Bonn1997 wrote:

KnicksChick wrote:

loweyecue wrote:Melo is not a leader just like Kobe wasn't for most part. But PJAX finally got him there. Melo needs to be coached not coddled - Woody doesn't have the balls or the credibility to get Melo to do what he needs to do. When your mindset coming into game 6 of a playoff is that you need to score 60 points for the team to win - you will never be a leader. Somebody needs to tell this him that he gets paid to play basketball for the NEW YORK KNICKS - and this is not all about Melo and his own greatness.

You can't teach someone how to lead. You are either a leader or not. I felt Melo did his best to lead. Maybe it wasn't what you and I wanted to see, but I saw him fighting to win, not arguing calls, getting technicals, or tying his shoe in late game situations (ahem J.R.).

Was JR supposed to keep playing with his shoe untied?

so far the fan base has turned on amare

turned on tyson chandler

turned on JR smith

Yet carmelo just needs help, even though, again, this playoffs he has not played well.. only in spurts... maybe, just maybe he doesn't need more help, but needs to be more help.....

IronWillGiroud wrote:oh man the next day is tough, just got out of bed to showers outside, pacers of all teams,

dude, Pacers are good, I saw this team coming together the past couple of years.. they are not bums man..

y2zipper wrote:I'm not really in the fire Woodson camp. With Amar'e down, he has to rely on Carmelo Anthony and inconsistent and veteran talent. Can we really be surprised that JR Smith is so streaky or that Jason Kidd ran out of gas? Not really. When JR Smith is supposed to be the second option, you got roster problems. The only way this is ever going to get fixed is if the Knicks either ace the draft or if Amare can be integrated in as the starting PF next season.

I think Woodson got a lot of out of this team, but the Knicks just aren't constructed to win against a team like the Pacers, especially when a guy who's supposed to make 15 million to check Hibbert can't do his job. It sucks that it's the same story again, with Carmelo Anthony basically left alone and having to shoot over double-teams because nobody else shows up. The Pacers inconsistent players played better than the Knicks inconsistent players, and that's why the Knicks lost. I don't think playing Prigioni and Copeland more would have made a huge difference since the Knicks didn't have any bodies to defend West and Hibbert. Teams like this are exactly why Melo needs to play the 3, and that can't happen until STAT gets on the court or the Knicks get a stretch 4. Anyway, here's some random thoughts before I sleep...

PG - I think Prigs is a good backup, but at his age and coming from Europe, expecting him to realistically handle more than 20 minutes a night doesn't make sense. It's amazing to me how through Toney Douglas and Lin and Felton and Jason Kidd that this spot is still basically a black hole. The Knicks need to use their first round pick to fix this spot or trade for Eric Bledsoe if they can.

Felton - In fairness, he was very consistent and good throughout the playoffs but is more of a combo guard than a true 1. His ability to penetrate, run the P&R and kick out to shooters are all useful, but I think he'd be better served in JR Smith's role as somebody who can lead a second unit.

Smith is probably a lost cause. I'd still offer him the raise to 5 million over 2 years, a contract that doesn't interfere with the flexibility two years down the road. He has value, but not as the second option or even the third option.

Iman Shumpert looks like the real deal. I keep seeing stuff added to his game, like his 3 pointer and his ability to take guys off the dribble. He's going to be a stud if he learns how to finish at the rim this offseason.

Chandler was downright terrible and I'd probably listen to trade offers. I wouldn't actively look to jettison him for nothing, but I'd move him in the right deal if I could get younger/more athletic.

Most importantly, it's imperative to fix the PF situation. Melo isn't big enough to play the position and the Knicks are going to be a terrible rebounding team as long as he's there. The Knicks also need to add somebody else who is reliable offensively to the mix somehow.

Seconded.

tkf wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

toad wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:Grunwald is gonna need to come up with an actual plan for building up the rest of the roster with players that will fill the needs on this team.

1. Melo is still the core piece but after that you really don't have much.
2. Love Shump and expect him to improve next year. He made a really good come back from ACL surgery.
3. Wish we could upgrade the PG spot. Felton is OK, but hes not a real setup PG and Prigs is a solid backup PG.
4. Wish we had a real SG too. JR is just not the answer from what i've seen. I'd like a player we could trust to make good decisions. Just don't know how we get that kind of player.
5. The Bigs situation is really rough. We've got old guys and not much else. our bigs are really weak too.

With all of that said, I don't feel like this team is that far away from being better. It's not like we had nothing working at all. A lot went right. It just seems bad with all these old guys signed to contracts that we can't play and can't trade.

#1 is our main problem bro.. but you guys just fail to see that.. but whatever..

even if you think he is a great basketball player, he is not the kind of guy you build around.. he is extremely difficult to build around and just should not be done...

Yes and no. It's hard to say we've seen the best we can do to build around Melo when Amar'e's huge contract handcuffs Grunwald from doing so. It's clear they don't complement each other at all. At the same time, I do agree that this attempt to sign old vets in order to maximize Melo's output and win a scoring title has resulted in nothing promising. It really is hard to build solely around a one way player who is not a leader. Melo needs a PG who is going to lead this team, dictate the offense, and get on him to focus on defense. So, I guess it depends on whether you still consider that 'building around' Melo.

carmelo doesn't want any guard who dominates the ball more than him, which is why LIN is gone... and really, at this point in his career, if we have to get babysitters to make him focus on defense, then why bother, at that point he becomes just as much of a liability as amare's contract..

Lin is gone because of the cba. Pretty sure Houston will regret that contract. How many times did Melo wince or massage his shoulder while gutting it out. Can't say the same for Lin. The look of agony on his face from his bruised chest was unbelieveable. Knicks are better off with Felton. Can't imagine what Lin would look like if he had to play with broken fingers.
[]

LOL.. of course you are sure of that.. but they won't regret that anymore than some of us the carmelo trade.. so what does all of that really mean in the end? LIN was fantastic when he was here, that is what matters ..

Felton was 0-7 in an elimination game.. he should have sat down if his fingers were broken... and really why imagine any player playing with broken fingers.. they shouldn't be!

Bonn1997 wrote:

toad wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:Grunwald is gonna need to come up with an actual plan for building up the rest of the roster with players that will fill the needs on this team.

1. Melo is still the core piece but after that you really don't have much.
2. Love Shump and expect him to improve next year. He made a really good come back from ACL surgery.
3. Wish we could upgrade the PG spot. Felton is OK, but hes not a real setup PG and Prigs is a solid backup PG.
4. Wish we had a real SG too. JR is just not the answer from what i've seen. I'd like a player we could trust to make good decisions. Just don't know how we get that kind of player.
5. The Bigs situation is really rough. We've got old guys and not much else. our bigs are really weak too.

With all of that said, I don't feel like this team is that far away from being better. It's not like we had nothing working at all. A lot went right. It just seems bad with all these old guys signed to contracts that we can't play and can't trade.

#1 is our main problem bro.. but you guys just fail to see that.. but whatever..

even if you think he is a great basketball player, he is not the kind of guy you build around.. he is extremely difficult to build around and just should not be done...

Yes and no. It's hard to say we've seen the best we can do to build around Melo when Amar'e's huge contract handcuffs Grunwald from doing so. It's clear they don't complement each other at all. At the same time, I do agree that this attempt to sign old vets in order to maximize Melo's output and win a scoring title has resulted in nothing promising. It really is hard to build solely around a one way player who is not a leader. Melo needs a PG who is going to lead this team, dictate the offense, and get on him to focus on defense. So, I guess it depends on whether you still consider that 'building around' Melo.

If Melo is going to be taking 30% of the team's shots, then we *are* building around him.

Easy: change the coach for one with an actual offensive gameplan. Melo has proven to be willing to pass and his isolation isn't bad as a complementary attack, but not as your main and exclusive offensive strategy.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

toad wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:Grunwald is gonna need to come up with an actual plan for building up the rest of the roster with players that will fill the needs on this team.

1. Melo is still the core piece but after that you really don't have much.
2. Love Shump and expect him to improve next year. He made a really good come back from ACL surgery.
3. Wish we could upgrade the PG spot. Felton is OK, but hes not a real setup PG and Prigs is a solid backup PG.
4. Wish we had a real SG too. JR is just not the answer from what i've seen. I'd like a player we could trust to make good decisions. Just don't know how we get that kind of player.
5. The Bigs situation is really rough. We've got old guys and not much else. our bigs are really weak too.

With all of that said, I don't feel like this team is that far away from being better. It's not like we had nothing working at all. A lot went right. It just seems bad with all these old guys signed to contracts that we can't play and can't trade.

#1 is our main problem bro.. but you guys just fail to see that.. but whatever..

even if you think he is a great basketball player, he is not the kind of guy you build around.. he is extremely difficult to build around and just should not be done...

Yes and no. It's hard to say we've seen the best we can do to build around Melo when Amar'e's huge contract handcuffs Grunwald from doing so. It's clear they don't complement each other at all. At the same time, I do agree that this attempt to sign old vets in order to maximize Melo's output and win a scoring title has resulted in nothing promising. It really is hard to build solely around a one way player who is not a leader. Melo needs a PG who is going to lead this team, dictate the offense, and get on him to focus on defense. So, I guess it depends on whether you still consider that 'building around' Melo.

If Melo is going to be taking 30% of the team's shots, then we *are* building around him.

Easy: change the coach for one with an actual offensive gameplan. Melo has proven to be willing to pass and his isolation isn't bad as a complementary attack, but not as your main and exclusive offensive strategy.

I'm not buying the claim that every NBA coach has failed Melo

Not my narrative.

I believe Melo fought hard and played like his coach wanted him to.

I also believe his current coach forgot what made him so successful in the regular season, that being ball movement, reduced isos, strong defense and adjustments. What's frightening is that the same happened with the strong regular seaskn and postseason disappointing Atlanta Hawks under Woodson.

That's why I hope for a coaching change. But it probably won't happen so I hope for another star. Let me live on that second fantasy for a while...

KnicksChick wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

KnicksChick wrote:

loweyecue wrote:Melo is not a leader just like Kobe wasn't for most part. But PJAX finally got him there. Melo needs to be coached not coddled - Woody doesn't have the balls or the credibility to get Melo to do what he needs to do. When your mindset coming into game 6 of a playoff is that you need to score 60 points for the team to win - you will never be a leader. Somebody needs to tell this him that he gets paid to play basketball for the NEW YORK KNICKS - and this is not all about Melo and his own greatness.

You can't teach someone how to lead. You are either a leader or not. I felt Melo did his best to lead. Maybe it wasn't what you and I wanted to see, but I saw him fighting to win, not arguing calls, getting technicals, or tying his shoe in late game situations (ahem J.R.).

I completely disagree. You can absolutely teach leadership. Leaders are made not born, it's not something genetic you inherit from your parents. When you work with adult professionals at this level as a coach - you are expected and required to teach them to lead. You are not supposed to be teaching them how to play basketball. Unfortunately this culture of hero worship has created adult professionals with the maturity of teenagers. Accepting sub par results and saying they tried is exactly the type of thing that incrementally gets us to this point.

We suck because we accept sucking - as long as Melo gets to be scoring champ or whatever.

So a "leader" is supposed to help lead someone who shoots 0-7? Felton. Someone who can't rebound to save his life? Chandler. Someone who hasn't shot a single point in the entire postseason? Kidd. Someone who parties every night and shoots 1-4348309 from the field? J.R. How do you lead that? Tell me, how is Melo supposed to CARRY that?

Your statement was "you can't teach someone to lead" - I responded to that.

To be leader you have to succeed through others. Ask yourself this - has Melo ever invested anything in Felton's suuccess? Has Melo played the entire season trying to make people around him better? Do you see Melo coaching/mentoring younger players? Does Melo even talk to Novak? In his pregame interview he said he had to score 60 pts for us to win - How about acknowledging I can't win it myself, I need other guys to help me? - common people can do incredible things when they feel appreciated. These guys play in the NBA they are already way better than average at something. Did Lebron need veterans to come in and provide leadership? How can Kyrie Irving be a better leader than Melo? They make people around them better. Melo needs people like Kidd/Tyson to provide leadership because he is only worried about getting is shots.

KnicksChick wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

KnicksChick wrote:

loweyecue wrote:

KnicksChick wrote:

loweyecue wrote:Melo is not a leader just like Kobe wasn't for most part. But PJAX finally got him there. Melo needs to be coached not coddled - Woody doesn't have the balls or the credibility to get Melo to do what he needs to do. When your mindset coming into game 6 of a playoff is that you need to score 60 points for the team to win - you will never be a leader. Somebody needs to tell this him that he gets paid to play basketball for the NEW YORK KNICKS - and this is not all about Melo and his own greatness.

You can't teach someone how to lead. You are either a leader or not. I felt Melo did his best to lead. Maybe it wasn't what you and I wanted to see, but I saw him fighting to win, not arguing calls, getting technicals, or tying his shoe in late game situations (ahem J.R.).

I completely disagree. You can absolutely teach leadership. Leaders are made not born, it's not something genetic you inherit from your parents. When you work with adult professionals at this level as a coach - you are expected and required to teach them to lead. You are not supposed to be teaching them how to play basketball. Unfortunately this culture of hero worship has created adult professionals with the maturity of teenagers. Accepting sub par results and saying they tried is exactly the type of thing that incrementally gets us to this point.

We suck because we accept sucking - as long as Melo gets to be scoring champ or whatever.

So a "leader" is supposed to help lead someone who shoots 0-7? Felton. Someone who can't rebound to save his life? Chandler. Someone who hasn't shot a single point in the entire postseason? Kidd. Someone who parties every night and shoots 1-4348309 from the field? J.R. How do you lead that? Tell me, how is Melo supposed to CARRY that?

Your statement was "you can't teach someone to lead" - I responded to that.

To be leader you have to succeed through others. Ask yourself this - has Melo ever invested anything in Felton's suuccess? Has Melo played the entire season trying to make people around him better? Do you see Melo coaching/mentoring younger players? Does Melo even talk to Novak? In his pregame interview he said he had to score 60 pts for us to win - How about acknowledging I can't win it myself, I need other guys to help me? - common people can do incredible things when they feel appreciated. These guys play in the NBA they are already way better than average at something. Did Lebron need veterans to come in and provide leadership? How can Kyrie Irving be a better leader than Melo? They make people around them better. Melo needs people like Kidd/Tyson to provide leadership because he is only worried about getting is shots.

All of that is cute, except you didn't answer my question.

Actually YES.

tkf wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

tkf wrote:

loweyecue wrote:Championship contenders - NOT EVEN CLOSE
Well coached - NOPE
Good defensive team - HA HA HA
Predictable ISO-heavy stagnant offense, with zero imagination - HELL YES

You must have asuperstar to win
Team with so called superstar - 2-4
Team without a star player (and w/o their Best player) - 4-2
You do the math

SECOND in the EAST - Yeah but we can't beat the Pacers, and we barely beat a injured and hobbled Boston

Greatest closer in the game
Started game on fire, had a lot of help from Shumpert and Cope who were shooting lights out, not able to close.
Completely disappeared in Q4 - I was told some fans would take him over anyone else in the league for last 5 minutes of a game

Returning DPOY
WHO???

Starting PG of the future
0-8 shooting in critical Game 6 loss, I miss John Starks and Charlie Ward

Woodson
All the tough talk about championship contention - tsk tsk
Accountability my @$$ - completely mishandled JR in the playoffs - ZERO accountability
For a greast defensive coach - well his defense actually SUCKS
Less said the better about offense

In retrospect, did exactly what I expected - Good regualr season followed by sucky playoff run. If Rondo wasn't injured probably wouldn't have made it past he first round even if all of our injured players were healthy as well.

good post, but some of us could have told you most of these things were myth... Knick are now what denver was before the carmelo trade, maybe not even as good... seriously go over to a Denver nuggets forum, and ask them how did that work out for them..somehow Dolan felt he could take that Denver mold and make it work here... He is a stubborn fool...

Are Nugget fans still actually on their forum now that its been nearly a month since they've been eliminated?

actually they are still there... let me ask you this, will you not be on this forum come june?

Yes I intend to. Will you if the Knicks improve because you seemed to popup immediately after they got kicked out of the playoffs.

smackeddog wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:I heard an interview on the radio today with a guy from nba tv who said that the Knicks really weren't that good and that Woodson had done an incredible job coaching up the team and managing personalities. I agree but think he will have a better, more cohesive roster next year.

I don't think the problem is that Woodson is a bad coach. That much is reflected in his success with both the Hawks and Knicks during the regular season when his predecessors failed. The problem is that he never learns from his mistakes and has the originality of a boy band. That consistency works well for turning a lottery team around but not a contender that makes their living in the playoffs, which is contingent on teams making adjustments and countering their opponents adjustments.

I think people underestimate his ability to learn from mistakes and adapt- he does end up doing what everyone calls for (even in the regular season he eventually moved Kidd and Amar'e out of the starting lineup), the problem is he's slow to do it out of loyalty. But the irony is he did actually impliment most of what this board was calling for throughout the season.

I would like to see him hire an offensive assistant this offseason though.

A playoff series is 7 games and is often decided before that game 7. If you're slow to do anything, you'll be quickly ousted since the margin for error is so small. This is the epitome of why Woodson is a solid regular season coach and a ****ty playoff coach. I'd like to see him hire an offensive coach as well since our offense is so predictable but this doesn't not solve the underlying problem I had mentioned.