tkf wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

tkf wrote:

3G4G wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:Wonderful. He had a good series being the primary scorer on the team - he is their third best player. You can do better then that - to pick an award for a series.

Are you 10 years old? Your posts are extremely annoying. Grow the phuck up!

So you're minimizing an NBA Finals MVP accomplishment? Pierce wasn't their 3rd best player when he won the award. You realize he got this over Kobe right?

3g, this guy is suspect with his post.. it is funny how he big ups dk and nalod when they are pretty much saying the same thing we are, just with a different tone.. he then resorts to the name calling, the silly little comments like being stuck on someones scrotum, and isn't it funny how this guys continually brings up gallo's name, yet I have yet to do so... it is the typical loser argument mentality... when he doesn't have a point, resort to name calling, and asking people are they 10 years old...

he then marginalizes pierce finals MVP as being a series award, just a series award... LOL.. but he was creaming his pants as carmelo was dropping threes vs some 3rd world country..... go figure...

TKF, you can use your cronies to make yourself feel better.

The scrotum line was specifically for you since your way of posting is to attack the poster with "Melo Jock Rider ..."

I don't post that way.

Nalod is a dissenting poster very often but he makes sense in his arguments and is fair. We don't have to agree but we certainly don't have to be dumb.

3G like you, enjoy attacking the poster. He did it from the first day he posted. Perhaps you are the same person, who knows.

I try to have cordial arguments but hot flamers like you do not. Can I be derisive at times? Sure but can you not be derisive ever? I don't think so.

When an argument is weak - resorting to ad hominem attacks is one way to deal with it. Am I guilty of it? I am sure that I am at times but that is not my MO.

you must have me mixed up... I don't use the term, melo jock riders... melo lovers.. yes.... jock riders, that is something I try not to use....

funny you call me a flamer, refer to other posters as cronies... yet say you try to have cordial arguments... how odd, wouldn't you say?

I think you are letting your emotions get the best of you....

You fight fire with fire. Immature to stoop? Maybe. I don't initiate these degraded arguments.

Anyway, I did not mean "flamer" the way you took it - and it was a wrong choice of words. "Cronies" is not on the same level - obviously.

You, IMHO are the most contentious poster here. Is it true as someone stated that you were once completely tame? I don't think it would hurt to tone it down a bit. I know that you are pissed and you are venting and I don't blame anyone for being upset and the many years of failure in this organization.

I will try to do my part to tone it down since it is getting out of hand.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

TheloniusMonk wrote:Men lie. Women lie. Numbers don't. Thanx for that breakdown, MKS. Had no idea Melo's shooting percentage was ahead of Kobe's and Peirce's. Nice.

IUf numbers dont lie--Ill give you Carmelo for Kobe-- by the #s its a deal right?

Not if you look at their win shares

Bonn, talk about pathetic! Well all else fails, lets go to the all encompassing Win Shares.

Melo the last 2 years had a WS of 157 and 160. Pretty good, no?

Do numbers lie?

2 years ago it was .127.
.160 was an anomaly for Melo but is pretty good, yes. Wins Produced, which I should have cited earlier, doesn't paint a good picture of Melo last year. I would not make a big deal one way or the other about only a one season sample.

Since he has been a Knick he has average 158.5. That's an anomaly? Isn't that a bit of a spin? Are thought that you were sold on Win Shares? At least you were.

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

TheloniusMonk wrote:Men lie. Women lie. Numbers don't. Thanx for that breakdown, MKS. Had no idea Melo's shooting percentage was ahead of Kobe's and Peirce's. Nice.

IUf numbers dont lie--Ill give you Carmelo for Kobe-- by the #s its a deal right?

Not if you look at their win shares

Bonn, talk about pathetic! Well all else fails, lets go to the all encompassing Win Shares.

Melo the last 2 years had a WS of 157 and 160. Pretty good, no?

Do numbers lie?

2 years ago it was .127.
.160 was an anomaly for Melo but is pretty good, yes. Wins Produced, which I should have cited earlier, doesn't paint a good picture of Melo last year. I would not make a big deal one way or the other about only a one season sample.

Since he has been a Knick he has average 158.5. That's an anomaly? Isn't that a bit of a spin? Are thought that you were sold on Win Shares? At least you were.

That's roughly one full normal season's worth of data and, yes, based on his career it is an anomaly. You may need to check the definition of the word. WS are useful and I lazily cited only them but WP are likely the better stat. Berri provides far more data on their validity than James does for WS. Even if we generously use WS only and generously include only his games on the Knicks, it's still bad if the guy who's supposed to be your best player is at only .158.

sidsanders wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Historically New York has no appreciation for its star players until they are gone.

i would add: IF they can make the post season interesting.

not may are gonna look back on this bunch if they do not do well in the playoffs

Bonn1997 wrote:

sidsanders wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:Historically New York has no appreciation for its star players until they are gone.

i would add: IF they can make the post season interesting.

not may are gonna look back on this bunch if they do not do well in the playoffs

We appreciate them if the team meets or exceeds expectations.

I can agree with that. Ewing wasn't under-appreciated by the fans but by the media who had a personal vendetta against him. Then the casual knicks and basketball fans would read it and take the criticisms as facts. A lot of the same crap the media pulls today when they feel are at odds with a player. Did I ever mention how much I despise all New York Media. Print, TV, Radio..

mrKnickShot wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

KnicksFE wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:ahh... another "lets desperately quantify Melo's greatness despite the lack of winning" threads.

How about these #s since we are focused on individual accomplishments... count how many all NBA, all NBA defense, MVP votes... you know, the individual honors in the NBA. How about comparing those for Melo/Kobe/Wade? Should be interesting..... looking forward to the indepth analysis

fish, go look at some of my post.. I have been screaming this for weeks.... I know winning a ring is hard, not everyone can win a ring, but what about the individual accolades, I mean at some point, greatness is recognized.. it happened with Barkley when he won MVP, no ring, but many accolades..

I ask, show me one scoring title, one first team all NBA, one mvp, one anything that melo has won?

all I keep getting is.. "best pure scorer".. and again, i ask how do we come to that conclusion..and I get, because he can post up and score.... LOL.. go figure man..

Totally true, let me also add that offense is just half the game, Kobe and Wade are two of the best two way player of their generation, those guys were able to DOMINATE the game defensively as well as offensively during their prime years.

While Melo is one of the best versatile scorers in the NBA, his lack of defense and average passing skills, really limit what his team can do offensively and defensively with him in the lineup.

I just don’t see how mrKnickShot can even compare those guys with Melo, does he even follow the NBA, or just video clips of Melo in youtube?

Did I compare Melo and Wade? Try to read a post before making silly comments.

If you are not using Stats to compare Melo with other great players in someway, what exactly are you trying to point out here?

Read my post and you will see.

I was comparing Melo to PP, and Melo to Kobe offensively (by the numbers).

I did, my bad if I didn’t get the message properly, well anyway, if Melo is comparable to Kobe Bryant offensively base on the numbers, he still just half as good as Kobe because offence is just half the game.
Now is Melo comparable to PP offensively and defensively at the same age, probably yes.

mrKnickShot wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:ahh... another "lets desperately quantify Melo's greatness despite the lack of winning" threads.

How about these #s since we are focused on individual accomplishments... count how many all NBA, all NBA defense, MVP votes... you know, the individual honors in the NBA. How about comparing those for Melo/Kobe/Wade? Should be interesting..... looking forward to the indepth analysis

fish, go look at some of my post.. I have been screaming this for weeks.... I know winning a ring is hard, not everyone can win a ring, but what about the individual accolades, I mean at some point, greatness is recognized.. it happened with Barkley when he won MVP, no ring, but many accolades..

I ask, show me one scoring title, one first team all NBA, one mvp, one anything that melo has won?

all I keep getting is.. "best pure scorer".. and again, i ask how do we come to that conclusion..and I get, because he can post up and score.... LOL.. go figure man..

Barkley is so far in a different league, there is no reason to bring him into this.

I never ever referred to him as "best pure scorer" - thats silly.

I compared him to PP which is a valid comparison even if there are dissenting opinions.

are you talking about comparing the two in terms of scoring or overall game? we have already established that pierce is the better scorer if by better we mean more efficiently. i also think an argument can be made that he is the more versatile scorer too, even though everybody seems to claim that melo is the most versatile scorer. pierce is certainly a better 3-point shooter. that "elbow push-off/step back jumper" off the elbow is killer. melo does not have that. it takes great footwork to be versatile. bryant has developed some pretty terrific footwork but his decision making detracts from his game.

the main difference between the pierce and melo that i see, in fact, is footwork and faking. in both areas melo really doesn't compare favorably to pierce. and frankly the secret to pierce's game-- and to his longevity-- is the footwork and the ball and head fakes. pierce gets to wherever he wants to go and can draw fouls whenever he needs to. he also finishes beautifully around the basket. the other aspect of his superior footwork is this: it allows him to keep his head up on drives which leads to a very effective playmaking pass. he is a better playmaker and decision maker to bryant too. too bad he's a celtic, because on his game alone he deserves respect.

as with stat with hakeem, it may be too late for melo to develop better footwork and faking. if either of them show any improvement in any of these areas it will be a welcome surprise and really help the knicks come playoff time.

Over 36 minutes per game
24.7 PPG on 19.3 attempts = 1.28 pts per shot attempt
45.6 FG%
7.8 FT attempts per game.
2.6 3PT attempts 32.2%
3.1 assists to 3.0 TOs
6.3 rebounds

Pierce's first 9 seasons:

over 37 minutes per game
23.3 PPG 17.44 attempts = 1.33 pts per shot attempt
44% FG%
7.94 FT attempts per game
4.7 3PT attempts 36%
3.8 assists 3.0 TOs
5.27 rebounds

BTW Pierce years 10-14
19.34 Pts on 13.58 attempts = 1.42 Pts per attempt
46.66 FG%
6.04 FT attempts
4.06 3PT attempts 38.74%
3.8 assists to 2.56 TOs
5.14 rebounds

I'd like to see the higher FG% from Melo to go with his already superior rebounding #s. Would love to see him get better from downtown but would be happier with him increasing abusing dudes down low.

I might be biased here but I think Melo is WAY more gifted than Pierce. He should have been much more dominant than Pierce his first 9 seasons. I dunno if that's on Melo or George Karl. The hierarchy in the NBA should be

1. Lebron
2. Durant or Melo (yeah everyone's on Durant's nuts but he's not exactly a beast on D and Melo is better down low)

The only thing holding Melo back is himself.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:ahh... another "lets desperately quantify Melo's greatness despite the lack of winning" threads.

How about these #s since we are focused on individual accomplishments... count how many all NBA, all NBA defense, MVP votes... you know, the individual honors in the NBA. How about comparing those for Melo/Kobe/Wade? Should be interesting..... looking forward to the indepth analysis

fish, go look at some of my post.. I have been screaming this for weeks.... I know winning a ring is hard, not everyone can win a ring, but what about the individual accolades, I mean at some point, greatness is recognized.. it happened with Barkley when he won MVP, no ring, but many accolades..

I ask, show me one scoring title, one first team all NBA, one mvp, one anything that melo has won?

all I keep getting is.. "best pure scorer".. and again, i ask how do we come to that conclusion..and I get, because he can post up and score.... LOL.. go figure man..

Barkley is so far in a different league, there is no reason to bring him into this.

I never ever referred to him as "best pure scorer" - thats silly.

I compared him to PP which is a valid comparison even if there are dissenting opinions.

are you talking about comparing the two in terms of scoring or overall game? we have already established that pierce is the better scorer if by better we mean more efficiently. i also think an argument can be made that he is the more versatile scorer too, even though everybody seems to claim that melo is the most versatile scorer. pierce is certainly a better 3-point shooter. that "elbow push-off/step back jumper" off the elbow is killer. melo does not have that. it takes great footwork to be versatile. bryant has developed some pretty terrific footwork but his decision making detracts from his game.

the main difference between the pierce and melo that i see, in fact, is footwork and faking. in both areas melo really doesn't compare favorably to pierce. and frankly the secret to pierce's game-- and to his longevity-- is the footwork and the ball and head fakes. pierce gets to wherever he wants to go and can draw fouls whenever he needs to. he also finishes beautifully around the basket. the other aspect of his superior footwork is this: it allows him to keep his head up on drives which leads to a very effective playmaking pass. he is a better playmaker and decision maker to bryant too. too bad he's a celtic, because on his game alone he deserves respect.

as with stat with hakeem, it may be too late for melo to develop better footwork and faking. if either of them show any improvement in any of these areas it will be a welcome surprise and really help the knicks come playoff time.

good take. completely agree with you on the decision making/headfakes/footwork. that's something you see not by #s but just by watching the games. Pierce is super annoying at the end of games when everyone in the building knows he's gonna take that stupid step back from the elbow yet he always seems to get to that damn spot and hit the shot.

it seems like if you just put Pierce's brain into Melo's body Melo really could be considered not just a top scorer but one of the best players in the game.

yea, pretty much can be said about quite a few players actually... all of these guys are very talented but it seems to be the little things that seperate certain players..... pierce seems to have mastered all of the little things.. the fakes, the subtle push offs, etc... kobe also has mastered those things as well which is why he is still effective after all of these years....

this move kobe puts on fields was just nice.. watching his footwork and how he spins away from the defensive help to set up this shot.. it really is just nice to look at...

tkf wrote:

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mrKnickShot wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:ahh... another "lets desperately quantify Melo's greatness despite the lack of winning" threads.

How about these #s since we are focused on individual accomplishments... count how many all NBA, all NBA defense, MVP votes... you know, the individual honors in the NBA. How about comparing those for Melo/Kobe/Wade? Should be interesting..... looking forward to the indepth analysis

fish, go look at some of my post.. I have been screaming this for weeks.... I know winning a ring is hard, not everyone can win a ring, but what about the individual accolades, I mean at some point, greatness is recognized.. it happened with Barkley when he won MVP, no ring, but many accolades..

I ask, show me one scoring title, one first team all NBA, one mvp, one anything that melo has won?

all I keep getting is.. "best pure scorer".. and again, i ask how do we come to that conclusion..and I get, because he can post up and score.... LOL.. go figure man..

Barkley is so far in a different league, there is no reason to bring him into this.

I never ever referred to him as "best pure scorer" - thats silly.

I compared him to PP which is a valid comparison even if there are dissenting opinions.

are you talking about comparing the two in terms of scoring or overall game? we have already established that pierce is the better scorer if by better we mean more efficiently. i also think an argument can be made that he is the more versatile scorer too, even though everybody seems to claim that melo is the most versatile scorer. pierce is certainly a better 3-point shooter. that "elbow push-off/step back jumper" off the elbow is killer. melo does not have that. it takes great footwork to be versatile. bryant has developed some pretty terrific footwork but his decision making detracts from his game.

the main difference between the pierce and melo that i see, in fact, is footwork and faking. in both areas melo really doesn't compare favorably to pierce. and frankly the secret to pierce's game-- and to his longevity-- is the footwork and the ball and head fakes. pierce gets to wherever he wants to go and can draw fouls whenever he needs to. he also finishes beautifully around the basket. the other aspect of his superior footwork is this: it allows him to keep his head up on drives which leads to a very effective playmaking pass. he is a better playmaker and decision maker to bryant too. too bad he's a celtic, because on his game alone he deserves respect.

as with stat with hakeem, it may be too late for melo to develop better footwork and faking. if either of them show any improvement in any of these areas it will be a welcome surprise and really help the knicks come playoff time.

good take. completely agree with you on the decision making/headfakes/footwork. that's something you see not by #s but just by watching the games. Pierce is super annoying at the end of games when everyone in the building knows he's gonna take that stupid step back from the elbow yet he always seems to get to that damn spot and hit the shot.

it seems like if you just put Pierce's brain into Melo's body Melo really could be considered not just a top scorer but one of the best players in the game.

yea, pretty much can be said about quite a few players actually... all of these guys are very talented but it seems to be the little things that seperate certain players..... pierce seems to have mastered all of the little things.. the fakes, the subtle push offs, etc... kobe also has mastered those things as well which is why he is still effective after all of these years....

this move kobe puts on fields was just nice.. watching his footwork and how he spins away from the defensive help to set up this shot.. it really is just nice to look at...

Yeah I think Kobe was the first guy to start the Hakeem Olajuwon offseason thing.

I think it's fair to compare Kobe and Melo in that:

- ridiculous talent, can shoot and score down low too (obviously Kobe''s post game is more advanced but Melo is physically superior down low)

- they are often their own worst enemies. could probbaby use less 3s.
- they both could be elite defenders but take possessions off

Kobe is better at:

Long 2s: 36.9% Melo vs 41.4% Kobe. It's still dumb to me that Kobe takes more than 11 long 2s a game when he has frikkin Pau and Bynum but that's the Mamba for ya.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:Melo's current 9 year career averages:

Over 36 minutes per game
24.7 PPG on 19.3 attempts = 1.28 pts per shot attempt
45.6 FG%
7.8 FT attempts per game.
2.6 3PT attempts 32.2%
3.1 assists to 3.0 TOs
6.3 rebounds

Pierce's first 9 seasons:

over 37 minutes per game
23.3 PPG 17.44 attempts = 1.33 pts per shot attempt
44% FG%
7.94 FT attempts per game
4.7 3PT attempts 36%
3.8 assists 3.0 TOs
5.27 rebounds

BTW Pierce years 10-14
19.34 Pts on 13.58 attempts = 1.42 Pts per attempt
46.66 FG%
6.04 FT attempts
4.06 3PT attempts 38.74%
3.8 assists to 2.56 TOs
5.14 rebounds

I'd like to see the higher FG% from Melo to go with his already superior rebounding #s. Would love to see him get better from downtown but would be happier with him increasing abusing dudes down low.

I might be biased here but I think Melo is WAY more gifted than Pierce. He should have been much more dominant than Pierce his first 9 seasons. I dunno if that's on Melo or George Karl. The hierarchy in the NBA should be

1. Lebron
2. Durant or Melo (yeah everyone's on Durant's nuts but he's not exactly a beast on D and Melo is better down low)

The only thing holding Melo back is himself.

I agree with everything you said. Part of the problem though is that Melo doesn't seem to understand the problem. When Melo talks about being a true teammate who might even being willing to share some shots and drop his scoring average to 23PPG, it drives me crazy. Paul Pierce has made a hall-of-fame career for himself averaging 18 or 19 PPG in the KG/Allen years. If Melo would aim for 19 PPG, 50% shooting, and 5 to 6 assists, I'd be ecstatic. I think that's basically what MDA tried to get him to do though.