dk7th wrote:

VCoug wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

3G4G wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

MS wrote:Walsh made one big miss at the point guard spot (Jennings, Lawson Holiday)for Hill

He made several strong pics (Douglas, Fields, Shumpert, Harrleson) for where they were positioned

One great signing Mozgov at 3MM is great value

Amare was a miss, but Mike D played him major minutes, perhaps they should have allowed Crawford and Zach to play themselves into more value. But there was at least that ability to make some moves left.

My problem is this. Let's just say we kept the team we had and currently have Crawford-Shumpert-Gallo-Zach-Lee-Chandler-Douglas does that team beat this one? I think the answer is yes. Either way we are likely a one and done, but don't sell a plan, **** up the plan and then expect fans to buy into the fact that we have put together a good team. The Celtics managed to get a number of good players in the draft and free agency and get younger. The Nets are a better team than the Knicks as are the Sixers and Pacers. So that puts us in the 5th slot and that's not even in stone.

He also signed Felton to a two year deal and probably would have kept a pick/young player from the Melo trade that he could use in future trades.
That’s the difference between Walsh and Dolan, Walsh always had a plan B in case plan A didn’t work, Dolan has no plan and this is why he is giving out 3 year contract to 39 years old players.

[b]Walsh got raked over the coals in the McGrady trade so I am not sure if he could have kept a pick. Maybe he keeps Moz but I think the first round pick was going to Denver.[/b]

He publicly commented trade remorse on the MrGrady deal

And by keeping Mozgov, the Knicks may have kept Billups and his expiring contract (instead of waving him for Chandler ) and use the cap space on a premier point guard instead, since our center position would have being in some ways cover and less of a need at that point.

Absolutely. He was a throw in that was completely unexpected. He is at least a big body.

Gentlemen..It was a good thing that MDA and the need for an elite PG is no longer here...Defense wins Championships...Pick and roll masters rarely do..Ask the Utah Jazz...

C'mon! The Utah Jazz? How close did they come to beating the great MJ?

How do you think they'd do today?

Their PnR was incredible.

How close was it...They won two games...I guess closer than OKC last year...

1990/91: Swept the Knicks in 3, &^ers in 5, won 4 straight against the Pistons, won 4 straight to beat the Lakers in 5.
1991/92: Knicks in 7, Cavs in 6, Portland in 6
92/93: Swept Atlanta in 3, Swept the Cavs, Beat Knicks in 6 after losing first 2
I could go on

All teams who don't force a game 7 "only" win 2 games in a 7 game series.

If you're going to judge the merits of a player/coach/system based on whether they beat MJ's Bulls then every system is not a championship system.

OK thanks for the stats...But who is judging a system based on whether or not they beat the Bulls?..I don't recall ever bringing up the Bulls at all..The broader point which will be missed by most here and obviously by you is the is that MrKnickShot has been saying OKC had not accomplished anything because they lost to the Heat like we did 4-1...He is now saying that Utah is was incredible, they almost BEAT the Bulls in the finals losing 4-2...Where is the consistency??..But my original comment was that defense wins Championships, pick and role master rarely wins Championships...Do you have any stats to dispute my assessment???

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=7276

There you go, those are the stats. Defense is more important than offense but you can't just ignore the offense. They're both very important for any team looking to win a championship.

if defense is more important-- and i agree 100%-- then why do the knicks have not one but two of their most expensive players playing at a mediocre at best level? is that a recipe for success? what was dolan thinking? or was he thinking?

Umm, who cares? For the most part, defense doesn't come down to one player and I don't think you can find a good defensive team that every player on the floor is good defensively. And, like I've been saying all offseason, the Knicks are very good defensively and we finished last season the 5th best defensive team in the league. Our problem is on the offensive side where Melo, Tyson, and Amare don't look like they can play effectively at the same time and we don't have the shooters to take advantage when other teams double Melo or Amare.

holfresh wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

3G4G wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

MS wrote:Walsh made one big miss at the point guard spot (Jennings, Lawson Holiday)for Hill

He made several strong pics (Douglas, Fields, Shumpert, Harrleson) for where they were positioned

One great signing Mozgov at 3MM is great value

Amare was a miss, but Mike D played him major minutes, perhaps they should have allowed Crawford and Zach to play themselves into more value. But there was at least that ability to make some moves left.

My problem is this. Let's just say we kept the team we had and currently have Crawford-Shumpert-Gallo-Zach-Lee-Chandler-Douglas does that team beat this one? I think the answer is yes. Either way we are likely a one and done, but don't sell a plan, **** up the plan and then expect fans to buy into the fact that we have put together a good team. The Celtics managed to get a number of good players in the draft and free agency and get younger. The Nets are a better team than the Knicks as are the Sixers and Pacers. So that puts us in the 5th slot and that's not even in stone.

He also signed Felton to a two year deal and probably would have kept a pick/young player from the Melo trade that he could use in future trades.
That’s the difference between Walsh and Dolan, Walsh always had a plan B in case plan A didn’t work, Dolan has no plan and this is why he is giving out 3 year contract to 39 years old players.

[b]Walsh got raked over the coals in the McGrady trade so I am not sure if he could have kept a pick. Maybe he keeps Moz but I think the first round pick was going to Denver.[/b]

He publicly commented trade remorse on the MrGrady deal

And by keeping Mozgov, the Knicks may have kept Billups and his expiring contract (instead of waving him for Chandler ) and use the cap space on a premier point guard instead, since our center position would have being in some ways cover and less of a need at that point.

Absolutely. He was a throw in that was completely unexpected. He is at least a big body.

Gentlemen..It was a good thing that MDA and the need for an elite PG is no longer here...Defense wins Championships...Pick and roll masters rarely do..Ask the Utah Jazz...

C'mon! The Utah Jazz? How close did they come to beating the great MJ?

How do you think they'd do today?

Their PnR was incredible.

How close was it...They won two games...I guess closer than OKC last year...

1990/91: Swept the Knicks in 3, &^ers in 5, won 4 straight against the Pistons, won 4 straight to beat the Lakers in 5.
1991/92: Knicks in 7, Cavs in 6, Portland in 6
92/93: Swept Atlanta in 3, Swept the Cavs, Beat Knicks in 6 after losing first 2
I could go on

All teams who don't force a game 7 "only" win 2 games in a 7 game series.

If you're going to judge the merits of a player/coach/system based on whether they beat MJ's Bulls then every system is not a championship system.

OK thanks for the stats...But who is judging a system based on whether or not they beat the Bulls?..I don't recall ever bringing up the Bulls at all..The broader point which will be missed by most here and obviously by you is the is that MrKnickShot has been saying OKC had not accomplished anything because they lost to the Heat like we did 4-1...He is now saying that Utah is was incredible, they almost BEAT the Bulls in the finals losing 4-2...Where is the consistency??..But my original comment was that defense wins Championships, pick and role master rarely wins Championships...Do you have any stats to dispute my assessment???

Personally I agree with you that defense does win championships (+ some offense), but I really don’t understand why you keep bringing the pick and roll thing here really. There are different types of systems and point guards in the NBA so NO, not everyone has to average 10 assists (like Nash) in order to be considered dominant/great at this position. D. Rose is a low assist guy yet he was leading his team to the best NBA record just two seasons ago. Do you think Nash is going to average 10 APG now that he has to share the ball handling with Kobe? Is he less of a point guard if he doesn’t?

The fact is that Lebron average 7 APG for his career and Wade 6 APG for his career that’s 13 APG from your backcourt (last season it was 10 APG between them,) so if this is not great point guard play than educate me please.

dk7th wrote:

VCoug wrote:

dk7th wrote:

VCoug wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

3G4G wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

MS wrote:Walsh made one big miss at the point guard spot (Jennings, Lawson Holiday)for Hill

He made several strong pics (Douglas, Fields, Shumpert, Harrleson) for where they were positioned

One great signing Mozgov at 3MM is great value

Amare was a miss, but Mike D played him major minutes, perhaps they should have allowed Crawford and Zach to play themselves into more value. But there was at least that ability to make some moves left.

My problem is this. Let's just say we kept the team we had and currently have Crawford-Shumpert-Gallo-Zach-Lee-Chandler-Douglas does that team beat this one? I think the answer is yes. Either way we are likely a one and done, but don't sell a plan, **** up the plan and then expect fans to buy into the fact that we have put together a good team. The Celtics managed to get a number of good players in the draft and free agency and get younger. The Nets are a better team than the Knicks as are the Sixers and Pacers. So that puts us in the 5th slot and that's not even in stone.

He also signed Felton to a two year deal and probably would have kept a pick/young player from the Melo trade that he could use in future trades.
That’s the difference between Walsh and Dolan, Walsh always had a plan B in case plan A didn’t work, Dolan has no plan and this is why he is giving out 3 year contract to 39 years old players.

[b]Walsh got raked over the coals in the McGrady trade so I am not sure if he could have kept a pick. Maybe he keeps Moz but I think the first round pick was going to Denver.[/b]

He publicly commented trade remorse on the MrGrady deal

And by keeping Mozgov, the Knicks may have kept Billups and his expiring contract (instead of waving him for Chandler ) and use the cap space on a premier point guard instead, since our center position would have being in some ways cover and less of a need at that point.

Absolutely. He was a throw in that was completely unexpected. He is at least a big body.

Gentlemen..It was a good thing that MDA and the need for an elite PG is no longer here...Defense wins Championships...Pick and roll masters rarely do..Ask the Utah Jazz...

C'mon! The Utah Jazz? How close did they come to beating the great MJ?

How do you think they'd do today?

Their PnR was incredible.

How close was it...They won two games...I guess closer than OKC last year...

1990/91: Swept the Knicks in 3, &^ers in 5, won 4 straight against the Pistons, won 4 straight to beat the Lakers in 5.
1991/92: Knicks in 7, Cavs in 6, Portland in 6
92/93: Swept Atlanta in 3, Swept the Cavs, Beat Knicks in 6 after losing first 2
I could go on

All teams who don't force a game 7 "only" win 2 games in a 7 game series.

If you're going to judge the merits of a player/coach/system based on whether they beat MJ's Bulls then every system is not a championship system.

OK thanks for the stats...But who is judging a system based on whether or not they beat the Bulls?..I don't recall ever bringing up the Bulls at all..The broader point which will be missed by most here and obviously by you is the is that MrKnickShot has been saying OKC had not accomplished anything because they lost to the Heat like we did 4-1...He is now saying that Utah is was incredible, they almost BEAT the Bulls in the finals losing 4-2...Where is the consistency??..But my original comment was that defense wins Championships, pick and role master rarely wins Championships...Do you have any stats to dispute my assessment???

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=7276

There you go, those are the stats. Defense is more important than offense but you can't just ignore the offense. They're both very important for any team looking to win a championship.

if defense is more important-- and i agree 100%-- then why do the knicks have not one but two of their most expensive players playing at a mediocre at best level? is that a recipe for success? what was dolan thinking? or was he thinking?

Umm, who cares? For the most part, defense doesn't come down to one player and I don't think you can find a good defensive team that every player on the floor is good defensively. And, like I've been saying all offseason, the Knicks are very good defensively and we finished last season the 5th best defensive team in the league. Our problem is on the offensive side where Melo, Tyson, and Amare don't look like they can play effectively at the same time and we don't have the shooters to take advantage when other teams double Melo or Amare.

the less effective the offense is the more dependent the team will need to be on its defense. it's a simple equation. so since you agree that the offense is and will likely remain troubling, then you should also agree that the defense needs to be among the top in the league this season. the question, then, is will it? when your most expensive player is not above average let alone good at it while not being able to create for others you have a big problem. when your second most expensive player is well below average at it and he too does not create for others then the problem is compounded: it puts undue stress on the real defenders who must take up the beaucoup amount of slack and gets them into foul trouble. and lest we forget: this team is OLD.... groin pulls, calf strains will be in abundance.

you should care.

We were the 5th best defensive team in the league last year and we'll probably be a little better this year. JR was above average to pretty good on defense last year and he only played about half the season. And, anything we get out of Camby, who still plays at a near elite level defensively, will help out as well.

holfresh wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

holfresh wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

holfresh wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

3G4G wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

MS wrote:Walsh made one big miss at the point guard spot (Jennings, Lawson Holiday)for Hill

He made several strong pics (Douglas, Fields, Shumpert, Harrleson) for where they were positioned

One great signing Mozgov at 3MM is great value

Amare was a miss, but Mike D played him major minutes, perhaps they should have allowed Crawford and Zach to play themselves into more value. But there was at least that ability to make some moves left.

My problem is this. Let's just say we kept the team we had and currently have Crawford-Shumpert-Gallo-Zach-Lee-Chandler-Douglas does that team beat this one? I think the answer is yes. Either way we are likely a one and done, but don't sell a plan, **** up the plan and then expect fans to buy into the fact that we have put together a good team. The Celtics managed to get a number of good players in the draft and free agency and get younger. The Nets are a better team than the Knicks as are the Sixers and Pacers. So that puts us in the 5th slot and that's not even in stone.

He also signed Felton to a two year deal and probably would have kept a pick/young player from the Melo trade that he could use in future trades.
That’s the difference between Walsh and Dolan, Walsh always had a plan B in case plan A didn’t work, Dolan has no plan and this is why he is giving out 3 year contract to 39 years old players.

[b]Walsh got raked over the coals in the McGrady trade so I am not sure if he could have kept a pick. Maybe he keeps Moz but I think the first round pick was going to Denver.[/b]

He publicly commented trade remorse on the MrGrady deal

And by keeping Mozgov, the Knicks may have kept Billups and his expiring contract (instead of waving him for Chandler ) and use the cap space on a premier point guard instead, since our center position would have being in some ways cover and less of a need at that point.

Absolutely. He was a throw in that was completely unexpected. He is at least a big body.

Gentlemen..It was a good thing that MDA and the need for an elite PG is no longer here...Defense wins Championships...Pick and roll masters rarely do..Ask the Utah Jazz...

C'mon! The Utah Jazz? How close did they come to beating the great MJ?

How do you think they'd do today?

Their PnR was incredible.

How close was it...They won two games...I guess closer than OKC last year...

1990/91: Swept the Knicks in 3, &^ers in 5, won 4 straight against the Pistons, won 4 straight to beat the Lakers in 5.
1991/92: Knicks in 7, Cavs in 6, Portland in 6
92/93: Swept Atlanta in 3, Swept the Cavs, Beat Knicks in 6 after losing first 2
I could go on

All teams who don't force a game 7 "only" win 2 games in a 7 game series.

If you're going to judge the merits of a player/coach/system based on whether they beat MJ's Bulls then every system is not a championship system.

OK thanks for the stats...But who is judging a system based on whether or not they beat the Bulls?..I don't recall ever bringing up the Bulls at all..The broader point which will be missed by most here and obviously by you is the is that MrKnickShot has been saying OKC had not accomplished anything because they lost to the Heat like we did 4-1...He is now saying that Utah is was incredible, they almost BEAT the Bulls in the finals losing 4-2...Where is the consistency??..But my original comment was that defense wins Championships, pick and role master rarely wins Championships...Do you have any stats to dispute my assessment???

Personally I agree with you that defense does win championships (+ some offense), but I really don’t understand why you keep bringing the pick and roll thing here really. There are different types of systems and point guards in the NBA so NO, not everyone has to average 10 assists (like Nash) in order to be considered dominant/great at this position. D. Rose is a low assist guy yet he was leading his team to the best NBA record just two seasons ago. Do you think Nash is going to average 10 APG now that he has to share the ball handling with Kobe? Is he less of a point guard if he doesn’t?

The fact is that Lebron average 7 APG for his career and Wade 6 APG for his career that’s 13 APG from your backcourt (last season it was 10 APG between them,) so if this is not great point guard play than educate me please.

I bring up pick and roll because this discussion is centered around bringing in a PG about the time when MDA was coach, this was when Billups got amnestied and we signed Chandler..It was the system he was running, no???...My original comment was based on MDA system which whose emphasis wasn't on defense...The argument, in my mind, was to bolster MDA style of play by bringing an above average PG...I said pick and roll masters rarely win Championships and it's true...We should go in the direction of defense first...That was the scope of my discussion...But Knickshot later said you need great guard play or great low post play to win Championships...I said look at the Heat, they didn't have great guard play and they won... He is saying LeBron played the role of a great guard and I disagreed because LeBron guard play was average..LeBron is a great player but he is not Nash, Rondo or Chris Paul when it comes to guard play...Now the crux of this discussion has to do with the Knicks and it's needs...I think the Knicks can compete with a healthy Amare and Melo...Felton for me is an adequate enough PG to get us there...If Felton can play the way he did two years ago, and he has shown some flashes he can..I think it will be good enough...But a big problem for me is the help off the bench...Our bench is just too old to compete...But that's my argument....

OK I understand now, however, I still disagree with you on a couple of things.
Personally I believe that if Lebron set his mind, he could probably average 9 to 10 APG, but why would he? The guy can score better than 99% of the players in the NBA, guys like Nash, CP3, or Rondo, don’t have Lebron’s scoring ability (and they don’t have to share the ball handling responsibility as much with a Wade type player) so they have to maximize what they do best which is passing.

As far as Felton, I believe he is a descent point guard, but without a strong two guard play, we are really going nowhere with him in the backcourt, and that’s why I believe we need to upgrade his position, since I’m expecting Shumpert to eventually be our starting 2 guard.
Also, Felton playing like he did two years ago is not happening, that guy left the moment MDA resigned, you should lower your expectation a little bit.

holfresh wrote:I tend to post from a realistic point of view...I want to target who is realistic and who can help us...I would love to have Chris Paul and Tony Parker...Steve Nash and Rondo...Or even DWill...It's not happening...So in my eyes..Felton is a solid all around player, defense and offense, who can help and is very attainable, we got him....You really can't say what he can and can't do down the road, let's be honest...Now does he have to pick up his game a bit to get us there, sure..But he has demonstrated he can do this and has done it before his first time here...To say he can't do it again, well I don't get that line of thinking...He doesn't need MDA as he showed a few nights ago...People now hate him because he is Lin's replacement, go figure...I'm trying to get guys out there who can help us win period, no agendas...

As far as Bron, I really don't agree with you guys, I think he is a very good passer for the position then folks tend to extrapolate what they think he can do...He isn't making passes the way the other guys are...He still have that small hesitancy where the top PG just let it flow...But that's just me looking at it...

Me too, I usually try my best to post from a realistic point of view, however, I use the player’s NBA career to back up my opinion, not just my preference or personal feelings toward that player.

Felton was very attainable because Denver got rid of him and Portland decided not to offer him a contract after his VERY disappointed season last year, and this after the Bobcats decided not to offer him a contract when his rookie contract expired a couple of years ago.
Did Felton have success while with the Knicks? Sure, but the coach (MDA) that runs a point guard friendly system is no longer here, and I don’t know if you know but Woodson’s system doesn’t allow his point guards to handle the ball as much.
So I can certainly say that the Felton that we saw here the last time is not coming back, can Felton has his moments? Sure, this is the NBA and many players can, but to average 17 PPG and 9 APG again? I’ll have to see it to believe it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4496885

holfresh wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

holfresh wrote:I tend to post from a realistic point of view...I want to target who is realistic and who can help us...I would love to have Chris Paul and Tony Parker...Steve Nash and Rondo...Or even DWill...It's not happening...So in my eyes..Felton is a solid all around player, defense and offense, who can help and is very attainable, we got him....You really can't say what he can and can't do down the road, let's be honest...Now does he have to pick up his game a bit to get us there, sure..But he has demonstrated he can do this and has done it before his first time here...To say he can't do it again, well I don't get that line of thinking...He doesn't need MDA as he showed a few nights ago...People now hate him because he is Lin's replacement, go figure...I'm trying to get guys out there who can help us win period, no agendas...

As far as Bron, I really don't agree with you guys, I think he is a very good passer for the position then folks tend to extrapolate what they think he can do...He isn't making passes the way the other guys are...He still have that small hesitancy where the top PG just let it flow...But that's just me looking at it...

Me too, I usually try my best to post from a realistic point of view, however, I use the player’s NBA career to back up my opinion, not just my preference or personal feelings toward that player.

Felton was very attainable because Denver got rid of him and Portland decided not to offer him a contract after his VERY disappointed season last year, and this after the Bobcats decided not to offer him a contract when his rookie contract expired a couple of years ago.
Did Felton have success while with the Knicks? Sure, but the coach (MDA) that runs a point guard friendly system is no longer here, and I don’t know if you know but Woodson’s system doesn’t allow his point guards to handle the ball as much.
So I can certainly say that the Felton that we saw here the last time is not coming back, can Felton has his moments? Sure, this is the NBA and many players can, but to average 17 PPG and 9 APG again? I’ll have to see it to believe it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4496885

They have no choice but to have Felton play the way he did a few years back as long as Amare is on the roster...They have to run the pick and roll, period...That wont change..Melo will get his touches but pick and roll is a must..I can't say what really happened when Felton wasn't here..I do know what happens when he is here, he plays hard...Some say he let himself go because he was disappointed he was traded from NY..He is back in shape and balling...Do you have any complaints of what you are seeing so far??..I want him to continue doing what he is doing...These guys aren't in game shape yet...Charlotte didn't want to pay him...In Denver, he was upset that he was sharing the role with Lawson so they traded him...I think we got him for a steal..We didn't have a better option...

I’m sure they will have some pick and roll, but I don’t think is going to be the same like before considering that Melo is our main and best offensive player this time (and he has yet learned to play without the ball), not Amare.
As far as me having complaints for Felton, NOT AT ALL, the guy is a decent player on a good salary; however, if the Knicks wants to compete for a Championship, they must upgrade the talent in the back court, either at the point or shooting guard.