his legacy will be defined by the post season for the most part. could be unfair.

Yet Paul George is defining his legacy now....Remember the Melo Legacy Threads that were started 2 times across 2 series and he performed poorly. To be honest even when Melo has been healthy he hasn't performed well in the playoffs as a Knick....

You kill me. Melo performed poorly, which for you is shooting the ball poorly, but George has performed admirably. There is a huge problem with that though.

George shot 40.6% from the field during his first two playoff series while Melo shot 40.6% over the same stretch and number of games (12).

George scored 19.1 ppg over that same stretch while Melo averaged 28.8ppg over the same stretch and number of games.

In a head to head against George, Melo averaged 7.8rpg and George averaged 7.0rpg.

Melo averaged 2.5 turnovers per game and George averaged 4.5.

Melo shot 86.8% from the free throw line while George shot just 60%.

All of this occurred with George averaging more than 4 minutes per game more than Melo and yet George is defining his legacy despite being below par to Melo on most metrics while Melo is Hitler. Makes sense.

You're making the argument for Melo worse by comparing him to a younger 3 year player.

Melo's stats were not better than PG in most areas, the turnovers make it even worse considering melo doesn't run his teams offense like PG does.

PG is a nightly triple double threat who also plays consistent defense....Melo just takes alot of shots, great when he hits them, average NBA player when he misses.....so far pretty subpar as a playoff Knick.

SO basically Melo has to have around 10 rebs battling bigger players for it to be considered as something else and he can't play good D he has to hold a guy to under 10 points?

He certainly cannot be an inconsistent rebounder playing a position that requires consistent boards.

Also he cannot have more turnovers than assists when he isn't running the offense.

And scoring which is his only skill cannot be 37% 41% 40% in the playoffs as a New York Knick....that's actually pretty scrubbish.

Durant shot 42% without a capable no.2 man? Is he "scrubbish" too?

Durant didn't average that for the playoffs like melo did, but nice try.

Durant had two terrible games, prior to those he was ridiculously efficient and was rebounding passing and defending.

now if melo averaged 9 boards and 6 dimes in the playoffs, a few bad shooting nights would be excused.

You're half right and I apologize. After Westbrook went down on April 24th, Durant shot 47% from the field in the 9 games he played in. That number is a bit misleading though because of the type of opponent he played against in the 1st round. The Rockets are an uptempo team, which allowed the game to be easier to score in. Against the Grizzlies whose tempo and personnel is much more akin to the opponents Melo played, Durant only shot 42.1% in the series which is where I got that number. Take away game 4 of the Houston series where he shot 75% from the field, is a clear aberration for any player, and Durant's averages 43.68% shooting from the field which is very much indicative of the 42.1% he shot against the Grizzlies. The point is that no one player makes a team or an individual performance.

Personally, I'm not saying that Melo is as good or a better overall player than Durant. I'm only comparing the two from an offensive perspective, which is clearly appropriate. You can't knock Melo's offensive prowess when you hold no other scorer in his class to that standard.

You know that 42.1% would be an above average post-season for Melo? Regardless, the criticism of Melo was not simply his low FG% but also was that scoring is his only skill (see bold above)

....and Melo never had a guy like Westbrook to be his no.2 like Durant has from the jump. The two seasons Melo had an aged Billups heading into the playoffs, he shot 45.8% and 45.2% from the field. And for all the talk about "scoring being his only skill", he averaged 6rpg and 3apg from the 3 spot in the playoffs which should rank him among the elites at his position. If you're expecting him to be LeBron then the problem has more to do with you than him.

Nope the problem is him, guys with all around games impact the game better.

It's not a fluke that PG gave melo the business on defense and LeBron has been limited as well.

Once again, it's about what Melo has done as a Knick in the playoffs.....Denver runs are irrlevant.

Moot point. Guys with better supporting casts always seemingly have better all around games. George never did anything to Melo that no other team didn't do with their ability to zero in on him. And yeah, I could see how information that shreds your argument is "irrlevant" to you.

37% 41% 40% is his fg% as a Knick.

This was arguably his best teammates and he shot MORE this year than ever before....while being near the bottom in accuracy as a starter.

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

3G4G wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

Clean wrote:People are quick to forget how unstopable Melo was at the end of the season. All it took was 3 injuries and 12 games before that memory was gone from existance.

his legacy will be defined by the post season for the most part. could be unfair.

Yet Paul George is defining his legacy now....Remember the Melo Legacy Threads that were started 2 times across 2 series and he performed poorly. To be honest even when Melo has been healthy he hasn't performed well in the playoffs as a Knick....

You kill me. Melo performed poorly, which for you is shooting the ball poorly, but George has performed admirably. There is a huge problem with that though.

George shot 40.6% from the field during his first two playoff series while Melo shot 40.6% over the same stretch and number of games (12).

George scored 19.1 ppg over that same stretch while Melo averaged 28.8ppg over the same stretch and number of games.

In a head to head against George, Melo averaged 7.8rpg and George averaged 7.0rpg.

Melo averaged 2.5 turnovers per game and George averaged 4.5.

Melo shot 86.8% from the free throw line while George shot just 60%.

All of this occurred with George averaging more than 4 minutes per game more than Melo and yet George is defining his legacy despite being below par to Melo on most metrics while Melo is Hitler. Makes sense.

You're making the argument for Melo worse by comparing him to a younger 3 year player.

Melo's stats were not better than PG in most areas, the turnovers make it even worse considering melo doesn't run his teams offense like PG does.

PG is a nightly triple double threat who also plays consistent defense....Melo just takes alot of shots, great when he hits them, average NBA player when he misses.....so far pretty subpar as a playoff Knick.

SO basically Melo has to have around 10 rebs battling bigger players for it to be considered as something else and he can't play good D he has to hold a guy to under 10 points?

He certainly cannot be an inconsistent rebounder playing a position that requires consistent boards.

Also he cannot have more turnovers than assists when he isn't running the offense.

And scoring which is his only skill cannot be 37% 41% 40% in the playoffs as a New York Knick....that's actually pretty scrubbish.

Durant shot 42% without a capable no.2 man? Is he "scrubbish" too?

Durant didn't average that for the playoffs like melo did, but nice try.

Durant had two terrible games, prior to those he was ridiculously efficient and was rebounding passing and defending.

now if melo averaged 9 boards and 6 dimes in the playoffs, a few bad shooting nights would be excused.

You're half right and I apologize. After Westbrook went down on April 24th, Durant shot 47% from the field in the 9 games he played in. That number is a bit misleading though because of the type of opponent he played against in the 1st round. The Rockets are an uptempo team, which allowed the game to be easier to score in. Against the Grizzlies whose tempo and personnel is much more akin to the opponents Melo played, Durant only shot 42.1% in the series which is where I got that number. Take away game 4 of the Houston series where he shot 75% from the field, is a clear aberration for any player, and Durant's averages 43.68% shooting from the field which is very much indicative of the 42.1% he shot against the Grizzlies. The point is that no one player makes a team or an individual performance.

Personally, I'm not saying that Melo is as good or a better overall player than Durant. I'm only comparing the two from an offensive perspective, which is clearly appropriate. You can't knock Melo's offensive prowess when you hold no other scorer in his class to that standard.

You know that 42.1% would be an above average post-season for Melo? Regardless, the criticism of Melo was not simply his low FG% but also was that scoring is his only skill (see bold above)

....and Melo never had a guy like Westbrook to be his no.2 like Durant has from the jump. The two seasons Melo had an aged Billups heading into the playoffs, he shot 45.8% and 45.2% from the field. And for all the talk about "scoring being his only skill", he averaged 6rpg and 3apg from the 3 spot in the playoffs which should rank him among the elites at his position. If you're expecting him to be LeBron then the problem has more to do with you than him.

I said "is", not "was." You're right that he used to be a good rebounder but now is below average when playing either forward position.

He averages 7.3rpg for his career in the playoffs over 39mpg. This season he averaged 6.6 over 40.1mpg. Does that 0.7rpg make that significant a difference?

When you move from SF to PF, you get about 2 more rebs a game just by accident because you're much closer to the basket. You're confounding age and position.
Melo was outrebounded by 1.4 boards per 48 min this year at SF and 1.3 at PF.

Where did you find that bit of information???

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:
Go look at Raymond Felton's playoff FG% without Melo. Go look at JR Smith's playoff FG% the one season without Melo in Denver. Go look Jared Jefferies FG% without Melo in the playoffs. Go look at Bill Walkers FG% without Melo in the playoffs. Go look at Shawne Williams FG% without Melo in the playoffs. Go look at Jason Kidd's FG% without Melo in the playoffs. All of those guys were prominent rotation player at different time with Melo, that shot similarly poorly without Melo. What you're suggesting is ridiculous. If he passed the ball more, they would have shot just as bad, if not worse and the games probably would not have been as competitive.

I'll make it bigger, and you certainly cannot use that excuse THIS SEASON.

Melo shot 43.3% from the field against the Pacers.

Felton shot 40.9% from the field against the Pacers; Prigioni shot 43.8% from the field; Shumpert shot 37.9% from the field; and Chandler shot 53.6%. Evidently, anything involving numbers is not your strong suit. I'll be waiting to hear your retort about how we should've made Pablo Prigioni and Tyson Chandler go-to scorers though.

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:
Go look at Raymond Felton's playoff FG% without Melo. Go look at JR Smith's playoff FG% the one season without Melo in Denver. Go look Jared Jefferies FG% without Melo in the playoffs. Go look at Bill Walkers FG% without Melo in the playoffs. Go look at Shawne Williams FG% without Melo in the playoffs. Go look at Jason Kidd's FG% without Melo in the playoffs. All of those guys were prominent rotation player at different time with Melo, that shot similarly poorly without Melo. What you're suggesting is ridiculous. If he passed the ball more, they would have shot just as bad, if not worse and the games probably would not have been as competitive.

I'll make it bigger, and you certainly cannot use that excuse THIS SEASON.

Melo shot 43.3% from the field against the Pacers.

Felton shot 40.9% from the field against the Pacers; Prigioni shot 43.8% from the field; Shumpert shot 37.9% from the field; and Chandler shot 53.6%. Evidently, anything involving numbers is not your strong suit. I'll be waiting to hear your retort about how we should've made Pablo Prigioni and Tyson Chandler go-to scorers though.

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

3G4G wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

Clean wrote:People are quick to forget how unstopable Melo was at the end of the season. All it took was 3 injuries and 12 games before that memory was gone from existance.

his legacy will be defined by the post season for the most part. could be unfair.

Yet Paul George is defining his legacy now....Remember the Melo Legacy Threads that were started 2 times across 2 series and he performed poorly. To be honest even when Melo has been healthy he hasn't performed well in the playoffs as a Knick....

You kill me. Melo performed poorly, which for you is shooting the ball poorly, but George has performed admirably. There is a huge problem with that though.

George shot 40.6% from the field during his first two playoff series while Melo shot 40.6% over the same stretch and number of games (12).

George scored 19.1 ppg over that same stretch while Melo averaged 28.8ppg over the same stretch and number of games.

In a head to head against George, Melo averaged 7.8rpg and George averaged 7.0rpg.

Melo averaged 2.5 turnovers per game and George averaged 4.5.

Melo shot 86.8% from the free throw line while George shot just 60%.

All of this occurred with George averaging more than 4 minutes per game more than Melo and yet George is defining his legacy despite being below par to Melo on most metrics while Melo is Hitler. Makes sense.

You're making the argument for Melo worse by comparing him to a younger 3 year player.

Melo's stats were not better than PG in most areas, the turnovers make it even worse considering melo doesn't run his teams offense like PG does.

PG is a nightly triple double threat who also plays consistent defense....Melo just takes alot of shots, great when he hits them, average NBA player when he misses.....so far pretty subpar as a playoff Knick.

SO basically Melo has to have around 10 rebs battling bigger players for it to be considered as something else and he can't play good D he has to hold a guy to under 10 points?

He certainly cannot be an inconsistent rebounder playing a position that requires consistent boards.

Also he cannot have more turnovers than assists when he isn't running the offense.

And scoring which is his only skill cannot be 37% 41% 40% in the playoffs as a New York Knick....that's actually pretty scrubbish.

Durant shot 42% without a capable no.2 man? Is he "scrubbish" too?

Durant didn't average that for the playoffs like melo did, but nice try.

Durant had two terrible games, prior to those he was ridiculously efficient and was rebounding passing and defending.

now if melo averaged 9 boards and 6 dimes in the playoffs, a few bad shooting nights would be excused.

You're half right and I apologize. After Westbrook went down on April 24th, Durant shot 47% from the field in the 9 games he played in. That number is a bit misleading though because of the type of opponent he played against in the 1st round. The Rockets are an uptempo team, which allowed the game to be easier to score in. Against the Grizzlies whose tempo and personnel is much more akin to the opponents Melo played, Durant only shot 42.1% in the series which is where I got that number. Take away game 4 of the Houston series where he shot 75% from the field, is a clear aberration for any player, and Durant's averages 43.68% shooting from the field which is very much indicative of the 42.1% he shot against the Grizzlies. The point is that no one player makes a team or an individual performance.

Personally, I'm not saying that Melo is as good or a better overall player than Durant. I'm only comparing the two from an offensive perspective, which is clearly appropriate. You can't knock Melo's offensive prowess when you hold no other scorer in his class to that standard.

You know that 42.1% would be an above average post-season for Melo? Regardless, the criticism of Melo was not simply his low FG% but also was that scoring is his only skill (see bold above)

....and Melo never had a guy like Westbrook to be his no.2 like Durant has from the jump. The two seasons Melo had an aged Billups heading into the playoffs, he shot 45.8% and 45.2% from the field. And for all the talk about "scoring being his only skill", he averaged 6rpg and 3apg from the 3 spot in the playoffs which should rank him among the elites at his position. If you're expecting him to be LeBron then the problem has more to do with you than him.

I said "is", not "was." You're right that he used to be a good rebounder but now is below average when playing either forward position.

He averages 7.3rpg for his career in the playoffs over 39mpg. This season he averaged 6.6 over 40.1mpg. Does that 0.7rpg make that significant a difference?

When you move from SF to PF, you get about 2 more rebs a game just by accident because you're much closer to the basket. You're confounding age and position.
Melo was outrebounded by 1.4 boards per 48 min this year at SF and 1.3 at PF.

Where did you find that bit of information???

That's my estimate from looking the data over at 82games.com but it's unimportant. You can delete it if you like. The last sentence - being outrebounded at both forward positions - is really what matters.