* There aren't a heck of a lot of truly "GREAT" players in the NBA. There are maybe a handful in the NBA right now (Lebron, Durant, Wade, maybe Paul, Parker, Duncan) that just generally play the game right and have the talent to do the amazing on a regular basis. Good news for Miami & San Antonio is that they each have 2 of 'em. However, you also need good teammates to enable greatness. Paul isn't awesome enough to do it by himself. We'll see about Durant.

With Westbrook's talent out of the OKC equation, I wouldn't be surprised if Durant started putting up shooting #s more similar to Carmelo.

* Carmelo goes through stretches where he's in that conversation, but he still takes enough bad shots each game to ruin his percentages. He's talented enough to get up a shot practically anytime he wants. He needs to be more attuned to when his teammates may have higher % shots available. (Carmelo's not alone in this - Kobe's practically the same thing... and all of the "great ones" on the list have driven and shot against double/triple teams at times, or have taken 3's out of turn)

* There's no doubt that Carmelo's FG % has been horrendous in the playoffs. Tough D set up to stop him, slumping or injured teammates (JR, Chandler, Kidd, Novak), poor shot selection, injured shoulder... those are all factors. The only thing he can control himself is make better decisions with his shot selection - and get the ball to his teammates when he thinks they have better shot. He can't just pass when he's got nowhere else to go.

* So yes, we can (and should) continue to build around Carmelo, unless there's a way to upgrade to one of those aforementioned great ones. The door is hypothetically open to acquire Paul via sign & trade...

tkf wrote:

Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

Some of you guys are the most ungrateful SOB's I've ever known. Maybe we trade Melo and get pieces and then get rid of JR will that make you happy? For the first time in 13 years we go to the second round because of Melo. Yes he is having a tough playoff run at scoring but lets be real. We have a center who can't shoot and the rest of the starting line up would not be starters on any of the playoff teams that went to the 2nd round. Some of you remind me of spoiled brats never satisfied. The only way some of you will have peace and satisfaction is get some draft picks and hopeful players and then you will be happy until we loose a few games and then you are ready to trade them or get rid of them. Melo does not have a great supporting cast. This team sinks or swims with Melo. How in the hell do you expect for our starting lineup to compeat with the Pacers? They are big and better. The only way we win is for Melo to put together some great games. it's on his back. We just don't have the players yet. So stop belling about Melo Melo Melo He can't do this by him self and with a Center who can't shoot the rock we are dead in the water. Instead of whining about Melo you better be hoping and praying that he comes back with some great games. Melo has a target on his back saying get him stop him hurt him. Get real we don't have the pieces to beat the Pacers they are too big and too strong. Face the facts and if we loose don't blame Melo alone, blame the team. And the only way we win will be if Melo comes back with great games. So the man you are hating on is the man who is the only one who can save us. If you think there is another way you are dreaming.

I would say felton has been a bigger reason why the knicks made the second round, along with boston just being on a steep decline..

ungrateful? yea we should be on our knees thanking our god he blessed us with stripping our team of every future asset so we can watch carmelo shoot 31% from the field and whine about his shoulder....

And JR smith? rofl... please to even consider this guy a blessing is ridiculous...

ungrateful? really?

Melo does not have a great supporting cast

really? well your boy disagrees with you.. he said this is the best team he has been on!!

This team sinks or swims with Melo.

papa bear, you identified your problem( in my Boss hog voice from Dukes of hazard)

when you sink or swim with a guy who is a career playoff under achiever, and volume shooting brick mason, most of the time you are going to SINK..

And you have the nerve to call fans ungrateful? really?

Get real we don't have the pieces to beat the Pacers they are too big and too strong.

really? but they don't have a STAR right? I thought all you needed was a star? hmmm

which is why some of ungrateful fans have no sympathy... carmelo made this bed.. he didn't want to wait, he wanted his money pronto... ok, he got it.. now stop shooting bricks and play some damn defense!!

First off, He hasn't complained about his shoulder. He answers questions about the shoulder and says it's okay. Simple as that. And yes, he had consecutive games shooting in the 30s ... but so does a lot of "star" players ..believe it or not ,but they bounced back and led their team to success.

Future assets ... he did that? did he sign off on it or management? Basketball is a business, stop injecting personal feelings into it. We're seeing that right now with D. Rose, but as you say, he's a good dude. Melo made the best damn financial decision for himself, which was advised by PROFESSIONAL accountants and managers. And again what future assets did we give up? Gallo? because other than that we're missing no one else, NO ONE ELSE.

A lot of negative threads that were made during the season turned out to be completely wrong. And sadly, if we advance to the ECF it will be another argument about something else instead of enjoying the ride ... while other teams are sitting home right now, we're 1 step closer to reaching every single goal we set out to achieve this year.

And another thing, I'm tired of all the pretending ... the reason we were semi-good with the old team was because of FELTON AND AMARE! Where would we be now with the old team and Amare who's unable to stay on the floor for more than 1 week.

Done with this discussion. About to enjoy this run. I'm not a person to hold onto the past or keep repeating the same talking points. Good luck ... and although I quoted you TKF this lil rant was not directly towards you.

Let's take game 2 and worry about all the other non sense in the off season. And let me make this clear, criticizing the team is not bad, I admit we need a lot of improvement to even start thinking about a championship, but a lot of this is getting crazy. We loss one game and all hell break out, but it was very quiet during our run in April and during all the other achievements we had. Consistency, fairness and balance is what's missing.

fishmike wrote:

NUPE wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Papabear wrote:Papabear Says

Some of you guys are the most ungrateful SOB's I've ever known. Maybe we trade Melo and get pieces and then get rid of JR will that make you happy? For the first time in 13 years we go to the second round because of Melo. Yes he is having a tough playoff run at scoring but lets be real. We have a center who can't shoot and the rest of the starting line up would not be starters on any of the playoff teams that went to the 2nd round. Some of you remind me of spoiled brats never satisfied. The only way some of you will have peace and satisfaction is get some draft picks and hopeful players and then you will be happy until we loose a few games and then you are ready to trade them or get rid of them. Melo does not have a great supporting cast. This team sinks or swims with Melo. How in the hell do you expect for our starting lineup to compeat with the Pacers? They are big and better. The only way we win is for Melo to put together some great games. it's on his back. We just don't have the players yet. So stop belling about Melo Melo Melo He can't do this by him self and with a Center who can't shoot the rock we are dead in the water. Instead of whining about Melo you better be hoping and praying that he comes back with some great games. Melo has a target on his back saying get him stop him hurt him. Get real we don't have the pieces to beat the Pacers they are too big and too strong. Face the facts and if we loose don't blame Melo alone, blame the team. And the only way we win will be if Melo comes back with great games. So the man you are hating on is the man who is the only one who can save us. If you think there is another way you are dreaming.

Papabear we werent discussing gratitude in this thread, just basketball. The basketball question of the day is how do you build a contender around an offensive centerpiece with such a low shooting %? Can it be done? Ungrateful minds want to know!

Well, we will see how it pans out. Melo AND JR need to shoot better but FG% is greatly over-emphasized on this board. There is more at play here than FG%. I wish you guys would stop this.

stop what? Melo takes a massive amount of shots and misses a massive amount of shots.

Nupe... how about you just answer the question. Can you build a contender around a guy who takes 25+ shots a game and shoots 41%?

FG% isnt some magic #, like if Melo shoots 45% he's OK. This guy is a volume shooter who goes very cold for extended periods of time. Those periods of time costs his team wins. Melo has a worst winning % in the playoffs of any active player. Despite Amare, this was the year right? Best supporting cast he's ever had (Melo's words). His coach. Melo was in the MVP discussion.. so lets discuss.

The focus on 50 FG% is inappropriate because it fails to take into account things like defense and the fact that Melo being on the floor creates open opportunities for other players even when he shoots like crap. The focus on Melo's fg% totally ignores the fact that the Knicks got nothing out of Tyson Chandler and JR also shot horrendously. The Knicks gave up over 100 points to a Pacer team that struggles to score. There is improvement to be made in MANY places.

If 50% FG from your key player were a credible barometer for team success then the Clippers would still be in the playoffs and the Laker's never would have won a title with Kobe pumping up dozens of shot at low %'s for years.

Melo needs to shoot better but this focus on 50% is nonsensical. If Melo and JR shoot better coupled with the Knicks playing hard on both ends then the Knicks will most likely get to the ECF.

Hersports85 wrote:

technomaster wrote:A few thoughts:

* There aren't a heck of a lot of truly "GREAT" players in the NBA. There are maybe a handful in the NBA right now (Lebron, Durant, Wade, maybe Paul, Parker, Duncan) that just generally play the game right and have the talent to do the amazing on a regular basis. Good news for Miami & San Antonio is that they each have 2 of 'em. However, you also need good teammates to enable greatness. Paul isn't awesome enough to do it by himself. We'll see about Durant.

With Westbrook's talent out of the OKC equation, I wouldn't be surprised if Durant started putting up shooting #s more similar to Carmelo.

* Carmelo goes through stretches where he's in that conversation, but he still takes enough bad shots each game to ruin his percentages. He's talented enough to get up a shot practically anytime he wants. He needs to be more attuned to when his teammates may have higher % shots available. (Carmelo's not alone in this - Kobe's practically the same thing... and all of the "great ones" on the list have driven and shot against double/triple teams at times, or have taken 3's out of turn)

* There's no doubt that Carmelo's FG % has been horrendous in the playoffs. Tough D set up to stop him, slumping or injured teammates (JR, Chandler, Kidd, Novak), poor shot selection, injured shoulder... those are all factors. The only thing he can control himself is make better decisions with his shot selection - and get the ball to his teammates when he thinks they have better shot. He can't just pass when he's got nowhere else to go.

* So yes, we can (and should) continue to build around Carmelo, unless there's a way to upgrade to one of those aforementioned great ones. The door is hypothetically open to acquire Paul via sign & trade...

Good Post and understanding of the game.

This is just a reality.

What you hope for as a Knick fan that someone else (namely JR, cause if both he and Melo are cold Knicks have ZERO shot at winning) gets hot, the other team cant hit shots (see Boston series) or Woodson comes up something better then the iso-Joe option he's running now.

Knicks have the talent and ability to beat anyone. What we could really use is an offense in game two, rather than watching Melo and JR pound the rock and force contested jumpers or attacking the basket when the Pacer front line are all there waiting at the basket.

I think the 4th quarter in game 6 vs the Celtics was a microcosm of what it takes to win in the playoffs, but it does lead to uglyball.
The Knicks grew their large lead, but started missing some shots and the Celtics made a run. If you keep shooting 3's with 18 seconds on the clock, you get high % shots, but if you miss you give your opponents more time to get back into the game.

Woodson deliberately switched the team's game plan to a "prevent" style of offense to tick time off the clock, albeit putting Carmelo & JR into positions where they had to take and make highly contested shots. Well, Carmelo & JR made just enough to secure the win, aided by the big steal by Shumpert.

Would we have preferred if the Knicks played their normal offense? Well, it would have been a lot less frustrating to watch... and might have helped the Knicks FG%s.

The point is that it's complicated and very situational. Historically Carmelo has been one of the top two 4th quarter scorers over the course of his career. And that means something, given how the final 6 minutes of games always turns out.

JR played high school ball in scenic Lakewood, NJ, where the Crips and 1%ers were large and in charge before the Mexican gangs took over which are in the process of being displaced by the largest concentration of Hasidic Jews on the planet.

I know, I lived in a community a few blocks away from Lakewood HS for 10 years; crack vials, shootings and other niceties were a way of life then. JR knows mean streets.

Bonn1997 wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:Melo is a beast.

Chris Paul is a beast and he didnt make it out of the first round.

Stars need help. Melo is playing with castaways.

Melo and JR's supporting cast shot .553 from the field yesterday. That's not good enough?!

jrodmc wrote:Try again.

JR played high school ball in scenic Lakewood, NJ, where the Crips and 1%ers were large and in charge before the Mexican gangs took over which are in the process of being displaced by the largest concentration of Hasidic Jews on the planet.

I know, I lived in a community a few blocks away from Lakewood HS for 10 years; crack vials, shootings and other niceties were a way of life then. JR knows mean streets.

He was there for 2 years, he also went to Steinert in Hamilton, NJ; McCorristin in Hamilton, NJ; and St Benedict's Prep.

Bippity10 wrote:

Allanfan20 wrote:^Like avoiding dribbling into triple teams?

Actually that's perfectly acceptable

Oh my bad. Wait, wait how about this one?... Like stop jacking up contested shots when you have perfectly solid shooters wide open?... Shooters such as Felton and Shumpert.